Fixing Fates story issues (spoilers)

[Alazen]

I just find it hard to believe that the game's story is worse than AWAKENINGS (aka the game where the terrible ruler Emmeryn is viewed as a martyr by everyone and the main villains are a discount Disney villain and an evul dragon who wants to destroy the world because lol wynaut).

Are you pretending Mikoto isn't more glorified than Garon and Fates' dastardly bad men (Hydra, Ganz, Macbeth, Fake Garon) are noticeably better as characters? What redeeming qualities do Ganz and Macbeth have?

[JupiterKnight]

And in the end the one I'm more likely to get is Nohr anyways.

Gameplay only being a partial factor.

[Yari]

And in the end the one I'm more likely to get is Nohr anyways.

Gameplay only being a partial factor.

I don't believe I'll be capable of playing Norh without skipping the story parts because I've seen translations and that story is giving me a headache. The characters are good so I'll try it out anyway.

I'm having a hard time writing my Nohr outline because the story is just so... lacking. They don't explain stuff, characters act like idiots, Kamui is way too naive and Garon is so obviously evil it hurts.

[The DanMan]

I'm having a hard time writing my Nohr outline because the story is just so... lacking. They don't explain stuff, characters act like idiots, Kamui is way too naive and Garon is so obviously evil it hurts.

Really, I'd suggest throwing out virtually everything besides the basic premise and starting (mostly) from scratch.

[Sunwoo]

If you want to rewrite Nohr, that's the only thing you can do. Throw out everything. Just write your own retelling of Nohr borrowing none of the story elements they actually used with only the basic premise. My idea for a Nohr rewrite basically has Nohr defeat Hoshido earlier, and the results of that are what spark the actual revolution. What we actually got for Nohr is too shit to be saved.

[Thane]

If you want to rewrite Nohr, that's the only thing you can do. Throw out everything. Just write your own retelling of Nohr borrowing none of the story elements they actually used with only the basic premise. My idea for a Nohr rewrite basically has Nohr defeat Hoshido earlier, and the results of that are what spark the actual revolution. What we actually got for Nohr is too shit to be saved.

Even then, Garon needs a personality and the siblings a reason for going through with invading Hoshido, especially Kamui. But I agree, Hoshido shouldn't have been the end game; it's especially strange considering you don't actually do anything before the invasion.

[Sunwoo]

Even then, Garon needs a personality and the siblings a reason for going through with invading Hoshido, especially Kamui. But I agree, Hoshido shouldn't have been the end game; it's especially strange considering you don't actually do anything before the invasion.

Wasn't an early theory for Garon invading Hoshido something along the lines of "Nohr's climate is shit, Hoshido is prosperous, Garon invaded to secure better lands for his people"? That's probably all the reasons that Garon and the Nohr siblings at least probably need. I imagine Garon as a harsh and intimidating man but still a good king who puts his country's needs first -- even if it is to the detriment of other countries. Iago and Ganz would also have to actually DO SOMETHING other than just kill people Kamui is too chicken to kill, such as how Iago can be the one who manipulated the glory-seeking Garon into launching a full-out invasion and into killing the defeated Hoshido siblings once Hoshido is defeated.

The Nohr siblings would also have to be reasonable as to what is okay and what is not okay. Invading Hoshido because their duty is to Nohr, and the invasion is to help Nohr survive? They can at least justify that to themselves. Kamui could tell himself that once the war was over everything would be fine and his Hoshido siblings would be alive. But start killing them off? Then at that point Garon has crossed the line because the killing serves no purpose.

I dunno, just some 5 am brain ideas.

[Thane]

Wasn't an early theory for Garon invading Hoshido something along the lines of "Nohr's climate is shit, Hoshido is prosperous, Garon invaded to secure better lands for his people"? That's probably all the reasons that Garon and the Nohr siblings at least probably need. I imagine Garon as a harsh and intimidating man but still a good king who puts his country's needs first -- even if it is to the detriment of other countries. Iago and Ganz would also have to actually DO SOMETHING other than just kill people Kamui is too chicken to kill, such as how Iago can be the one who manipulated the glory-seeking Garon into launching a full-out invasion and into killing the defeated Hoshido siblings once Hoshido is defeated.

The Nohr siblings would also have to be reasonable as to what is okay and what is not okay. Invading Hoshido because their duty is to Nohr, and the invasion is to help Nohr survive? They can at least justify that to themselves. Kamui could tell himself that once the war was over everything would be fine and his Hoshido siblings would be alive. But start killing them off? Then at that point Garon has crossed the line because the killing serves no purpose.

I dunno, just some 5 am brain ideas.

Indeed, people thought he'd pull a Ganondorf from Wind Waker, who changed basically the entire fanbase attitude towards him in a 30 second incredibly well-written speech. However, since Ryouma says he'll just give Nohr food after the war in Birthright, I sort of wonder what kind of diplomatic ties they had before everything began...like, it doesn't sound exactly hard to get anything from Hoshido, considering they have everything they need in abundance and seem more than willing to share.

Dude, go to sleep! Don't make me lecture you on how important those eight hours a day are.

[Sunwoo]

Indeed, people thought he'd pull a Ganondorf from Wind Waker, who changed basically the entire fanbase attitude towards him in a 30 second incredibly well-written speech. However, since Ryouma says he'll just give Nohr food after the war in Birthright, I sort of wonder what kind of diplomatic ties they had before everything began...like, it doesn't sound exactly hard to get anything from Hoshido, considering they have everything they need in abundance and seem more than willing to share.

Yeah, which is why I think there needs to be some change for Hoshido (the country, if not the route) at least. Maybe the Hoshido of old, up until either Sumeragi era or even throughout it, was heavily isolationist and wouldn't have made such negotiations with Nohr. If that was the case, then it's not like they could've negotiated with Hoshido prior, and they'd have no reason to believe that the future king was any different than his isolationist ancestors.

Dude, go to sleep! Don't make me lecture you on how important those eight hours a day are.

I'm going, I'm going! XD

[Ryo]

I think the most difficult part is how to convincingly find a way to guide the Nohrian siblings into opposing/killing Garon in the end, especially Marx, if you still stick to that plot.

[Yari]

I think the most difficult part is how to convincingly find a way to guide the Nohrian siblings into opposing/killing Garon in the end, especially Marx, if you still stick to that plot.

I know were I want to go with the characters and plot the problem is how to get there. It can't feel rushed, forced and have either none or miminal plot holes.

[Abysswalker25]

Would've prefered what I heard about Garon before a bunch of information rolled in. A tough ruler with underhanded methods, but is simply looking out for his own country at the cost of others due to how dire things have gotten in Nohr. It would've really made him feel like a villain, but one with a legitimate reasoning for his actions. But, anything you make will likely be better than "BUAHAHAHAHA! IM EVIL!"

Edited August 21, 2015 by Abysswalker25

[Nanima]

Like what was suggested before, I could see the Hoshido invasion still happening (resource scarcity and Hoshidan isolationism as Garon's justifications) but then ending by chapter 15 with all the Hoshido royals captured. So far so good, Nohr finally gets more resources and Hoshido is basically absorbed. Despite the royals being captive, the common folks in Hoshido is still resisting and stages multiple attempts to free them. As a result Garon orders for their execution.

The Nohrian siblings are very much not down with this, even if they can sort of understand the point (at least Marx and Leon do) and try to convince Garon to be merciful, especially for Sakura who seems the least likely to become an effective rebel leader. This doesn't work, so Kamui tries to free them him/herself (with everyone minus Marx helping), but they get caught and the Hoshidan's are executed. Despite this Garon decides to pardon the siblings.. except Kamui who has now evidently proven a traitor (in this, Garon still loves his kids, but Kamui was never more than a war trophy). This is however the last straw for even Marx and they all turn on Garon.

From here on it could become an outright civil war, where you gather more and more allies and dismantle the war mongering nobility (which should include Ganz and Iago) before storming the capital.

Feel free to point out any logic flaws in this.

[Azz]

Like what was suggested before, I could see the Hoshido invasion still happening (resource scarcity and Hoshidan isolationism as Garon's justifications) but then ending by chapter 15 with all the Hoshido royals captured. So far so good, Nohr finally gets more resources and Hoshido is basically absorbed. Despite the royals being captive, the common folks in Hoshido is still resisting and stages multiple attempts to free them. As a result Garon orders for their execution.

The Nohrian siblings are very much not down with this, even if they can sort of understand the point (at least Marx and Leon do) and try to convince Garon to be merciful, especially for Sakura who seems the least likely to become an effective rebel leader. This doesn't work, so Kamui tries to free them him/herself (with everyone minus Marx helping), but they get caught and the Hoshidan's are executed. Despite this Garon decides to pardon the siblings.. except Kamui who has now evidently proven a traitor (in this, Garon still loves his kids, but Kamui was never more than a war trophy). This is however the last straw for even Marx and they all turn on Garon.

From here on it could become an outright civil war, where you gather more and more allies and dismantle the war mongering nobility (which should include Ganz and Iago) before storming the capital.

Feel free to point out any logic flaws in this.

While I think this is good and all, I don't personally think all the Hoshdan siblings should die.I definitely think that by far Ryouma should be a definite to die, not cause I dislike him but cause I think it would make sense from the point of view that he is to be the next ruler of Hoshido and to show an example.Maybe Sakura could be killed off which would really set Kamui off of maybe Takumi but as I said, I don't think all the siblings should die.

[Yari]

While I think this is good and all, I don't personally think all the Hoshdan siblings should die.I definitely think that by far Ryouma should be a definite to die, not cause I dislike him but cause I think it would make sense from the point of view that he is to be the next ruler of Hoshido and to show an example.Maybe Sakura could be killed off which would really set Kamui off of maybe Takumi but as I said, I don't think all the siblings should die.

No. Not Ryoma. I'm unable to read/write a fanfic in wish Ryoma (or Zero for that matter) dies.

Now about Nanima²'s idea. I actually really enjoyed it and even if I don't think I can follow it because of my fic's nature (two Kamuis, all three paths) I would enjoy reading it. As long as Ryoma survives.

[Nanima]

While I think this is good and all, I don't personally think all the Hoshdan siblings should die.I definitely think that by far Ryouma should be a definite to die, not cause I dislike him but cause I think it would make sense from the point of view that he is to be the next ruler of Hoshido and to show an example.Maybe Sakura could be killed off which would really set Kamui off of maybe Takumi but as I said, I don't think all the siblings should die.

Well, you could have one or two get away during the escape attempt, and the rest are caught and executed. Like you said, Ryouma is an obvious execution candidate from a thematic point of view (as the crown prince and king-in-waiting he is the greatest source of stability for the Hoshidan's, so having that ripped away would have a huge impact). Then there is Sakura (as the most innocent), where her death would not only set Kamui off, but also the Nohrian siblings and very importantly any decent person in Nohr. It would be a great way to divide not just the Nohrian royalty/nobility, but the nation itself. Takumi is a wild card here, where I am not sure if he should die or not.

But what would be interesting is a rebel queen Hinoka, who manages to rally the Hoshidan resistance. It would take a while for her to forgive Kamui for his role in the invasion, but his help in her escape would certainly be a greater justification for it than what happens in the actual story. She could then aid in the civil war and regain Hoshidan independance this way once Marx sits on the throne.

It would also make her a more interesting character.

I am just not very confident in my story-telling ability, so I am not sure wether I should write anything.

[TheWerdna]

I just find it hard to believe that the game's story is worse than AWAKENINGS (aka the game where the terrible ruler Emmeryn is viewed as a martyr by everyone and the main villains are a discount Disney villain and an evul dragon who wants to destroy the world because lol wynaut).

I'm still adamant that the story's problems are being exaggerated terribly. Not like that's anything new for this fandom.

Have you read the Nohr story?!?!?

I mean, I think the hate for the other two routes (while by no mean unjustified) is a bit exaggerated. In the end it has the opposite problem to Awakening: Awakening's story was lame because it was barely existant in the first place, and things just happened without any justification or reasoning behind them. Fates on the other hand attempts to go in depth and have a complex story, only to faceplant in a pile of WTF full of contradictions and stupid explanations.

[Alazen]

I hope we all agree that Ganz and/or Macbeth should be rewritten to be less over the top if Hoshido doesn't have any comparable characters.

[Yari]

I agree. Ganz and Macbeth definitely need to be rewritten for the good of the Nohr side of the story.

[Nanima]

Maybe Ganz could be rewritten as a grizzled old landowner of a Nohrian border county, who hates Hoshido because they just stood by while his people were starving within sight of their border. And maybe the Hoshidans actively slaughtered anyone who tried to cross their border for help. Of course, his desire for revenge still goes way overboard.

Really, the idea of making the Hoshidans more aggressive in their isolationism is a really obvious and good way to make them morally grey, so I wonder why none of the writers really thought of it.

And Macbeth could still be morally bankrupt, but less in a "I kick puppies for fun" way, and more in a devious opportunist way. Like he is less interested in the resources for the sake of the Nohrian people, and more for his own gain. To him the invasion gets him money, land and power. But instead of going out of his way to make people suffer, he is just strictly trying to get the most profit and very pragmatic in achieving this.

This way they can still be villains that are satisfying to fight against, without making them outright caricatures and give them a reason for following a more "grey" Garon. It would also demonstrate the harmful elements in Nohrian society.

[Yari]

Maybe Ganz could be rewritten as a grizzled old landowner of a Nohrian border county, who hates Hoshido because they just stood by while his people were starving within sight of their border. And maybe the Hoshidans actively slaughtered anyone who tried to cross their border for help. Of course, his desire for revenge still goes way overboard.

Really, the idea of making the Hoshidans more aggressive in their isolationism is a really obvious and good way to make them morally grey, so I wonder why none of the writers really thought of it.

Making Hoshido a very isolated country was one of my first ideas to make it more grey. It's rather easy to implement in the story and it's a fairly realistic way of writting Hoshido.

And after sometime of brainstorming I think I found an idea I can stick to for the general storyline of my fanfic.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Yari

[Ryo]

I actually don't mind Ganz and Macbeth being purely evil for the sake of being evil. But at least they should be more interesting villains, which they currently aren't. They (or at least Macbeth) should be more manipulating and have their own agendas which shouldn't always be to Garon's benefit. They should actually be pulling some strings behind Garon's back, and these actions need to have major effects on the story to make it more complicated, instead of always acting as his sidekicks. As things stand, they're just as bad as Kamui and co. in this regard. I agree that Garon should be more grey though.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Ryo

[Nanima]

Making Hoshido a very isolated country was one of my first ideas to make it more grey. It's rather easy to implement in the story and it's a fairly realistic way of writting Hoshido.

And after sometime of brainstorming I think I found an idea I can stick to for the general storyline of my fanfic.

Yeah, with all the cultural inspiration it's a shame they didn't try to make Hoshido like Tokugawa-ruled Japan. they could have even given Ryouma his own little character arc (speaking of Birthright now), where he realises how much harm the Hoshidan isolationism has done to Nohr and the surrounding areas and has to overcome all the cultural biases in Hoshido that still favour the old way.

Looking at it like this makes me realize how much you can get out of the premise.

[Yari]

Now that I wrote the final general storyline for the fanfic and all three paths (after hours of brainstorming) I better get to my "character development" chart to make sure that's all covered.

The character are so important it's a bit sad how some are so poorly written.

[Nanima]

I am so sad that the sisters are so underused. They don't even get their own personal weapons. Camilla should be more like

Sialeeds from Suikoden V,

(Suikoden V spoiler)

in that she recognizes the danger of Nohr's darker elements and uses subtle manipulative tactics to limit their influence, before outright removing them during the civil war.

Or just giving her any kind of personality outside of "I loooooove Kamui!" would be a start.

And I have to admit that I have grown a bit fond of my idea of a rebel Queen Hinoka.