Specialized Classes vs. Versatile Classes

[Minischew]

A trend of optimization is that it’s usually better to have a specialized unit with disadvantages rather than a jack-of-all-kind. Given this attitude, how well do versatile classes perform? For instance, do you find that a Great Knight with adequacy in three weapon types is more useful, or that a Berserker with an S rank weapon is superior? Granted, I understand that all classes should be utilized according to their respective circumstances, which makes comparison quite difficult, but it would be nice to have a basic idea of which classes are more valued.

Going along this thread of thought, how do classes that attempt to balance Physical/Magical power perform (e.g. Revenant Knight)? Is it well-handled, or is the balance badly balanced and awkward? Fire Emblem has reverted to granting a 0 in Mag GR for purely physical classes, which “allows” more GR to be allocated in general. So would a balanced class upset this distribution?

(As a side note, I personally consider classes like Butler/Maid to be a balanced class as well, as the Staff is mainly dependent on Magic, while Hidden Weapons are dependent on Strength.)

[NekoKnight]

Some hybrid classes work better than others (and some characters are better at these classes). Maids/Butlers, for example can be effective support units but I feel like Joker is better than Felicia because his higher strength is more useful than magic when he doesn't use magic offensively (although there is a magic hidden weapon). I've enjoyed using Shura (based Bolt Axe) and War Priestess a lot.

As far as single weapon type users vs multiple weapon type users, personally I think single types are often better. Snipers and Holy Lancers are crit monsters and the diversity of weapons means they have plenty of options, even without other weapon types to use. Oboro is my go-to unit for fighting Berserkers and she only uses Lances. Multi-weapon users run into the problem of not being able to master their weapon rank. Have run training your Weapon Master when you need to get two weapons past E rank again (promoted classes should start with D rank weapons). Weapon Scrolls are a blessing, but in limited supply.

[Tamarsamar]

The Red Mage in me is heavily biased to more versatile classes, but there is legitimate value to them in a strategy game like this, as it is extremely valuable to attack the weapons triangle from multiple angles, or to be able to attack Def as well as Res.

For these reasons, its sheer maximum stats, and more, I believe Basara to be the best class in Fates (followed by Falcon Warrior). But that's just me.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Tamarsamar

[senketsu]

If you need triangle advantage you can always use reverse weapons, so that will never be a problem unless you don't have enough to go around.

I always go specialist(sword master mostly).

[astrophys]

Only like 1 or 2 reverse weapons of each type are available in the shop, according to the posted data. Also, reverse weapons do nothing with regard to hitting the other defensive stat.

[Ayra]

For playing through the game with little/no grinding (which means not hitting cap on most stats as well as a limited skill set), I found to be specialists to be much better in this game. I'm generally a big fan of well-rounded characters, but with a few exceptions they really don't seem to cut it in FE Fate during the late game. I've completed 3 Hard playthrough so far.

The thing, Nohr (from basically the start) and Hoshido (later on) both often have the following things:

1) Aggressive enemies that come at you, usually in waves. This includes both regular units and reinforcements.

2) Enemies that when you "pull one", you pull big groups instead

3) Overlapping threat zones where enemies can either converge on a single unit when trying to pull them, or dangerous coverage when you attack enemy formations

4) Enemies in Guard stance blocking chokepoints or part of the assault force making them much harder to remove quickly.

(Note: As of chapter 15, the third path has none of those things :()

What this means is that you need to have some units that can take heavy physical damage, or heavy magical damage, or a mix of both depending on the situation. You also needs to be killing enemies extremely efficiently: you will probably have multiple units on your team that would die in one hit, and you'll be completely swarmed if you can't get rid of enemies.

The "well-rounded" characters can't do any of that later on. They can't survive more than 2 hits, and they can't kill in 1 fight most of the enemies either, and can't kill the tankier enemy units in 2 hits (especially if in guard stance).

For example, I had an Oboro once that had great level ups and was the star of my team. Her level up became average later on (about what is expected based on her growths) and her goddess status started to melt more and more the further I got in the game. She couldn't tank well anymore (especially against mages) and she could not reliably 1-round enemies later on.

On the other end of the spectrum, a character like Kagerou fared better and better the further it got. While she had much fewer hit point and defense than Oboro, she actually served a greater purpose. Her very high resistance meant that she could tank multiple mages, and her good speed and incredible strength means she could 1-round most enemies. While her overall stat count was certainly lower than Oboro's, there were many situations where I could say "Okay, Kagerou is needed for this point", while there never a situation where Oboro was the optimal character to use.

There's a few exceptions like Camilla (she's well-rounded, but she's the best character I've seen at tanking mixed damage types alongside with every stats beside mag and luck being so darn high), but other well-rounded characters ala Odin, Pieri, Luna and Oboro all seemed to fare poorly late-game. There's also a few exceptions on the other side: Hana has amazing offense, but she has such low HP and defense that its not safe to even attack enemies with her as she gets 1-hit killed, and her damage is split in two hits so she often dies in the counter between her two attacks. She's the only "specialist" I've seen so far with this issue, though.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Ayra

[astrophys]

What level of growths in attacks or defenses would you say a character in a class (i.e., personal + class growths) needs to be successful, either for offensive/defensive purposes?

[Psyruby]

There is a heavy bias in this game to specialized units due to a couple reasons.

1) They have extra buffs just for being specialized. Things like +10 Avoid, +10 Crit matter a lot.

2) They get the best weapons in the game. S rank weapons are WAY stronger than A/B ranks, and having access to Brave weapons certainly doesn't hurt either.

3) Honestly, they have amazing distribution of stats compared to other classes. Berserker, Trueblade, Holy Lancer, Holy Bowman are honestly unfair with their stat distribution. Ninjas, Maids/Butlers, and Sorcerers have good stat distributions with very unique advantages.

4) All except Maids/Butlers and Sorcerer get their weapon's "faire" skill. This increases their damage even further than their stats and S rank weapons. Yes, the other classes could steal these, but why be another class when your original class can use this damage increase so much better?

However, some units have stuff to match these advantages. Generals, Basara, War Priestess, and Mountain Priest just have straight stat advantage. Generals are unbreakable walls, Basara's can attack with any option competently, War Priestess can both heal and use Magic Bows to great effect, and War Priestess can heal and do lots of damage with even the B or lower rank Lances. Managamar and Nine Tails have high stats and can manipulate their stats to fit the current battle with great unique skills.

On a final note. Most classes in this game aren't bad. It's just that some are exceptional, and a few are less good.

[CocoaGalaxy]

Aside from Maid/Butler/Strategist, every class gets access to at least 1 A Rank Weapon, which includes the "Brave" Weapon. Strategists can use the C Ranked Lightning anyway, but no such luck for Maid/Butler.

General largely beats Great Knight, Great Knight's only sizable advantage is the +2 Movement. Though this isn't exactly what's being said

It's still reasonably balanced, but a little bit more to the single weapon classes in my opinion.

[NekoKnight]

For example, I had an Oboro once that had great level ups and was the star of my team. Her level up became average later on (about what is expected based on her growths) and her goddess status started to melt more and more the further I got in the game. She couldn't tank well anymore (especially against mages) and she could not reliably 1-round enemies later on.

On the other end of the spectrum, a character like Kagerou fared better and better the further it got. While she had much fewer hit point and defense than Oboro, she actually served a greater purpose. Her very high resistance meant that she could tank multiple mages, and her good speed and incredible strength means she could 1-round most enemies. While her overall stat count was certainly lower than Oboro's, there were many situations where I could say "Okay, Kagerou is needed for this point", while there never a situation where Oboro was the optimal character to use.

Hm, we had some different experiences here. While Kagerou is definitely a great mage killer, she never had the speed to reliably double enemies (all my ninjas suffered from underwhelming speed, actually) so she was incredibly fragile and only effective at softening targets or sniping weakened enemies. Oboro on the other hand had great strength, speed and defense to be a powerful offensive and defensive unit. Even her resistance was high enough to not be easily daunted by mages.

[Othin]

The best type of class is anything that uses kunai.

[Arkine]

Specialized seems to be better imo. It also doesn't help that specialized classes gets extra buffs just for being specialized... This gets ridiculous for characters like Ryouma and Takumi because they essentially get buffs for using exclusively prf weapons which are both really strong to begin with.

[Minischew]

Ahaha, I see. I personally felt that the specialized classes would be more valuable, but as I hadn't played the game yet, I wasn't sure how valuable the flexibility and coverage provided by the versatile classes would be.

If specialized classes are generally more valuable, would you suggest reclassing some of the prepromoted units (e.g. Leo, Camilla, Felicia), or do you feel that they serve well in their balanced classes?

Edited July 17, 2015 by Minischew

[CocoaGalaxy]

I suppose Leo could do well as a reclassed Sorcerer with Nosferatu.

His defense might suffer a bit though, not sure about the change, but he loses 15% HP Growth and 10% Defense Growth in exchange for a 15% Magic Growth, and a few other changes.

Camilla depends on whether or not you care about her magic, and maybe the skills. Camilla gains 10% HP and Defense Growth, in exchange for 15% Magic and 15% Resistance growths.

Felicia would probably be best as a Strategist, though I think she's outclassed by Elise. You do lose out on the kunai debuffs though, for what it's worth.

Edited July 17, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[XeKr]

Effie!Foleo is the better Nosferatu tank with Defensive Formation, I think, though Leo can do it for a while. Leo has good enough bases to always do great damage regardless. He makes an interesting Dark Falcon option too, since you get like +6 spd.

For Camilla, it depends on if you like that high Res or slightly more in the physical stats.

Felicia is notable for getting Battle Command in Strategist very early. (or she can do other cool stuff like Marriage Seal into Puppeteer for very early, no grind, Copycat inheritance on Kanna.)

wrt to specialized units, I find the fact that reaver weapons are unlimited durability now does make a big difference.

[CocoaGalaxy]

For what it's worth, looking at the physical classes first, the Berserker class is pretty ridiculous, since 70 out of it's 85 class growths go to HP/STR/SPD.

That being said, that also means that it doesn't have much left for the rest, since it gives 0 DEF Growths

The Knight, Great Knight, General line also gives 20 or more to HP/STR/DEF each, but again, SPD growths is only 5 for Knight and Great Knight, 0 for General.

Believe it or not, Oni Savage is actually really good, it gives 20 to HP/STR/DEF and 10 to SPD

Fighter is basically a mini version of Berserker, and Hero gives a fairly balanced and useful spread. The rest, not so much.

E.G. Lance Fighter gives 15 HP/STR/SPD and 10 DEF, not bad by all standards.

White Blood gives 15 HP/STR/DEF and 10 SPD, etc

Edited July 17, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[Fuzzlekins]

Honestly, in my playthrough of Hoshido so far I've used versatile classes way more than specialists. It's mostly because I like their skills better, but also the specialists just seem more... boring? I don't know if that's the right word but I just find the more versatile classes to be more interesting, even if the units end up using primarily one weapon type anyway. (Like I made Shinonome a Basara for the skills but his magic stat is abysmal so he only uses lances.)

Also I don't think any of my units has reached higher than a B rank in any of their weapons so the higher grade weapons don't matter as much to me.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Fuzzlekins

[CocoaGalaxy]

It is true that attaining the higher weapon ranks seems really difficult without overuse or grinding.

Reaching A by endgame only happens if you use one

Regarding the skills thing, well it's hard to say, from a standpoint it depends on your supply of parallel seals.

Skills may also depend from player to player, but one thing is that the Level 15 skills tend to come quite late in the game, so they're probably less of an issue. The Level 5 skills actually are better a fair bit of the time, but again, different players value different skills, and the situation might call for different skills anyway.

(For example, Defense Seal, which is a Tier 1 skill, is probably more important than the Strength or Speed Seal from Weapon Master/Holy Lancer because Defense Seal is offensive. You could make an argument for Speed Seal but..I dunno.)