Emperor Hardin Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Heck, in Awakening the Plegian War kicks off because Gangrel desired the Fire Emblem (among other things), and toward the end we find out that not only can it be used to summon Naga, the Big Good of the setting, it can ALSO be used to summon Grima, the Big Bad. Compare these to Fates' Fire Emblem. I'll end that rant here. I hope I got the point across. The use of the Fire Emblem to summon Naga, and to summon Grima was one of the many plotholes in Awakening as it completely contradicts the actual purpose of the emblem as defined in Mystery. Basically its a point against Awakening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWerdna Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 (edited) The use of the Fire Emblem to summon Naga, and to summon Grima was one of the many plotholes in Awakening as it completely contradicts the actual purpose of the emblem as defined in Mystery. Basically its a point against Awakening. Not if you subscribe to the theory that Grima is some sort of amalgamation between all the dragons previously sealed away. You could say it's old purpose no longer worked, with how it's used now being devised specifically to defeat Grima the first time.Also it wasn't used to summon Grima. It was used to unseal Grima. Basically it could be used to also undo the thing it normally is used for. Edited July 28, 2015 by TheWerdna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor Hardin Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Not if you subscribe to the theory that Grima is some sort of amalgamation between all the dragons previously sealed away. You could say it's old purpose no longer worked, with how it's used now being devised specifically to defeat Grima the first time. That makes zero sense for a variety of reasons. For one, Grima has consciousness and an identity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWerdna Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 That makes zero sense for a variety of reasons. For one, Grima has consciousness and an identity. and yet in the Japanese version he sounds like multiple people talking at once. Honestly, unlike Fates, the majority of Awakening's plot holes and story issues come from nothing being explained. It's actually really easy to fill in the gaps with little effort. fates on the other hand explains things, and all of the explanations are dumb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor Hardin Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 (edited) and yet in the Japanese version he sounds like multiple people talking at once. Honestly, unlike Fates, the majority of Awakening's plot holes and story issues come from nothing being explained. It's actually really easy to fill in the gaps with little effort. fates on the other hand explains things, and all of the explanations are dumb. His and Avatar's voice. No, it is extremely explict that Degenerated Dragons have no sentience left, they're just mindless beasts. Tiki would've been like them as well if the Emblem wasn't re-assembled. The merging theory is just a silly fan idea with no basis. Its clear the writers had no idea on Grima's backstory, just like they had no idea on Naga being around, Valm's religion being a mess, and all the other plotholes. Even if he was, that in no way explains why the Emblem is used to summon him, or Naga. Fates at least is in its own world with its own set of rules. Edited July 28, 2015 by Emperor Hardin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWerdna Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 His and Avatar's voice. No, it is extremely explict that Degenerated Dragons have no sentience left, they're just mindless beasts. Tiki would've been like them as well if the Emblem wasn't re-assembled. The merging theory is just a silly fan idea with no basis. Its clear the writers had no idea on Grima's backstory, just like they had no idea on Naga being around, Valm's religion being a mess, and all the other plotholes. Even if he was, that in no way explains why the Emblem is used to summon him, or Naga. Fates at least is in its own world with its own set of rules. As I said in the post I edited, the fire emblem never was used to "summon him". Instead it was used to unseal him from inside the Dragon table. You know, undo the thing it is normally does. I personally have a more elaborate explanation for the whole Grima thing, but this is really not the thread for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor Hardin Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 As I said in the post I edited, the fire emblem never was used to "summon him". Instead it was used to unseal him from inside the Dragon table. You know, undo the thing it is normally does. I personally have a more elaborate explanation for the whole Grima thing, but this is really not the thread for it. It was already broken apart to begin with, yet for some reason Validar completes it himself. Go ahead, let me hear it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alisa180 Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 (edited) The use of the Fire Emblem to summon Naga, and to summon Grima was one of the many plotholes in Awakening as it completely contradicts the actual purpose of the emblem as defined in Mystery. Basically its a point against Awakening. You missed the point. The point was the Fire Emblem, its in many forms across several games, has traditionally been as much a source of conflict as it has a source of resolution. Mystery wasn't immune either. One of the Shield of Seals Gemstones, the Darksphere, was responsible for a large part of the game by virute of corrupting Hardin. ...Wait, fuck. I'm looking at the FE wiki, and it mentions the Darksphere is known as Sable in Awakening, and was possessed by Plegia. Assuming the thing still possess the power to corrupt, then I wonder...That's something for the Awakening part of the forum, though. Honestly, Fates' take on the Fire Emblem is perhaps my biggest complaint about the story. Because I'm used to the Fire Emblem being this important McGuffin either directly or indirectly responsible for at least half the plot. Its traditionally been one of those examples of a McGuffin done *right.* Knowing the whole purpose of the Fire Emblem in Fates was to serve as the 'ultimate plot resolution device'.... Yeah, sorry, Awakening's plot may have issues but I think its handling of that was done better. Because again, Awakening's Fire Emblem causes conflict as much as it resolves it. Edited July 28, 2015 by Alisa180 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor Hardin Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 You missed the point. The point was the Fire Emblem, its in many forms across several games, has traditionally been as much a source of conflict as it has a source of resolution. Mystery wasn't immune either. One of the Shield of Seals Gemstones, the Darksphere, was responsible for a large part of the game by virute of corrupting Hardin. ...Wait, fuck. I'm looking at the FE wiki, and it mentions the Darksphere is known as Sable in Awakening, and was possessed by Plegia. Assuming the thing still possess the power to corrupt, then I wonder...That's something for the Awakening part of the forum, though. Honestly, Fates' take on the Fire Emblem is perhaps my biggest complaint about the story. Because I'm used to the Fire Emblem being this important McGuffin either directly or indirectly responsible for at least half the plot. Its traditionally been one of those examples of a McGuffin done *right.* Knowing the whole purpose of the Fire Emblem in Fates was to serve as the 'ultimate plot resolution device'.... Yeah, sorry, Awakening's plot may have issues but I think its handling of that was done better. Because again, it causes conflict as much as it resolves it. Fair enough. Awakening's use of the Emblem would've been acceptable if it was a different universe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWerdna Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 It was already broken apart to begin with, yet for some reason Validar completes it himself. Go ahead, let me hear it. Before I give the theory, I will admit that this theory is a bit contrieved and very "fanfictiony". I would also agree 100% that its clear IS has no actual backstory in mind. This is just a fan theory that makes some marginal sense to me. I am going to keep this as concise as I can, since otherwise this could turn into a massive wall of text. Basically, the theory is based around Awakening's story tying in heavily to the story of FE4 Woah, woah, woah, pitch forks down, hear me out on this one. The Jugdrel games are confirmed to exist in the same universe as FE1, 2, 3, their remakes, and Awakening. There is also the fact that the villain of that game, Loptyr, has some scary simularities to how Grima is depicted in Awakening. He is tied to a mortal bloodline, check. He has a cult that worships him and always seeks to bring about his return when hes killed, check. He can come back to life as long as someone with a strong enough connection to his blood exists, check. There's also the fact that he and his cult apparently originated from Akaneia, you know, the place half of Awakening takes place. The theory goes that some point following FE4's events, his cult once again managed to breed a vessil with major Loptyr blood (since by the end of FE4, there were still people with minor Loptyr blood), he returns, goes back to Akaneia, gain posession of the fire emblem, and merges with/consumes the power of all the dragons sealed away in the first place, this fused entity being Grima. At this point the Fire Emblem would have been rendered useless in its original function, this new entity would just be too strong to simply seal away. However, the Fire Emblem itself still possessess an immense amount of power, and so a new use for it was devised (probably by Naga, the reason she is around being a massive can of worms I am not going to get into here) to defeat Grima. It would be used to empower Falchion to be capable of killing Grima's physical form, and which point the Emblem could seal his spirit inside the Dragon Table. This would explain why the Fire Emblem works differently now, it was altered to fit the new purpose for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor Hardin Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Before I give the theory, I will admit that this theory is a bit contrieved and very "fanfictiony". I would also agree 100% that its clear IS has no actual backstory in mind. This is just a fan theory that makes some marginal sense to me. I am going to keep this as concise as I can, since otherwise this could turn into a massive wall of text. Basically, the theory is based around Awakening's story tying in heavily to the story of FE4 Woah, woah, woah, pitch forks down, hear me out on this one. The Jugdrel games are confirmed to exist in the same universe as FE1, 2, 3, their remakes, and Awakening. There is also the fact that the villain of that game, Loptyr, has some scary simularities to how Grima is depicted in Awakening. He is tied to a mortal bloodline, check. He has a cult that worships him and always seeks to bring about his return when hes killed, check. He can come back to life as long as someone with a strong enough connection to his blood exists, check. There's also the fact that he and his cult apparently originated from Akaneia, you know, the place half of Awakening takes place. The theory goes that some point following FE4's events, his cult once again managed to breed a vessil with major Loptyr blood (since by the end of FE4, there were still people with minor Loptyr blood), he returns, goes back to Akaneia, gain posession of the fire emblem, and merges with/consumes the power of all the dragons sealed away in the first place, this fused entity being Grima. At this point the Fire Emblem would have been rendered useless in its original function, this new entity would just be too strong to simply seal away. However, the Fire Emblem itself still possessess an immense amount of power, and so a new use for it was devised (probably by Naga, the reason she is around being a massive can of worms I am not going to get into here) to defeat Grima. It would be used to empower Falchion to be capable of killing Grima's physical form, and which point the Emblem could seal his spirit inside the Dragon Table. This would explain why the Fire Emblem works differently now, it was altered to fit the new purpose for it. While I don't think its likely, I will say Grima being a renamed Loptyr would make him more acceptable to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWerdna Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 (edited) While I don't think its likely, I will say Grima being a renamed Loptyr would make him more acceptable to me. Oh, I agree that its not very likely as canon (not that I think IS will ever actually explain Grima.) But its a headcanon that allows me to sleep at night without being driven to insanity by how it otherwise makes zero sense. Edited July 28, 2015 by TheWerdna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JupiterKnight Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) You missed the point. The point was the Fire Emblem, its in many forms across several games, has traditionally been as much a source of conflict as it has a source of resolution. Mystery wasn't immune either. One of the Shield of Seals Gemstones, the Darksphere, was responsible for a large part of the game by virute of corrupting Hardin. ...Wait, fuck. I'm looking at the FE wiki, and it mentions the Darksphere is known as Sable in Awakening, and was possessed by Plegia. Assuming the thing still possess the power to corrupt, then I wonder...That's something for the Awakening part of the forum, though. Honestly, Fates' take on the Fire Emblem is perhaps my biggest complaint about the story. Because I'm used to the Fire Emblem being this important McGuffin either directly or indirectly responsible for at least half the plot. Its traditionally been one of those examples of a McGuffin done *right.* Knowing the whole purpose of the Fire Emblem in Fates was to serve as the 'ultimate plot resolution device'.... Yeah, sorry, Awakening's plot may have issues but I think its handling of that was done better. Because again, Awakening's Fire Emblem causes conflict as much as it resolves it. The Fire Emblem appeared to be tied to Anankos just like a lot of things in the game are. Including the prophecies that are believed to come from Anankos himself. Including the one about the Fire Emblem. Even the legendary weapons used by the male siblings originate from him in some way. A lot of their world is tied to his influence in the past. Not to mention the future considering he shows up at the Mila Tree in the Invisible History screenshots and ask Ingo, Owain, and Severa if they're ready. And that Invisible Soldiers appeared and tried to deal with Chrom before he found Robin in the Awakening one. Edited July 29, 2015 by JupiterKnight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor Hardin Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Did they really use the Mila tree again, and not just the background? Why do they have to keep shoving the poor Mila tree into things it has nothing to do with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JupiterKnight Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 It looks like the Mila Tree form what i saw and the kids were in their Awakening outfits, so I imagine it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor Hardin Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 It looks like the Mila Tree form what i saw and the kids were in their Awakening outfits, so I imagine it was. I hope it wasn't. No more messing with Gaiden's plot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostyFireMage Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) Depends on what you want to do. Awakening's story was easy to stretch out for example, as it didn't really have any concept of time. The war against Walhart could have easily been 9 months or 9 years. I doubt characters like Ricken or Donnel would look the same in 9 years also did everyone have incredibly high standards for the Fates narrative or something? I wasn't necessarily expecting Final Fantasy Tactics here Edited July 29, 2015 by FrostyFireMage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepper Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I doubt characters like Ricken or Donnel would look the same in 9 years also did everyone have incredibly high standards for the Fates narrative or something? I wasn't necessarily expecting Final Fantasy Tactics here No I didn't expect it be god tier but still its not even decent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostyFireMage Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 so it's basically Awakening tier...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepper Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 so it's basically Awakening tier...? worse cause the cause Awakening was somewhat coherent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWerdna Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 so it's basically Awakening tier...? Worse since Awakening just glossed over everything and never explored ideas. Fates tries to do those things, and manages to do so stupidly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepper Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Worse since Awakening just glossed over everything and never explored ideas. Fates tries to do those things, and manages to do so stupidly. Like how the hell does Aqua get into IK in the Nohr path when in IK path she says Kamui and her can only get into it when both nations are united. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alisa180 Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) so it's basically Awakening tier...? I'd say its worse. It is NOT a good sign when a story nulifies its own premise (choose between the family you were raised with, or your blood family. Except you aren't actually related to the latter.) The handling of the Fire Emblem is another symptom which I've complained about. JupiterKnight says the FE was tied to Anakos, but the key thing here is that we never see this manifest or impact the main plot in any meaningful way. The most we get is some vague 'influence' stuff that's not even going to be fully explained until the DLC releases. So my complaint about how the Fire Emblem was 'effectively relegated to an 11th hour superpower for the protagonist' still stands. Also, the fact we need DLC to learn stuff like that is another bad sign, since that kind of thing should have been integrated in the main plot. And speaking of the DLC, I really wish the Invisible Kingdom path wasn't sold seperately. I have zero interest in either the Conquest or Birthright games, but I have lots of interest in the IK storyline and game. I am not impressed with the idea that I'll have to buy one of those two paths then pay AGAIN in order to get the path I actually want. I'll probably be skipping out on this game altogether as a result, unless something changes. Also Awakening is one of my favorite stories in a while by default thanks to having one of my favorite examples of close boy-girl friendships in the form of an umarried F!Robin and Chrom so there's that too. Edited July 30, 2015 by Alisa180 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alazen Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) Like I said, I wouldn't call Fates' narrative better than ME3's. At least you don't need DLC to stop the Reapers. Edited July 30, 2015 by Alazen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeoandReo Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Like how the hell does Aqua get into IK in the Nohr path when in IK path she says Kamui and her can only get into it when both nations are united. I haven't been paying close attention to the storyline, but after they go to the IK in Nohr, is it referred to ever again in the Nohr storyline? It seems like it would be a little difficult to work in, since as far as I'm aware the rest of the campaign takes place mostly in Hoshido. Partly if not entirely because of the curse. I guess talking about the story expectations, I did expect a bit more particularly from the whole 'change Nohr from the inside' part, but I'm honestly not sure what I was expecting in hindsight. If there's one thing I've learned from when FE started to use avatars, it's that it gives me a free pass to basically ignore the story since I always end up disappointed with how they're handled. From what I've seen so far, I'm not impressed with how Kamui was integrated. Still gonna buy it when it drops in NA though. Nohr's characters are aggressively interesting enough for me to pick it up, and I want to try PvP out a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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