Fixing Fates story issues (spoilers)

[Nanima]

In the actual story of Nohr, weren't Garon and Iago most adamant about killing off the older two more so than Takumi and Sakura? If that holds true, then it would make most sense for Ryouma and Hinoka to die. Honestly, I cannot see a situation where Ryouma does not die because he's arguably putting himself in the most danger AND is in the most powerful position of all of the Hoshido royals. To be a good writer or to write a good story, sometimes you have to kill off characters you love if the plot calls for it. Much as I like Takumi, if I had to kill him off in order for one of my stories to not be shit, I'm doing it in that particular story because it is necessary.

I haven't played the game yet so I can't be certain of this, but I read somewhere that Hinoka states in the epilogue that she only became Queen because Ryouma and Takumi were dead. This implies that Hoshido has Agnatic-preferance as their inheritance law (The rulers male children inherit before the female ones) In this case it makes more sense for Garon to want to see Ryouma and Takumi dead, because Hinoka and Sakura's claim would be slightly less uncontested in Hoshido (my guess here). Don't know if this is true.

And yes, Takumi is my favourite character and all, but since in my story his death seems to serve more of a purpose than him living I'll have to go with it. And really, I have grown so used to my favourite characters dying that one more won't break me. I am a hardened Asoiaf veteran

Edited August 21, 2015 by Nanima²

[NekoKnight]

Aye, a rewrite would be needed, but you bring up something else: is Azura really necessary? There's already a surplus of siblings, and if you focus on the Nohr-Hoshido conflict, then the less to remind the player of the Invisible Kingdom the better. Hydra is another element of the story I would like to remove in its entirety.

Azura and IK as a whole are elements I feel can be cut. What does IK really serve to do other than overshadow the other routes in terms of canon and plot significance? Do we REALLY need a cosmic, world ending dragon to make the plot dramatic enough? The original premise we were sold could have been truly epic. If we must have our dragon quota filled, actually make Lilith and Kamui's dragon heritage relevant in the first two routes!

I am liking how this goes, but I think chapter 19/20 is a bit too late for the rebellion to start. If we are going for the 27 chapter structure at least. I am thinking (now going off my Camilla=Spymaster idea):

Chapter 15: Ryouma, Takumi and Sakura are captured, ending the war. Meanwhile Camilla (who has a seperate mission from Kamui and the others because I want her to be relevant damnit) manages to capture Hinoka, but lets her go, so she can become the secret leader of the Hoshidan resistance and help setting up a rebellion against Garon (Camilla decided that Garon isn't fit to rule anymore). Camilla then returns to Nohr claiming she killed Hinoka.

Chapter 16: Short time skip, Hoshido is absorbed into Nohr, but the people (covertly led by Hinoka) keep resisting and trying to free the royal siblings, which makes Garon decide to execute them. The Nohrian siblings beg Garon to show mercy, who grumpily concedes that at least Sakura is spared so she can be used as a hostage (a suggestion made by Camilla) . Ryouma and Takumi are executed publicly, which leaves Kamui a guilt ridden mess.

Chapter 17: The Hoshidan resistance appears undaunted in their attempts to free Sakura, so Garon decides that she should be executed as well. Kamui decides that enough is enough and frees her, being declared a traitor in the process.

Camilla, Leon and Elise immediately join him in this, and Camilla reveals Hinoka's status. They begin to plan out a joint Hoshidan/Nohr rebellion against Garon.

Chapter 18: On their way to join up with the Hoshidan resistance the group is ambushed by Nohrian troups lead by Marx and Ganz/Macbeth. Battle ensues, and Marx manages to corner Kamui and defeats them. When he decides to capture them, Macbeth/Ganz buts in and says that Garon has decided to have Kamui (and the other sibs) executed for their treachery, so Marx might as well get it over with now. Marx briefly struggles with his loyalties, but finally draws the line and joins the resistance.

Chapter 19-27: Nohrian civil war.

Let me know what you think.

Sounds good to me. I agree that the bulk of the game should be about reforming from within but a writer can pace it however they want. I arbitrary chose chapter 15 to be the point Nohr conquers Hoshido but it could be even earlier. As we have it now, the conquest of Hoshido would be chapters 7-15, or 9 chapters total. I don't want to gloss over the Nohr-Hoshido war, but it could probably be done in fewer. The plots of Hoshido and Nohr are only as long as they are because of what could be described as filler content spread out here and there.

One thing I see lacking in this thread is the whole theme of family. I have been beating on this dead horse for awhile (I count myself being one of the most dissapointed fans here on this site regarding that topic) but it bears repeating. I hate to forcefully introduce it but it should be considered anyway.

Like, people take for granted that Marx, Camilla and Leon could just up and betray Garon, their father, their blood and flesh. There is a limit how much you can take, yes, but most family members tends to stick together, no matter what. That's why we have a problem with families giving false testimonies to the police to shield another family member, or sheltering and hiding them, despite the criminal acts they have done. Though I haven't read the supports myself, the three had good terms with their father and they had genuine love between each other. Just those small acts of love, of comfort during the early years can impact heavily when you get older. Garon could have been like Marx when he was younger and Marx inherited that sense of duty towards country. The only thing that separates them are years of pain and suffering and ageing.

Kamui had none of that. Garon never loved him/her and he/she only did their best to be acknowledged as a prince of Nohr, to stand beside their royal siblings, which is why rebellion comes easier for them. Imagine a wham line in Conquest like this:

Leon: "It's not that easy, Kamui, to turn your back against your flesh and blood."

Kamui: "But I can, is that what you are saying?"

Leon: "N-no, I meant..."

Kamui: "We already have proof of that after all."

This is true. People (myself included) give Marx flak for being such a stubborn idiot about his father but the conflict that the Nohrian siblings would have for betraying Garon is real. The odd thing is, in Nohr (for the actual game) they have the perfect set up for a turning point in which the siblings might side with you over Garon (Garon's order to execute you, much like how Jaffar was ordered to kill Nino but went rogue instead) but they put it at the very beginning of the route! Garon already sounds insane so there is no build up, and everyone is just expected go along with King Badman with only some vague references to him not always being evil. Nanima does a good job of explaining how they might realistically think of Garon.

The family theme in Nohr will be important in a certain way: Who is my family? For Kamui in Nohr that question is answered as: The siblings I grew up with.

For the rest of the Nohrian's it is more difficult as they have to decide wether to support Garon or Kamui:

Elise: she never experienced the kind side of Garon, and her mother didn't love her either. The reason she is still so kind and loveable is because she had her siblings who showered her with affection.

Garon is not a true parental figure to her, so if the decision is between Kamui and Garon, she'll choose Kamui any day.

Leon: he still got to know the nicer side of Garon, if only briefly, so he definitly longs for the father figure he ones had. But Leon is still way more familiar with the cruel Garon and therefore has a stronger bond with Kamui. He is also way more of a realist and knows that all of Garon's militaristic bluster is bound to drive the country into ruin.

Camilla: Now her character is the most changed from the game. In my mind, she got to witness Garon slowly growing more and more cruel, saw him goaded by figures such as Ganz and Macbeth to commit terrible acts. Once the war with Hoshido started she realized that there was no going back to the way things were, and that it was only a matter of time before Garon would act against even his own family (Kamui being the first to go). So she formed a plan that would eventually lead to a rebellion, and would hopefully end with Marx ascending the throne. Despite this, her plans never included killing Garon (which happens anyway). She simply wanted him to be forced from the throne and then spend his last days somewhere isolated and peaceful. On the other hand, she has no problems endangering the lifes of the Hoshidan royalty if it leads to her goal.

Marx: As the dutiful son, he has the most problems with acting against his father. He still loves him and desperately clings to the notion that everything will be alright once Hoshido is conquered. When he sees that this didn't work, he is still caught up between acting like the perfect heir to his father, the needs of the Nohrian people, and his siblings well-being. He tries to escape making a definite choice for as long as possible, but when push comes to shove he decides that it's his siblings who matter more than his memory of how his father used to be.

So in the end it's not only Kamui who chooses his Nohrian siblings. They also choose him and each other over Garon.

This, so much. Another way they they could ease into the eventual rebellion is having them try to reform Nohr without directly opposing their father. They could be doing things like policing crime or secretly hiring assassins like Belka to kill corrupt lords. I like the idea of Camilla secretly working for a better Nohr, especially because she will have a purpose other than to be Kamui's wife.

It doesn't need to be an immediate rebellion/plot to kill Garon. It would be something gradual and the civil war/open rebellion part wouldn't come until much later.

[Yari]

In the actual story of Nohr, weren't Garon and Iago most adamant about killing off the older two more so than Takumi and Sakura? If that holds true, then it would make most sense for Ryouma and Hinoka to die. Honestly, I cannot see a situation where Ryouma does not die because he's arguably putting himself in the most danger AND is in the most powerful position of all of the Hoshido royals. To be a good writer or to write a good story, sometimes you have to kill off characters you love if the plot calls for it. Much as I like Takumi, if I had to kill him off in order for one of my stories to not be shit, I'm doing it in that particular story because it is necessary.

The thing is I can perfectly write a good story in wich Ryoma survives. Because I'm writing both Hoshido and Nohr! I can't kill him or any of the other characters without messing up the other side of the story! I'm not just writing an Hoshido fic or just a Nohr fic. I'm writing both!

And seriously you can't think of a way Ryoma can survive? I can because I need him for my plot like I need all of the other siblings.

"Good...good"

Of course George had to show up in my thread!

[Sunwoo]

The thing is I can perfectly write a good story in wich Ryoma survives. Because I'm writing both Hoshido and Nohr! I can't kill him or any of the other characters without messing up the other side of the story! I'm not just writing an Hoshido fic or just a Nohr fic. I'm writing both!

And seriously you can't think of a way Ryoma can survive? I can because I need him for my plot like I need all of the other siblings.

I could come up with a way for him to survive if I chose not to kill any of the siblings, but unless you're doing a complete Hoshido path rewrite where none of the Nohr siblings die as well then it's only fair for Hoshido to lose the same amount of siblings as Nohr on the opposite routes. It's also not unheard of for at least one sibling to die in the name of plot -- this is war.

Also, I stayed up late working on last minute summer assignments and still have more work and writing later today. I'm coming up with all my Fates ideas on the spot. Give me a break just because I couldn't think of a way to spare Ryouma at the moment.

[Nanima]

This, so much. Another way they they could ease into the eventual rebellion is having them try to reform Nohr without directly opposing their father. They could be doing things like policing crime or secretly hiring assassins like Belka to kill corrupt lords. I like the idea of Camilla secretly working for a better Nohr, especially because she will have a purpose other than to be Kamui's wife.

It doesn't need to be an immediate rebellion/plot to kill Garon. It would be something gradual and the civil war/open rebellion part wouldn't come until much later.

Well, I am thinking of using the Hoshido/Nohr war as a backdrop for the rising conflicts within the Nohrian royalty, Kamui's doubts and Camilla's slowly setting up her plan. That way it would make sense to spread it over more chapters. The rebellion doesn't come out of the blue and the invasion of Hoshido is more than just meaningless fluff.

And as a sidenote, I am also going to surgically remove everything related to dragons from the plot. Kamui is the son/daughter (haven't decided yet) of Sumeragi and Mikoto, just like the other Hoshidan siblings. He/She was kidnapped in an early attempt to force Hoshido to open its borders.

[Thane]

Azura and IK as a whole are elements I feel can be cut. What does IK really serve to do other than overshadow the other routes in terms of canon and plot significance? Do we REALLY need a cosmic, world ending dragon to make the plot dramatic enough? The original premise we were sold could have been truly epic. If we must have our dragon quota filled, actually make Lilith and Kamui's dragon heritage relevant in the first two routes!

No, no we did not. The problem with those kinds of villains is that they completely remove the human element which tends to be far more exciting and relatable than a world-ending dragon ever could be. Fates was set up to be a character-driven story where the protagonist's relationship with their siblings and parents were the center of the narrative, but it's not - hell, now with the new DLC it's canonically called wrong.

Azura is also a walking plot device, and I can only assume that a lot of people, just like me, tend to forget she even exists, which is why she's hardly mentioned here when everybody's talking about rewrites.

And as a sidenote, I am also going to surgically remove everything related to dragons from the plot. Kamui is the son/daughter (haven't decided yet) of Sumeragi and Mikoto, just like the other Hoshidan siblings. He/She was kidnapped in an early attempt to force Hoshido to open its borders.

You have my full support in doing that. The story doesn't even care about what it does with its dragons - no one in Nohr is surprised about Kamui suddenly being able to transform into a dragon, Hydra went insane for teh lulz and Lilith is your dragon pet sister who served you as your maid your whole life.

Dragons suck in this game.

[Thor Odinson]

Yeah ngl as much as I am a lobster fan and I mean, I spent my entire summer when I'm supposed to coding drawing pictures of him, but, if the death of my favorite character is going to be beneficial to both the plot and their character, then I'm going to be for that. Maybe I'm just also desensitized because 90% of my favorite characters are dead anyway, but

Take an example in FE4's Ayra. In FE4, most Gen1s are believed to have died at Bahara, until you get to Gen2/read some supplementary Kaga stuff and find out that most mothers actually survived the event, with the exception of iirc Ethlin and Ayra (a few of them died afterwards like Tiltyu due to abuse). I'd much rather have that than if Ayra was also somehow found out alive, bullshit or not, since Ayra's very much a warrior and it's much more befitting for her to have died at Sigurd's last stand in battle than being alive (except the Levin method aka did actually die but got revived by his patron dragon god, but Levin is actually Major Forseti while Ayra's Minor Odo so). I'm very glad that she was not ass-revived, even though she's easily one of my favorite FE characters of all time.

Maybe I just used up all my sadness because I'm a jojo fan and you can't expect anyone to live through that anyway, but really, if the death makes sense and is overall beneficial to both the character (deaths, and the way they go out, can actually really impact characterization) and the plot, then do it. No plot armor.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[NekoKnight]

And as a sidenote, I am also going to surgically remove everything related to dragons from the plot. Kamui is the son/daughter (haven't decided yet) of Sumeragi and Mikoto, just like the other Hoshidan siblings. He/She was kidnapped in an early attempt to force Hoshido to open its borders.

B-but muh dragons!

I think you can still keep the vague dragon lineage for both sides of the royal families, just not give Kamui super special dragon blood. Basically it would just be a part of the lore to justify the use of dragon's vein. I really liked the idea of having a protagonist who was part dragon, but if they are not even going to explore it properly (and how could they when the theme is supposed to be about family) they might as well not include it.

I'm getting really excited for the fan fictions that could spawn from this thread. It will be the best Fire Emblem that never was.

[Nanima]

B-but muh dragons!

I think you can still keep the vague dragon lineage for both sides of the royal families, just not give Kamui super special dragon blood. Basically it would just be a part of the lore to justify the use of dragon's vein. I really liked the idea of having a protagonist who was part dragon, but if they are not even going to explore it properly (and how could they when the theme is supposed to be about family) they might as well not include it.

I'm getting really excited for the fan fictions that could spawn from this thread. It will be the best Fire Emblem that never was.

Yeah, I could maybe put in some references to dragon myths. Maybe as a way to find a connection for both royal families and nations. But it's not gonna be more than a vague background detail, as I am much more invested in the human element and the more fantasy you add to a story the easier it is the more it gets bogged down by it. I prefer the way George treats his fantasy; as an essential part of the experience but always secondary to the human conflicts.

If I ever finish this project, I am going to try and do some rewriting of Birthright as well. Though I think the story doesn't need to change as drastically. I probably won't do a third route for my setup, since I have ditched most of the dragons and I found the "two sides, one choice" better than "two sides, but you can totally save everyone anyway" thing.

[NekoKnight]

Is it ever explained in the game proper why Kamui was kidnapped? I know he is a lord and super special dragon but what did Nohr want to use him for? As far as I can tell, they kept him locked up in a castle for most of his life and then they tried to kill him.

I think a rewrite of the game would need an extra reason for why Kamui in particular was kidnapped. Kamui is the 3rd eldest child of the royal family and if female, ranked even lower than Takumi if sons inherit before daughters. That doesn't sound like a very impressive political hostage. One idea I was thinking about was Kamui being chosen by the Fire Emblem from an early age and the emblem being tied to Hoshido's prosperity. Another way spin it is that the rightful heir to the Hoshido throne must be chosen by the emblem, which is why Mikoto is acting as the steward of Hoshido when usually one of the king's children would take power after he died.

It's just an idea. I wouldn't want something like "chosen ones" leading to plot-derailing player-worship. The sharp contrast of prosperous Hoshido and Nohrdor warrants some kind of explanation however. Be it magical in nature or otherwise.

[Sunwoo]

Garon wanted more kids. Because obviously he didn't have enough.

[Thor Odinson]

As far as canon goes I /think/ it's because evil!Hydra wanted Kamui to be a pawn for him in his chaos

or something

I don't know the plot well enough to really piece it together properly, though

[Thane]

I've been thinking about how the story would work out if Garon died early on or in the mid stages of Conquest, and Kamui and their siblings would have to deal with the consequences afterwards. I was thinking Hoshido could attempt to invade for numerous reasons: petty revenge, to gain more territory or to pacify the nation permanently. That'd let the Nohrians be the defenders for a while, and it'd stop Hoshido from being considered perfect. You'd need a good, credible Hoshido villain for that though...hey, maybe Takumi without any plot device governing his actions.

Haven't thought much about it, but I do like the concept, since it would be radically different from Birthright; I dislike how similarly the two routes are structured.

[Alazen]

I've been thinking of taking cues from the roles Japan's pre-Meiji emperors played in society. For those not in the know, from 1192 to 1867 sovereignty of the state was exercised by shoguns whose authority was conferred by Imperial warrant. There's a history of ambitious lords holding actual power, as such positions have not been inherently conflicting to the Emperor's position. Portuguese explorers likened the emperor to the Pope and the shogun to European rules such as the Holy Roman Emperor.

A scenario that comes to mind is that Mikoto is the hereditary empress with Sumeragi as a warlord who married into the family. Lords who weren't subjugated outright are expected to send tribute and aid Hoshido in military manners (like the lord of Rinka's land).

Edited August 22, 2015 by Alazen

[JupiterKnight]

As far as canon goes I /think/ it's because evil!Hydra wanted Kamui to be a pawn for him in his chaos

or something

I don't know the plot well enough to really piece it together properly, though

His likely plan does appear to have Kamui die with Mikoto considering all the IK troops had Dragon slaying weapons equipped in the battle where Kamui take Dragon form and Garon rants about how Kamui betrayed them by surviving on Conquest.

[NekoKnight]

I've been thinking of taking cues from the roles Japan's pre-Meiji emperors played in society. For those not in the know, from 1192 to 1867 sovereignty of the state was exercised by shoguns whose authority was conferred by Imperial warrant. There's a history of ambitious lords holding actual power, as such positions have not been inherently conflicting to the Emperor's position. Portuguese explorers likened the emperor to the Pope and the shogun to European rules such as the Holy Roman Emperor.

A scenario that comes to mind is that Mikoto is the hereditary empress with Sumeragi as a warlord who married into the family. Lords who weren't subjugated outright are expected to send tribute and aid Hoshido in military manners (like the lord of Rinka's land).

Isn't it Mikoto who marries into the royal family and Sumeragi is the Hoshido lord? That was my understanding, which made it unusual that it was Mikoto who was in charge, instead of the very adult Ryoma.

[JupiterKnight]

Since daughters only become rulers of Hoshido if the brothers are dead.

Camilla was at least second in line to the throne in Nohr.

Edited August 22, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[Alazen]

Isn't it Mikoto who marries into the royal family and Sumeragi is the Hoshido lord? That was my understanding, which made it unusual that it was Mikoto who was in charge, instead of the very adult Ryoma.

Rewrite. I'm trying to model Hoshidan government off of pre-Meiji Japanese government while also trying to be consistent with how the actual Fates has Mikoto being treated as Garon's counterpart despite marrying into royalty and Ryoma being obviously of age to rule. This also works for the ''Rebel Queen Hinoka'' scenario since being the second-born child of Mikoto she'd have the clout to lead a rebellion.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Alazen

[Ryo]

Anyone thinks the major political figures like Izana, Kotarou, Fuuga, Clear, Fire clan leader etc. should have more notable impacts on the plot? As of now they only act as filler enemies/allies/neutral and pretty much disappear from the story after their (very brief) roles have ended. The fact that some, regardless of political stance and ideology, only join you after you've upgraded some hot tub inside your castle doesn't help. Like, are you interested in the fight or the bath?

[JupiterKnight]

Izana has the biggest impact of the lot, dying so that Takumi will trust Kamui.

Clear has the second biggest, because him being a bad dad to Flora while spoiling Felicia. His actions lead to Floras suicide afterall.

Rewrite. I'm trying to model Hoshidan government off of pre-Meiji Japanese government while also trying to be consistent with how the actual Fates has Mikoto being treated as Garon's counterpart despite marrying into royalty and Ryoma being obviously of age to rule. This also works for the ''Rebel Queen Hinoka'' scenario since being the second-born child of Mikoto she'd have the clout to lead a rebellion.

I imagine Mikoto remains queen due to being the one making the Brainwashing barrier that removes all hostility towards Hoshido. Kill her or try to dispose of her and Nohr will be free to invade.

[Alazen]

And if the barrier is axed during a rewrite?

[JupiterKnight]

Maybe a rule the Queen takes over the country should her husband dies and then passes on to the oldest son when she wants/dies.

That or she's secretly a tyrannical and ruthless queen loved by her kids who burns entire villages down to the ground for questioning her reign.

[Ryo]

Izana has the biggest impact of the lot, dying so that Takumi will trust Kamui.

Clear has the second biggest, because him being a bad dad to Flora while spoiling Felicia. His actions lead to Floras suicide afterall.

Yeah but most of them are underdeveloped at best. They have little to no on-screen participation in political activities other than the very brief instant your party cross their countries, which we never heard of again. We don't know what happened to Fuuma after their leaders have been killed in all paths. The countries and their rulers' relationship with the two kingdoms are only established as much as "A is B's ally/enemy", without being further delved upon.

[JupiterKnight]

Most of the small Japanese/Hoshido styled countries seen are Neutral in the story. izana's and even Fuuga's choose Neutrality for the most part with the exception of Koutarou.

The Ice Tribe, Amusia, Chevalier are all territories that were basically conquered by Nohr. They still have enough freedom to rule themselves, but for the most part they are effectively a part of Nohr.

Edited August 22, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[Ryo]

Most of the small Japanese/Hoshido styled countries seen are Neutral in the story. izana's and even Fuuga's choose Neutrality for the most part with the exception of Koutarou.

The Ice Tribe, Amusia, Chevalier are all territories that were basically conquered by Nohr. They still have enough freedom to rule themselves, but for the most part they are effectively a part of Nohr.

But that is pretty much everything we know about the side countries/tribes though. The story doesn't let us learn about other aspects (except for perhaps their culture and general policies), like the people for example, because we pretty much never heard of them again once we leave their territory. Perhaps I'm being a bit nit-picky, but I kinda wish the story didn't just cast them aside when it's done with them after the one or two chapters they're featured in. One would at least expect that the leaders' would be more involved with the main plot and act as one of the main driving forces (while some do indeed join you later, at that time they're hardly relevant anymore). Someone like Kotarou having his own scheme is nice, but that plot has nothing to do with the main story, nor has it been further developed upon, which is unfortunate because I'm actually quite interested in the whole thing.