Fixing Fates story issues (spoilers)

[Pepper]

Let's not make our disappointment over Fates even worse by bringing up a story that shoots itself in the foot even.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear people are complaining about the storyline in Fates - they did TRY to improve the story, and took complaints about Awakening seriously, so I hope some criticism will help them make the next game better. If people just ate all the fan service and deus ex machina up, then Intelligent Systems might not realize the story is an inexcusable mess.

What exactly did your friend say? I know one person can't represent the entire Japanese fanbase, but I am curious regardless.

Ok I'll tell you what he told me when I spoke to him last. 1 Hoshido has been sold alot. 2 Nohr and Ik are well regarded gameplay wise. 3 Aqua and Kamui is the most paired couple they apparently did a poll at the 25th and she was the one most Japanese players waifued. 4 They really shit on the story line for fates or most people he knows found it lackluster and wish the writer luck next time ouch. 4 The artist is very well liked. 5 There is hype for the Manga. 6 Lynn Aqua's voice actor is a goodness that dog.

[B.Leu]

I think that comparing If to Naruto is fun as well as being valide. :p

That's another thing that bother the hell out of me. If Aqua is pushed into our face so hard that she might as well being pushed in our asses, what is the point of giving us thousands of waifus/husbandos ? It's pathetic that one of the better written support is Kamui/Aqua.

Edited July 30, 2015 by B.Leu

[Pepper]

I think that comparing If to Naruto is fun as well as being valide. :p

That's another thing that bother the hell out of me. If Aqua is pushed into our face so hard that she might as well being pushed in our asses, what is the point of giving us thousands of waifus/husbandos ? It's pathetic that one of the better written support is Kamui/Aqua.

Each time you remind me of Naruto I feel the flash backs of pure stupidity, I cant answerer you that cause I don't know what goes in IS or Nintendo's heads, but I'm super happy that Mr Kozaki is getting the praise he rightfully deserves as he as done a stand up job with the artwork.

[Ryo]

I would love to see you guys' reactions if IS decided to hire Naruto's author for the next FE game :p

[Yari]

I would love to see you guys' reactions if IS decided to hire Naruto's author for the next FE game :p

Don't! Just don't even!

[Pepper]

I would love to see you guys' reactions if IS decided to hire Naruto's author for the next FE game :p

No.

[Thane]

I would love to see you guys' reactions if IS decided to hire Naruto's author for the next FE game :p

I would consider simply not getting the game in protest. The last arc of Naruto is probably the single worst piece of writing I've ever seen that was written by someone who gets paid to write fiction.

Which is a shame, because the first two arcs even with all the clichés, horrible main characters and predictable subplots were actually pretty good.

[Taka-kun]

They should get Yoshiki Tanaka to write next FE (the writer behind the Heroic Legend of Arslan and Legend of Galactic Heroes). He is the only Japanese manga/novel writer who manages to portray war consistently as brutal, instead of this wannabe-Lord of The Rings that Fates is. I feel that the FE has moved away from the grand scale and epicness it had in the past, to just a bunch of heroes fighting an evil dragon.

[Pepper]

Its not that Fates need to be Lord of the rings tier good it just needed to be good or decent and not what we got, I still think they didn't proof read the script or that they way the paths and with IK being DLC worked caused major issues to the storyline's structure.

[Thane]

They should get Yoshiki Tanaka to write next FE (the writer behind the Heroic Legend of Arslan and Legend of Galactic Heroes). He is the only Japanese manga/novel writer who manages to portray war consistently as brutal, instead of this wannabe-Lord of The Rings that Fates is. I feel that the FE has moved away from the grand scale and epicness it had in the past, to just a bunch of heroes fighting an evil dragon.

I'm confused, hasn't that been relatively consistent throghout the series? I've never gotten a really "epic" sense from the series' writing, and if you ask me, Blazing Sword's story is not much better than Fates; every long-running series has its ups and downs.

That said, it does worry me when they say things like "an anime you can live in", and I hope they move away from that idea in Fire Emblem 15.

[B.Leu]

They should get Yoshiki Tanaka to write next FE (the writer behind the Heroic Legend of Arslan and Legend of Galactic Heroes). He is the only Japanese manga/novel writer who manages to portray war consistently as brutal, instead of this wannabe-Lord of The Rings that Fates is. I feel that the FE has moved away from the grand scale and epicness it had in the past, to just a bunch of heroes fighting an evil dragon.

No shit Sherlock. :p

I dunno who is Yoshiki Tanaka, but a quick google research tell me that I love his drawing style.

[Pepper]

I'm confused, hasn't that been relatively consistent throghout the series? I've never gotten a really "epic" sense from the series' writing, and if you ask me, Blazing Sword's story is not much better than Fates; every long-running series has its ups and downs.

That said, it does worry me when they say things like "an anime you can live in", and I hope they move away from that idea in Fire Emblem 15.

I wonder if they'll legit take the harping on Fates storyline to heart cause it's been shat on hard.

No shit Sherlock. :p

I dunno who is Yoshiki Tanaka, but a quick google research tell me that I love his drawing style.

Ah legends of the galactic Heroes good times "in the Skies of love!"

[Taka-kun]

I'm confused, hasn't that been relatively consistent throghout the series? I've never gotten a really "epic" sense from the series' writing, and if you ask me, Blazing Sword's story is not much better than Fates; every long-running series has its ups and downs.

That said, it does worry me when they say things like "an anime you can live in", and I hope they move away from that idea in Fire Emblem 15.

Yes, but it wasn't the only thing in the series. FE4 (which we all love to compare all future games with) involves the ambitions of the noble houses because they wanted power, which Alvis (the pawn of Manfroy) manipulated. FE9 has Ashnard, while paving his way to get the medallion and the harbringer of destruction, destroy the class system and creating meritocracy. FE10 had the corrupt senate creating chaos to keep themselves in power. I don't know much about Elibe and Magvel, but IIRC, Bern was much stronger and unified compared to Lycia and Etruria, which had bickering nobles. The token cult of the dark dragon mainly manipulated from the shadows, toying with men's ambitions for their own gains (and doing so skillfully).

Heck, even Awakening had shades of this. Neither Gangrel nor Walhart worked for Grima's ressurection, Gangrel was consumed by his quest for vengeance and Walhart was motivated by creating a strong Valmese Empire, a successor to Alm's and Celica's. We can deduce that Valm had infighting as dukes and dynasts refused to work together even though a larger threat loomed over them.

What do we have in Fates? The only one I see that has personal goals separate from the will of the gods is Fuma Kotaro. The tribes bow to the will of the Yatogami and Nohr as a whole is moved only by Garon, who wields the will of their god. Even Macbeth and Ganz do little besides "following orders".

[B.Leu]

That said, it does worry me when they say things like "an anime you can live in", and I hope they move away from that idea in Fire Emblem 15.

It's worrysome, and also confusing as hell. The guys hyped the story so much, had so many possibilities, they really dangled the good plot fruit in front of us, and in the end...

But I guess that in the end, the writing being crap really shouldn't be surprising if they said something like that, because we know what a generic anime is. :/

[Pepper]

Can't lie the Yato especially in IK is pretty badass, but yea its a sad state of affairs for everyone I don't think the staff are to pleased with it due the harping and fans aren't happy.

[Taka-kun]

What does fans (at least here) want anyway? I know I have pretty extreme desires, that will probably be never realized in FE (I loved Geneaology and the Tellius saga though), but what kind of story did fans want to see? I have heard that pairings harm the setting and story, yet it's still a widely popular feature (going by how many that has waifu/husbando on their signature).

[TheWerdna]

Each time you remind me of Naruto I feel the flash backs of pure stupidity, I cant answerer you that cause I don't know what goes in IS or Nintendo's heads, but I'm super happy that Mr Kozaki is getting the praise he rightfully deserves as he as done a stand up job with the artwork.

I am glad I jumped ship on Naruto early on before it got really stupid. Its kinda funny, since a couple times I've asked one of my friends what's happened with the show and if its worth watching again, and every time I got only about halfway through listening to the explanation before going crosseyed as my brain started to melt out my ears.

[TheWerdna]

Heck, even Awakening had shades of this. Neither Gangrel nor Walhart worked for Grima's ressurection, Gangrel was consumed by his quest for vengeance and Walhart was motivated by creating a strong Valmese Empire, a successor to Alm's and Celica's. We can deduce that Valm had infighting as dukes and dynasts refused to work together even though a larger threat loomed over them.

I actually appreciated that Walhart wasn't just purely a bad guy. I liked how you could see where he was coming from, and that he was more of a well meaning extremist who decided the best way to protect humanity and defeat Grima was to unite the world into a single empire, whether everyone else liked it or not.

[BrightBow]

They should get Yoshiki Tanaka to write next FE (the writer behind the Heroic Legend of Arslan and Legend of Galactic Heroes). He is the only Japanese manga/novel writer who manages to portray war consistently as brutal, instead of this wannabe-Lord of The Rings that Fates is. I feel that the FE has moved away from the grand scale and epicness it had in the past, to just a bunch of heroes fighting an evil dragon.

I think what is the most important is that the writer is also involved in the development process.

One of my theories how Awakening ended up as the confused mess it is, with many elements that looked like they should matter just kinda standing lonely in the corner without any attention or purpose, is that the initial draft from the story came from people who perfectly knew how stories worked and was were for something but the final draft was made by someone else who had no idea why things existed and were the story was going with it's themes.

I mean how else to you explain something like the Hierarch? He appears out of nowhere, gets build up as being absolutely trustworthy, having been loyal to Emmeryn during her early days when she was the most vulnerable... and then betrays Emmeryn to Plegia for no reason and gets killed and never gets mentioned again. And all of this in less then a minute. The script gives a lot of detail on this guy but then suddenly falls completely silent when the things we were told about him conflict with his actual actions.

And after reading the Iwata ask's about Fates, my impression was that this is exactly how Fates was written.

Kibayashi spoke how he basically squeezed him writing the draft into his busy schedule., with IS just expecting 10 pages per route but him writing more because "there was no way I could just write a short plot summary and be done with it.", resulting in those 500 pages drafts. There isn't anything in that interview that indicates that he worked on the game beyond the initial draft he wrote and given how he had to push things back just to write the draft, it's hard to imagine that he could have had the time to get deeper involved with what ended up on the cartridge.

I actually appreciated that Walhart wasn't just purely a bad guy. I liked how you could see where he was coming from, and that he was more of a well meaning extremist who decided the best way to protect humanity and defeat Grima was to unite the world into a single empire, whether everyone else liked it or not.

Even then, the story wasn't really about challenging the convictions of an dictator who uses cruelty for the greater good. Heck, one of the first things that happens in the arc is that the hero cause a cruel massacre for the greater good that never gets commented on beyond praising the player character for her supposed genius.

The arc was basically entirely about Excellus being a jerk that we should hate, so that we feel good once things turn against him.

Edited July 30, 2015 by BrightBow

[Taka-kun]

Even then, the story wasn't really about challenging the convictions of an dictator who uses cruelty for the greater good. Heck, one of the first things that happens in the arc is that the hero cause a cruel massacre for the greater good that never gets commented on beyond praising the player character for her supposed genius.

The arc was basically entirely about Excellus being a jerk that we should hate, so that we feel good once things turn against him.

In the story proper, it wasn't. But the M!Robin/Walhart support conversation was one of my favorites (along with Robin/Virion) as it DID adress the actions of both during the war. What I liked about Awakening is that the details tell the story, rather than the plot proper. By just thinking about the details (told mostly in the supports and dialogues of the DLCs), you get a better sense of the wars that Awakening takes place in. Like in Gaius/Libra's Harvest convo: "It takes more than pretty words and noble purpose to build a better future. Someone's gotta dig the latrines and haul out the rubbish. If it's not me, it's gonna be someone else. And why not me, right? Then you fair-haired do-gooders can concentrate on saving the world. And you can do it without having to fret about getting your hands dirty.".

Why we critcize the Fates story is perhaps due to not knowing the characters, knowing their supports, heck, not even playing the game yet. All I've heard is all second-hand information.

[NekoKnight]

Kibayashi spoke how he basically squeezed him writing the draft into his busy schedule., with IS just expecting 10 pages per route but him writing more because "there was no way I could just write a short plot summary and be done with it.", resulting in those 500 pages drafts. There isn't anything in that interview that indicates that he worked on the game beyond the initial draft he wrote and given how he had to push things back just to write the draft, it's hard to imagine that he could have had the time to get deeper involved with what ended up on the cartridge.

This explains quite a bit, actually. People talk about executive meddling being the probable cause of Kibayashi's 500 page draft (anything that long must be good... right?) not turning out well but it seems more likely that he just wasn't involved at all in the development of the game. With that in mind, Kibayashi didn't so much write the story as inspire it.

Even then, the story wasn't really about challenging the convictions of an dictator who uses cruelty for the greater good. Heck, one of the first things that happens in the arc is that the hero cause a cruel massacre for the greater good that never gets commented on beyond praising the player character for her supposed genius.

The arc was basically entirely about Excellus being a jerk that we should hate, so that we feel good once things turn against him.

You've brought up "Robin's naval holocaust" several times as a point against Awakening narrative but I don't know what you expected. Sure they could have had a more shocked reaction to Robin's ruthlessness (similar to the initial reaction of the use of Wildfire in GoT) but it was exactly the miracle they needed to defeat the Valmese navy. Had they just stuck a sword through every single enemy soldier, would that have been kinder?

Edited July 30, 2015 by NekoKnight

[BrightBow]

You've brought up "Robin's naval holocaust" several times as a point against Awakening narrative but I don't know what you expected. Sure they could have had a more shocked reaction to Robin's ruthlessness (similar to the initial reaction of the use of Wildfire in GoT) but it was exactly the miracle they needed to defeat the Valmese navy. Had they just stuck a sword through every single enemy soldier, would that have been kinder?

No, of course putting "a sword through every single enemy soldier" would not have been kinder. But if the story feels the need to emphasize that the heroes went out of their way to ensure that "every single enemy soldier" ended up impaled by a peace of metal, I would expect that it is doing so for a reason. The only time this every happened in the series was in Radiant Dawn at the end of Elincia's character arc in Part 2, were Elincia learned that she sometimes has to be ruthless in order to keep her country save, after her unwillingness to kill the fleeing rebels the first time ended up biting her in the ass. It's a detail that didn't exist just because, it was part of a greater whole.

The only reason that Awakening's story needed a miracle at this point was was because the army was said to be twice as large as the Ylissean one. There is no reason for this to be the case unless the writer wants the mass burnings to happen. And in the finished game, the only reason the mass burnings do happen is so that everyone can call Robin a genius before forgetting about it.

Edited July 30, 2015 by BrightBow

[Alazen]

Micaiah orders her oil trick and her tactic is treated as despicable. Micaiah herself is not at all proud of it.

Robin has a fleet burnt and gets praised for it. Robin cheers on like he was fighting bandits.

See a difference?

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

Say what you will guys, and I know reading summaries is nothing compared to playing the game AND understanding the script, but what I read was not worse than Awakening.

I'm not expecting this story to be good (I have very low expectations, and these have been met in the supports department, as enjoyable and/or cute some of them have been), but it'd have to be AWFUL to be worse than what I found to be the worst story I have ever read in a JRPG, lol. Seriously, Awakening' story is so bad to me, that when I re-read it some months ago in a playthrough with my sister, I laughed out loud at some scenes for how stupid, badly written and deus-ex machina-y they were.

Where would this plot be worse than Awakening's?? I'm legitimately curious about this. Are we sure this is not negative hype in action? Granted, there might be some things I don't know, or some things I'm missing out on, so please be gentle with me lol.

[BrightBow]

Micaiah orders her oil trick and her tactic is treated as despicable. Micaiah herself is not at all proud of it.

Robin has a fleet burnt and gets praised for it. Robin cheers on like he was fighting bandits.

See a difference?

While I personally really hate that forced conflict in Radiant Dawn, I do at least give them credit that they tried to give this massacre the proper weight it deserved. But since it ties into what I said previous, I would like to point out another difference between those two events beyond the way the script judges those actions.

I just said about Robin's act that the burnings served no purpose in the story and was were merely fixing the problem of the day and didn't need to happen for anything. The same is not true for Micaiah's action. The story would have to be heavily rewritten if Micaiah's attack or a similar even didn't happen because of continuity with the previous game.

Now as far as I am concerned, the masskilling is not important either. However the war itself is important because there needs to be a trigger for the awakening of the goddesses. But there is no way for the script to justify that the combined forces of the Laguz Alliance, the Begnion Central Army and the Crimean army wouldn't just walk all over the Daein army unless Micaiah evens the odds somehow because the strengths of the individual armies has been established all the way back in PoR, with Begnion's army alone being the most powerful military force on Tellius by far. So Micaiah needed to be handed a way to deal a devastating blow to them.

Awakening on the other hand, has only brought up the superiority of the Valm army in the very same chapter as the burnings, so continuity is not the reason that this event had to happen. Simply remove that statement and there is no longer a reason for a massacre.

Edited July 30, 2015 by BrightBow