Fixing Fates story issues (spoilers)

[Alazen]

A proposal I've seen for fixing how the siblings are handled is having less siblings. It was claimed that Fates has too many siblings to handle them all properly.

For example, it was suggested that Hinoka and Camilla be cut from the game for how superfluous they are. Conversely, it was suggested to cut Ryoma and Marx from the game for Hinoka and Camilla to be the eldest siblings.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Alazen

[Wyvern_Lord]

Hinoka and Ryoma should have been combined to form a brand new character called Ryoma

Ryoma should have been the one training and dedicating his whole life to rescue the brother/sister that was stolen from him while having to balence the responsiblity of being the heir to the throne. as he stands right now he is just rather bland and forgettable.

Hinoka is such a nothing character that her removal takes nothing away from the plot

[Yari]

Hinoka and Ryoma should have been combined to form a brand new character called Ryoma

Ryoma should have been the one training and dedicating his whole life to rescue the brother/sister that was stolen from him while having to balence the responsiblity of being the heir to the throne. as he stands right now he is just rather bland and forgettable.

Hinoka is such a nothing character that her removal takes nothing away from the plot

I love this. I'm a big Ryoma fan and I don't like how some people overlook him even if I understand that he can come of as a bland character and even if I do like Hinoka she adds nothing to the plot and is in my opinion the least important sibling. Having Ryoma take the only characteristic that is important about Hinoka and taking her out wouldn't change the story too much and Ryoma would gain more points as a character.

[Thane]

I think the needless symmetry ruined a lot. Like Wyvern_Lord said, characters could've been combined and they still wouldn't have an excess of traits, aside from Takumi and Leo, who the majority seem to agree are the best written main characters. The game was about a choice, yet whichever side you choose of the two original paths, you end up with an identically structured family for whatever reason.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Thane

[Yari]

If Hinoka, Camilla, Elise and Sakura weren't siblings of Kamui but instead just some other characters it would change a lot. For example Hinoka could be a young royal guard for the Hoshido family, Camilla could be a young woman living in Nohr that has feelings for Kamui, Sakura could be a priestess in training and Elise could be a servant of Nohr and friends with Kamui. That would leave Ryoma and Takumi as Hoshido siblings and Xander and Leon as Nohr's siblings. I think the younger brothers are very well writen but the older brothers need to be changed a little. Edited August 15, 2015 by Yari

[Azz]

Personally, while yes Kamui should indeed have less siblings, I think he should have at least one brother and one sister.

[Alazen]

Elise and Sakura can be fused into one younger sister for either family. Kamui's two younger sisters are so unimportant that one can suspect whoever was designed first was reworked for the opposing family.

Like Hinoka, Camilla suffers from a lack of importance for being Kamui's elder sister. She screams marriage fodder considering not only her design, but her "KamuiKamuiKillItKamuiKamui" shtick. How about fusing her with Marx so that she'd be Garon dependable daughter?

Edited August 25, 2015 by Alazen

[Wyvern_Lord]

Like Hinoka, Camilla suffers from a lack of importance for being Kamui's elder sister. She screams marriage fodder considering not only her design, but her "KamuiKamuiKillItKamuiKamui" shtick. How about fusing her with Marx so that she'd be Garon dependable daughter?

This one is a little harder as Marx and Camilla have very contrasting personalities that won't mesh as easily a Hinoka and Ryoma.

Instead a slight rewrite of marx to be more doubtful of his fathers actions and camillas one CG cutscene to be changed from cheesy porno opening to her trying to bring kamui back and having more of an emotional breakdown when he declines the offer to go to nohr

[NekoKnight]

6 "main characters" (Kamui, Aqua and the other 4 siblings) was overly ambitious to say the least and it's not hard to see why they amount of screentime was spread thin. More important than their relation to Kamui is them having agency and motivations not related to Kamui. Even Leon and Takumi, who are considered the best developed of the bunch, structure a lot of their drama on Kamui's involvement in the plot instead of having their own lives.

[JupiterKnight]

I'd argue that Nohr having a bigger family would make sense due to Garon having a number of concubines and having Aqua as a stepdaughter, while Hoshido can have a smaller one.

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

"I loathe the Hoshido story soley because its very basis is formed around lies. First, Kamui is not actually related to any of Sumeragi's children, so right away the "bloodline vs loyalty" tagline is a crock. Secondly, Kamui's "Birthright" is in the invisible kingdom, not Hoshido, so that's bullcrap as well. He's not even a Hoshidian by technicality. And finally, Garon and Nohr were not responsible for Mikoto's death, Zombie!Hoshidad and, by extension the invisible kingdom were, so there's no justification to use that as a reason to side with Hoshido either. In the Hoshido story, Kamui betrays everyone who knew and loved him in Nohr for literally no damn reason that can be explained."

Yeah, revolting against Garon, which some of you seem to be suggesting he should do, wouldn't necessarily work that well, particularly after he's already alienated Hoshido by siding with Nohr…. he's now stuck with Nohr.

Moreover, seeing that he's not Garon's actual son but a captured Hoshidan prince raised as such, obviously he'd have a lower standing/authority than any of the actual Nohrian royalty.

If he tried leading a revolt, who would join him in the first place? The soldiers would probably stick to Elise, Camilla, Leo, and Xander rather than going with Kamui. Even if the siblings had sympathies with Kamui, would they really enter open revolution against their own father without some major provocation? Its not like any of them are conniving individuals who want to seize the throne for the sake of their own power.

And what makes you think they'd join you? Xander is the crown prince. Even if you wanted to replace Garon because you felt he was a poor ruler, they might advise restrain, as Xander will naturally succeed Garon anyways after Garon dies, presumably of natural causes, without them needing to risk everything [including death/execution if they lose] in attempting to violently overthrow him. Not to mention the turmoil that might put their country in while they're already at war with Hoshido.

Corrin needs some decisive and powerful evidence that the siblings cannot deny to turn the siblings against Garon… not only that what he's doing wrong, but that what he's doing is such a big threat to Nohr and their own lives that its in their interest to immediately depose him. Preferably something that would turn all the rest of the Nohrian people against Garon as well. That way Garon gets removed uncontroversially (with respect to the siblings and the people) and Nohr doesn't get rent in further civil war between a pro-Garon/status-quo and anit-Garon/revolution faction.

And the evidence needs to be decisive… Kamui cannot just make a wild claim about Garon, even if its true… particularly as he's Hoshidan, and thus if he made a claim that seemed to be aimed at deposing the Nohrian ruler, it would be viewed in a highly suspect manner, plus the siblings might refuse to believe the truth about their father unless the proof was undeniable, before their very eyes.

Would you have advised assassinating Garon? That really wouldn't have worked well… not only is he extremely powerful in his own right, but then there's the fact of what he really is, which makes him even more dangerous than he appears?

Do you think that he could have just started saying bad stuff about Garon openly? Such open plotting would be grounds for Kamui to get labeled a traitor and executed, particularly when Garon has his own agents and other people working under him, like Iago/Macbeth. Bringing such plans to his siblings puts them in similar danger as well.

If he openly starts a revolution in Nohr, then Nohrian people die instead. He may spare Hoshidan lives, but it costs Nohrian lives. And remember, the vast majority of both countries are probably common people who have little to do with their country's military and don't have influence in their government. Is a Nohrian innocent worth any less than a Hoshidan innocent? Either way, innocents are probably going to end up dying. Its a lose-lose.

Ultimately, Kamui puts himself in an extremely difficult position by siding with Nohr in the first place, which forces him to do further morally ambiguous things once in that position to come out with him, his siblings, and as much of the Nohrian people (seeing that he's chosen that as his country) alive as possible.

Choosing Hoshido probably is the wiser choice overall, but there's a certain degree of logic, even if its a cold logic, to Kamui's Nohrian actions once he's already committed down that road.

"Gathering allies" for action against Garon is precisely the way to get branded as an obvious traitor… and thus get executed.

Of course, there'd always be the chance that it wouldn't be caught, but it just takes one person he approaches as a would-be ally who is more loyal to King Garon than Corrin thought that person to be for that person to pretend to agree with Corrin's plans and then turn around and snitch him out to King Garon… or for the person to arrest Corrin as a traitor themselves.

Whereas exposing Garon as a slime monster in front of all of the princes and princess of Nohr immediately turns all of the Nohrians against Garon and GUARANTEES the certain backing of Xander, Leo, Camilla, and Elise, rather than uncertainty of getting their backing given seemingly wild and unsubstantiated accusations against their father. Would YOU believe it if someone told you that your father has been dead for years (without you realizing that he ever died in the first place) and has been replaced by an evil slime monster without you noticing that he was now said evil slime monster? Even if it was true, and even if they had noticed changes in Garon's behavior, its pretty far-fetched sounding and might not be believed, particularly when any number of internal issues in Nohr could have also caused changes in temperament naturally in the real Garon to turn him bitter if he was still around."

This is what someone wrote on gamefaqs and I have to agree with these posts. Now sure things could have been handled better, but as far as I'm concerned I much rather go through Nohr than Hoshido because of the latter's route just being the traditional good vs evil story (Hoshido at least does seem to enter at least one shade of gray the moment some of the people there began persecuting people with Nohr ties as according to Aqua the moment Kamui chooses Nohr) and so far I've watched both Hoshido and Nohr translated playthroughs (thanks to Linkmstr) and have found myself bored with what has been going on in the former (this probably won't bother those new to the franchise as much at least).

While what I'm about to say is subjective I found some moments handled better in Nohr over Hoshido such as when Kamui chooses Hoshido I'm bothered by how Ryoma takes his sweet time to intervene when Xander attacks Kamui whereas in Nohr Xander intervenes the moment Ryoma is about to land his 2nd strike and what bothers me the most is when Kamui is unconscious and enters a life to death state in seeing Xander, Elise, Flora and Lilith his mother Mikoto of all people close to him doesn't show up... at least in Nohr she does and I found the interaction between Kamui and Lilith more heartwarming as their hands are reaching out for each other considering she sacrificed herself for Kamui. Not to mention in Hoshido there's no hug between Kamui and Elise seeing as how she did the same... would have been a nice way to handle the farewell to his younger sister.

Edited August 17, 2015 by AbsoluteZer0Nova

[Thane]

So the guy from gamefaqs is bothered by the fact that "Birthright" is "a crock" title because of Kamui's heritage, but he doesn't care about the commercial more or less lying about reforming Nohr from within? The former could at least be considered a twist, the latter is a false promise.

He also thinks a contrived plan hatched by Azura with the help of a cheap plot device that conveniently breaks so that the rest of the siblings can't use it is a valid plotline? A plan that isn't even mentioned to the other siblings at all, thereby failing to build any form of suspense or moral dilemma that contemplating killing your own father would involve? A plan that includes Azura, Kamui and the siblings invading a peaceful nation and following their father's every wish through gritted teeth, thereby removing any chance at character development?

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but holy crap, I cannot even begin to understand his.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Thane

[Alazen]

No amount of apologizing is going to make Fake Garon and the shenanigans to expose him not shoddy.

Revealing that the king was hijacked by a slimeman while telling little about his views and policies is shoddy. It mows over the issue of convincing the Nohr siblings to rebel against their father.

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

So the guy from gamefaqs is bothered by the fact that "Birthright" is "a crock" title because of Kamui's heritage, but he doesn't care about the commercial more or less lying about reforming Nohr from within? The former could at least be considered a twist, the latter is a false promise.

He also thinks a contrived plan hatched by Azura with the help of a cheap plot device that conveniently breaks so that the rest of the siblings can't use it is a valid plotline? A plan that isn't even mentioned to the other siblings at all, thereby failing to build any form of suspense or moral dilemma that contemplating killing your own father would have? A plan that includes Azura, Kamui and the siblings invading a peaceful nation and following their father's every wish through gritted teeth, thereby removing any chance at character development?

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but holy crap, I cannot even begin to understand his.

Sorry, I made a mistake the first post comes from QJD1381 and then the rest comes from astrophys. I'm all for plot twists, but I do think that was a poorly made choice and that there is the false advertisement also I wouldn't necessarily consider Nohr's reformation from within as a false promise as it at least does what it makes out to do even if it's very late in the game. "In the Hoshido story, Kamui betrays everyone who knew and loved him in Nohr for literally no damn reason that can be explained." The only reason to join from how I see it is because of Mikoto's sacrifice, but choosing your living loved ones who you spent the most time with for most of your life seems like a more reasonable choice and even then if Mikoto were still alive Yukimura suggests that she would understand the path Kamui has chosen, but with a faint smile (I mean she does seem to have some understanding of where Kamui is coming from when he brings up how to him she is someone who he just met).

Edited August 17, 2015 by AbsoluteZer0Nova

[Thane]

I know, my post mainly addressed him, not you.

I'm not a big fan of Kamui not being related to the Hoshido siblings either, but I'll take it over a false promise any day. And no, it definitely does not "do what it makes out to do" by any stretch of the imagination; you chop off Garon's head and call it a day, putting Xander on the throne - you don't reform jack shit. Hell, you make it sound like you reform Nohr in Birthright as well, seeing as you kill Garon in that route, too. There is no uniting Nohr and the different clans, there are no different factions at play to appease or negotiate with, there's no politics involved in the slightest.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you again. If you choose Nohr, you pick a side ONLY because of the siblings and your few friends, whereas if you pick Hoshido, you side with the victims of an unprovoked assault ordered by a crazy king, who for all you know meant to destroy the plaza and kill the entire Hoshido royal family in one fell swoop, Kamui included. Choosing Nohr comes across as downright egotistical from a story perspective, since Kamui values their and their siblings own well-being over an entire nation "filled only with good people", a statement we later learn was said in earnest and actually was true.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Thane

[Ryo]

(Not exactly addressed at anyone, just voicing my opinions about the topic at hand.)

I think if the producers wanted to be ambitious with Conquest's storyline, then at least they should follow said ambition properly, or else just drop it if they're unable to. If coming up with a plan to overthrow Garon would lead Kamui to a lot of hardships, then so be it. If blood of the innocent must be spilled, if every single sibling chooses to turn their back on Kamui, then so be it. If the siblings must face the dilemma of whether to kill their own father for the sake of their homeland, then so be it, let them struggle with their own inner feelings etc. That is how things work in real life anyway. The story itself needs the take these factors into account, and find a way to work around/with them, without relying on convenient plot devices like the slime monster, the breakable crystal ball, the IK curse, Aqua magically forgetting that Anankos and the Touma force exist etc. Conquest's plot is moved forward, patched, and concluded by said conveniences, not its main characters' actual planning, policies or tactics. In the writers' defense, this is not an easy task even for the professionals, but since they chose to stick with this concept, they should at least be more responsible with it.

Sometimes I have to wonder what exactly is Kamui's role in this route? What were they doing there? What did they, as a main character, contribute to the story in the end, when said story have to feed on plot conveniences to resolve its own problems?

Edited August 17, 2015 by Ryo

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

I know, my post mainly addressed him, not you.

I'm not a big fan of Kamui not being related to the Hoshido siblings either, but I'll take it over a false promise any day. And no, it definitely does not "do what it makes out to do" by any stretch of the imagination; you chop off Garon's head and call it a day, putting Xander on the throne - you don't reform jack shit. Hell, you make it sound like you reform Nohr in Birthright as well, seeing as you kill Garon in that route, too. There is no uniting Nohr and the different clans, there are no different factions at play to appease or negotiate with, there's no politics involved in the slightest.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you again. If you choose Nohr, you pick a side ONLY because of the siblings and your few friends, whereas if you pick Hoshido, you side with the victims of an unprovoked assault ordered by a crazy king, who for all you know meant to destroy the plaza and kill the entire Hoshido royal family in one fell swoop, Kamui included. Choosing Nohr comes across as downright egotistical from a story perspective, since Kamui values their and their siblings own well-being over an entire nation "filled only with good people", a statement we later learn was said in earnest and actually was true.

Alright point taken, so both of them do fail on what they set out to do with Hoshido's uniting with your blood siblings to end the war and Nohr's reforming the country from within. However, again I'm still for Nohr because it has shades of gray and I'm just tired of seeing good vs evil with Hoshido. I can't agree with you on Nohr being a egotistical choice, I'm aware that Hoshido is filled with only good people, but that doesn't mean the lives of innocent Nohr lives are worth any less and a majority vs minority of innocents can't really be used here as we do not know the population of both of these countries.

[Thane]

Alright point taken, so both of them do fail on what they set out to do with Hoshido's uniting with your blood siblings to end the war and Nohr's reforming the country from within. However, again I'm still for Nohr because it has shades of gray and I'm just tired of seeing good vs evil with Hoshido. I can't agree with you on Nohr being a egotistical choice, I'm aware that Hoshido is filled with only good people, but that doesn't mean the lives of innocent Nohr lives are worth any less and a majority vs minority of innocents can't really be used here as we do not know the population of both of these countries.

Birthright is traditional to a fault, unexciting and bland, but at least it has a coherent story; the fact that Kamui is not related to the Hoshido siblings, while an unnecessary "plot twist" people predicted on the very same day the second trailer came out and it cheapens the narrative as a whole, it's not the main deal with that route; if it had been, then their non-existent blood ties would've been brought up as a plot point, but it isn't. The idea with the story is to defend an innocent nation and repel the invaders, which is typical to the series. Besides, blood ties or not, it WAS the country he was supposed to be raised in, and from which he was kidnapped.

Like I stated earlier, I don't like Kamui's heritage at all either, but at least the game doesn't make them go "welp, I belong to these people by blood, so I definitely can't go back to Nohr". If you choose Birthright, they don't go back mainly because of Garon; they still love their Nohrian siblings even though they aren't related.

Also, in Birthright, as far as the game shows, you kill very few Nohrians, especially civilians. In Conquest, Iago and Ganz show up no less than three times to kill people Kamui tried to spare.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Thane

[NekoKnight]

If you choose Nohr, you pick a side ONLY because of the siblings and your few friends, whereas if you pick Hoshido, you side with the victims of an unprovoked assault ordered by a crazy king, who for all you know meant to destroy the plaza and kill the entire Hoshido royal family in one fell swoop, Kamui included. Choosing Nohr comes across as downright egotistical from a story perspective, since Kamui values their and their siblings own well-being over an entire nation "filled only with good people", a statement we later learn was said in earnest and actually was true.

The motivation to side with Hoshido is very strong. Garon has apparently tried to kill you twice up to this point, he successfully killed your mother as well as a crowd of other innocent people and he's planning to invade a peaceful land for no reason(plus Nohr has been sending monsters to attack Hoshido, presumably just to spite them). Really, blood-family is the least important reason for him to side with Hoshido. When he "betrays" his Nohr siblings and tells them to withdraw, it's clear he still cares about them and doesn't want a full blown war to break out. Contrast this to when he betrays his Hoshido kin and tells them to withdraw (Where? Should they just allow the invasion to continue? They are on the defensive here.) which makes zero sense.

The stated reason for Kamui going back to Nohr is he wants to stop the war from within Nohr and confront Garon on his attempt to kill him (as if to mock Kamui's choice, the first thing Garon does upon Kamui's return is attempt to have Kamui executed...again). It really does come across short-sighted and egotistical on Kamui's part because Kamui doesn't actually have a plan to stop the war besides appeasing Garon by... doing exactly what Garon orders him to. Oops.

[Thane]

The motivation to side with Hoshido is very strong. Garon has apparently tried to kill you twice up to this point, he successfully killed your mother as well as a crowd of other innocent people and he's planning to invade a peaceful land for no reason(plus Nohr has been sending monsters to attack Hoshido, presumably just to spite them). Really, blood-family is the least important reason for him to side with Hoshido. When he "betrays" his Nohr siblings and tells them to withdraw, it's clear he still cares about them and doesn't want a full blown war to break out. Contrast this to when he betrays his Hoshido kin and tells them to withdraw (Where? Should they just allow the invasion to continue? They are on the defensive here.) which makes zero sense.

The stated reason for Kamui going back to Nohr is he wants to stop the war from within Nohr and confront Garon on his attempt to kill him (as if to mock Kamui's choice, the first thing Garon does upon Kamui's return is attempt to have Kamui executed...again). It really does come across short-sighted and egotistical on Kamui's part because Kamui doesn't actually have a plan to stop the war besides appeasing Garon by... doing exactly what Garon orders him to. Oops.

Wait, are you trying to argue with me or are you agreeing with what I said? I believe I just explained this, or were my arguments that poorly delivered?

[gayserbeam]

The motivation to side with Hoshido is very strong. Garon has apparently tried to kill you twice up to this point, he successfully killed your mother as well as a crowd of other innocent people and he's planning to invade a peaceful land for no reason(plus Nohr has been sending monsters to attack Hoshido, presumably just to spite them). Really, blood-family is the least important reason for him to side with Hoshido. When he "betrays" his Nohr siblings and tells them to withdraw, it's clear he still cares about them and doesn't want a full blown war to break out. Contrast this to when he betrays his Hoshido kin and tells them to withdraw (Where? Should they just allow the invasion to continue? They are on the defensive here.) which makes zero sense.

The stated reason for Kamui going back to Nohr is he wants to stop the war from within Nohr and confront Garon on his attempt to kill him (as if to mock Kamui's choice, the first thing Garon does upon Kamui's return is attempt to have Kamui executed...again). It really does come across short-sighted and egotistical on Kamui's part because Kamui doesn't actually have a plan to stop the war besides appeasing Garon by... doing exactly what Garon orders him to. Oops.

The choice was advertised as choosing between your two families, and that is basically what it boils down to. But there is no way to know that half your Nohrian siblings would die if you chose Hoshido. In the moment, your choices seem like either choosing to stop Garon and keeping yourself safe from execution, or ignoring everything you just learned and hanging around the evil tyrant until eventually he turns into something Marx won't feel bad about stabbing.

I like to pretend that Kamui chose Hoshido, then after watching Elise and Marx die, he went back in time and told himself choose Nohr, even if it seemed like the wrong choice, just to protect Elise. Then he was like, oh, crap, that was awful, and went back again to tell himself to choose neither side. He stuck with that one because Crimson is expendable and he's like totally a king of a magical kingdom now.

Edited August 17, 2015 by gayserbeam

[NekoKnight]

Wait, are you trying to argue with me or are you agreeing with what I said? I believe I just explained this, or were my arguments that poorly delivered?

Sorry, I meant to say I was agreeing and then I expanded on some points I felt needed mentioning.

tldr version, You have tons of reasons, including your immediate safety, to side with Hoshido but siding with Nohr is a horrible choice unless you are doing it to protect your Nohr siblings, which is still something you attempt to do when you side with Hoshido.

The choice was advertised as choosing between your two families, and that is basically what it boils down to.

The funny thing is, Kamui could have chosen Hoshido even if he didn't have any family there (which turns out to be true) and it still would have been a more moral and forward thinking choice. And when you choose Nohr, family is the only reason. It's not really a conflict of faction loyalty, it's siding with the good guys or the bad guys and your punch-clock-villain siblings.

[Sunwoo]

At this point, I think the only way to fix all of Fates' story issues is to nuke the entire thing and start over. Yes, all three paths. Even if Hoshido has a more coherent storyline than the other two, it's still guilty of not having believable "world-building" and places like Fuuma and Izumo are forgotten immediately after you pass by.

Hoshido could've been isolationist as hell, to the point of killing any people who tried to enter or leave its borders. Even if it were only in the past it'd still give Nohr justification in having friction with Hoshido. The game can barely keep track of all of the siblings, I really don't think it would've changed the story very much if only the two brothers were related to you and the two sisters weren't actually related to you. They'd still be plot-important, but not related to you so that it's less weird if the cutscenes suddenly forget they exist. The Nohr path could've had the war with Hoshido end between chapters 10 and 15 with the total defeat of Hoshido, and Garon's actions towards a defeated Hoshido that spurred the revolution from that point onwards. I'm not even going to touch the Invisible Kingdom because that has its own set of issues, but really -- what is even going on in all three games?

Even if Hoshido's plot is more coherent, it still has its problems. Maybe if we kicked the avatar and Aqua out of the story, and it was just about the four siblings on both sides, it might be a lot more interesting.

[Alazen]

I suggest that Nohr's shtick of having to be "reformed" be extended to cover both kingdoms if not the world. Nohr supposedly needing to be reformed really foreshadows Fates' Hoshido bias.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Alazen

[JupiterKnight]

There could also do some fixing of the whole Nohr is literally Mordor and Hoshido is paradise to remove the Hoshido bias as well.

Or actually do something with it instead of just having one be hell for the sake of it.