Fixing Fates story issues (spoilers)

[Thane]

Hang on a minute, aren't I the most negative and vocal when it comes to complaining about Fates' story? I demand a silly title!

[Zerosabers]

Thane of Complaintrun

[Alazen]

So I've been thinking of getting rid of the Hoshido Defend Nohr Reform shtick for portraying Fates' world with an atmosphere of corruption and bloodshed. Both kingdoms have serious native issues that in Hoshido's case just might impede the war effort. Even the 3rd Path will have "Build a new era from the ashes of the old nations".

Edited August 23, 2015 by Alazen

[Water Mage]

So I've been thinking of getting rid of the Hoshido Defend Nohr Reform shtick for portraying Fates' world with an atmosphere of corruption and bloodshed. Both kingdoms have serious native issues that in Hoshido's case just might impede the war effort. Even the 3rd Path will have "Build a new era from the ashes of the old nations".

That's a bit to edgy.

A serious story is nice, but too much "darkness" in a story might ruin it.

You might be surprised of how an optimistic story about a brave and kind hero who saves everyone might be much better and entertaining than a serious story about a cynical hero who kills his enemies without mercy.

Again, too much edginess might ruin the story.

You don't want another Shadow the Hedgehog, do you?

Edited August 24, 2015 by Water Mage

[Alazen]

Any hyped narrative in a series so driven by war should be noticeably more grim and/or grey than Fates. Just look at Starcraft and Warcraft 3 (which I should point out was the game that featured Arthas, the brutal human prince).

Edited August 24, 2015 by Alazen

[Water Mage]

Any narrative focused on war should be noticeably more grim and/or grey then Fates. Just look at Starcraft and Warcraft 3.

Not always.

War is hell, no doubt about that, but there's nothing wrong in having a positive attitude during war, and a story about kindness and justice helping achieve peace can make for a good war story. It's a matter of how you write it.

[Alazen]

Starcraft and Warcraft 3 still had leaders like Raynor, Thrall, and Jaina who did acts like working to free their fellows from demonic bondage or rebuild on another continent. Both games still had a grim atmosphere with leading characters like Arthas (a degenerate lackey) or Tyrande (brutal to outsiders) to keep them in check.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Alazen

[Damosel]

I'm sure I'll enjoy playing the game with the new mechanics once it comes out, but I'll definitely not be afraid to busts its narrative's balls. We could've had the theme of family (without incest) and international crisis, but nooooooooo.

Welcome to the "We are dissapointed so we make our own Fates!" express train. We hope you enjoy your ride.

No kidding, I'm pretty much labeling my fic an AU because I took a cleaver to take out the parts I didn't like about Fates's canon. I actually made a big ole Meta post for the differences on DW.

The biggest upfront difference: no characters or plot elements anchored in the 3rd Route- so no Hydra, no invisible monsters, no Kamui, no Aqua, or their moms. Also any characters that're from FE13, not appearing in this fic.

And keep us posted. We at Fire Emblem Plot Complainers Incorporated care about your opinions.

It is already so! Two chapters posted so far. I actually have a thread up on this site for it.

But to contribute more to the thread's subject- a peak into my worldbuilding. (a wall of text, so I spoilered it)

I was having MAJOR ISSUES trying to come up with plot ideas for Hoshido, cause "ideallic utopia" is about as dull as one can get. So I reasearched ancient Japan a bit looking for ideas, and one major thing that stuck out to me was the problem of ronin. Ronin only really became a major widespread problem after the Shogunate passed laws enacting a caste sytstem which changed three major things:
1) people could no longer move between occupations - meaning during the lulls where there was no war, or if a samurai lost their master, they could no longer choose to become a farmer or merchant. They HAD to stay a samurai, and it's during this era Ronin gained the reputation as thungs and bandits- cause without a master and a steady stipend they usually were forced to take on mercenary work to survive.

2) warriors could not change alliances and swear fealty on their own initiative - they were required to get the premission of their former master in order to switch, which tended to be hard if their daimyo was dead or the Shogun seized their lands and stripped them of rank. Let's just say a LOT of ronin came to be just after the caste laws were passed.
3) marriage and inheritance became more restricted - you could only marry within your class and a lot more requirements were added on the matter of inheritance. The latter looks like a ploy by the Shogun to try and control the feudal lords, ensure they remained loyal.

With the above in mind, I applied it to Hoshido and...it can work well. Hoshido's focused on peace, but we know it has a standing army in addition to multiple characters who come from long lines of ninjas or samurai. If they did actually stop fighting with Nohr, that'd be a lot of soldiers out of work- and if Hoshido happened to have caste laws, they'd get the problem of ronin- then the classic FE issue of bandits. In my AU the laws were passed in the past during the long period of war with Nohr, when Fuuma switched over and became an ally of Nohr. But now there are feudal lords who are traditionalist and see the current culture as perfect and the peak for Hoshido, thus want to change nothing. Also under those laws certain families have risen to power within their own caste- such as merchants, and you bet there'd be monopolies, control of the market, and abuse of power going on- and they wouldn't want things to change.

So Hoshido's conflict would be very domestic, issues with nationalism and Ryouma seeking to repeal the caste laws, and push for policies to address the issues they've caused. Not 100% exciting battles (except against traitors and bandits), but somebody's gotta do the paperwork.

With Nohr it's less coming up with problems (the game throws plenty out there) and more with believable solutions. In worldbuilding terms I've definite gone away from the Moria canon, and am taking inspiration from Thracia and Russia- hard living conditions, a lot of people to feed, crappy weather. Also it'd be great if the tyrant king wasn't a goo-monster.

The spoilered ideas all work better in a novel-like narrative rather than a game- which is the context I thought it up in, so take it with a grain of salt. Though still game would improve with less Gooran.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Damosel

[Azz]

I am really liking the changes you have made.Definitely gonna read.Do you by any chance have any plans for other characters that you could share with us?

[Ryo]

Lol you removed Kamui? XDD

[NekoKnight]

I'm sure I'll enjoy playing the game with the new mechanics once it comes out, but I'll definitely not be afraid to busts its narrative's balls. We could've had the theme of family (without incest) and international crisis, but nooooooooo.

No kidding, I'm pretty much labeling my fic an AU because I took a cleaver to take out the parts I didn't like about Fates's canon. I actually made a big ole Meta post for the differences on DW.

The biggest upfront difference: no characters or plot elements anchored in the 3rd Route- so no Hydra, no invisible monsters, no Kamui, no Aqua, or their moms. Also any characters that're from FE13, not appearing in this fic.

It is already so! Two chapters posted so far. I actually have a thread up on this site for it.

But to contribute more to the thread's subject- a peak into my worldbuilding. (a wall of text, so I spoilered it)

I was having MAJOR ISSUES trying to come up with plot ideas for Hoshido, cause "ideallic utopia" is about as dull as one can get. So I reasearched ancient Japan a bit looking for ideas, and one major thing that stuck out to me was the problem of ronin. Ronin only really became a major widespread problem after the Shogunate passed laws enacting a caste sytstem which changed three major things:

1) people could no longer move between occupations - meaning during the lulls where there was no war, or if a samurai lost their master, they could no longer choose to become a farmer or merchant. They HAD to stay a samurai, and it's during this era Ronin gained the reputation as thungs and bandits- cause without a master and a steady stipend they usually were forced to take on mercenary work to survive.

2) warriors could not change alliances and swear fealty on their own initiative - they were required to get the premission of their former master in order to switch, which tended to be hard if their daimyo was dead or the Shogun seized their lands and stripped them of rank. Let's just say a LOT of ronin came to be just after the caste laws were passed.

3) marriage and inheritance became more restricted - you could only marry within your class and a lot more requirements were added on the matter of inheritance. The latter looks like a ploy by the Shogun to try and control the feudal lords, ensure they remained loyal.

With the above in mind, I applied it to Hoshido and...it can work well. Hoshido's focused on peace, but we know it has a standing army in addition to multiple characters who come from long lines of ninjas or samurai. If they did actually stop fighting with Nohr, that'd be a lot of soldiers out of work- and if Hoshido happened to have caste laws, they'd get the problem of ronin- then the classic FE issue of bandits. In my AU the laws were passed in the past during the long period of war with Nohr, when Fuuma switched over and became an ally of Nohr. But now there are feudal lords who are traditionalist and see the current culture as perfect and the peak for Hoshido, thus want to change nothing. Also under those laws certain families have risen to power within their own caste- such as merchants, and you bet there'd be monopolies, control of the market, and abuse of power going on- and they wouldn't want things to change.

So Hoshido's conflict would be very domestic, issues with nationalism and Ryouma seeking to repeal the caste laws, and push for policies to address the issues they've caused. Not 100% exciting battles (except against traitors and bandits), but somebody's gotta do the paperwork.

With Nohr it's less coming up with problems (the game throws plenty out there) and more with believable solutions. In worldbuilding terms I've definite gone away from the Moria canon, and am taking inspiration from Thracia and Russia- hard living conditions, a lot of people to feed, crappy weather. Also it'd be great if the tyrant king wasn't a goo-monster.

The spoilered ideas all work better in a novel-like narrative rather than a game- which is the context I thought it up in, so take it with a grain of salt. Though still game would improve with less Gooran.

Interesting ideas, I look forward to seeing where it goes.

[Damosel]

It's like Kamui was never there at all (and still I can find plenty of reasons Nohr and Hoshido want to stab each other). It's amazing how much the character's motivations and roles are freed up, when they no longer have to obsess on how super special awesome Kamui is.

I am really liking the changes you have made.Definitely gonna read.Do you by any chance have any plans for other characters that you could share with us?

Cool, I'd love to know which ones you like! (and I'll refrain from spazzing out over potential readers)

Other characters... Well all the royal kids play prominent roles and with the current fic get most of the spotlight as politics and plot goes down. But I'm guessing you don't mean them?

Quite a few characters have been shifted around because of lack of Kamui and the removal of the FE13 crew. Nyx, Charolette, Joker, and Gunter are all retainers for Nohr royalty. Cyrus is Gunter's protege so he's practically a retainer. Hoshido's retainers remain the same (along with not-FE13 Nohr ones), but Mozume is Hinoka's personal maid for reasons.

As for plans... Well I mostly made the verse to explore what life might be like in Nohr or Hoshido, there'll be plenty of things the support cast will be able to do that royalty can't. (sorry if I'm being vague, it's just at this point it's most fic scenes I have planned out, so spoilers).

Edited August 24, 2015 by Damosel

[Azz]

It's like Kamui was never there at all (and still I can find plenty of reasons Nohr and Hoshido want to stab each other). It's amazing how much the character's motivations and roles are freed up, when they no longer have to obsess on how super special awesome Kamui is.

Cool, I'd love to know which ones you like! (and I'll refrain from spazzing out over potential readers)

Other characters... Well all the royal kids play prominent roles and with the current fic get most of the spotlight as politics and plot goes down. But I'm guessing you don't mean them?

Quite a few characters have been shifted around because of lack of Kamui and the removal of the FE13 crew. Nyx, Charolette, Joker, and Gunter are all retainers for Nohr royalty. Cyrus is Gunter's protege so he's practically a retainer. Hoshido's retainers remain the same (along with not-FE13 Nohr ones), but Mozume is Hinoka's personal maid for reasons.

As for plans... Well I mostly made the verse to explore what life might be like in Nohr or Hoshido, there'll be plenty of things the support cast will be able to do that royalty can't. (sorry if I'm beign vague, it's just at this point it's most fic scenes I have planned out, so spoilers).

The vagueness is fine(I mean I don't want to be spoiled like how I was spoiled with Fates).Really, I was mainly wanting to see the new retainers since I saw you removed the FE13 characters.I also like the addition of Mozume as a more main-side character then an optional one if you get what I mean.

Anyways, after reading your 2 chapters I have to say they were written quite well and I can't wait to see what you have in store for the future.

[Ryo]

It's amazing how much the character's motivations and roles are freed up, when they no longer have to obsess on how super special awesome Kamui is.

Yeah I definitely agree with this.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Ryo

[FrostyFireMage]

I've heard the story is more tolerable if you actually make an effort to unlock support conversations and understand the character's motivations.

According to some the story is more character driven than others in the series.

Edited August 24, 2015 by FrostyFireMage

[Alazen]

I'll wait to see how Fates is more character driven than the Tellius games or the GBA games. And how the supports address issues such as the lack of relevance for the royal sisters, Aqua's amazing skill at planning, etc.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Alazen

[Taka-kun]

I was having MAJOR ISSUES trying to come up with plot ideas for Hoshido, cause "ideallic utopia" is about as dull as one can get. So I reasearched ancient Japan a bit looking for ideas, and one major thing that stuck out to me was the problem of ronin. Ronin only really became a major widespread problem after the Shogunate passed laws enacting a caste sytstem which changed three major things:

1) people could no longer move between occupations - meaning during the lulls where there was no war, or if a samurai lost their master, they could no longer choose to become a farmer or merchant. They HAD to stay a samurai, and it's during this era Ronin gained the reputation as thungs and bandits- cause without a master and a steady stipend they usually were forced to take on mercenary work to survive.

2) warriors could not change alliances and swear fealty on their own initiative - they were required to get the premission of their former master in order to switch, which tended to be hard if their daimyo was dead or the Shogun seized their lands and stripped them of rank. Let's just say a LOT of ronin came to be just after the caste laws were passed.

3) marriage and inheritance became more restricted - you could only marry within your class and a lot more requirements were added on the matter of inheritance. The latter looks like a ploy by the Shogun to try and control the feudal lords, ensure they remained loyal.

With the above in mind, I applied it to Hoshido and...it can work well. Hoshido's focused on peace, but we know it has a standing army in addition to multiple characters who come from long lines of ninjas or samurai. If they did actually stop fighting with Nohr, that'd be a lot of soldiers out of work- and if Hoshido happened to have caste laws, they'd get the problem of ronin- then the classic FE issue of bandits. In my AU the laws were passed in the past during the long period of war with Nohr, when Fuuma switched over and became an ally of Nohr. But now there are feudal lords who are traditionalist and see the current culture as perfect and the peak for Hoshido, thus want to change nothing. Also under those laws certain families have risen to power within their own caste- such as merchants, and you bet there'd be monopolies, control of the market, and abuse of power going on- and they wouldn't want things to change.

So Hoshido's conflict would be very domestic, issues with nationalism and Ryouma seeking to repeal the caste laws, and push for policies to address the issues they've caused. Not 100% exciting battles (except against traitors and bandits), but somebody's gotta do the paperwork.

With Nohr it's less coming up with problems (the game throws plenty out there) and more with believable solutions. In worldbuilding terms I've definite gone away from the Moria canon, and am taking inspiration from Thracia and Russia- hard living conditions, a lot of people to feed, crappy weather. Also it'd be great if the tyrant king wasn't a goo-monster.

The spoilered ideas all work better in a novel-like narrative rather than a game- which is the context I thought it up in, so take it with a grain of salt. Though still game would improve with less Gooran.

That is some very good ideas there that could work well in the setting. As you might know, a number of us here are also in the process of our own fics which will never get released, so I hope you don't mind if we take cues from your worldbuilding.

[Yari]

That is some very good ideas there that could work well in the setting. As you might know, a number of us here are also in the process of our own fics which will never get released, so I hope you don't mind if we take cues from your worldbuilding.

Mine will get released! In two, four decades. Damosel's ideas are very good and I as the CEO of FEPC inc will take cues from it for my own world building that besides the changes I'm doing in certain characters (screw you gimmicky and bland boring personalities!) is something that is quite dificult to do sometimes. I came up with this for the royal families:

Izumi (Femui): The twin sister of Tatsuo. She's the second princess of the Hoshidan royal family raised by the Nohrian royal family. She can be ruthless and cruel but has a strong sense of morality and is protective of her loved ones. She sides with Hoshido for being the moraly correct choice. She is chosen by Hoshido's legendary sword Gami (but she used to be an axe fighter) and has misterious dragon powers.

Tatsuo (Mamui): The twin brother of Izumi. He's the second prince of the Hoshidan royal family raised by the Nohrian royal family. He is intelligent and kind but a bit insecure and acts like a pushover at times. He sides with Nohr to protect his family and friends striving for a war with the less victims possible. He is chosen by the Nohrian legendary sword Yato (but he used to be a lancer) and has misterious dragon powers.

Garon: The king of Nohr, he's not controlled by Hydra and is a very good father to his children (Marx, Camilla, Leon and Elise) even if he can ruthless when it comes to his enemies.

Ektrina: The deceased first wife of Garon and mother of Marx, Camilla, Leon and Elise. She died when giving birth to Elise.

Shemmei:The deceased second wife of Garon, mother of Aqua and born in Touma. She died months before Aqua's kidnapping. She's Mikoto's older sister.

Mikoto: The queen of Hoshido born in Touma, she's silk hidding steel. Kind and gentle to her loved ones but ruthless and pagmatic when she has to be. Mother of Hinoka, Izumi, Tatsuo, Takumi and Sakura. She's Shemmei's younger sister.

Sumeragi: The deceased king of Hoshido. He was a strong and kind man, the father of the Hoshidan siblings (or at least most of them). He died when Izumi and Tatsuo where five years.

Ikona: The deceased first wife of Sumeragi. She is the mother of Ryoma and she died sometime before is fifth birthday.

Ryoma: The oldest prince of Hoshido. He is a kind and understanding young man but also stuborn and very hot headded. He adores his siblings and is very protective of them but also likes to tease them. He inherited the Raijin Katana from Sumeragi.

Hinoka: The oldest princess of Hoshido. She is a very caring "lady" with strong ambitions. She's aso a bit brash and rude, most of the time she doesn't mean to be rude it's just part of her. She has the royal weapon Arashi Naginata.

Takumi: The youngest prince of Hoshido. He's a bit suspicious of people and can be quite a jerk. But behind this atitude there's a sweet boy that's a bit insecure about himself and works hard to do the best he can. He has the royal weapon Fuujin Yumi.

Sakura: The youngest princess of Hoshido. She's shy and quiet but very sweet and mature for her age. She inherited her mother's silk hidding steel personality so she knows how to assert herself. She gets the Kokoro Baton later in the story.

Marx: The oldest prince of Nohr. He is somewhat cold and distand but cares deeply for his family and country. His loyalty to Nohr is strong and he would turn against his father to protect it unlike in game and is very serious. He owns the sword Siefried.

Camilla: The oldest princess of Nohr. She is motherly and enthusiastic, but her strong protective streak can make her quite scary. Despise everything she's knows she has to fight against Izumi and won't be afraid to do it. She has the royal Nohrian axe Mjölnir it's the magical axe of Thor not a tome!

Aqua: The second princess of Nohr raised in Hoshido. She's the daughter of Shemmei and is a very quiet girl with a love for singing. She is very honest and sometimes comes off as blunt but tries her best to be nice to people especially her Hoshidan family. She has the lance Uta.

Leon: The youngest prince of Nohr. He is very intelligent and likes studying. He can be very cruel when it comes to enemies and is sometimes difficult to talk with, however he still gets along well with his siblings. He has the royal Nohrian tome Brunnhilde.

Elise: The youngest princess of Nohr. She is childlish and sweet because she was over protected by her father and siblings. She is not very fond of fighting but learns how to for the safety of her loved ones. She gets the Runestaff later in the story.

I hope this shows some of the changes I'm doing to the royal families and some of the siblings personalities in my fic. Any opinions or questions? The reason Izumi and Tatsuo used to wield other weapons besides swords is to explain the battle animations. And my God this took a lot of time to write!

Edited August 24, 2015 by Yari

[Alazen]

Alright, here's the current cut list:

Surely Cut:

-The Awakening 2nd Gen characters.

-Fates' 2nd Gen

-Fake Garon

-Hate Monster Takumi

Cut if not seriously reworked:

-Aqua

-Hydra

-Lilith

-Ganz and/or MacBeth

-Hinoka

-Camilla

Possibly Consolidated:

-Sakura and Elise

-Flora and Felicia

Any suggestions?

Edited August 24, 2015 by Alazen

[Taka-kun]

Alright, here's the current cut list:

Surely Cut:

-The Awakening 2nd Gen characters.

-Fates' 2nd Gen

-Fake Garon

-Hate Monster Takumi

Cut if not seriously reworked:

-Aqua

-Hydra

-Lilith

-Ganz and/or MacBeth

-Hinoka

-Camilla

Possibly Consolidated:

-Sakura and Elise

-Flora and Felicia

Any suggestions?

How did you plan on consolidating Sakura and Elise?

[Alazen]

By merging them into one little sister character. I'm convinced one of the issues with the royal siblings is that there are so many of them. This goes in line with how the brothers are noticeably more integrated into the narrative than the sisters.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Alazen

[Azz]

By merging them into one little sister character. I'm convinced one of the issues with the royal siblings is that there are so many of them yet the brothers are noticeably more integrated into the narrative than the sisters.

Yeah, I agree with this.Though, like I have said in a previous post, I think each side should have one sister and one brother.One side has the sister be older and brother younger and vice versa.

[Alazen]

I'm thinking of Ryoma merging with Hinoka into Kamui's elder sister (having a non-recruitable sister on the enemy side has been done less than brothers, also it goes with Mikoto as the hereditary empress), there still being Takumi, and Elise fusing with Sakura.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Alazen

[Yari]

I want to know how you plan to fuse Elise and Sakura's personality. Elise is peppy, friendly and childlish while Sakura is shy, quiet and seems to be more mature than Elise. How do you plan to join their personalities?

[Thane]

Any hyped narrative in a series so driven by war should be noticeably more grim and/or grey than Fates. Just look at Starcraft and Warcraft 3 (which I should point out was the game that featured Arthas, the brutal human prince).

There are a number of things I'd like to point out here:

First of all, a darker narrative is not always better. I know more than a few pieces of fiction of different genres and over different media which have been ruined because the author/writer thought that a sudden dark twist would improve the quality of the work because of the shock value, but it came across as forced. Contrary to popular belief, a dark story doesn't necessarily involve a bunch of deaths or try to shove down its dark and edgy themes down the reader/player/viewer's throat - the most memorable dark stories I know of are rather subtle and make the consumer think and sympathize, rather than try to shock them. I know you didn't say your opinion of a dark story is any different from my own, but that's the impression I got when you said it should be "noticeably more grim". I will agree that most stories could use a bit more gray in how they depict their wars though.

Secondly, Starcraft and Warcraft are hardly pinnacles of writing. Blizzard's writing is rarely above average, nor is it the reason for their fame and success; they're rather like Intelligent Systems in that regard. It's entertaining and occasionally exciting, but hardly particularly noteworthy, and especially not very dark or thought-provoking. Warcraft III does include some characters with personality, but once again, they're not very complex. But hey, at least they could handle an invasion of a peaceful nation properly, so I guess that's more than could be said about Intelligent Systems.

I will say that the (old) "Legend of Stalvan" quest chain in World of Warcraft was a good example of dark writing coming from Blizzard, and I will also admit that Prince Kael'thas' plight was portrayed very well in The Frozen Throne (if we ignore the plot device in the shape of Grand Marshal Garithos, who was ONLY there to drive them away) and gave weight to the destruction of Quel'thalas. Unfortunately, that was all thrown to the wind in The Burning Crusade, and the writing has declined VERY sharply in quality after the death of The Lich King.

It's amazing how much the character's motivations and roles are freed up, when they no longer have to obsess on how super special awesome Kamui is.

This should be this site's Fates subforum description.

Also, someone here has been watching Yugioh Abridged. Love that show.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Thane