Alazen Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) So, what have any of you done with Lilith? Edited November 9, 2015 by Alazen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Time the Crestfallen Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Lilith is the last surviving Astral Dragon and Anankos' adopted daughter, but I'm working on the details. Iago and Ganz? I'd like to here what you guys are doing with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebony Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 -Aqua has been cut. Her being a foil to Kamui has been granted to Flora, Joker serves as the team planner, and Lilith can serve as the guide to the Hydra/Touma element of the setting. Okay this I wanna see. This sounds interesting but it's a bit hard for me to imagine tbh... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Paladin X Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 (edited) Keep in mind that Nintendo of America does make slight character personality and story changes with Awakening as well. If you ask me, the Fates localization should emphasize more on the "grey" aspect of morality (highlighting both positive and negative qualities of Hoshido and Nohr). The biggest criticism I have with Fates is that Nintendo manage to set up a great "grey vs. grey" morality storyline, but have the morality scale too favorable to Hoshido (even when you play the Nohr route). I think the morality grey stuff should be highlighted in some of the conversations as well. For example, have something like the Avatar expressing regret for fighting against the family he was raised in his/her life, but have someone line Azura, Sakura, or Ryoma remind the Avatar that his/her Nohr adopted family still loves him/her even if s/he sides with Hoshido and wants him/her to be a good person at heart because they raised him/her to be that way, since the Avatar only express guilt for joining Nohr. The Avatar can also express some guilt in Nohr by thinking of peace can only be achieved through war and mentions how s/he doesn't like war. Edited November 11, 2015 by Dark Paladin X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebony Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 I kinda wanna play around with the idea of a character being perfect, such as Kamui. That it gives them a lot to be held up to, to be "perfect." And that this makes them anxious and paranoid of failing. Similar to Tsubaki, I guess. Would this make sense for Kamui? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Time the Crestfallen Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 It would make sense for Kamui. But I can also see it working for the other Nohr siblings. Nohr strikes me as the kind of country where even a single mistake will result in a rather hefty loss of favour or a knife in the back, so do you have something that would make Kamui stand out? Maybe Kamui believes that since they live in the Northern Fortress, that they've done something to upset Garon and are extremely desperate to please him or something. Even if you don't, I can see Kamui with a perfectionist attitude working really well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alazen Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 (edited) Okay this I wanna see. This sounds interesting but it's a bit hard for me to imagine tbh... Flora is the daughter of her land's ruler. Having been defeated in war, Flora's father had his daughter sent to live in Nohr at an early age where she would be trained in and taught Nohrian methods and ideals. Meeting Kamui while stufy, the two end up in a circle as the years pass. Her path shifts through the routes. If Kamui stays with Nohr the two battle together. If Kamui leaves Nohr however, Flora ends up facing Kamui in battle (maybe representing what could have been). Edited November 11, 2015 by Alazen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 I kinda wanna play around with the idea of a character being perfect, such as Kamui. That it gives them a lot to be held up to, to be "perfect." And that this makes them anxious and paranoid of failing. Similar to Tsubaki, I guess. Would this make sense for Kamui? I think it fits Leon better, personally. He seems to be the one who holds himself to the highest standards and is most concerned with how others perceive him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alazen Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Would internalzing and trying to carry out Nohrian ideals or teachings (which includes conquest) count as ''being perfect''? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 "Perfection" is an imaginary construct that does not exist and is objective to each person who defines it. Honestly, a character who is perfect is going to draw ire from the readers, the people outside the universe they exist in, and therefore they are not perfect because they draw the ire of readers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Time the Crestfallen Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 "Perfection" is an imaginary construct that does not exist and is objective to each person who defines it. Honestly, a character who is perfect is going to draw ire from the readers, the people outside the universe they exist in, and therefore they are not perfect because they draw the ire of readers. I think what Ebony meant was that Kamui tries really hard to become what their idea of what perfection is and panics at the prospect of failing to live up to those expectations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alazen Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 (edited) I have gone with Kamui being focused on who he is meant to be. To bring glory to the royal house. The heavenly blood of Hoshido. The warrior. The heir. Kamui has grown through the years with expectations and internalization. If he stays with Nohr he is trying to bring glory to the royal house. If he leaves for Hoshido he is going to his birthright as the middle child of the Heavenly Siblings. Edited November 11, 2015 by Alazen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alazen Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 (edited) double post Edited November 11, 2015 by Alazen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebony Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 It would make sense for Kamui. But I can also see it working for the other Nohr siblings. Nohr strikes me as the kind of country where even a single mistake will result in a rather hefty loss of favour or a knife in the back, so do you have something that would make Kamui stand out? Maybe Kamui believes that since they live in the Northern Fortress, that they've done something to upset Garon and are extremely desperate to please him or something. Even if you don't, I can see Kamui with a perfectionist attitude working really well. Basically, this Kamui tries to be perfect at everything because they feel like it's the only thing to live up to, be what other people find to be "perfect." This extends to weaponry, in which case she strives to be all around good... but ends up only being good with the main weapon triangle, anything ranged is a no go. She pressures herself into trying to be as perfect as possible because if she doesn't, she feels like thousands will die. She's so use to compliments but she never liked them. "You're so pretty." "I could be prettier." "You're really fast." "I'm not fast enough." She believes that she hasn't hit a limit yet and never will. She wants to be told she doesn't have to keep trying because the pressure of being the best is getting to her. She can make no mistakes or else she'll be forgotten and dumped forever. She doesn't want to be held up to such high standards she doesn't believe she can reach - but she is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alazen Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 (edited) The angle I'm thinking of with Kamui is taking the premise of Fates and exploring shady implications. Premise: A child of one royal family is abducted by a king from another. The child is raised in the king's land until meeting up with his birth family. Kamui has to pick who to side with. Myself: What kind of person would Kamui have to be to seriously consider deserting the land he was raised and those she grew up with for strangers? And so, I've gone with Kamui growing up internalizing Nohr ideals while seeing Garon not placing him on the level with his actual children. Kamui is trying figure out who she's meant to be. Edited November 12, 2015 by Alazen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Paladin X Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Want to add this in: There is also a huge cultural difference when it comes to children being adopted and children's decision on siding your own bloodline or siding with your adopted family that raised you. In the Nohr storyline, when the Avatar sided with the family s/he was in (the family that raised, took care, and loved him as much as his "biological" siblings), that was completely portrayed in a negative light, seeing as "selfish". Normally in the west, it's perfectly okay for the adopted child to stay with his/her adopted family over his/her biological parents. However, in Japan (and a lot of East Asian cultures to be exact), this is highly frowned upon. This is why child adaptations from unrelated non-blood related families is incredibly rare in Japan. You'll notice this in anime when you see characters that were orphaned at early age have immediate family members such as aunts/uncles, older siblings, cousins, and grandparents taking care of the children over some complete stranger. This is because Japan values children to know and honor your own family bloodline over your adopted family bloodline. In situations where an immediate family member cannot take care of a child, they are often left into orphanages in someone's care or taken care by a family member's related friend, but often times, the child is reminded of one's family bloodline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Time the Crestfallen Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 The angle I'm thinking of with Kamui is taking the premise of Fates and exploring shady implications. Premise: A child of one royal family is abducted by a king from another. The child is raised in the king's land until meeting up with his birth family. Kamui has to pick who to side with. Myself: What kind of person would Kamui have to be to seriously consider deserting the land he was raised and those she grew up with for strangers? And so, I've gone with Kamui growing up internalizing Nohr ideals while seeing Garon not placing him on the level with his actual children. Kamui is trying figure out who she's meant to be. Basically, this Kamui tries to be perfect at everything because they feel like it's the only thing to live up to, be what other people find to be "perfect." This extends to weaponry, in which case she strives to be all around good... but ends up only being good with the main weapon triangle, anything ranged is a no go. She pressures herself into trying to be as perfect as possible because if she doesn't, she feels like thousands will die. She's so use to compliments but she never liked them. "You're so pretty." "I could be prettier." "You're really fast." "I'm not fast enough." She believes that she hasn't hit a limit yet and never will. She wants to be told she doesn't have to keep trying because the pressure of being the best is getting to her. She can make no mistakes or else she'll be forgotten and dumped forever. She doesn't want to be held up to such high standards she doesn't believe she can reach - but she is. Both of those sound really good. Anyway, it's Nohrian Sibling time! I'm not including Kamui here because I'm still trying to figure out the right amount of abuse from Garon that would make people thing "Yeah, that sucks, I feel sorry for him" without coming across as ridiculously over the top (If any of you have advice for this, I'm all ears). [spoiler= Xander] -Xander's driving purpose in life is the continued prosperity of Nohr and to do what is best for his country. Garon and Ecatarina's marriage was a political one as they never liked each other due to having nothing in common and disagreeing on almost everything that came up in conversation. However, Ecatarina's family was second in power only to the Royal Family at the time and as such, her parents were jockeying for a marriage between the two as doing so would make them virtually untouchable to the lesser Noble Houses as well as powerful. Garon eventually agreed as every other available woman at the time was very clearly going to abuse the power they would've gotten for personal gain (both Ecatarina and her house were at the very least sensible) and Ecatarina was very attractive if nothing else, so he reluctantly agreed. -The two birthed Xander very quickly and Ecatarina very quickly made it clear that they would not be 'engaging in gland-to-gland combat' as it were, that she would be engaging in extramarital affairs to satisfy those needs and that he would be free to do the same as long as nothing came of it that would compromise their marriage. - As you can imagine, this led to a...less than pleasant home life for Xander, especially when Garon's concubines started getting knocked up. Family dinners started with his parents swapping passive-aggressive insults and quickly descended into all-out fights that resulted in Xander excusing himself and eating in his room, both Garon and Ecatarina would compete with each other for his affection and try to manipulate him into despising the other parent and it seemed like everything he did would result in a fight (i.e. if he was practicing fighting then Ecatarina would pitch a fit and complain that he needs to learn about Nohrian etiquette and court-behaviour for example). This is what resulted in him being weak and introverted as he tried to do as little as possible in order to minimise his chances of starting a fight (which, of course, started fights). -But then Garon got sick of Ecatarina making his life miserable and decided that the King can do as he likes, damn the consequences and annulled his marriage with her before marrying Shenmei (but not really, there was no romance between them and it was just so that she and Azura could stay in Nohr without being harmed by Court Politics. Well, that was the plan anyway...). However, even without the immunity that their marriage gave them, Ecatarina's family had a massive powerbase and Ecatarina was able to maintain a significant presence at court. -While the initial consequences weren't bad, the concubines were incredibly upset when he 'married' Shenmei and started more openly competing for his affections. It wasn't too bad at first (although Azura suffered for it, despite Garon's attempts to prevent it), but Garon nevertheless told Xander that as long as he didn't try to influence their machinations (even for the sake of preventing it), that his status as Garon's First-Born Son would make him untouchable. -Unsurprisingly, it worked. Even when the concubines and the children were murdering each other ruthlessly, nobody would dare to go after him. Xander felt incredibly guilty over this as his physical weakness and shy personality made him feel as if he were a failure to Garon and that if anybody should be killed, it should be him. Countless times he considered trying to convince the other children to stop the fighting, but he never went through with it because he was scared of the consequences. By the time the Waifu Wars came to a close, Xander was left with massive Survivors Guilt as he felt that if any of the children were to die, it should've been him since he was useless at the time. -It was this that motivated Xander to get his shit together and become the heir that he was expected to be, swearing to himself that nothing like the Waifu Wars would happen ever again. Xander spent every waking moment improving his skills in the Art of War and the politics of Nohr and he improved rapidly, achieving a level of skill in two years that would take others a decade to reach, with his dedication to improving only becoming stronger after Azura was kidnapped and taken to Hoshido. -The present conflict comes from his struggle to justify the more recent actions of the Nohrian Military. While conquering nations and taking their resources actually is in Nohr's best interest, recent actions under newer military leaders(*cough cough* Ganz *cough cough*) have been needlessly aggressive and bordering on War-Crimes, which Gooron has made no effort to prevent and his even chastised him for reprimanding the offending parties. [spoiler=Camilla] -Camilla is casually flirty with strangers and friends, very affectionate and doting in a motherly way to her family and completely merciless to her enemies. Her mother was one of the greatest Nohrian Generals ever and Captain of the Royal Guard at the time and her relationship with Garon was a physical one; she was the best 'performer' in bed and was one of the two people at the time (the other being Gunther) who could last more than ten seconds against Garon in a sparring match when he went all out. She was also the least bothered by Garon's womanising, because their relationship had very little to do with emotions despite the pregnancy. -Camilla was free to socialise with other willing children which, sadly, was restricted to Xander and Azura before the Waifu War started. However, her mother was a big believer in the policy of 'do unto others before they do unto you', so Camilla was taught to fight and assassinate others before being told to kill the other children. -Camilla was one of the most frequent killers during the Waifu Wars and has the second-highest body count amongst all the siblings (she killed the one with the highest with a poisoned potato) and was egged on by the gentle and loving reassurances of her mother, who would target the children's parents. This went on until only the main five were left, upon which Camilla was told to finish the job by killing Leo and Elise, upon which time her mother would take the heat by saying that she had been forcing Camilla to kill to ensure that she would have a bright future at the cost of her own life. When Camilla rather understandable expressed hesitation at the thought of killing a three and two year old respectively (most of the younger children had been killed off by people other than her), her mother made it clear that 'you're either with me or against me' before ordering her to do it or she shouldn't bother coming home. Finally realising that her mother was making her do unforgivable things, Camilla decided that enough was enough and killed her own mother (with a poisoned potato) before explaining everything that she'd done to Garon and asked for a quick death, but Garon forgave her, since it was blatantly clear that she was being manipulated by her mother. -The whole incident left her with rather significant self-esteem/guilt issues (despite Garon's forgiveness, she considers herself to be nothing more than a killer) as well as PTSD, which manifests itself through intense emotional distress when reminded of the Waifu Wars, Hyper-vigilance (she swore to always protect her surviving siblings and is always on red-alert for potential danger to them, dotes on the younger ones to an obsessive degree and has rather intense over-reactions when they suffer even the most minor injuries) and trouble sleeping. -Camilla is also the most adept at managing the Deadly Decadent Court of Hoshido and is actually the best at 'playing the game' as it were amongst the latest generation of Nobles, putting even seasoned veterans to shame. However, this has taken it's toll on her as being that good at politics as well as her other duties as a Royal child is an absolutely insane juggling act; she has to live up to the rather rigid standards of beauty for Nohrian Nobles while still staying in good fighting condition, make friends with basically every regular attendee of the courts while also having contingency plans in place in the event that they move against her or she needs to move against them, fulfill every deceitful goal required to improve the power of the Royal Household while ensuring that nothing can be traced back to said household and ensure that everyone would want to deal with her while also maintaining a reputation that she is not to be crossed. But she also has to keep up with modern military tactics and troop movements and maintain a healthy relationship with her family on top of all that. -Fortunately, she actually deals with all that pretty well from an outsiders perspective and has been lauded by Garon himself as an example of an ideal Nohrian. Unfortunately, this means that she cannot consult safely with anyone about her issues (Xander has enough issues of his own without having to worry about her and she really doesn't want her younger siblings to find out on principle alone), so she started resorting to drinking to deal with her issues and by the time of the story is an alcoholic. For what it's worth though, Camilla has the most emotional baggage out of all the Royals (with Kamui and Takumi being the runner-ups). Whelp, that's the older siblings done. I'll do Leo, Elise and maybe Kamui latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alazen Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Want to add this in: There is also a huge cultural difference when it comes to children being adopted and children's decision on siding your own bloodline or siding with your adopted family that raised you. In the Nohr storyline, when the Avatar sided with the family s/he was in (the family that raised, took care, and loved him as much as his "biological" siblings), that was completely portrayed in a negative light, seeing as "selfish". Normally in the west, it's perfectly okay for the adopted child to stay with his/her adopted family over his/her biological parents. However, in Japan (and a lot of East Asian cultures to be exact), this is highly frowned upon. This is why child adaptations from unrelated non-blood related families is incredibly rare in Japan. You'll notice this in anime when you see characters that were orphaned at early age have immediate family members such as aunts/uncles, older siblings, cousins, and grandparents taking care of the children over some complete stranger. This is because Japan values children to know and honor your own family bloodline over your adopted family bloodline. In situations where an immediate family member cannot take care of a child, they are often left into orphanages in someone's care or taken care by a family member's related friend, but often times, the child is reminded of one's family bloodline. Kamui should have been taken at a point where he was young enough to forget his ties to Hoshido. Nohr being framed as the ''wrong'' path is frankly a case of Fates' Hoshido-bias. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 [spoiler=Camilla] -Camilla is casually flirty with strangers and friends, very affectionate and doting in a motherly way to her family and completely merciless to her enemies. Her mother was one of the greatest Nohrian Generals ever and Captain of the Royal Guard at the time and her relationship with Garon was a physical one; she was the best 'performer' in bed and was one of the two people at the time (the other being Gunther) who could last more than ten seconds against Garon in a sparring match when he went all out. She was also the least bothered by Garon's womanising, because their relationship had very little to do with emotions despite the pregnancy. -Camilla was free to socialise with other willing children which, sadly, was restricted to Xander and Azura before the Waifu War started. However, her mother was a big believer in the policy of 'do unto others before they do unto you', so Camilla was taught to fight and assassinate others before being told to kill the other children. -Camilla was one of the most frequent killers during the Waifu Wars and has the second-highest body count amongst all the siblings (she killed the one with the highest with a poisoned potato) and was egged on by the gentle and loving reassurances of her mother, who would target the children's parents. This went on until only the main five were left, upon which Camilla was told to finish the job by killing Leo and Elise, upon which time her mother would take the heat by saying that she had been forcing Camilla to kill to ensure that she would have a bright future at the cost of her own life. When Camilla rather understandable expressed hesitation at the thought of killing a three and two year old respectively (most of the younger children had been killed off by people other than her), her mother made it clear that 'you're either with me or against me' before ordering her to do it or she shouldn't bother coming home. Finally realising that her mother was making her do unforgivable things, Camilla decided that enough was enough and killed her own mother (with a poisoned potato) before explaining everything that she'd done to Garon and asked for a quick death, but Garon forgave her, since it was blatantly clear that she was being manipulated by her mother. -The whole incident left her with rather significant self-esteem/guilt issues (despite Garon's forgiveness, she considers herself to be nothing more than a killer) as well as PTSD, which manifests itself through intense emotional distress when reminded of the Waifu Wars, Hyper-vigilance (she swore to always protect her surviving siblings and is always on red-alert for potential danger to them, dotes on the younger ones to an obsessive degree and has rather intense over-reactions when they suffer even the most minor injuries) and trouble sleeping. -Camilla is also the most adept at managing the Deadly Decadent Court of Hoshido and is actually the best at 'playing the game' as it were amongst the latest generation of Nobles, putting even seasoned veterans to shame. However, this has taken it's toll on her as being that good at politics as well as her other duties as a Royal child is an absolutely insane juggling act; she has to live up to the rather rigid standards of beauty for Nohrian Nobles while still staying in good fighting condition, make friends with basically every regular attendee of the courts while also having contingency plans in place in the event that they move against her or she needs to move against them, fulfill every deceitful goal required to improve the power of the Royal Household while ensuring that nothing can be traced back to said household and ensure that everyone would want to deal with her while also maintaining a reputation that she is not to be crossed. But she also has to keep up with modern military tactics and troop movements and maintain a healthy relationship with her family on top of all that. -Fortunately, she actually deals with all that pretty well from an outsiders perspective and has been lauded by Garon himself as an example of an ideal Nohrian. Unfortunately, this means that she cannot consult safely with anyone about her issues (Xander has enough issues of his own without having to worry about her and she really doesn't want her younger siblings to find out on principle alone), so she started resorting to drinking to deal with her issues and by the time of the story is an alcoholic. For what it's worth though, Camilla has the most emotional baggage out of all the Royals (with Kamui and Takumi being the runner-ups). I think Camilla's mother being both willing to take the heat for Camilla's killings AND willing to disown her if she refuses to kill Leon and Elise contradictory, and overly grimdark. [spoiler=And what's with all the poisoned potatoes?] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Time the Crestfallen Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 (edited) I think Camilla's mother being both willing to take the heat for Camilla's killings AND willing to disown her if she refuses to kill Leon and Elise contradictory, and overly grimdark. [spoiler=And what's with all the poisoned potatoes?] Yeah, hindsight's 20/20 on that one. How about instead Camilla said that she couldn't go through with it since they were so young, but her mother was 'fine' with it in that she was going to do it herself so her 'precious daughter' wouldn't have to, so Camilla killed her to save Leo and Elise? I'm going to assume everything else is fine though, since this is your only criticism so far. Also the poison potatoes are a Simpsons joke; Mr. Burns had 10 older siblings who were competing with each other to inherit the family fortune. Four of them were killed by poisoned potatoes. Edited November 12, 2015 by Phillius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 (edited) Yeah, hindsight's 20/20 on that one. How about instead Camilla said that she couldn't go through with it since they were so young, but her mother was 'fine' with it in that she was going to do it herself so her 'precious daughter' wouldn't have to, so Camilla killed her to save Leo and Elise? I'm going to assume everything else is fine though, since this is your only criticism so far. Also the poison potatoes are a Simpsons joke; Mr. Burns had 10 older siblings who were competing with each other to inherit the family fortune. Four of them were killed by poisoned potatoes. The troublesome bit is the part about willing to take the heat for Camilla even though she knows it will mean death. That's like... psychotically devoted to her daughter's future, you know? So I'd cut that bit and have Camilla kill her mum to save Elise and Leon, have her confess to Garon expecting to get executed and then Garon would be like "YOU killed a royal guard? Props to you, my new favorite daughter!" Maybe I'm just a firm believer of "simple is better" (unless you are committed to writing a novel) but you might have a little too much on Camilla's plate. Best warrior, best political player, most beautiful woman, assassin... all that on top of being a functional alcoholic. I don't think realistically a person like that could manage that many responsibilities while having that much personal baggage. Edit: Some commentary on Marx: I know court politics and power bases are a thing but Ecaterina openly defying Garon shouldn't be possible. He's the King. He CAN do whatever he wants and having his wife executed for adultery is as legitimate an excuse as they come. Whatever power her family has, his family should have more. If they didn't, he probably wouldn't be the king. Gosh, Nohr seems like a tremendously shitty place. Is it really possible that EVERYONE is this awful? Edited November 12, 2015 by NekoKnight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Time the Crestfallen Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 The troublesome bit is the part about willing to take the heat for Camilla even though she knows it will mean death. That's like... psychotically devoted to her daughter's future, you know? So I'd cut that bit and have Camilla kill her mum to save Elise and Leon, have her confess to Garon expecting to get executed and then Garon would be like "YOU killed a royal guard? Props to you, my new favorite daughter!" Maybe I'm just a firm believer of "simple is better" (unless you are committed to writing a novel) but you might have a little too much on Camilla's plate. Best warrior, best political player, most beautiful woman, assassin... all that on top of being a functional alcoholic. I don't think realistically a person like that could manage that many responsibilities while having that much personal baggage. Yeah, your idea probably works better. By that point, Garon hated all of his concubines, so he wouldn't be to bothered by them dying anyway. As for Camilla having a lot on her plate, I didn't intend for it to come across like that. Allow me to explain: Best Warrior- She's not, she was only good by the standards of children. In fact, not including the little sisters, she's actually the worst direct fighter (the order being Xander/Ryoma--->Kamui--->Hinoka--->Leo--->Takumi--->Camilla--->Elise/Sakura). In battle, she mows down soldiers by the dozens like any other Royal child would, but she's a lot more reliant on Dragon's Vein and her prf. weapon than the others and her mount is so ridiculously OP that even Xander and Ryoma would have a hard time taking it down. Best Political Player- She is this, but this is her area of expertise, so I'm fine with that. Most beautiful woman- For Nohrian standards? Arguably yes, but it's not universal. Take my version of Kamui for example, who is very much a 'pretty boy' in addition to his draconian features; Hoshidan standards of beauty include both traditionally masculine traits and feminine looking ones for males which, in addition to his draconian features (Hoshido being a Dragon-Worshipping culture) makes him pretty desirable. But in Nohr, the standards of beauty for men are based squarely around the rugged handsomeness aesthetic and the religion (while Nohr is a more secular nation, the religion is still somewhat prominent) is based around the idea of 'dragons suck, humanity f*ck yeah!', so Kamui is considered homely at best and leans into uncanny valley at worst. Best Assassin- Again, not really no. The reason the kids were used to kill each other was because, well, nobody in their right mind would suspect the kids of being the killers (not at first anyway) and her mother was a Royal Guard, so poisoning potatoes was a pretty easy thing for her to do and again, she was only good by the standards of kids. I know court politics and power bases are a thing but Ecaterina openly defying Garon shouldn't be possible. He's the King. He CAN do whatever he wants and having his wife executed for adultery is as legitimate an excuse as they come. Whatever power her family has, his family should have more. If they didn't, he probably wouldn't be the king. Gosh, Nohr seems like a tremendously shitty place. Is it really possible that EVERYONE is this awful? True, but neither Garon or Ecatarina wanted to marry each other and the only reason that they did was because every other bachelorette available was not the kind of person you want to wield power. Both of them were by all rights perfectly decent people who were forced into a very unfortunate arrangement. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by 'defiant'. If you're referring to the affairs, then it should be mentioned that it was a mutual thing and that Ecatarina had to be a lot more careful about it than Garon did, as while he was able to get away with getting his concubines pregnant (albeit with some eyebrows being raised), her being pregnant with another mans child would indeed, be grounds for execution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Yeah, your idea probably works better. By that point, Garon hated all of his concubines, so he wouldn't be to bothered by them dying anyway. As for Camilla having a lot on her plate, I didn't intend for it to come across like that. Allow me to explain: Best Warrior- She's not, she was only good by the standards of children. In fact, not including the little sisters, she's actually the worst direct fighter (the order being Xander/Ryoma--->Kamui--->Hinoka--->Leo--->Takumi--->Camilla--->Elise/Sakura). In battle, she mows down soldiers by the dozens like any other Royal child would, but she's a lot more reliant on Dragon's Vein and her prf. weapon than the others and her mount is so ridiculously OP that even Xander and Ryoma would have a hard time taking it down. Best Political Player- She is this, but this is her area of expertise, so I'm fine with that. Most beautiful woman- For Nohrian standards? Arguably yes, but it's not universal. Take my version of Kamui for example, who is very much a 'pretty boy' in addition to his draconian features; Hoshidan standards of beauty include both traditionally masculine traits and feminine looking ones for males which, in addition to his draconian features (Hoshido being a Dragon-Worshipping culture) makes him pretty desirable. But in Nohr, the standards of beauty for men are based squarely around the rugged handsomeness aesthetic and the religion (while Nohr is a more secular nation, the religion is still somewhat prominent) is based around the idea of 'dragons suck, humanity f*ck yeah!', so Kamui is considered homely at best and leans into uncanny valley at worst. Best Assassin- Again, not really no. The reason the kids were used to kill each other was because, well, nobody in their right mind would suspect the kids of being the killers (not at first anyway) and her mother was a Royal Guard, so poisoning potatoes was a pretty easy thing for her to do and again, she was only good by the standards of kids. I guess the biggest concern I have is Camilla's alcoholism coming off as an informed flaw (a popular choice of fake flaws, amongst poor writers). While Tyrion (GoT again) is extremely talented, his alcoholism (and whoring) makes him disrespected at court and it's only because people don't have high expectations of him that he can get away with it. If a character like Camilla had a legitimate drinking problem, it seems to me it would be hard to maintain a positive image (the kind needed to be popular in court) along with all the other duties she has (being a warrior, royal child and all that). How does Kamui rank that high and Camilla that low? Isn't Kamui the least experienced in battle? Wouldn't Camilla be the most experience after Marx? True, but neither Garon or Ecatarina wanted to marry each other and the only reason that they did was because every other bachelorette available was not the kind of person you want to wield power. Both of them were by all rights perfectly decent people who were forced into a very unfortunate arrangement. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by 'defiant'. If you're referring to the affairs, then it should be mentioned that it was a mutual thing and that Ecatarina had to be a lot more careful about it than Garon did, as while he was able to get away with getting his concubines pregnant (albeit with some eyebrows being raised), her being pregnant with another mans child would indeed, be grounds for execution. Unless I'm mistaking how royal dynasties work, the king and queen don't have an equal relationship. A queen exists to serve her king; the most important job being bearing a suitable heir. The king can have all the affairs we wants because who's going to tell him he can't? The queen on the other hand has to obey her husband and TELLING her husband that she doesn't intend to be faithful sounds like a move likely to get her executed (hardly controversial, considering how important societies value women being faithful to their husbands). Pissing off Garon would motivate him to find a new wife, disgrace her family and defeat the purpose of getting a political marriage in the first place. If the wife was having SECRET affairs, it might be understandable (you still get the strained home life for Marx) but having an affair the king is aware about is absurd. It also makes Garon look pussy-whipped, if you'll forgive the crude language. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Time the Crestfallen Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 I guess the biggest concern I have is Camilla's alcoholism coming off as an informed flaw (a popular choice of fake flaws, amongst poor writers). While Tyrion (GoT again) is extremely talented, his alcoholism (and whoring) makes him disrespected at court and it's only because people don't have high expectations of him that he can get away with it. If a character like Camilla had a legitimate drinking problem, it seems to me it would be hard to maintain a positive image (the kind needed to be popular in court) along with all the other duties she has (being a warrior, royal child and all that). How does Kamui rank that high and Camilla that low? Isn't Kamui the least experienced in battle? Wouldn't Camilla be the most experience after Marx? -Camilla's issues with alcohol is more about withdrawal symptoms and how reliant she is on it to get through the day. -Camilla is the lowest warrior because she has so many other duties that something has to suffer. She specifically chose the Revenant Knight 'class' because it doesn't require as much skill as others (the mount does half the work). What I'm trying to say is that she has a lot of battlefield experience, but very little technical skill in favour of raw power and Kamui, well, that's another thing entirely and I'm likely going to save it for his entry, but the tl;dr version is that he's a genetic freak. Unless I'm mistaking how royal dynasties work, the king and queen don't have an equal relationship. A queen exists to serve her king; the most important job being bearing a suitable heir. For modern, real-life royal dynasties that is the case. But while I do believe that a certain level of realism is required, I'm not going to slavishly devote myself to realism for a story that a) contains magic and b) features nations that are inspired by real-life nations. In real-life medieval ages, women weren't allowed to do much other than domestic duties and princesses existed solely for the purpose of being married off, but that is hardly the case for Fire Emblem. The king can have all the affairs we wants because who's going to tell him he can't? The queen on the other hand has to obey her husband and TELLING her husband that she doesn't intend to be faithful sounds like a move likely to get her executed (hardly controversial, considering how important societies value women being faithful to their husbands). Pissing off Garon would motivate him to find a new wife, disgrace her family and defeat the purpose of getting a political marriage in the first place. If the wife was having SECRET affairs, it might be understandable (you still get the strained home life for Marx) but having an affair the king is aware about is absurd. It also makes Garon look pussy-whipped, if you'll forgive the crude language. This is my bad, as that was a poor choice of words on my part (again). In my mind, they both sat down after Xander was born and mutually agreed that they didn't like each other and that they should see other people other people for the purposes of 'satisfaction', be it physical, intellectual or emotional in nature and that most of their fights were disagreements on how to raise Xander intensified by the fact that they were two people who didn't like each other, but were nevertheless forced to spend a lot of time with each other. However, I will admit that you have a point and propose that it was Garon who initiated it by basically saying "I don't like you and you don't like me. I'll be seeing other people and I don't care what you think about it. However, I'm not a hypocrite, so you can do the same, just don't get caught because I don't want to deal with the political sh*tstorm that would cause". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 -Camilla's issues with alcohol is more about withdrawal symptoms and how reliant she is on it to get through the day. -Camilla is the lowest warrior because she has so many other duties that something has to suffer. She specifically chose the Revenant Knight 'class' because it doesn't require as much skill as others (the mount does half the work). What I'm trying to say is that she has a lot of battlefield experience, but very little technical skill in favour of raw power and Kamui, well, that's another thing entirely and I'm likely going to save it for his entry, but the tl;dr version is that he's a genetic freak. Unless all of her half-sibling kills were via toxic root vegetables, I'd say she'd need a fair bit of talent as a fighter. Also, I'd say it takes as much skill if not more to fight atop a flying mount but that's just me. This is my bad, as that was a poor choice of words on my part (again). In my mind, they both sat down after Xander was born and mutually agreed that they didn't like each other and that they should see other people other people for the purposes of 'satisfaction', be it physical, intellectual or emotional in nature and that most of their fights were disagreements on how to raise Xander intensified by the fact that they were two people who didn't like each other, but were nevertheless forced to spend a lot of time with each other. However, I will admit that you have a point and propose that it was Garon who initiated it by basically saying "I don't like you and you don't like me. I'll be seeing other people and I don't care what you think about it. However, I'm not a hypocrite, so you can do the same, just don't get caught because I don't want to deal with the political sh*tstorm that would cause". I like this reframing. Your first description sounded like Garon was getting bossed around his harlot wife. Not very becoming of a serious character, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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