TheWerdna Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 What does fans (at least here) want anyway? I know I have pretty extreme desires, that will probably be never realized in FE (I loved Geneaology and the Tellius saga though), but what kind of story did fans want to see? I have heard that pairings harm the setting and story, yet it's still a widely popular feature (going by how many that has waifu/husbando on their signature). I am alright with pairings. What should have not happened however, is the 2ed gens. They just do not fit the story and setting they were going with here. In Awakening they were one of my favorite parts of the game, but here they feel so forced. Also, they could just as easily give game-play benefits to S supports without children. In fact, Fates has it, they are called Marriage seals. Just make it next game so characters can change to either of their spouses classes and you have a decent amount of flexibility and room to play with builds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DanMan Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I'm confused, hasn't that been relatively consistent throghout the series? I've never gotten a really "epic" sense from the series' writing, and if you ask me, Blazing Sword's story is not much better than Fates; every long-running series has its ups and downs. That said, it does worry me when they say things like "an anime you can live in", and I hope they move away from that idea in Fire Emblem 15. Dude. That's the main goal of the games now. And the Avatar is apparently a series staple that couldn't be cut from Fates (despite only really appearing in two games). And as for the story, did the big Japanese reviewers complain about it? From what we've seen, no. And the western reviewers are either going to be hype-blinded or get paid off by advertisements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thane Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Yes, but it wasn't the only thing in the series. FE4 (which we all love to compare all future games with) involves the ambitions of the noble houses because they wanted power, which Alvis (the pawn of Manfroy) manipulated. FE9 has Ashnard, while paving his way to get the medallion and the harbringer of destruction, destroy the class system and creating meritocracy. FE10 had the corrupt senate creating chaos to keep themselves in power. I don't know much about Elibe and Magvel, but IIRC, Bern was much stronger and unified compared to Lycia and Etruria, which had bickering nobles. The token cult of the dark dragon mainly manipulated from the shadows, toying with men's ambitions for their own gains (and doing so skillfully). Heck, even Awakening had shades of this. Neither Gangrel nor Walhart worked for Grima's ressurection, Gangrel was consumed by his quest for vengeance and Walhart was motivated by creating a strong Valmese Empire, a successor to Alm's and Celica's. We can deduce that Valm had infighting as dukes and dynasts refused to work together even though a larger threat loomed over them. What do we have in Fates? The only one I see that has personal goals separate from the will of the gods is Fuma Kotaro. The tribes bow to the will of the Yatogami and Nohr as a whole is moved only by Garon, who wields the will of their god. Even Macbeth and Ganz do little besides "following orders". Oh I definitely agree that Fates would've been better served had there been more content other than "magical sword and big bad dragon", something I think the majority of us expected after all the story hype. However, while I can't comment on Genealogy of the Holy War (which everyone raves about, I really have to play it somehow), I'm not sure the other examples hold up due to Fire Emblem's very average writing when it comes to more complex themes. Ashnard being a social darwinist felt like a last ditch effort to give him some depth. If I recall, he felt more insane than being guided by his own twisted convictions; Ike even asks him what in the world he's talking about when they fight, but is of course given no explanation. As for Blazing Sword, the less I talk about that game's story the better. I wish to forget all of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Now as far as I am concerned, the masskilling is not important either. However the war itself is important because there needs to be a trigger for the awakening of the goddesses. But there is no way for the script to justify that the combined forces of the Laguz Alliance, the Begnion Central Army and the Crimean army wouldn't just walk all over the Daein army unless Micaiah evens the odds somehow because the strengths of the individual armies has been established all the way back in PoR, with Begnion's army alone being the most powerful military force on Tellius by far. So Micaiah needed to be handed a way to deal a devastating blow to them. Awakening on the other hand, has only brought up the superiority of the Valm army in the very same chapter as the burnings, so continuity is not the reason that this event had to happen. Simply remove that statement and there is no longer a reason for a massacre. I just said about Robin's act that the burnings served no purpose in the story and was were merely fixing the problem of the day and didn't need to happen for anything. The same is not true for Micaiah's action. The story would have to be heavily rewritten if Micaiah's attack or a similar even didn't happen because of continuity with the previous game. It's not without purpose or a problem of the day. Telling the player that they are facing a powerful foe is a tension builder. Valm having a superior army is not a plot point that is discarded after the naval battle. It's brought up in a later chapter that the only hope they have of winning (even after a miraculous naval victory) is engaging half the army. That's all the continuity you need. I'm really playing the devil's advocate here. There are so many plot holes in Awakening but the points you bring up are not done significantly worse than in other games such as Radiant Dawn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taka-kun Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I feel like we are digging out the flaws of the FE series as a whole here. But has any FE game had a full narrative, like say the Final Fantasy and the Tales Of series (I am going by memory here, been awhile since I played either of the series)? Since the FE games has the support system, it feels like the players have to invest their time in finding out more about the characters and the world around them. The question is whether the support contribute to more of the characters' history and touches upon the world's as well, or if it's just some dorky shenaningans. In Awakening (which is the FE game I played the most, hence the constant reference back to it), Rosanne was mentioned once in the story proper, but got deeper (albeit not that deep) exploration in Virion's and Cherche's supports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thane Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) I feel like we are digging out the flaws of the FE series as a whole here. But has any FE game had a full narrative, like say the Final Fantasy and the Tales Of series (I am going by memory here, been awhile since I played either of the series)? Since the FE games has the support system, it feels like the players have to invest their time in finding out more about the characters and the world around them. The question is whether the support contribute to more of the characters' history and touches upon the world's as well, or if it's just some dorky shenaningans. In Awakening (which is the FE game I played the most, hence the constant reference back to it), Rosanne was mentioned once in the story proper, but got deeper (albeit not that deep) exploration in Virion's and Cherche's supports. Older installments of the series are praised nonstop, at least in this part of the forum, so it feels nice to actually have the opportunity to point out that they're not as brilliant as some people seem to remember them. But you're right. However, the support system is more or less necessary to flesh out the characters since you can't have 60+ playable characters interact in the main story, especially since the game is built around the fact that the less important ones can die during battle. The problem is that worldbuilding, interesting main characters and villains' personalities and a cohesive, well-told plot are elements that should be part of the main story, yet according to me, the Fire Emblem games I've played usually fall short here. The support system can't fix all that. Edited July 30, 2015 by Thane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) Genealogy's story is interesting but the execution is terrible. It is literally only remembered for the big plot twist, everything else is just so bland. The main issue with Awakening is that it tried to do too much and was so disjointed, disconnected, and generally not thrown together well. It's writing by itself is so bad because it has all the problems that Fates apparently has, but doesn't even try (very hard) to make us care about what's happening, nor does it even attempt to explain a lot of its major stuff and on the few occaasions it can be bothered to, it's hidden in optional dialogues. Like, you wouldn't know Gangrel's or Walhart's real motivations unless you do their supports. It just feels like a bunch of random stuff happening for no real reason, which is expected for a rough first deaft but not as the finalized story. I think the constant FE references really hurt it too becauae it introduces big plot holes but also just feels really self-conscious and takes you out of the narrative. Radiant Dawn's writing is also freuuently negatively compared to as well but it's writing and story are inconsistent in quality. Its highs are some of the best in the series; Part 2 is truly excellent, Elincia and Skrimir have some of the best character arcs, Micaiah is actually interesting in that she has to make difficult choices, and a lot of stuff in Part 3 and 4 had proper build up all the way back in PoR (even the Blood Pact nonsense). Its main problems were the Blood Pact BS and the Begnion/Laguz conflict is laughably flimtty, plus Ike steals screentime from Micaiah (wbo really needed it) and Ike is one of the most boring, obnoxiously perfect, and dull protagonists in the series. So it has really big highs but its lows are some of the lowest in the series. Like, i don't mind a simple narrative if it's executed well; Sacred stones is the best written despite the cliched premose but it makes the most of it. Fates promised a strong narrative but made most of the same mistakes Awakening did, with DLC BS thrown in. I wasn't expecting Richard III or anything but I don't something on par with Tactics Ogre was unreasonable to assume. Edited July 30, 2015 by Dark Sage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thane Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Genealogy's story is interesting but the execution is terrible. It is literally only remembered for the big plot twist, everything else is just so bland. I believe that's literally the first time I've seen anyone say something even slightly negative about Genealogy of the Holy War; people here hype it up more than Intelligent Systems hyped up Fates. As for Awakening, I also believe it suffered because the developers were afraid it'd be their last game, so they wanted to pay homage to earlier installments. That said, I still find Awakening's sloppy story better than both Fates' and Blazing Sword's since it feels less...convoluted. Fates repeats more or less every single Awakening mistake but, like you said, with DLC paywalls, more fan service, even less worldbuilding and far more stupid characters we're supposed to care about - you can hate Chrom and Robin all you want, but at least they never acted like the Nohrian siblings, Azura and Kamui in Conquest. It also doesn't help that they completely skim over both important and/or interesting parts of the plot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DanMan Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) As for Blazing Sword, the less I talk about that game's story the better. I wish to forget all of it. EDIT: You know what, forget what I said. It's not the time or place. I believe that's literally the first time I've seen anyone say something even slightly negative about Genealogy of the Holy War; I've seen plenty complain about the oddball mechanics, and it's generally agreed that with a bit of effort the 2nd gen breaks the game as much as Awakening's. Edited July 30, 2015 by The DanMan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) So were there any things in Hoshido that people took issue with (besides being too morally pure)? I've heard plenty for Conquest and IK. Edited July 30, 2015 by NekoKnight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Let's get the people who wrote Xenoblade Chronicles to work on FE15, they'd have to TRY to fail if the story was anywhere near as good as Xenoblade's. I'm really feeling it. The problem with Fates (and Awakening to some extent, I guess) is that they seem to be inconsistent with what they want. In Fates it is a particularly more noticeable offender because the advertisement highly emphasized the avatar's families and gave off the impression that this was a story about family love -- specifically, between siblings -- and the struggle of picking between two families who love you very much. This sort of gets shot to hell when you can marry said siblings because you're not actually related to them. I'd actually be much less salty about Kamui not being related to the Hoshidans if they weren't allowed to marry the Hoshidans (or the Nohrians). I can't think of very many people in real who are like, "oh, we were raised as siblings/thought of you as our sibling for so long, but now that we know we're not related I suddenly want to bang you." What the hell? I can accept maybe one of them wanting to get with you (Camilla), but all eight of them? With no question? Or serious eyebrow raising from the other siblings if it happens? And the story glosses over their marriage and they continue talking to one another like they're siblings? Uhhhh? While none of the older games were perfect or even really masterpieces, I think the message they were trying to get across, even if not perfect, was at least consistent. They had a consistent theme woven through the story that was NOT contradicted by things like fanservice, which ultimately became a bit more "important" to some people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thane Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 So were there any things in Hoshido that people took issue with (besides being too morally pure)? I've heard plenty for Conquest and IK. Since the developers themselves flat out said it'd be a traditional, simple story, people went in with completely different expectations than with Conquest. Hoshido does suffer from the same problems the other two routes do as well though, but what I don't understand is why they couldn't bother explaining things they even ignore in the other two paths. For instance, couldn't they talk a bit more about Kamui being able to transform into a motherflipping dragon? Considering the final level in particular, that could've been relevant. Kamui's sibling saw them transform into a dragon and then they don't even mention it again after Azura casually picks up a Dragonstone from her pocket. This is before the choice, I know, but considering what happened right before their very eyes, I figure they might want to discuss it afterwards. Another thing that bothered me is that the war just isn't shown, like, at all. In Conquest you invade Hoshido, and in the third route they show the countries clashing at least twice, but here you casually stroll through neutral areas in search of your bro, and then you pretty much sneak into Nohr. Where's the fighting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Let's get the people who wrote Xenoblade Chronicles to work on FE15, they'd have to TRY to fail if the story was anywhere near as good as Xenoblade's. I'm really feeling it. The problem with Fates (and Awakening to some extent, I guess) is that they seem to be inconsistent with what they want. In Fates it is a particularly more noticeable offender because the advertisement highly emphasized the avatar's families and gave off the impression that this was a story about family love -- specifically, between siblings -- and the struggle of picking between two families who love you very much. This sort of gets shot to hell when you can marry said siblings because you're not actually related to them. I'd actually be much less salty about Kamui not being related to the Hoshidans if they weren't allowed to marry the Hoshidans (or the Nohrians). I can't think of very many people in real who are like, "oh, we were raised as siblings/thought of you as our sibling for so long, but now that we know we're not related I suddenly want to bang you." What the hell? I can accept maybe one of them wanting to get with you (Camilla), but all eight of them? With no question? Or serious eyebrow raising from the other siblings if it happens? And the story glosses over their marriage and they continue talking to one another like they're siblings? Uhhhh? While none of the older games were perfect or even really masterpieces, I think the message they were trying to get across, even if not perfect, was at least consistent. They had a consistent theme woven through the story that was NOT contradicted by things like fanservice, which ultimately became a bit more "important" to some people. This is the biggest bit. With most pairings, you don't need to go out of your way to write character reactions to them but surely pseudo incest would be a talking point. There must have been some extremely awkward dinner table conversations we didn't see. Marx: Kamui... people tell me you married and impregnated your 12 year old sister... our sister... That's...interesting. Kamui: Yes, it is. Leon: Pass the mashed potatoes, please. Since the developers themselves flat out said it'd be a traditional, simple story, people went in with completely different expectations than with Conquest. Hoshido does suffer from the same problems the other two routes do as well though, but what I don't understand is why they couldn't bother explaining things they even ignore in the other two paths. For instance, couldn't they talk a bit more about Kamui being able to transform into a motherflipping dragon? Considering the final level in particular, that could've been relevant. Kamui's sibling saw them transform into a dragon and then they don't even mention it again after Azura casually picks up a Dragonstone from her pocket. This is before the choice, I know, but considering what happened right before their very eyes, I figure they might want to discuss it afterwards. Another thing that bothered me is that the war just isn't shown, like, at all. In Conquest you invade Hoshido, and in the third route they show the countries clashing at least twice, but here you casually stroll through neutral areas in search of your bro, and then you pretty much sneak into Nohr. Where's the fighting? Ah yes, I nearly forgot about the dragon thing probably because I almost never used it. More awkward dinners! Hinoka: Everyone saw that right? Kamui turning into a dragon? Azura: Everyone gets upset now and then. That's nothing unusual. Hinoka: HE TURNED INTO A DRAGON! The lack of presence Nohr had in Hoshido definitely struck me as weird. You know they are up to some dickery, and presumably Ryoma and Takumi were fighting them... somewhere but it felt like you only encountered a lot of Nohrians until AFTER you left Hoshido. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alazen Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Next Target: Ganz and Macbeth These two are way too over-the-top considering how nobody in Hoshido matches them. They really go downwards in the 3rd Path, getting swatted like flies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) By the by, do Iago and Ganz have actual motivations? Because the latter seems like a bad Jarod clone and the former seems to be cartoonishly evil for no reason whatsoever. Like so evil that if he had a wife, he'd probably demand she wear a Hitler mask in bed. I mean it's at least better than Aversa who is such a non-entity that I forget she exists half the time, but man I remember when villains like Caellach or Lyon were the standard and not the exception. Also why the fuck would anyone live in Nohr? It seems completely incapable of supporting life, let alone a nation that size. Couldn't they have made it basically Thracia or something? You could at least live there. Edited July 31, 2015 by Dark Sage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JupiterKnight Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Loyalty to Garon for Iago and Promotions for Ganz. They both share being a dick just because they can. Though Iago tends to beg for his life and Leon is there to put an end to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor Hardin Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Loyalty to Garon for Iago and Promotions for Ganz. They both share being a dick just because they can. Though Iago tends to beg for his life and Leon is there to put an end to him. Ganz's deathquote? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryo Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Now that I think about it, this battle has never been explained or even mentioned at all, right? Why did they make it look seemingly important, yet it serves no purpose in the narrative? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor Hardin Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 So I heard Ganz's death quote mentioned something about wanting to be a king or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JupiterKnight Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) I'm sure it's just a portrait to show how the barbaric uncivilized westerners fighting the glorious Japanese Hoshidans in dishonorable combat by riding a horse. Edited August 2, 2015 by JupiterKnight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alazen Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Last One: Garon We know little of the actual Garon. The Fake Garon gets summed up in the 3rd Path (blab about his dastardly plan, show up, request aid, die). The Fake Garon has to go. Even if you're trying to show Hydra has sunk his claws into Nohr, you can reveal the actual Garon was approached by the dragon or one of his henchmen for an alliance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JupiterKnight Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 I think Fake Garon can work you just have to do it in a smart way. Like actually have some supports or scenes that flash back to the loving father the kids had in the past to the father they remember. Because you would also have to change their loyalty to Nohr as well, because despite what they may think those memories of a kind father is why they don't just leave his side or outright defy him. Besides Elise who again was not only the only one who never saw that side of him alongside Kamui, but also ditches the army rather than fight Kamui. Even Aqua experienced the unpleasantness of the Concubines who were all terrible mothers and people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taka-kun Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 I am all for removing the fake Garon. A disillusioned Garon poisoned by Macbeth's words suits better. With fake Garon, it's just "For the Eviluz!". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JupiterKnight Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) Iagos barely manipulative of Garon. He's more of a yes man that follows his master. Just like Ganz. Iago might go around his back to deal with Kamui, but he usually does it to protect his master. Fake Garon is pretty much Hydra imposing his will. So naturally the omnicidal nut displays a love for death and destruction and through his familiar. Gooron even thought that he'd be a vessel for his master like Gunther was but Hydra eats him instead. That's all he was good for. Killing, spreading death, and being food. Plus his emotions and goals are rewritten whenever Hydra needs to be more evil. He even speaks on Nohr about how Kamui will be killed for "betraying" his master just like he rants about destroying both on IK. I'd rather all the parents being straight up evil in service to the Invisible Dragon Illumanti. Heck have Sumeragi being "killed" by Garon be part of the plan as well to justify a war against the evil Nohr! Edited August 2, 2015 by JupiterKnight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alazen Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) Fake Garon being all about death and destruction draws attention to Hydra being another fellow out to destroy humanity and/or the world. I ask yku, does Hydra actually have an ideology or cause like Medeus or the Loptyrians? Edited August 2, 2015 by Alazen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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