Moradon Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) The Kamui-worship makes sense in this game when you consider the traits about the character: - Royalty in both kingdoms - Noticeably different in appearance (pointed ears, white hair, can turn into a dragon) - Possesses legendary sword that literally chose Kamui as its owner - Has a peculiar history that makes him/her stand out from the other siblings (stolen from Hoshido, imprisoned in Nohr), giving both families reason to pay special attention to him/her Those are more than enough to achieve what is basically celebrity status. In addition the story portrays Kamui as someone who is easy to get along with, explaining why the neutral characters are so devoted to him. Obviously this is all meant to serve as wish-fulfillment, but it's wish-fulfillment that works as much as some people might dislike it. I know more than a few people that hated Frederick from Awakening simply because he had the audicity to be cautious of Robin, so it's no surprise to see it carry over to this game. It's also the same reason why we still have waifus/husbandos, marriage, children, and fanservice. It works. I mean, a change of pace by going back to no more self-inserts would be nice, but I can't see IS being too willing to change a forumla which is clearly working out for them. Edited July 9, 2015 by Moradon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abysswalker25 Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 But from what I have seen I'm not very impressed with Kamui at this point. He seems like the classic goody-two shoes character who can do no wrong and suffers based on the decisions of others rather than those made by himself. Azura and Corrin's supports on the Nohr path kind of help to read. C-A. Gives a good insight on how they feel about fighting against Hoshido and siding with Nohr. I recommend giving it a look. It shows just how bad the choice they made is eating away at them. I do note that Corrin seems more cynical on the Hoshido path rather than the Nohr one - which has their personality be more idealistic and naive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twylis Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 If you could instantaneously reset reality whenever you mess up on something, everyone would probably worship you too. (implicit fourth wall breaking is easier to stomach than terrible writing, yes) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Holy Elf Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 I generally dislike player worship, and am sad to see FE moving further in that direction. I actually didn't think Robin was too bad about this by video game standards, myself, but it sounds like Corrin definitely is. I don't need a game to talk up what an awesome person I am, thanks, and I need it even less to talk up what an awesome person the main character is when I don't identify with him/her (which is almost always these days; I'm way too old to identify with teenagers). I hate how many characters seem to be madly in love with the main character for little given reason (sigh, Camilla, you sounded so cool for a while...), how the game seems unwilling to let the main character be wrong, and how the main character can romance literally anyone of the opposite gender because what could be more unthinkable than someone who doesn't want to have a relationship with you? It obviously is popular to some extent as people have noted, which I find kind of sad, because I definitely think it limits the types of stories games can tell and helps keep the genre from being reaching the potential it could reach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abysswalker25 Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 I generally dislike player worship, and am sad to see FE moving further in that direction. I actually didn't think Robin was too bad about this by video game standards, myself, but it sounds like Corrin definitely is. I don't need a game to talk up what an awesome person I am, thanks, and I need it even less to talk up what an awesome person the main character is when I don't identify with him/her (which is almost always these days; I'm way too old to identify with teenagers). I hate how many characters seem to be madly in love with the main character for little given reason (sigh, Camilla, you sounded so cool for a while...), how the game seems unwilling to let the main character be wrong, and how the main character can romance literally anyone of the opposite gender because what could be more unthinkable than someone who doesn't want to have a relationship with you? It obviously is popular to some extent as people have noted, which I find kind of sad, because I definitely think it limits the types of stories games can tell and helps keep the genre from being reaching the potential it could reach. It would be more realistic I agree. But after Awakening and Fates have allowed you to marry whoever you want, I think it has kind of spoiled people. They could change it though from S-rank = Marriage to them ending up dating or something. Its a start! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedeathby2 Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 The sad thing is that generic cliche protagonists are very popular in Japan. Unlike in the west where protagonists can be hated and not always make the right choice are common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 It wouldn't be so bad if it was just other characters telling us that Takumi is wrong for disliking the avatar. But the reality is a lot worse than that. It isn't just individual characters, it's the very narrative of the Nohr route that seems to tell us that Takumi's attitude towards Kamui is wrong. His dislike of Kamui is treated as a source of dramatic dissonance that MUST be resolved for the story to reach its conclusion, and in a rather heavy-handed way at that. (Nohr spoilers from this point onwards) His resentment towards the player character, despite being entirely justified when you consider that the player betrayed Hoshido and then came back with an invasion army, is quite literally taken away from him by the writers and recast into the role of a villain - the final boss even - so the player can strike it down and feel good about it. Just to be on the safe side the writers even have a dead Takumi tell us that he actually really wants us to defeat his lingering hatred, just so there can be absolutely no mistaking the fact that his feelings towards Kamui are and were in fact wrong or even evil all along, and cleansing Takumi of these feelings should indebt him to us. It's a pretty disgusting move on the part of the writers, if you ask me. Really, I don't think there could be any better proof than this of the fact that disliking the player character without already being an obvious villain is a capital sin in the narrative of Fates and in the minds of its writers. We can't have anyone not liking us, regardless of how reasonable their motives might be. Non-worshippers must be either converted or killed, or both if they're especially bad offenders. And yeah, that bothers me. I knew this happened on the Nohr path, but somehow I'd never thought of it that way before. Reading your take on it makes me a little depressed. Oh, the wasted potential with this. ;/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 I'd like to see a less universally appreciated, less morally white protagonist in the future. Force them to do morally questionable things for the greater good and have characters judge them for it. I like what they did with Arthas in Warcraft 3 (before he completely went off the deep end). He takes increasingly extreme measures to fight the baddies and his allies call him out for his ruthlessness. Of course, we need our protagonist to be a force of good in the end, but the characters shouldn't immediately forgive him for his dickery. Some characters die in Fates if certain measures aren't taken so if in the next game the protagonist does something incredibly against their views, it'd be neat if certain characters would turn on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanima Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 I'd like to once again say how much this is endorsed by japanese culture. The japanese are fine with not having a lot of choices, they are fine with having a default love-interest every time (Aqua in this case, Sumia/Robin in Awakening etc.) and ultimately prefer their protagonists to be a standard goody goody. Western fandom is kind of the opposite. We like having a direct agency in the world, control every aspect of our characters personality, have multiple options for love-interests and like our protagonists to be a bit morally questionable. Fire Emblem is still a series primarily aimed at a japanese audience, the western fandom is still rather small by comparison. But this can change, once we reach more of an equilibrium. The first Pokémon games had lots of japanese weirdness in it, that got subsequently removed in the sequels once it was clear how big the western fandom was. Their need to cater to an international audience made them think about what we like over here. If Fire Emblem reaches even more popularity in the west, things might improve for us. It doesn't even need to be as popular as Pokémon (because let's be honest, it never will be), but at least so much that IntSys will feel the need to listen to what we desire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 I'm not sure that it's entirely a matter of culture, though. Or at least on my part I don't think it is. I personally don't care whether a game gives me lots of choices or no choices, many love interests or a canon love interest or none. I don't care whether the hero is a "goody-goody" or "edgy and jaded". Above all else, I want a good story and good characterization that I truly feel is realistic. Something that makes me care about the characters and see them in a realistic light. I don't want to go "that makes no sense, no human being would ever do or say that!" regarding the decisions they make. Poor characterization isn't limited by culture, either. I think it's entirely possible to make an avatar character who does end up being liked by everyone in the end, but without making the other characters' personalities revolve around the avatar or having the other characters make unrealistic choices just to cater to the player's "feelings". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanima Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 True, but I was referring to the general attitude displayed by the japanese fandom. Of course there are always people on both sides of the world who prefer things that most others around them don't. There are also japanese games that allow for more choice and customization, but I was talking about the general attitude. When you look at the style of most japanese rpgs versus western rpgs you can see a certain tendency for both. Fates takes it to the extreme as it does for most of its features, but it still comes from the basic cultural roots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alazen Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) I'd like to see a less universally appreciated, less morally white protagonist in the future. Force them to do morally questionable things for the greater good and have characters judge them for it. I like what they did with Arthas in Warcraft 3 (before he completely went off the deep end).Arthas didn't so much go off the deep end as show what he is in the dark. The manual even said Ner'zhul picked him for being torn between light and darkness.Anyway, let's be honest, Ike was also overly godly as a character. Frankly the post-Kaga Lords at large have been faulty. Edited July 9, 2015 by Alazen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamanoir Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Arthas didn't so much go off the deep end as show what he is in the dark. The manual even said Ner'zhul picked him for being torn between light and darkness. Anyway, let's be honest, Ike was also overly godly as a character. Frankly the post-Kaga Lords at large have been faulty. Leif was really well made. Sigurd was mostly a flawless hero (and Seliph as well), but it worked because of the story (at least for Sigurd, because of the tragedy.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Arthas didn't so much go off the deep end as show what he is in the dark. The manual even said Ner'zhul picked him for being torn between light and darkness. Anyway, let's be honest, Ike was also overly godly as a character. Frankly the post-Kaga Lords at large have been faulty. I meant him going crazy/villain mode after picking up Frostmourne. Up till that point he was a morally ambiguous character, something Fire Emblem needs more of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeonZ Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) True, but I was referring to the general attitude displayed by the japanese fandom. Of course there are always people on both sides of the world who prefer things that most others around them don't. There are also japanese games that allow for more choice and customization, but I was talking about the general attitude. When you look at the style of most japanese rpgs versus western rpgs you can see a certain tendency for both. Fates takes it to the extreme as it does for most of its features, but it still comes from the basic cultural roots. I don't think it's cultural roots, just different target audiences. Console gaming in Japan is seen as something for children, teenagers and otaku, not "normal" adults (who have way too long work hours most of the time), while in the West nowadays it's fairly common to primarily target adult audiences. Anyway Awakening actually sold more than twice as much internationally compared to Japan. However, I can't see them tailoring a FE completely for the West though, since that'd likely involve not only a more adult story, but also dumping the anime art style and such. Some aspects of FE are also held back due to the gameplay structure itself. For example, you aren't likely to get much tension among your own units, considering how it'd make no sense with the support system, and actually making a unit turn traitor or turn against the party would basically make it worthless gameplay-wise. Edited July 9, 2015 by NeonZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanima Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 I don't think it's cultural roots, just different target audiences. Console gaming in Japan is seen as something for children, teenagers and otaku, not "normal" adults (who have way too long work hours most of the time), while in the West nowadays it's fairly common to primarily target adult audiences. Anywaym Awakening actually sold more than twice as much internationally compared to Japan. However, I can't see them tailoring a FE completely for the West though, since that'd likely involve not only a more adult story, but also dumping the anime art style and such. Some aspects of FE are also held back due to the gameplay structure itself. For example, you aren't likely to get much tension among your own units, considering how it'd make no sense with the support system, and actually making a unit turn traitor or turn against the party would basically make it worhtless gameplay-wise. Okay so it's not only cultural roots. But there is certainly an element to it. Looking at popularity polls for games, the heroine (if she is the supporting protag) usually ranks in the top three in Japan. In Western fandoms that is usually not the case, where she is often seen as forced and "in the way". Japanese people are usually fine with a canon romance among optional ones. As for your other point: if the betrayal is a result of the players bad decisions it's completely justified, as you can correct your actions if you really want to keep that unit. If they can have conditional deaths, why not betrayal? it's not that different from a gameplay aspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWerdna Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) The other Hoshidan royals did say Takumi worries too much. Have Kamui choose Nohr for better dramatic effect. But it's not just him. Reflet was generally well-liked. Ike was outright a Stu (though part of the reason is that the games focused on him too much). A better example of a Fire Emblem protagonist that isn't universally-liked would be Chris. There are quite a few characters that took a while to warm up to Chris, and even by support level 3, they still kept their distance. And Chris is arguably a better person than Reflet or Kamui. Actually, all that Kamui love would have made sense if this is a Radiant Dawn-like story and Kamui is at Ike's position -- everyone fights, but no one really wants to and they just wanted to find a chance to strike back at the orchestrator, while Ike kept yelling at the other team to surrender. As far as other games go, I'd cite Golden Sun as an example. The protagonists unleased alchemy to save the world, but the rest of the world got different versions of the story and some hated their action. I agree with this. Lets face it, all of the Fire Emblem protagonists have been some degree of stu/sue. If anything Robin/Reflet was a partial exception due to being in a weird shared main protagonist spot with Chrom, allowing him/her to be less perfect special snowflake. If you really dig into his/her supports, Robin has some serious security issues, as seen from M!Robins tendency to be very passive and often get shut down in disputes by people talking over him and F!Robin's tendency to overreact and act overly agressive when faced with criticsm. Still has the whole "mostly everyone loves me for no reason" and "automatically tactics jesus", though Edited July 9, 2015 by TheWerdna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alazen Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 I agree with this. Lets face it, all of the Fire Emblem protagonists have been some degree of stu/sue. Leif wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Sun Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Wish-fulfillment is simply the entertainee getting what they want out out of an entertainment. That's all it is; nothing more to it. So the answer behind the Avatar being wish-fulfillment is yes and no depending on the individual's wishes in question. With that said, I'm completely exhausted with this thread. Have fun people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alazen Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 (edited) Wish-fulfillment goes in line with writing that, if not shoddy, is non-challenging. And entertainment is under no obligation to give the entertainee what he wants. Edited July 10, 2015 by Alazen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zachmac Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 (edited) Wish-fulfillment goes in line with shoddy writing. And entertainment is under no obligation to give the entertainee what he wants. Entertainment has all of the reason to give the entertainee what they want; after all, they want the entertainee to enjoy it enough to pay for it. It's just that some of us don't want shoddy writing as the cost for wish fulfillment. I don't like it either, but I understand why they do it, at least. Some of us don't like this type of writing, but I've met a ton of people who just eat it right up. Unfortunately, this is just what we're stuck with until they add some sort of compromise(like dialogue trees, as Loki mentioned on the page before). Edited July 10, 2015 by Zachmac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alazen Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Entertainment should convey what it has to convey, but that doesn't obligate a work to give the entertainee "what he wants". Especially considering how what is wanted shifts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paladin21 Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 There should be some mechanics in game that determine who would marry you depending on you customization options. For example, in Awakening to marry Cordelia you should be as close looking to Crhom as possible (blue-haired, adult build, similar caps orientation, sword favouring...). A kid-looking, blond mage wouldn't be so appealing for her. That would give players some frustration to have to get certain assets and/or looks they don't like in order to get the pairing they want so badly. The exception would be Tharja/Syalla like characters, they'll love and stalk you no matter what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeptuniasBeard Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Compare this to a game like Persona 4 (an utterly fantastic game but several elements are ludicrous) where you move into a small town in the middle of nowhere, get special powers, become the leader of a gang of supernatural teenagers who chase down a serial killer which the police is unable to find, solve family issues and other difficult topics just by listening to the people of the town and being able to date every single girl of your peers AT ONCE without any repercussions (unless you play Golden, in which one post game event forces you to choose who to spend Valentine's with, but like I said, the game is over at that point). I don't get why people constantly piss on Yu when most of this describes pretty much every protagonist in existence. But why not respond to this, I'm free today. He's the leader because he's the first one to get his powers (and the whole reason they could even enter the tv the first time) as well as being the strongest. His special power is not exclusive to him in canon. He's just the only one with the wild card in Inaba, like Makoto was the only one in his game, which makes sense, because the others only got their powers after they go in the tv. He always had the potential. So they're not "supernatural teenagers", they are normal teenagers who never would have gotten their powers if not for him. They can chase down the killer while the police can't because they are using a method the police would never reasonably even consider. They're not even that good at it, they mostly spin their wheels until the culprit slips up. The best they can do is stop there from being anymore victims. The police can't because, again, the culprit is using a supernatural method, and there's nothing they could do about it. Naoto and Dojima still do a pretty good job despite only seeing it from a normal perspective. It's not that all the girls know about each other either, you are literally cheating on them all. And yes, that's YOU I'm talking about. He could be monogamous, he could be gay/asexual, or simply just not be into any of them. It's the player that sluts it up. It's Persona 3 where you don't get a choice. If I recall correctly, the game even reminds you when that you already have a girlfriend, so you won't be a cheating douchebag, but YOU ignore it, that's your fault. The only decent criticism you have is that he solves everyones life problem. And even that's not completely unrealistic. You'd probably be amazed at how many people just want to vent their problems out at someone they barely know. I've been there a LOT. I may not be able to exactly fix whatever's going on in there lives, but they still just like to get it off their chests. A more expressive and intelligent person can at least give some sound advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 (edited) Leif was really well made. Sigurd was mostly a flawless hero (and Seliph as well), but it worked because of the story (at least for Sigurd, because of the tragedy.) Sigurd wasn't flawless lol, he was very reckless, naive and commanded by his emotions which led to his downfall. Edited July 10, 2015 by Jedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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