Fixing Fates story issues (spoilers)

[NekoKnight]

Willing souls are better because they don't struggle after they've been 'assimilated' as it were. It's the struggling of all the unwilling souls within that prevented Anankos' good and insane halves from properly merging and contributes heavily to their declining health. As for why Kamui is a big deal...well, they're actually not. The shared blood between them is the sole reason Anankos thinks that it'll make them better and it's an example of how desperate they are to avoid their encroaching death that they'll try anything with the flimsiest of justifications if it has even the smallest chance of helping him. After all, even when Anankos was whole, they endangered millions of lives and even when the preventative measures started failing still refused to let themselves die because they legitimately are that scared of dying

So, here's something you might want to do. If there are important story details that need clarification and the answer is "because he's evil" "because he's arrogant" or "because he's crazy" , you should probably fix this story detail. I specify, because these are the central flaws of Fates current villains. Everything they do is because "they're evil" or in Hydra's case "because he's crazy and evil".

Anankos, our central villain, preys upon Kamui, our main protagonist, because he has the somewhat baseless assumption that he needs Kamui's soul. This is a HUGE, plot driving element of the story, and we already know it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You call it desperation but as there is little proof of Kamui being necessary, it feels contrived. It's not a plan he even knows could work.

Suggestion: Write a reason for why Kamui is definitely needed for the villain's plan to work.

It really annoys me when characters like Light or Hannibal Lector i.e. extremely charismatic and charming, expert manipulators and hyper-intelligent with nearly flawless planning skills, are labelled as sociopaths. Characters like that are closer to Antisocial Personality Disorder than anything else, and even that can be a little iffy in some cases. I can acknowledge that there are exceptions to that, but generally speaking most kinds of media treat sociopaths/psychopaths the way Hollywood treats hacking (and relationships...and guns...and physics...and basically everything really). While it isn't impossible for a sociopath to be intelligent or cultured or expert manipulators amongst other things they almost/literally never overlap.

My favourite examples of sociopathy in media (although you might take issue with my choice) is Hazama and Relius Clover from Blazblue. While both of them are definitely intelligent (Hazama is an expert at manipulating people's emotions and Relius is a Mad Scientist archetype) and cultured (Hazama dresses very stylishly while Relius is into Opera), most of their ability to out-plan their enemies comes from the time loops in which they retain their memories throughout the loops but almost no-one else does (with the two people who oppose and retain their memories being forbidden from directly affecting the loops). Because of this, they spend at least 72500 years ircc memorising who will do what and when, allowing them to take a trial-and-error approach to their schemes (Hazama kills himself in Jin's story path to force a reset when things don't go his way). By the end of the time loop, they are literally unbeatable and pull of all their goals without a hitch (including breaking the time loops) because they can account for everything that their enemies will do. However, when the time loops are broken, their conceited nature leads them to completely underestimate their enemies which, combined with their inability to account for all the possible actions of the protagonists, sees them quickly out-planned and promptly killed off (in Hazama's case, although that may change by the next game) or captured (in Relius case, and captured by the hands of the people he tried to manipulate no less).

I wasn't trying to specifically identify if Light is a sociopath or not, merely that he is a villain who had intelligence and grand plans but did not have all the pieces necessary to complete his goals. If he did, one would assume, he wouldn't be shy about pressing his advantage to achieve all his goals. I don't think Light is much different than the BlazBlue villains you mention. He's smart but his flaws (arrogance and his penchant for killing off his subordinates when they become a liability to him) do eventually lead to his downfall. I'm not a BlazBlue fan but from what you describe, those characters only messed up in their final moments as opposed to having needlessly complex plans that ruin them.

Maybe this isn't the psychological definition of a sociopath, but I always assumed that the base trait of them was their inability to empathize with others, as Light was. Whether he is a sociopath or has antisocial personality disorder is besides the point, however. It's just a word.

I'm aiming to make Anankos as close to a real-life sociopath as I can, so while they're fae from stupid (in terms of knowledge, they're probably the smartest character in the story), but they have quite a few problems when it comes to common sense and their sadistic urges/overconfidence leads them to make quite a few mistakes that would be avoidable by a more level-headed villain. If this strikes you as a villain that would doesn't make good decisions, then good, cause that's the entire goddamn point! Sociopaths can make plans, but they're dreadful at following through with them, sociopaths are impulsive, pathologically egocentric and aggressive, sociopaths are inconsistent, irresponsible and unreliable in their behaviour and, most importantly, sociopaths have poor judgement/decision-making skills and don't learn from their mistakes.

I recognize your intention here but I would express my distaste for such villains.

Let's look at Gilgamesh in Fate Stay Night. He's so powerful that he could defeat every other character in the story in a matter of days if he wanted. So how does he lose in EVERY route? He's too arrogant to fight at his full potential (or at all) so the heroes always get the jump on him when otherwise they wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of defeating him. This isn't a compelling character. It's a character who loses because he's too dumb to live, in spite of his godly powers. Is THIS the kind of villain. you want?

You say he's after Kamui out of desperation (and he must be in bad shape if he had to hibernate to keep himself alive) but this contradicts Anankos's grand (needlessly complicated) plan. He can't be both desperate and willing to delay his goal to satisfy his ego. That makes him evil and dumb.

Again, I'm sorry if that came across as aggressive or defensive, the issue of 'Hollywood Sociopaths' is just an irrational hatred of mine, not sure why. Anyway, how are you all utilising Touma? Are they an ancient and long-dead society? Do they not exist at all? Something completely different?

There's no need to apologize. it wouldn't be much of a discussion if you just agreed with everything I said. As for your question on Touma: I'm choosing not to include it. When creating the villains (aka the driving force of the plot) 3 questions must be considered:

1. What does the villain want?

2. How will they go about getting what they want?

3. Why haven't they already achieved this?

The last question is the hardest when considering a hidden 3rd route. With Nohr and Hoshido, both stories cover the same conflict. The only difference is which side you choose with and how that shapes the course of the conflict, With Touma, you have some behind the scenes villain who, for some reason, doesn't act in the first two stories and remains undefeated. It undermines the first two routes and creates all sorts of questions. I want my story to be how the conflict shapes Kamui, not the machinations of an evil dragon (although a talented writer could accomplish writing for all three routes).

Are you writing for IK or a story that covers all the routes?

Edited October 29, 2015 by NekoKnight

[Alazen]

Let's look at Gilgamesh in Fate Stay Night. He's so powerful that he could defeat every other character in the story in a matter of days if he wanted. So how does he lose in EVERY route? He's too arrogant to fight at his full potential (or at all) so the heroes always get the jump on him when otherwise they wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of defeating him. This isn't a compelling character. It's a character who loses because he's too dumb to live, in spite of his godly powers. Is THIS the kind of villain. you want?

Another example is Arthas Menetheil in Wrath of the Lich King. Where it turns out that his undead armies can steamroll the Alliance and Horde but he doesn't order them to do that. Instead, he runs around failing to kill a Paladin leader and later failing to kill the player characters that he was plotting to recruit. It's even worse when you consider that Arthas was acting out of character there.

The last question is the hardest when considering a hidden 3rd route. With Nohr and Hoshido, both stories cover the same conflict. The only difference is which side you choose with and how that shapes the course of the conflict, With Touma, you have some behind the scenes villain who, for some reason, doesn't act in the first two stories and remains undefeated. It undermines the first two routes and creates all sorts of questions. I want my story to be how the conflict shapes Kamui, not the machinations of an evil dragon (although a talented writer could accomplish writing for all three routes).

Hydra is too much of an excuse character.

Kamui need an excuse to be able to marry from both sets of siblings. The two nations need an excuse to friend-up. The Nohr siblings need an excuse to brush aside the charge of patricide.

Mind you, it's not like you can't do ''Otherworldly force working behind the scenes of men warring'' in a better way than what Fates went with. Der Langrisser managed it.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Alazen

[Time the Crestfallen]

So, here's something you might want to do. If there are important story details that need clarification and the answer is "because he's evil" "because he's arrogant" or "because he's crazy" , you should probably fix this story detail. I specify, because these are the central flaws of Fates current villains. Everything they do is because "they're evil" or in Hydra's case "because he's crazy and evil".

Anankos, our central villain, preys upon Kamui, our main protagonist, because he has the somewhat baseless assumption that he needs Kamui's soul. This is a HUGE, plot driving element of the story, and we already know it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You call it desperation but as there is little proof of Kamui being necessary, it feels contrived. It's not a plan he even knows could work.

Suggestion: Write a reason for why Kamui is definitely needed for the villain's plan to work.

[spoiler=Wait, this sounds kind of familiar...]

To be perfectly honest, I was a lot more fond of my previous plan for Anankos. The idea was that Sociopath!Anankos' body was dying and they wanted to transfer his soul into another body. Kamui was the literal perfect subject because their odd method of conception means that despite being Sumeragi and Mikoto's child genetically, he is exactly the same kind of Dragon is Anankos, including the lifespan with that measures in more than a billion years at the very least. As Anankos shows the ability to possess people by manipulating their negative emotions, their plan was to make Kamui angry/sad/generally miserable enough that he would be able to take over. The reason that they don't do this personally is because again, having Garon do the abusing fits in with their plans for Nohr and Hoshido. He goes into hibernation shortly after replacing Garon with the Slime Monster and tells him to maintain his cover as it's number one priority, but to do whatever they can to make them miserable so that when they wake up, they can go straight into possession.

Needless to say, this gets ballsed up as due to the influence of Gunther, the retainers and the Nohrian siblings, Kamui has quite a few mental and self-esteem issues, but nothing that's strong enough for Anankos to take control. Giving the shortest answer possible, Anankos uses the events of the war (Kamui would wind up having a bad time anyway, Anankos' influence just rubs salt in the wounds) to make him even more miserable in the hopes that he will be able to control him eventually and, well, he actually winds up succeeding and Kamui spends a fair amount of time possessed. However, Anankos, much to their irritation, discovers that they can't fully take control as most of his 'spirit' still resides in their original body, which is a pain as the only thing that could kill them aside from their illness (which while very physically deliberating would take a long time to end his life) is the Yatogami in it's original form. They then pretend to be banished from Kamui's body while leaving some of their power behind so that the protagonists can put an end to the war, then lure them to Touma hoping that they'll figure out how to restore the Yatogami, then allow them to kill their original body and then transfer their spirit into Kamui's body and take full control. The protagonists however, eventually realise what Anankos is trying to do and Kamui goes for the murder-suicide option of resolving their problems.

But then I realised that this was more-or-less a copypaste of Awakening's plot without the time-travel shenanigans and made myself sad...

But yeah, I'm still playing around with options right now. If my current idea doesn't work out, I'll just think of something else.

The last question is the hardest when considering a hidden 3rd route. With Nohr and Hoshido, both stories cover the same conflict. The only difference is which side you choose with and how that shapes the course of the conflict, With Touma, you have some behind the scenes villain who, for some reason, doesn't act in the first two stories and remains undefeated. It undermines the first two routes and creates all sorts of questions. I want my story to be how the conflict shapes Kamui, not the machinations of an evil dragon (although a talented writer could accomplish writing for all three routes).

Are you writing for IK or a story that covers all the routes?

I'm writing a story that half focuses on all three routes, and half focuses on the aftermath. The framing device is that Kamui wrote journals in which he vented all the melancholic thoughts that he never shared with others. Azura (waifu for laifu) only finds out within a week before he bites the dust and, for the purpose of closure, rewrites the journals with added footnotes explaining the context, backstory and psychological reasoning for why he felt the way he did in a given entry after he died, with the public journals altering the details of Anankos' involvement (he's said to be a Mad Sorcerer instead of a Dragon-God and Slime!Garon was the real Garon who sold out his country for power) while the 'uncensored' one is shown only to friends and family. These entries explore the events of the game through flashbacks while the second half is how the various characters are trying/failing/succeeding in moving on with their lives as well as dealing with tensions between the countries and new enemies from the Frozen Wastes and Holy Lands from the map I gave. It's going to be a bit of a challenge, but I think I can handle it. I've also already posted some things, but they were posted before I was aware of the stories...issues, so I'll probably heavily edit them before making anything new.

Another example is Arthas Menetheil in Wrath of the Lich King. Where it turns out that his undead armies can steamroll the Alliance and Horde but he doesn't order them to do that. Instead, he runs around failing to kill a Paladin leader and later failing to kill the player characters that he was plotting to recruit. It's even worse when you consider that Arthas was acting out of character there.

I was always under the impression that the Lich King was being held back from destroying everything by what little 'good' remained in him. But I will admit to not knowing much about WOW's lore and therefore, not knowing sh*t about his motives or reasons for doing anything.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Phillius

[Alazen]

Arthas was plotting to recruit the player characters as revealed in Fall of the Lich King. And the Arthas Goodyness bit was an asspull that didn't really fit within context of WC3 (where Arthas was a loyal servant who lacked regrets and in TFT's Undead Campaign was shown as a willing servant).

Edited October 29, 2015 by Alazen

[Alazen]

delete this

Edited October 29, 2015 by Alazen

[Alazen]

delete this

Edited October 29, 2015 by Alazen

[Alazen]

delete this

Edited October 29, 2015 by Alazen

[Time the Crestfallen]

Holy triple quadruplicate post batman! Ribbing aside though, I get what you're saying.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Phillius

[NekoKnight]

Another example is Arthas Menetheil in Wrath of the Lich King. Where it turns out that his undead armies can steamroll the Alliance and Horde but he doesn't order them to do that. Instead, he runs around failing to kill a Paladin leader and later failing to kill the player characters that he was plotting to recruit. It's even worse when you consider that Arthas was acting out of character there.

Indeed. Let's not forget how he betrayed his officer corps (the Death Knights) and TOLD them he betrayed them which caused them all to defect to the enemy side. The less said of WoW's writing, the better.

To be perfectly honest, I was a lot more fond of my previous plan for Anankos. The idea was that Sociopath!Anankos' body was dying and they wanted to transfer his soul into another body. Kamui was the literal perfect subject because their odd method of conception means that despite being Sumeragi and Mikoto's child genetically, he is exactly the same kind of Dragon is Anankos, including the lifespan with that measures in more than a billion years at the very least. As Anankos shows the ability to possess people by manipulating their negative emotions, their plan was to make Kamui angry/sad/generally miserable enough that he would be able to take over. The reason that they don't do this personally is because again, having Garon do the abusing fits in with their plans for Nohr and Hoshido. He goes into hibernation shortly after replacing Garon with the Slime Monster and tells him to maintain his cover as it's number one priority, but to do whatever they can to make them miserable so that when they wake up, they can go straight into possession.

Needless to say, this gets ballsed up as due to the influence of Gunther, the retainers and the Nohrian siblings, Kamui has quite a few mental and self-esteem issues, but nothing that's strong enough for Anankos to take control. Giving the shortest answer possible, Anankos uses the events of the war (Kamui would wind up having a bad time anyway, Anankos' influence just rubs salt in the wounds) to make him even more miserable in the hopes that he will be able to control him eventually and, well, he actually winds up succeeding and Kamui spends a fair amount of time possessed. However, Anankos, much to their irritation, discovers that they can't fully take control as most of his 'spirit' still resides in their original body, which is a pain as the only thing that could kill them aside from their illness (which while very physically deliberating would take a long time to end his life) is the Yatogami in it's original form. They then pretend to be banished from Kamui's body while leaving some of their power behind so that the protagonists can put an end to the war, then lure them to Touma hoping that they'll figure out how to restore the Yatogami, then allow them to kill their original body and then transfer their spirit into Kamui's body and take full control. The protagonists however, eventually realise what Anankos is trying to do and Kamui goes for the murder-suicide option of resolving their problems.

But then I realised that this was more-or-less a copypaste of Awakening's plot without the time-travel shenanigans and made myself sad...

To be honest, this does sound more solid (and like Awakening). Weakening someone's will for easier possession makes more sense to me that weakening them for soul consumption. I think it needs some more details to answer the important 3rd villain question "Why hasn't the villain accomplished his goals?". What you have so far is Kamui making friends with Gunther and crew and him not getting depressed as result. But if Gooron is posing as the king, nothing is stopping him from isolating Kamui and doing as he pleases.

Here's an idea. After Anankos goes to sleep, someone spirits away Kamui and hides him in a hidden fortress so that Gooron cannot corrupt him. It would explain why Kamui was never allowed outside and why Kamui is able to make the friends he does. He would only be discovered by the events of the game and that's the point that Gooron starts his "make Kamui cry" campaign.

I'm writing a story that half focuses on all three routes, and half focuses on the aftermath. The framing device is that Kamui wrote journals in which he vented all the melancholic thoughts that he never shared with others. Azura (waifu for laifu) only finds out within a week before he bites the dust and, for the purpose of closure, rewrites the journals with added footnotes explaining the context, backstory and psychological reasoning for why he felt the way he did in a given entry after he died, with the public journals altering the details of Anankos' involvement (he's said to be a Mad Sorcerer instead of a Dragon-God and Slime!Garon was the real Garon who sold out his country for power) while the 'uncensored' one is shown only to friends and family. These entries explore the events of the game through flashbacks while the second half is how the various characters are trying/failing/succeeding in moving on with their lives as well as dealing with tensions between the countries and new enemies from the Frozen Wastes and Holy Lands from the map I gave. It's going to be a bit of a challenge, but I think I can handle it. I've also already posted some things, but they were posted before I was aware of the stories...issues, so I'll probably heavily edit them before making anything new.

Craaaaawling iiiiinnnnn my skiiiiiiiin

You mentioned this concern before, so you might want to be careful about framing the story in such a way. "My sad, sad life: an autobiography by Kamui the Saddest Dragon" sounds a bit...melodramatic.

[Metal Flash]

My plans for Touma are similar to how it`s handled in the game. Touma is the Invisible/Hidden kingdom that exists in a land separate from Hoshido and Nohr. It has no real involvement in the war between the two nations. The king of Touma, Seiji, married Serena, the sister of Mikoto, and the two moved to Touma to rule the kingdom together. Later, they had a child named Sakurai, making him the cousin of Ruyoma, Hinoka, Kamui (female), Takumi and Sakura. For an unknown reason, the three royals left Touma to return to Hoshido. Not long after that, Seiji went to Nohr, with permission from Sumeragi and Mikoto, kidnapped Aqua and killed Shinmei, starting the war. Mikoto then killed Serena out of paranoia and took in Sakurai as her own.

There is also a Royal Guard in Touma consisting of five people. They are, the leader Soji, Julian, Isis, Zanatos and Jester. Compared to Hoshido and Nohr, Touma`s soldiers are poorly trained and lack skills in battle. The only exceptions are Seiji, who was trained by Soji, the Royal Guard, as they underwent harsh training to earn their position, and Sakurai, who trained in Nohr after he was kidnapped. The people of Touma are rather oblivious to what happens outside the kingdom. After Seiji and Serena left with an infant Sakurai, the kingdom`s people went mad and conflicts arose. Whereas before the kingdom was peaceful, now it is corrupted.

[Sunwoo]

I thought we had too many characters as it already was. I'm not sure adding more characters to make things more confusing, especially characters no one is likely to care about, is going to fix Touma's plot.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Sunwoo

[Time the Crestfallen]

Indeed. Let's not forget how he betrayed his officer corps (the Death Knights) and TOLD them he betrayed them which caused them all to defect to the enemy side. The less said of WoW's writing, the better.

Or the various reasons why one has to gather thirty bear arses.

To be honest, this does sound more solid (and like Awakening). Weakening someone's will for easier possession makes more sense to me that weakening them for soul consumption. I think it needs some more details to answer the important 3rd villain question "Why hasn't the villain accomplished his goals?". What you have so far is Kamui making friends with Gunther and crew and him not getting depressed as result. But if Gooron is posing as the king, nothing is stopping him from isolating Kamui and doing as he pleases.

Here's an idea. After Anankos goes to sleep, someone spirits away Kamui and hides him in a hidden fortress so that Gooron cannot corrupt him. It would explain why Kamui was never allowed outside and why Kamui is able to make the friends he does. He would only be discovered by the events of the game and that's the point that Gooron starts his "make Kamui cry" campaign.

Exactly. I was really liking the idea, but then I realised how similar it was to Awakening and had a bit of a dilemma as to whether or not I should go through with it and hope no-one notices or try and change it. As for why the villain hasn't accomplished his goals, the idea that Gooron was told to 'maintain his cover over making Kamui cry' turned out to be far more limiting that Anankos thought it would be and that, while it would be reasonable for Garon to be more cynical and bitter following the Waifu Wars, but he couldn't go to far without arousing suspicion. An example of this is a side-story kind of thing in which I write about each of the characters lives as they grow up in which Real!Garon sends Gunther to the Northern Fortress to act as a 'caretaker' for him and to convert him to Nohr (the excuse for the abuse) 'by any means necessary'. Of course, we all know that Gunther got Kamui to come out of their shell by being kind, so when Gooron shows up and starts chastising Gunther for not using torture, he points out that he was told to use 'any means necessary'. Gooron then a) realises 'oh f*ck me, he actually has a point' and b) that Garon had a distaste for blindly obeying what could be considered 'traditional' applications of skill for lack of better words and praised people who found innovative solutions to problems and had no choice but to concede the point. However, Anankos in this version would've been a far calmer and more level-headed villain and upon waking up, would've said "it's fine, you did what you could and at least now we have something to work with".

Craaaaawling iiiiinnnnn my skiiiiiiiin

You mentioned this concern before, so you might want to be careful about framing the story in such a way. "My sad, sad life: an autobiography by Kamui the Saddest Dragon" sounds a bit...melodramatic.

THESE WOOOOUNDS THEY WIIIIIIIILL NOT HEALLLLL!!!!

But yeah, that was a poor description. It's much more of a legitimate journal then what I described and features happy and humorous entries (albeit typically hinting at insecurity) along with the melancholic ones, but the more openly depressive ones are a direct influence of Anankos dicking around with his emotions and usually coincide with episodes i.e. cases when Anankos' influence causes emotional extremes that aren't normal, such as making him angry enough to try and attack anything within arms reach or collapse and burst into tears. Hell, the closest he's come to sadness so far is expressing worry that Jakob is only pretending to be his friend so that he doesn't lose his job or whatever which, considering the way he acts towards others, isn't an invalid concern. For example, the entry after he beats Xander will be ecstatic in tone and joyful at being able to see the outside world, then expressing frustration about how he ruined an opportunity to earn Garon's respect, then excited to finally leave Nohr and eager to begin his first military assignment, then deeply disturbed and distressed when the plot-twist comes about, still melancholic but happier in tone as he starts getting to know them better and finally absolutely gutted when Sumeragi blows up the town (but Mikoto doesn't die, so there's that).

Edited October 29, 2015 by Phillius

[Alazen]

I thought we had too many characters as it already was. I'm not sure adding more characters to make things more confusing, especially characters no one is likely to care about, is going to fix Touma's plot.

Well actually, after thinking about it I would say the problem for the major cast ultimately isn't that it has too many characters so much as the major cast needs more diversity in roles across the setting. We have two elder siblings who aren't really distinct enough (Ryoma and Hinoka). We have Camilla who is embarrassingly transparent marriage fodder. Did we need both little sisters? This goes in line with the Black and White conflict between the two nations, as Fates is careful to keep Hoshido's leadership as white as it can be through not showing any of those apparently shady daimyo.

While I advocate removing one of the elder Hoshido siblings, Aqua, etc., I do support putting in more characters like daimyo.

[Sunwoo]

And then you have the problem of people not being as interested in the characters you created while missing the established characters that you took out. And people are going to prefer established characters, as undeveloped as they are, over OCs. It just sounds like a bad idea to me.

EDIT: If anything, if you're already thinking about removing some of the siblings and adding in OCs, why not just retool the siblings you're going to take out into minor unrelated characters instead of making up OCs for that role?

Edited October 30, 2015 by Sunwoo

[Alazen]

So one shouldn't try to flesh out Hoshido's government?

[Sunwoo]

Don't put words in my mouth, because I never said that. This has nothing to with fleshing out the government, you can still do that without cutting out siblings or making a bunch of OCs relevant. Besides, why the hell did you even quote me I was talking to Metal Flash and his idea for Touma. -_-

[Metal Flash]

I thought we had too many characters as it already was. I'm not sure adding more characters to make things more confusing, especially characters no one is likely to care about, is going to fix Touma's plot.

You`ve got a good point, I`ll try to think more about this. Although I only want to give my own spin on things, I don`t need to make things confusing.

EDIT: Upon thinking about this more, I`ve decided that I have fallen into an obvious trap, too many Oc`s. I think that I will change my idea for Touma (and remove many Ocs in the process).

Edited October 30, 2015 by Metal Flash

[Sunwoo]

You`ve got a good point, I`ll try to think more about this. Although I only want to give my own spin on things, I don`t need to make things confusing.

Here's the thing: if you're going to use the background of Fates as a "stepping stone" to write your own story that would in the end have little to do with Fates, then what you're doing would be fine. But if you're intending it to strictly be a rewrite of Fates and you want people to read and enjoy it, you have to remember what people are coming here for. People will read it for the characters. They will come for the in-game characters that they know and love. If you're throwing in OCs left and right who suddenly have some increased importance to the overall plot, they're going to be hated more than Kamui.

[NekoKnight]

Exactly. I was really liking the idea, but then I realised how similar it was to Awakening and had a bit of a dilemma as to whether or not I should go through with it and hope no-one notices or try and change it. As for why the villain hasn't accomplished his goals, the idea that Gooron was told to 'maintain his cover over making Kamui cry' turned out to be far more limiting that Anankos thought it would be and that, while it would be reasonable for Garon to be more cynical and bitter following the Waifu Wars, but he couldn't go to far without arousing suspicion. An example of this is a side-story kind of thing in which I write about each of the characters lives as they grow up in which Real!Garon sends Gunther to the Northern Fortress to act as a 'caretaker' for him and to convert him to Nohr (the excuse for the abuse) 'by any means necessary'. Of course, we all know that Gunther got Kamui to come out of their shell by being kind, so when Gooron shows up and starts chastising Gunther for not using torture, he points out that he was told to use 'any means necessary'. Gooron then a) realises 'oh f*ck me, he actually has a point' and b) that Garon had a distaste for blindly obeying what could be considered 'traditional' applications of skill for lack of better words and praised people who found innovative solutions to problems and had no choice but to concede the point. However, Anankos in this version would've been a far calmer and more level-headed villain and upon waking up, would've said "it's fine, you did what you could and at least now we have something to work with".

Shouldn't prepping Kamui for consumption/possession be his number one priority? And how exactly would it blow his cover to ensure Kamui is isolated and broken? It's not like anyone can stop him, even if they think it out of character. He's the king after all.

[Metal Flash]

Here's the thing: if you're going to use the background of Fates as a "stepping stone" to write your own story that would in the end have little to do with Fates, then what you're doing would be fine. But if you're intending it to strictly be a rewrite of Fates and you want people to read and enjoy it, you have to remember what people are coming here for. People will read it for the characters. They will come for the in-game characters that they know and love. If you're throwing in OCs left and right who suddenly have some increased importance to the overall plot, they're going to be hated more than Kamui

True, I`m going for a rewrite more than my own story. I`ll have to think a lot about this. The royal guard, Seiji and Serena will be removed.

EDIT: I`m now considering not dealing with Touma, atleast for now.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Metal Flash

[Alazen]

Alright, here's a dream I've thought about that I hope would show more detail on who Kamui is:

[spoiler=Dream]There is a jubilee in Hoshido's capital. Guests from across the world traveled here for the occasion. From Izana of Izumo to the royal family of Nohr. There were even visitors from the Tribes.

As soon as the event was announced, a huge crowd gathered in the capital for the celebration. From farmer to daimyo, there was no telling how many showed up.

Feasting, joking, games. This jubilee has it all. It was such a fantastic time that even the thieves stayed their hand.

Suddenly, Joker walked through the streets to announce the coming of the Hoshido's new master. There were grasps and smiles at this. And then the royal entourage came within earshot.

Mounted on his steed, the newly crowned ruler of Hoshido Kamui rode through the city. Riding beside were selected bodyguards who are also mounted.

Joker motioned for the crowd to make way and seeing their ruler coming, immediately obeyed. Kamui rode to the core of the city followed by those behind. Kamui stopped the ride at the destination, surrounded by subjects around the city.

A voice shouted ''Long live Kamui! Heavenly sovereign of Hoshido and master of the East!''

Right after that, Kamui's subjects either quickly bowed or got on their knees. Now everything Kamui sees is fading into light.

Kamui was turning in sleep with a smile, shouting ''I have my birthright!''. But then awoke and after looking around became disappointed, maybe angry.

''I can win it later....''

Edited October 30, 2015 by Alazen

[Metal Flash]

Okay, here is my new idea for Touma:

Touma is an abandoned kingdom that is only known through rumours and legends. No one lives there, nor has anyone in either kingdom been there. At the moment, I`m planing for the main villan of the third path to reside there or Garon flees to Touma after things go sour for Nohr during the war.

[NekoKnight]

Alright, here's a dream I've thought about that I hope would show more detail on who Kamui is:

[spoiler=Dream]There is a jubilee in Hoshido's capital. Guests from across the world traveled here for the occasion. From Izana of Izumo to the royal family of Nohr. There were even visitors from the Tribes.

As soon as the event was announced, a huge crowd gathered in the capital for the celebration. From farmer to daimyo, there was no telling how many showed up.

Feasting, joking, games. This jubilee has it all. It was such a fantastic time that even the thieves stayed their hand.

Suddenly, Joker walked through the streets to announce the coming of the Hoshido's new master. There were grasps and smiles at this. And then the royal entourage came within earshot.

Mounted on his steed, the newly crowned ruler of Hoshido Kamui rode through the city. Riding beside were selected bodyguards who are also mounted.

Joker motioned for the crowd to make way and seeing their ruler coming, immediately obeyed. Kamui rode to the core of the city followed by those behind. Kamui stopped the ride at the destination, surrounded by subjects around the city.

A voice shouted ''Long live Kamui! Heavenly sovereign of Hoshido and master of the East!''

Right after that, Kamui's subjects either quickly bowed or got on their knees. Now everything Kamui sees is fading into light.

Kamui was turning in sleep with a smile, shouting ''I have my birthright!''. But then awoke and after looking around became disappointed, maybe angry.

''I can win it later....''

Nobunaga's Kamui's Ambition

Okay, here is my new idea for Touma:

Touma is an abandoned kingdom that is only known through rumours and legends. No one lives there, nor has anyone in either kingdom been there. At the moment, I`m planing for the main villan of the third path to reside there or Garon flees to Touma after things go sour for Nohr during the war.

Why was the kingdom abandoned?

[Alazen]

Well anyway, have any of you put any thought to Hoshidan treatment of its neighbors? After all, there's not just Imperial Japan's conquests but there's Hideyoshi and Co.'s invasion of Korea, the Mongols, etc., as examples of conquerors and hegemons.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Alazen

[Time the Crestfallen]

Well anyway, have any of you put any thought to Hoshidan treatment of its neighbors? After all, there's not just Imperial Japan's conquests but there's Hideyoshi and Co.'s invasion of Korea, the Mongols, etc., as examples of conquerors and hegemons.

Hoshido in the past was just as war-mongering and glory-seeking as Nohr and even more ruthless. While their are actually some benefits of living under Nohrian rule (protection from bandits, severely reduced crime rates and an opportunity to climb the Nohrian Hierarchy if you have talent in an are), Hoshido was extremely brutal, with outrageously high tributes that needed to be paid, unreasonably harsh punishments for when these offerings inevitable could not be made, censorship of culture and religion and downright vicious retaliations against rebellion (Kouga, the most rebellious of the Vassal States, was subject to more or less a country-wide Nanking Massacre near the end of Hoshido's dominance for instance). However, present-day Hoshido is both legitimately much more peaceful and diplomatic in attitude, but publicly speaking of such times is considered the most offensive thing one can do (imagine goose-stepping or doing the Sieg Hail in modern-day Germany and you'll have an idea of how rude it is and I am entirely too fond of WW2 analogies today...). Most the other Eastern Nations (except Kouga, who have understandably adopted a never forgive, never forget mentality) have similarly chosen to let those days be forgotten and have established moderately friendly trade relations with Hoshido. However, their is still a distrust of Hoshido deeply-rooted in their cultures, which isn't helped by the fact that their is a small and secretive group within Hoshido (including three High Priests) who believe that it is in Hoshido's best interest to return to such methods in order to combat Nohr, which isn't helped by the fact that this is true in theory (those times were Hoshido's 'glory-days' in terms of military and economic strength, but they aren't in a position to return to such methods any time soon).

Shouldn't prepping Kamui for consumption/possession be his number one priority? And how exactly would it blow his cover to ensure Kamui is isolated and broken? It's not like anyone can stop him, even if they think it out of character. He's the king after all.

I've actually been working on ways to make it less similar to Awakening (with little success, any suggestions?) and I'm planning on doing a thing with the 'invisible ties'. While in Awakening they were treated by the villains as worthless ideals and that Robins could cast them aside, Gooron and Co. actually plan to exploit them as part of their plans as they believed they could afford to play the long-game (while Anankos only hibernated for 11 years, they were supposed to stay asleep until Kamui was ready for possession. However, they're woken up prematurely when Kamui freaks out in Hoshido as they more or less 'sense a disturbance in the force' for lack of better phrasing). The plan more or less went like this:

1- Abuse Kamui both physically and emotionally in order to establish the unhealthy mental beliefs that will enable the latter stages i.e. guilt complex, poor self-esteem and the idea that he should never discuss his feelings with anyone.

2- Let Kamui interact with retainers and family while keeping up the abuse to ensure that he becomes mentally and emotionally dependent on them.

3- Start a war with Hoshido and use it as a cover to start killing them all of, preferably in situations that would lead Kamui to blame himself. This is harder than it sounds, as while Kamui does have problems with guilt, they're not completely unreasonable about it (they won't go 'Oh no! All my friends and family were assassinated while I was asleep, if only I had been awake at three in the morning so that I could've stopped this from happening!' for instance)

4- ???

5- Profit!