Fixing Fates story issues (spoilers)

[Yari]

Fake Garon being all about death and destruction draws attention to Hydra being another fellow out to destroy humanity and/or the world.

I ask yku, does Hydra actually have an ideology or cause like Medeus or the Loptyrians?

Hydra's motive is revenge because humanity forgot about him and some promise.

[Tsuky]

I'd actually be much less salty about Kamui not being related to the Hoshidans if they weren't allowed to marry the Hoshidans (or the Nohrians). I can't think of very many people in real who are like, "oh, we were raised as siblings/thought of you as our sibling for so long, but now that we know we're not related I suddenly want to bang you." What the hell? I can accept maybe one of them wanting to get with you (Camilla), but all eight of them? With no question? Or serious eyebrow raising from the other siblings if it happens? And the story glosses over their marriage and they continue talking to one another like they're siblings? Uhhhh?

This. I mean, I love my Lobster Lord, but in all seriousness, I wouldn't have minded the developers not allowing us to S-rank the siblings, if it means a better story. And please correct me if I'm wrong, but you only find out your true lineage in the main story in IK, right? You never find out you aren't related to the Hoshidan siblings if you play Conquest, and you only find out in Birthright via a sibling S-support (Speaking of those S-supports, in the Hoshido ones, the siblings tell you that they knew one way or another that you weren't related, and then Kamui just immediately returns their affection. Like, WHAT. So Kamui has been having incestuous thoughts all along? At least put the reveal in A-support or something, so that it's canonically included in the route's story and I can pretend that some time passes between A and S, and Kamui has had some time to process all the info and sort out his/her emotions. I know that S-supports are often contrived, but this is something else.)

The Hoshidan siblings not being related to you COULD have served as an interesting plot point (Kamui questioning his/her decision, etc.), but it's nothing more than an excuse to S-rank them all. Ah, wasted potential...

And the fact that they didn't change the lines of the main story to reflect a sibling S-support also bothers me. At least drop the onisan and oneesan, geez. Reminds me of one of Takumi's creepy Amie Lines. And in IK, if you marry Marx or Ryouma, do you just go your separate ways since you have to rule over Touma now and they have their own countries to rule? It would be nice to have that acknowledged (but if it is somehow acknowledged and I missed it, I'd be happy to know)...

Now that I think about it, this battle has never been explained or even mentioned at all, right? Why did they make it look seemingly important, yet it serves no purpose in the narrative?

I'm quite salty about this and a few other things shown in the first trailer. That battle actually looked very interesting, and I thought those two dudes in the middle of that painting would be somewhat significant. Nope, just a generic piece of history that's apparently only important enough to be appear briefly in one cutscene. And the giant golem that attacked the castle in the trailer? nah, pretty much as generic as your average risen in Awakening, with a larger attack range.

Now I just feel like I've been lied to in many ways whenever I go back and watch the first trailer :P

Edited August 2, 2015 by Tsuky

[NekoKnight]

This. I mean, I love my Lobster Lord, but in all seriousness, I wouldn't have minded the developers not allowing us to S-rank the siblings, if it means a better story. And please correct me if I'm wrong, but you only find out your true lineage in the main story in IK, right? You never find out you aren't related to the Hoshidan siblings if you play Conquest, and you only find out in Birthright via a sibling S-support (Speaking of those S-supports, in the Hoshido ones, the siblings tell you that they knew one way or another that you weren't related, and then Kamui just immediately returns their affection. Like, WHAT. So Kamui has been having incestuous thoughts all along? At least put the reveal in A-support or something, so that it's canonically included in the route's story and I can pretend that some time passes between A and S, and Kamui has had some time to process all the info and sort out his/her emotions. I know that S-supports are often contrived, but this is something else.)

The Hoshidan siblings not being related to you COULD have served as an interesting plot point (Kamui questioning his/her decision, etc.), but it's nothing more than an excuse to S-rank them all. Ah, wasted potential...

I think it's ironic that of all the sibling supports with Kamui, the only one that hints (to put it lightly) at one of the pair having non-sibling love is with Camilla and Kamui is weirded out and pushes her away. They could have done a lot to better set up those S-supports. For Takumi and Sakura, they could drop that it's hard to think of you as their sibling since they never met you before, and then the shift to romantic feelings would feel more natural and less incest-y.

[Fly or Die]

I think it's ironic that of all the sibling supports with Kamui, the only one that hints (to put it lightly) at one of the pair having non-sibling love is with Camilla and Kamui is weirded out and pushes her away. They could have done a lot to better set up those S-supports. For Takumi and Sakura, they could drop that it's hard to think of you as their sibling since they never met you before, and then the shift to romantic feelings would feel more natural and less incest-y.

I'm wayyyyyy more creeped out by Kamui's supports with his Nohr siblings than anything else. Like ... he thought they were his actual siblings until a few months/weeks ago? Except for Camilla, who apparently has always obsessed over Kamui.

And yes, Kamui's Hoshido sibling supports make it seem as though he is knowingly participating in a sketchy relationship. I think S-supports should have been locked until some plot event which revealed he's not related to them, instead of "whoops we're in love -- oh wait, we're not related!"

[JupiterKnight]

Fake Garon being all about death and destruction draws attention to Hydra being another fellow out to destroy humanity and/or the world.

I ask yku, does Hydra actually have an ideology or cause like Medeus or the Loptyrians?

Hydra is implied to be insane at this point and suffering from the degeneration.

But yes he does have some goal. Mankind forgot his existence and everything he did for them (The founding of both nations, the dragon's blood in their veins, likely those legendary weapons since Nohr Dragon uses an attack similar to Brunhilde) and there was some vow about how mankind should never forget.

So he decided to destroy the world and everyone in it!

There are also hints that Hydra in the past may have known what would happen to him due to seeing the future. So he's gone out of his way to set things up to kill himself when he's gone crazy. The prophecy bits that Aqua sings, the legendary weapons including Yato, Kamui's very existence, etc.

[B.Leu]

There are also hints that Hydra in the past may have known what would happen to him due to seeing the future. So he's gone out of his way to set things up to kill himself when he's gone crazy. The prophecy bits that Aqua sings, the legendary weapons including Yato, Kamui's very existence, etc.

I'm not sure if Hydra is Minato, Madara, or Kaguya.

That would mean that Hydra, instead of simply killing himself with Yatogami or whatever, planned his own death by his child's hand, all the while hidding in the invisible kingdom, that no one can talk about by the power of convenient plot device, that could only be discovered because Kamui was an naive worthless dumbass at that particular moment, and because the blue-haired plot device actually decided to talk for once, and for stupid reasons.

He also planned that Kamui would get Yatogami at that particular moment, just like he planned that every self-righteous unpredictable royal dumbass would be at Kamui's side so the Yatogami could become the Fire Emblem.

I'm not saying that against you, let's be clear, I'm looking too deep into this just to have a good laugh because seriously, dat plot. xD

Edited August 2, 2015 by B.Leu

[Party Moth]

Hydra is implied to be insane at this point and suffering from the degeneration.

But yes he does have some goal. Mankind forgot his existence and everything he did for them (The founding of both nations, the dragon's blood in their veins, likely those legendary weapons since Nohr Dragon uses an attack similar to Brunhilde) and there was some vow about how mankind should never forget.

So he decided to destroy the world and everyone in it!

There are also hints that Hydra in the past may have known what would happen to him due to seeing the future. So he's gone out of his way to set things up to kill himself when he's gone crazy. The prophecy bits that Aqua sings, the legendary weapons including Yato, Kamui's very existence, etc.

So, basically, a particularly awful version of Doma?

[Alazen]

To Party Moth: How is your outline of a Fates rewrite coming along? I'm just curious.

Anyway, my question about Hydra was rhetorical. Hydra's background and cause is a damn mess. He comes off as a twisted mishmash of Grima and Duma.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Alazen

[Party Moth]

To Party Moth: How is your outline of a Fates rewrite coming along? I'm just curious.

Anyway, my question about Hydra was rhetorical. Hydra's background and cause is a damn mess. He comes off as a twisted mishmash of Grima and Duma.

It's coming along about as quickly as I can put it together (about 3,000 words at the moment). Currently looking into the mythological references present in the game such as the Wǔ Xíng and how they can be played with.

[Alazen]

Currently, have you decided what to do about the "WE NOT BLOOD RELATE" twist? Does your rewrite even have Hydra?

[Party Moth]

Currently, have you decided what to do about the "WE NOT BLOOD RELATE" twist? Does your rewrite even have Hydra?

Right now, I'm settled on Sakura and Takumi being half-siblings with Kamui, as Kamui needs to have at least some connection through bloodline. Kamui's relation to Ryouma and Hinoka is not set in stone, and largely relies on where I take Mikoto's character arc.

Hydra is currently set to be included, but his execution is one of the aspects that's taking more time to plan out. He's a mess as portrayed in-game, though I do like some of the nuances present (such as each follower being symbolic of his many heads and namesake).

[Alazen]

What about making Hoshido have more shady aspects to it? Or toning down Nohr's "evilness"?

[Party Moth]

Sorry for the late reply; the outline is coming along. Biggest roadblock currently is due to pending Invisible Kingdom DLC.

I can give a short answer to that here, but the outline would explain it more in-depth. To give a basic summary, Kamui faces culture shock in Hoshido and while some of the siblings try to help out with integrating into the culture, the rest of the Hoshidans are less friendly about it as they are less social in general. There's also latent bigotry that becomes more and more present the closer to the Nohrian capital they go.

Nohr, on the other hand, is more of a Thracia callback, and strong camaraderie amongst the lower classes is one of the ways that they cope with the poor crops. While there are often good intentions amongst the ill actions of the nobility, Kamui must become aware of the wolves amongst the flock or suffer the consequences.

Both are designed to have pros and cons with the concept of Yin and Yang in mind, though occasionally there are overlaps that connect the two societies. Can't have them be the perfect exact opposites of each other, after all.

[Yari]

Sorry for the late reply; the outline is coming along. Biggest roadblock currently is due to pending Invisible Kingdom DLC.

I can give a short answer to that here, but the outline would explain it more in-depth. To give a basic summary, Kamui faces culture shock in Hoshido and while some of the siblings try to help out with integrating into the culture, the rest of the Hoshidans are less friendly about it as they are less social in general. There's also latent bigotry that becomes more and more present the closer to the Nohrian capital they go.

Nohr, on the other hand, is more of a Thracia callback, and strong camaraderie amongst the lower classes is one of the ways that they cope with the poor crops. While there are often good intentions amongst the ill actions of the nobility, Kamui must become aware of the wolves amongst the flock or suffer the consequences.

Both are designed to have pros and cons with the concept of Yin and Yang in mind, though occasionally there are overlaps that connect the two societies. Can't have them be the perfect exact opposites of each other, after all.

This somehow reminds me of my Fates fanfic outline. I have similar ideas to yours. My own outline is coming along slowly mostly because I find it hard to write down my ideas and organize them. However my third path outline is pretty much done already but I won't publish because it has a lot of spoilers for the fanfic.

[Taka-kun]

Sorry for the late reply; the outline is coming along. Biggest roadblock currently is due to pending Invisible Kingdom DLC.

I can give a short answer to that here, but the outline would explain it more in-depth. To give a basic summary, Kamui faces culture shock in Hoshido and while some of the siblings try to help out with integrating into the culture, the rest of the Hoshidans are less friendly about it as they are less social in general. There's also latent bigotry that becomes more and more present the closer to the Nohrian capital they go.

Nohr, on the other hand, is more of a Thracia callback, and strong camaraderie amongst the lower classes is one of the ways that they cope with the poor crops. While there are often good intentions amongst the ill actions of the nobility, Kamui must become aware of the wolves amongst the flock or suffer the consequences.

Both are designed to have pros and cons with the concept of Yin and Yang in mind, though occasionally there are overlaps that connect the two societies. Can't have them be the perfect exact opposites of each other, after all.

That sounds like a good outline with solid concepts (actually those themes is what IS would go for but alas).

[Alazen]

We should discuss what Kamui's role is, both narratively and "in-setting" as it's called.

Over at another thread, a poster pointed out that Kamui is always younger than two of his siblings and is either naive or less experienced than every sibling who isn't a sister. And yet he's still treated as if he's the actual leader of the playable army. Place it within context of his treatment throughout Fates (such as how Takumi is portrayed as being so wrong for his contempt towards Kamui that he gets a hatred monster) and we have a problem.

Sir Frederick suggested making Kamui more akin to Blazing Blade's Mark/Morgan in that he's or she's an observer and assistant to Ryoma and Marx throughout their respective Paths.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Alazen

[Neofranky]

Isn't it sad when AWAKENING of all Fire Emblem games has a better written story than Fates? Keep in mind we will pay around 80 dollars for this and we will somehow like it regardless...

[Taka-kun]

We should discuss what Kamui's role is, both narratively and "in-setting" as it's called.

Over at another thread, a poster pointed out that Kamui is always younger than two of his siblings and is either naive or less experienced than every sibling who isn't a sister. And yet he's still treated as if he's the actual leader of the playable army. Place it within context of his treatment throughout Fates (such as how Takumi is portrayed as being so wrong for his contempt towards Kamui that he gets a hatred monster) and we have a problem.

Sir Frederick suggested making Kamui more akin to Blazing Blade's Mark/Morgan in that he's or she's an observer and assistant to Ryoma and Marx throughout their respective Paths.

One method I would prefer is making Kamui have latent skills, just waiting to be awakened. IIRC, Ryoma and Marx are the last of the siblings to join so Kamui is given effective command of whatever force they have. During the course of the story, they should develop their abilities to the point that they are trusted enough to be given overall command (or at least as a second-in-command).

[Yari]

Good to know people notice Kamui has to much power over the army right in the beggining of the story. Because I have two Kamuis I decided to write down how they fit in the army they're in, construtive criticism is welcome:

Mamui (Nohr side):He is intelingent, kind and strong but meek and lacks confidence. He will grow out of it but leadership is not for him. He's better as a second in comand.

Femui (Hoshido side):She has the makings of a leader but is aggresive and pushy. She is ready to make the hard choices but needs to grow to be able to be a good leader.

[Taka-kun]

In my mind's eye, Ryoma/Xander has the overall command of the whole army (we are talking about a whole nation's army here) while Kamui, on either side, leads a special detachment, kinda like the Shepherds in Awakening. That's where you have all the playable characters in and perhaps throw in a few generics as well. Should Ryoma/Xander join them, it's not hard to accept that the elder brother defer command to Kamui, who knows the soldiers under their command much more.

[Yari]

I'll probably end up putting both Kamuis as leader in the beggining of the story because neither Ryoma nor Xander are there to lead. But neither of them has the experience or capacity to lead an army that early. I'll do it because I want to show that putting two people who were never taught how to lead a army is a terrible idea. Main charater or not it's not realistic for it to work out fine like in game.

[NekoKnight]

One method I would prefer is making Kamui have latent skills, just waiting to be awakened. IIRC, Ryoma and Marx are the last of the siblings to join so Kamui is given effective command of whatever force they have. During the course of the story, they should develop their abilities to the point that they are trusted enough to be given overall command (or at least as a second-in-command).

In my mind's eye, Ryoma/Xander has the overall command of the whole army (we are talking about a whole nation's army here) while Kamui, on either side, leads a special detachment, kinda like the Shepherds in Awakening. That's where you have all the playable characters in and perhaps throw in a few generics as well. Should Ryoma/Xander join them, it's not hard to accept that the elder brother defer command to Kamui, who knows the soldiers under their command much more.

I don't think this exactly works, at least how it is presented in the actual game. Camilla and Hinoka are still older than Kamui so they have seniority and you can't even say Kamui got the lead because of their gender since they can be a girl. Even discounting age, Takumi and Leon have more combat and (arguably more important) world experience so they too should be in charge before Kamui. Putting Kamui in charge is like asking a person who has never been on a hike to be your tour guide to Mount Everest.

As far as the "special attachment" is concerned unless Marx and Ryoma's forces were wiped out by the time you meet them, it can be assumed you merge into their army and not the other way around. For proud and experienced battle commanders like the older siblings, it's hard to imagine them letting their younger sibling stay in charge after they join.

"Latent abilities" (it's true Kamui has dragon blood but the game DOESN'T use that as an excuse) seems like a mary sue way of pushing someone into authority despite having not earned it. What they could do is have the next oldest sibling in your group (barring Kamui for the above reasons) be the official leader of the army but keep Kamui on the war counsel out of respect for the practical uses he'd have on the battlefield. In fact, if they rewrote the story so that only Kamui could use Dragon Vein, Kamui WOULD add something that no one else could do.

[Yari]

I don't think this exactly works, at least how it is presented in the actual game. Camilla and Hinoka are still older than Kamui so they have seniority and you can't even say Kamui got the lead because of their gender since they can be a girl. Even discounting age, Takumi and Leon have more combat and (arguably more important) world experience so they too should be in charge before Kamui. Putting Kamui in charge is like asking a person who has never been on a hike to be your tour guide to Mount Everest.

As far as the "special attachment" is concerned unless Marx and Ryoma's forces were wiped out by the time you meet them, it can be assumed you merge into their army and not the other way around. For proud and experienced battle commanders like the older siblings, it's hard to imagine them letting their younger sibling stay in charge after they join.

"Latent abilities" (it's true Kamui has dragon blood but the game DOESN'T use that as an excuse) seems like a mary sue way of pushing someone into authority despite having not earned it. What they could do is have the next oldest sibling in your group (barring Kamui for the above reasons) be the official leader of the army but keep Kamui on the war counsel out of respect for the practical uses he'd have on the battlefield. In fact, if they rewrote the story so that only Kamui could use Dragon Vein, Kamui WOULD add something that no one else could do.

Honestly I don't think any of the sibling baring Ryoma and Xander have leadership qualities. I can't see anything at all that could make Camilla, Hinoka, Leo and Takumi good leaders but that might just be me.

Obviously Ryoma and Xander should stay in charge they have leadership qualities and experience all of the other lack.

That would make way more sense than anything the story throws at us if I may be completely honest.

[Taka-kun]

I don't think this exactly works, at least how it is presented in the actual game. Camilla and Hinoka are still older than Kamui so they have seniority and you can't even say Kamui got the lead because of their gender since they can be a girl. Even discounting age, Takumi and Leon have more combat and (arguably more important) world experience so they too should be in charge before Kamui. Putting Kamui in charge is like asking a person who has never been on a hike to be your tour guide to Mount Everest.

As far as the "special attachment" is concerned unless Marx and Ryoma's forces were wiped out by the time you meet them, it can be assumed you merge into their army and not the other way around. For proud and experienced battle commanders like the older siblings, it's hard to imagine them letting their younger sibling stay in charge after they join.

"Latent abilities" (it's true Kamui has dragon blood but the game DOESN'T use that as an excuse) seems like a mary sue way of pushing someone into authority despite having not earned it. What they could do is have the next oldest sibling in your group (barring Kamui for the above reasons) be the official leader of the army but keep Kamui on the war counsel out of respect for the practical uses he'd have on the battlefield. In fact, if they rewrote the story so that only Kamui could use Dragon Vein, Kamui WOULD add something that no one else could do.

Yeah, I can see the issue of seniority being a problem, unless there is a good reason why Camilla and Hinoka aren't in command.

Regarding the last point, I would say it depends. Is there any indication at all in the game that Kamui is a born conqueror? Both in fiction and in history, there is the prevalent theme of Young Conqueror where a son or younger member of a certain wealthy house is entirely bypassed and dismissed, and when circumstances force them to command in the field, they are doing a phenomenal job (incidentially, such stories tend to be my favorites).

EDIT: I am not talking about special powers, they just simply have the drive and skill for it.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Taka-kun

[Alisa180]

On the issue of why Kamui is the leader over Ryoma and Xander: In fact, in the Birthrish route, Ryouma was believed to have been possibly captured for the first part of the story, a plot point that comes up again in the Invisible Kingdom route. Out of the three routes, though, I'd say Birthright has the least justification for Corrin being the leader.

In Conquest, Corrin performs several missions under Garon's orders, and since its their mission, that sort of makes them the leader by default. Around the point Xander joins, Corrin begins pressing the 'King Garon is not whom he seems' issue, and since that was their plan, they naturally take the lead on it.

In the Invisible Kingdom route, Corrin is trying to unite the two sides, and since there's still tension between the Nohrians and Hoshidans (best seen by Xander and Ryoma's Support), that makes them the best leader of the united army. IK probably has the most justification out of the three routes for Corrin being the leader, since they specifically go around and recruit the members of their army in a manner more traditional to previous FE lords. In contrast, in the other routes, they tend to be 'given' a good chunk of their units. In both Conquest and Birthright, the subordinates of their siblings at a couple points join Corrin before the siblings themselves, on the latter's orders.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Alisa180