Fixing Fates story issues (spoilers)

[FrostyFireMage]

According to some people the Nohr story isn't really that atrocious - it's that people were expecting a glorious revolution being undertaken when it's more realistic that Kamui wouldn't resort to something so drastic when it would pit him/her against 90% of Nohr and instead unite the infighting nation and minimize causalities.

If Garon found out they were rebelling and not following orders it'd be pretty much game over for the reformation.

Then again people might be just being optimistic. I'm sure the story issues aren't as simplistic as this.

[Alazen]

Yes since watching a crystal ball that conveniently pops up and also conveniently stops working before it can be used to expose Fake Garon to all the Nohr siblings is so much more realistic. Along with invading Hoshido so that Fake Garon can sit on Hoshido's throne.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Alazen

[Taka-kun]

According to some people the Nohr story isn't really that atrocious - it's that people were expecting a glorious revolution being undertaken when it's more realistic that Kamui wouldn't resort to something so drastic when it would pit him/her against 90% of Nohr and instead unite the infighting nation and minimize causalities.

If Garon found out they were rebelling and not following orders it'd be pretty much game over for the reformation.

Then again people might be just being optimistic. I'm sure the story issues aren't as simplistic as this.

It's not that Kamui isn't doing something drastic, it's that they do NOTHING at all. IS did market it, ever since the second trailer, that Nohr would be about reforming the militaristic nation from within, whether via working with the system or starting a rebellion. Instead they go like, "yeah, there is that throne in Hoshido". What would be the plan then if Kamui didn't know that "Garon" is not Garon and actually just a corrupt guy in the system. "Meh, should just let him sit on the throne, maybe it will fix him up".

[Thane]

According to some people the Nohr story isn't really that atrocious - it's that people were expecting a glorious revolution being undertaken when it's more realistic that Kamui wouldn't resort to something so drastic when it would pit him/her against 90% of Nohr and instead unite the infighting nation and minimize causalities.

If Garon found out they were rebelling and not following orders it'd be pretty much game over for the reformation.

Then again people might be just being optimistic. I'm sure the story issues aren't as simplistic as this.

According to some people, psychics exist.

I jest, but that's an incredibly poor argument, and I believe you know it. The game was marketed as having a darker, more complex story which would revolve around reforming the country from within - certainly there are more ways of doing that than starting a full-fledged revolution; I've seen a number of good suggestions from the straight up assassination of Garon to crushing Hoshido early and dealing with the repercussions later.

Look, there are countless of threads dealing with what went wrong with Conquest's story, and if you want my disjointed, poorly written thoughts which I created an entire topic for once I was done with the story, then you can look up the "The Light that Shines in the Dark - Nohr Story Discussion".

If you want the short version, it's just like Taka-kun said, the problem is that NOTHING happens, not just that there's no sight of a revolution, reform or what have you. There are also issues like character regression, plot teases (I must admit that's a new one for me, it's essentially "buy another path to find out what happens!"), twisting the narrative in a way that makes no sense like Kamui being portrayed for being in the right when he's clearly not, incredibly cheap plot devices and the list goes on and on. It also doesn't help that we don't get to see Ganz, Iago or Garon in a different light or anything, they're still the same as always. We just follow orders until the game ends.

Oh, and while we're talking about this, there's one scene that has been bothering me the more I've been thinking about it. It's such a minor thing, but it just goes to show how little sense character interactions make: once Hinoka has been defeated and the invasion of Hoshido is nearing the end stages and people are dying left and right and they start realizing they have no chance of winning, Camilla starts flirting with her...and Hinoka blushes. Her entire army has been crushed, her homeland is burning, and one of the main sources of all her problems are flirting with her and she starts blushing? Why doesn't she lash out? Why doesn't she do anything? I realize Hinoka is a complete afterthought as a character, but this is just fetish fuel jammed into the story at the worst possible moment. Imagine if your friends died around you and the one who killed them just walks up to you and starts flirting - what would your natural reaction be?

[Sunwoo]

Oh, and while we're talking about this, there's one scene that has been bothering me the more I've been thinking about it. It's such a minor thing, but it just goes to show how little sense character interactions make: once Hinoka has been defeated and the invasion of Hoshido is nearing the end stages and people are dying left and right and they start realizing they have no chance of winning, Camilla starts flirting with her...and Hinoka blushes. Her entire army has been crushed, her homeland is burning, and one of the main sources of all her problems are flirting with her and she starts blushing? Why doesn't she lash out? Why doesn't she do anything? I realize Hinoka is a complete afterthought as a character, but this is just fetish fuel jammed into the story at the worst possible moment. Imagine if your friends died around you and the one who killed them just walks up to you and starts flirting - what would your natural reaction be?

I think my reaction would be this:

"Uh, excuse me. My country is BURNING TO THE GROUND. You and your people are responsible for the burning. And you have the nerve to fucking flirt with me?"

[NekoKnight]

I guess Camilla is obligated to have one mood-breaking, fanservice scene per route; be it a sultry walk focusing on her assets or flirting with a defeated enemy female commander.

[JupiterKnight]

"Uh, excuse me. My country is BURNING TO THE GROUND. You and your people are responsible for the burning. And you have the nerve to fucking flirt with me?"

I would totally find this believable if Hoshido was a wasteland in the ending, or very much left in ruins. Clearly she needs to go to Nohr and see what a real burned wasteland looks like.

Instead it just leaves me laughing.

Edited August 19, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[Sunwoo]

I would totally find this believable if Hoshido was a wasteland in the ending, or very much left in ruins. Clearly she needs to go to Nohr and see what a real burned wasteland looks like.

Instead it just leaves me laughing.

Laughter is good. Honestly, if the plot is so bad that it cannot be salvaged as a dramatic story, then we might as well go all out and make it a comedy.

[Ryo]

At this rate I do have to wonder if it has become too wishful to hope for a semi-coherent storyline in a future FE installment. Narrative issues and regression aren't exactly a recent phenomenon in the series, and it most likely won't end with Fates. With a game of FE's nature, it's already hard to expect for any spectacular piece of literature (which we actually never had IMO), but if this trend continues then I fear we may eventually come to the point where the story and narrative elements won't even matter anymore, so much that they might as well not exist (though for the pessimistic, some could also argue that we're already at that point right now). Even if IS has tried to improve after Awakening's criticisms, the actual results still leave much to be desired...

EDIT: Also, Invisible History is coming out tomorrow. I'm not sure if I even want to know about its "revelations"...

Edited August 19, 2015 by Ryo

[Sasori]

There could also do some fixing of the whole Nohr is literally Mordor and Hoshido is paradise to remove the Hoshido bias as well.

Or actually do something with it instead of just having one be hell for the sake of it.

I don't mind Nohr being Mordor because it was advertised that Nohr was a country without the rescources to support themselves. I do have a question though. How often does that come up in the main story? Is it mentioned at all or does "Garon" simply justifies the invasion by twirling his mustouche?

[FrostyFireMage]

It feels like people are criticizing the plot far too harshly and exaggerating the flaws due to being on edge over the series apparently becoming a shallow animoo waifu simulator.

Edited August 19, 2015 by FrostyFireMage

[arvilino]

It feels like people are criticizing the plot far too harshly and exaggerating the flaws due to being on edge over the series apparently becoming a shallow animoo waifu simulator.

Possibly a lot of this seems to come from people picking their pre-ordained opinion and then sticking to it no matter what.

I've distanced myself mildly from this kind of discussion as the method we've been fed story information is essentially chinese whispers and moral outrage kind of topics or articles. It seems a lot like judging the quality of the story from bits and pieces or small summaries rather than a full picture. The way this is I feel we'll have a scenario that much like Awakening when the game releases in english and we have a full script is available we'll see the exact same claims regardless of what is in the script.

If there are answers and important explanations that have been overlooked, with how the game is being treated I don't expect any different from "Oh I didn't know that was there, well that explanation poor writing too" or "is there an explanation for that explanation?".

Edited August 19, 2015 by arvilino

[Taka-kun]

I don't mind Nohr being Mordor because it was advertised that Nohr was a country without the rescources to support themselves. I do have a question though. How often does that come up in the main story? Is it mentioned at all or does "Garon" simply justifies the invasion by twirling his mustouche?

That's basically it. "Garon" wants to destroy both Nohr and Hoshido because they forgot him (even though they still worship him, so yeah).

[Jedi]

With a game of FE's nature, it's already hard to expect for any spectacular piece of literature (which we actually never had IMO)s"...

I'd argue for Jugdral, Tellius, Magvel and parts of Elibe.

[NekoKnight]

It feels like people are criticizing the plot far too harshly and exaggerating the flaws due to being on edge over the series apparently becoming a shallow animoo waifu simulator.

Possibly a lot of this seems to come from people picking their pre-ordained opinion and then sticking to it no matter what.

There are over 18 pages of discussion of the plot in this thread and a multitude of other threads to discuss other specific aspects of the writing. If you read through all those pages and only gleamed "people are simply exaggerating" and don't really know what they're talking about, I think you need to think over your position again. The localization will undoubtedly change or shed light on certain things that people have problems with but as has been discussed and analyzed over and over again, Fates' writing missed the mark, on many fronts.

[Sasori]

That's basically it. "Garon" wants to destroy both Nohr and Hoshido because they forgot him (even though they still worship him, so yeah).

Well true, but I doubt "Garon" can go around telling people that. Does he really make no effort to sell the invasion as something Nohr needs to his kids or other non psycho's?

[Taka-kun]

Well true, but I doubt "Garon" can go around telling people that. Does he really make no effort to sell the invasion as something Nohr needs to his kids or other non psycho's?

No, his most "trusted" men are Ganz and Iago, with the former just doing it because he likes some slaughter and the latter being part of the conspiracy. Marx is technically the Nohrian army's leader but he goes "because father commands so" without the slightest effort of thinking himself.

[sperio]

It feels like people are criticizing the plot far too harshly and exaggerating the flaws due to being on edge over the series apparently becoming a shallow animoo waifu simulator.

I think you have a point here. I think the fanservice is making people (myself included) look at this game more critically than other FE titles. I'm not sure whether Fates is all that bad when compared to its last several predecessors. It's probably better, in a few cases.

But I think the outrage comes from the fact that the story was so emphasized in the marketing (and Fates had much more marketing than any other title). There was a lot of bragging about having a celebrity writer on board...without mentioning that he only wrote the general scenario. :P Do you remember all the hype pre-release? Lots of talk about this being "A Song of Ice and Fire Emblem" and other such hyperbole. I think we're feeling the boomerang of that excitement, but now it's been changed to disappointment.

[sperio]

Well true, but I doubt "Garon" can go around telling people that. Does he really make no effort to sell the invasion as something Nohr needs to his kids or other non psycho's?

I agree. I assume Garon/Marx doesn't have a standing army that big; they probably had to get some of those soldiers and money from their dukes and liege lords, who would probably ask for an explanation...

[Thane]

It feels like people are criticizing the plot far too harshly and exaggerating the flaws due to being on edge over the series apparently becoming a shallow animoo waifu simulator.

Strange, I replied to your post on the previous page where I never mentioned anything about it being an "animoo waifu simulator", but instead listed some of my thoughts on the story as well as directed you to another topic. Like NekoKnight said, this is the 19:th page on this thread dedicated to fixing story issues, and there are a lot of other threads dedicated to discussing the writing (most of which are very negative) that don't mention any anime influences - it seems to me you're not even trying to get a grasp of what some people have to say about the story, or why a lot of us dislike it. I can understand ignoring me and my posts, I really can, but to ignore all the threads that have been made as well as the 19 pages on the very same thread you're commenting on makes it seem like you don't even bother to understand.

[Sunwoo]

Ignoring other people's arguments and not reading the thread is scummy. FFM is scum.

##Vote: FFM

You play mafia. Step it up!

But in all seriousness, the game's story has issues. There is really no way around it. Even if all of the "shallow animoo waifu simulator" stuff was removed, it wouldn't make the story better. The only thing it could possibly affect is that the Hoshido siblings would have no excuse to not be related to you if you couldn't marry them. But that doesn't change the fundamental flaws of the story because marriage doesn't affect the plot!

[arvilino]

There are over 18 pages of discussion of the plot in this thread and a multitude of other threads to discuss other specific aspects of the writing. If you read through all those pages and only gleamed "people are simply exaggerating" and don't really know what they're talking about, I think you need to think over your position again. The localization will undoubtedly change or shed light on certain things that people have problems with but as has been discussed and analyzed over and over again, Fates' writing missed the mark, on many fronts.

Threads like this have been started less than 1 month after the game has even came out. It's quite likely the Japanese release itself actually does justify itself in regards most of us haven't even seen. But coming so quick and hard on it much like Awakening many story criticisms will persist even if there is something in the game that explains itself, I just don't think now is the best time to do a retrospective on the story.

My reference to Awakening was that a 2-3 years there was still claims of plot points being unexplained that were explained even in mandatory story scenes. General Banzai's FE7 analysis came years after the game released, yet less than 2 months into the Japanese release of Fates we're supposedly at the point everyone knows the story top to bottom when only a handful of players can understand it and for the rest its second hand accounts where the source of information for discussion is an opinion.

I'd feel this way regardless of who said what good or bad or even for gameplay mechanics(People were incredibly quick to act like they knew how no weapon durability effected the game) but longer for story. When someone's one of the few that understands it and creates a discussion thread(s) with an opinion pushing opening where they're the main source of information, the perception is obviously going to be skewed for those who can't understand. Are we getting the full picture? Did they overlook something? Can or have they read the whole thing? Is information being witheld for the purpose of a viewpoint?

Edited August 19, 2015 by arvilino

[XeKr]

To add to arvilino's point, just how many years was FE8/FE10 maligned for bad story (just lol if you visited gfaqs in those days)? Nowadays, if you're informed by a some opinions from here and reddit and such, apparently it's (Magvel/Tellius) an incredible and epic narrative. I've seen FE4 be attacked a lot too, over the years, but some people consider it the pinnacle of FE.

(I'm in the camp of "never been impressed by FE storytelling", except maybe future past for sentimental reasons)

Edited August 19, 2015 by XeKr

[Alazen]

Nobody has found the cure in Awakening's script for Valm being so irrelevant, the Grimleal worshiping a dragon out to destroy humanity who makes no attempt to hide that, the 2nd Gen being not at all as integrated into the narrative as Genealogy of the Holy War's, shoddy worldbuilding (Who was running Ylisse while Chrom ran around Valm?) that goes in line with retcons of past FEs (see Grima), Robin, etc.

Anyway, I'll wait to see if any of Fates' apologists here could really debunk the following claims:

1. Hoshido is portrayed in a ridiculously whiter manner than Nohr. Whether it's how Nohrian forces get pointed out for committing war crimes, Nohr having the most irredeemable human characters, Mikoto's treatment against Garon's, any examples of ills in Hoshidan society are underexplored at best with Oboro's bigotry coming from dead parents, and everything else.

2. The Nohr Path features Kamui standing impotent as Ganz and Macbeth go around around eating babies, watching a convenient crystal ball that conveniently exposes Fake Garon before conveniently breaking, and doing Aqua's brilliant plan that has Nohr smashing Hoshido so that Fake Garon can sit on its throne.

3. Kamui is on the same level as Robin, if not worse, when it comes to being worshiped by the narrative. Just look at Takumi repeatedly being painted as damn wrong for his attitude towards Kamui to point of his body turning into a hate monster.

4. "No talking about Touma" isn't any better than the Blood Pact. Especially when you consider Aqua doesn't inform anybody about it and Hydra in the Nohr Path despite her group going through the proper area.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Alazen

[Irysa]

To add to arvilino's point, just how many years was FE8/FE10 maligned for bad story (just lol if you visited gfaqs in those days)? Nowadays, if you're informed by a some opinions from here and reddit and such, apparently it's (Magvel/Tellius) an incredible and epic narrative. I've seen FE4 be attacked a lot too, over the years, but some people consider it the pinnacle of FE.

(I'm in the camp of "never been impressed by FE storytelling", except maybe future past for sentimental reasons)

I'm pretty sure people are still giving FE10 shit for it's narrative and plot contrivances, and most of what I remember to be complaints about FE8's story were all centric around Eirika being an idiot rather than the plot itself not holding up. There was that single flashback scene which begs the question of why neither twin remembers Lyon talking about messing about with the Demon Stone, but that's really all I can remember for complaints, rather than consistent failings of the narrative, of which 7, 10, 12 (retcons/additions) and 13 tend to get particularly criticised on.

EDIT: FWIW, I don't really care about trying to prejudge the game's entire story based on tidbits of information from here and there, and don't think it's reasonable to do so until the game has a complete translation. But I also don't think it's neccessarily a negative to discuss based on that information, because it's compelling to do so. I think one needs to actually experience the game's presentation of that narrative to really make a fair judgement; one of the reasons I don't tend to get that frustrated about some aspects of Awakening as others do is because I don't really think the game was ever really trying to do a serious or introspective story, it's a simpler and more melodramatic approach. This game seems to have loftier aims (but that's just me talking based on pre-release information), so the criticism probably has more relevance here.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Irysa