Isadora

[-Cynthia-]

You guys are really underselling Lowen. Without Lyn mode, his early availability and bases make him arguably better than Kent for a significant portion if the game.

Kent Cavalier 5 23 8 7 8 4 6 1

Lowen Cavalier 2 23 7 5 7 3 7 0

It is also an absoloute given that Lowen will have gotten a few levels by the time you even get to Caelin, so it's pretty likely he's going to have gotten at least one proc of strength and speed if not more (being better than level 5 is not unrealistic). If we compare averages at some key levels then;

Kent Cavalier 10 27.25 10 9.25 10.25 5 7.25 2.25

Lowen Cavalier 10 30.2 9.4 7.4 9.4 7 10.2 2.4

Note that frankly, it's probably fair to assume Lowen would be an extra level or two ahead of Kent at any given point due to his availability lead, at which point he is equal or better in everything besides Skill, and his AS buffer with Javelins is non negligble. Kent only realistically really pulls ahead of Lowen offensively after like another 10 or so levels, since the 10% or so gap in growths only translates into expected stats after that amount.

Kent Paladin 15/6 37.75 15 15.25 15.75 7 11.75 5.75

Lowen Paladin 15/6 41.2 13.4 11.4 13.4 12 16.2 6.4

Again, assuming Lowen is ahead just 2 levels (or Kent is behind 2) puts the offensive parameter gap down to one point, and Lowen can make up the 1-2 range dmg difference with a Hand Axe vs Kent's Javelin without losing AS (although admittedly Kent has enough speed to cushion the same thing anyway at this point).

On the topic of isadora, she is a pretty good Paladin at anything that demands 1 range weaponry, but she flounders pretty badly with 1-2, and can't be expected to survive substantial enemy phase exposure. In principle, whilst she's easy to use, she just doesn't have that many significant contributions.

I agree with Kent not being much better than Lowen offensively. Not sure I'm on board with the 'Isadora struggles to use 1-2 range weapons though' given how low enemy AS is in this game. Hawkeye for instance only has 11 AS base(same as Isadora w/Javelin and no Body Ring) and people rarely state that his offense flounders badly because of this. With the Body Ring and at base, Isadora has 13 AS with a Javelin and 12 with a Hand Axe, along with a 50% Spd growth for additional buffering. Additionally, it's generally better to have a lower Con and higher base AS than the other way around since Isadora can switch to a lighter weapon if she wants to double mercenaries or whatever.

Edited August 1, 2015 by -Cynthia-

[Irysa]

Hawkeye's 11AS is really borderline for the point in the game he shows up, and he misses the double on lots of enemies. He's still capable of doubling the weighed down Wyvern Riders though, and hitting like a Truck, and he has the Brave Axe as well for other offensive duties. He is also a million times more durable than Isadora is ever going to be.

However, I did I forgot to state on the fact that I was considering a raw, base Isadora. Without that extra 2 AS from the Body Ring, she's missing the double on Wyvern Lords, Snipers, and various Magic users when using 1-2 weaponry. I kind of hastily added in the Isadora thing after the Lowen thing because I wanted to stay on topic so I didn't really develop that properly, but I was trying to address Banzai's claims that "she's fine at base", when really she wants the Angelic Robe and the Body Ring to reach her potential.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Irysa

[XeKr]

If rigging is not a thing, I don’t think averages accurately capture Kent’s Spd advantage.

“pretty likely” to proc 1 Str or Spd by level 5 is 65.7% for each stat which is not that likely…

To have 10 Spd or more at level 10.

Kent is 74.4% likely. Lowen is 44.8% likely.

To have 13 Spd or more at 15/6

Kent is 95.8% likely. Lowen is 66.7% likely

That’s a big difference if the benchmark matters (maybe it doesn’t? but apparently 11/13 AS is borderlineish)

edit: uh I think Kent is better and than Isadora vs. Lowen depends on how much you care Lowen is worse than Sain/Kent (Isadora is somewhat more rngproof. But fwiw I think I lean toward Lowen atm).

Edited August 4, 2015 by XeKr

[Irysa]

That's fair, however

“pretty likely” to proc 1 Str or Spd by level 5 is 65.7% for each stat which is not that likely…

...those occur at the same time. It's an 88% chance that he gets at least one str or speed in 3 levels. For a single stat its 65%. For both it's 42%. An extra level adds about a 10%~ increase in probability to all of them, so it's not quite as bad as you're making it out to be. I will say I should have said "strength or speed" rather than both though, that was incorrect.

Anyway, a large part of that post sort of rested on the assumption that Lowen could sustain a level lead vs Kent comparatively if one opted to use one but not the other, which helps out with his likeliness to reach particular benchmarks, and that there is a lack of units to take abundant EXP early on, so Lowen is half obligated to recieve a decent chunk of that EXP. Frankly, Marcus is still doing more heavy lifting than either of them for such a ridiculously huge portion of the game that its sort of negligble in a non rigged scenario, because there's a lot of self improving vs bad enemies going on in this game for any growth unit.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Irysa

[Mekkah]

There's so much more to FE7 than simply movement. It's a big point of the game, but it's not end all be all. If it was, Vaida would be good for the time she's around.

Well, Vaida is good for the time she's around! She's super bulky (47 HP/22 Def), has high Str (22) and she's fast enough to double (14 Spd and 12 con). She's basically Haar with more Speed. The only thing wrong with her is availability.

[Brinzy]

I probably should have left out "for the time she's around", because yeah, she is REALLY strong when you get to use her. That 12 Con is awesome (and twice as much as Lawlsidora's)

[dondon151]

it makes vaida unable to rescue a lot of characters

comparisons involving isadora using 1-2 range weapons tend to not be representative of her performance. isadora's bulk is a problem and she's not frequently in those situations where she runs into a pile of enemies brandishing a javelin.

[Brinzy]

Having the ability to rescue many characters is a plus, but as far as ranked is concerned, I would much rather have higher Con and lower Aid than the other way around, assuming Con is so low that you lose speed from a lot of your good weapons... especially as a paladin. It's far more important to me that a unit is capable all around than for their only utility to be Rescuing and Javelin tossing. Higher movement, while also a plus, is not (for me) a substitution for being troublesome to fully use.

This is my biggest problem with Isadora. There are so many rules and stipulations to using her, and then when those conditions are met, she isn't even spectacular at it.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Brinzy

[Radiant Dragon]

This is my biggest problem with Isadora. There are so many rules and stipulations to using her, and then when those conditions are met, she isn't even spectacular at it.

*shrugs* Not every character is meant to perform every role equally well. Just because she doesn't tank with Javelins as well as your other Paladins doesn't mean there's 'rules and stipulations' to using her - she has a different role. That's like saying Priscilla has 'rules and stipulations' to using her because she can't tank with Javelins either. Actually, she does have one condition to using her: keeping her away from enemies, so that's one more 'condition' than Isadora (note, I'm not trying to use this to say that Isadora > Priscilla, but rather just to illustrate that this isn't a good argument). No one, with the possible exception of a trained Heath, tanks with 1-2 range weaponry as well as your male Paladins. They have the perfect combination of weaponry, stats and move. Characters like Raven and Pent probably come the closest, but they lack the move and canto advantage that Paladins do.

That being said, Isadora's role (high single-target damage due to good offensive stats and access to weaponry that your Cavaliers might not have the ranks for yet) isn't as useful because the game likes throwing a bunch of individually weak enemies at you. However, Isadora has the option of taking some resources to perform this role almost as well as your other Paladins if you need/want her to, which is more than most units in the game can say. In ranked runs, those resources do come at a slightly higher cost so Isadora's options are more limited there, true.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Radiant Dragon

[Brinzy]

She doesn't have a "different role." She is a combat unit like all but three other units in the game, two of which promote to combat units. The only notable difference between her and some other combat units is being on a horse. This is not about tanking with Javelins. This is about how she has to be so close on the frontlines that saying, "Oh just use Javelins" isn't enough of an excuse to make up for her pathetic bulk. I used Javelins as an example to demonstrate how her large weapon accessibility is compromised by her pathetic Con and bulk, not to exclusively complain that she can't tank with Javelins.

That being said, Isadora's role (high single-target damage due to good offensive stats and access to weaponry that your Cavaliers might not have the ranks for yet) isn't as useful because the game likes throwing a bunch of individually weak enemies at you.

Or how about it isn't as useful because her offense simply is not as good as we want to make it sound?

It's good on her joining map, it's irrelevant the next two chapters, it's decent the following two chapters, and then it begins to falls off rapidly after that thanks to the abundant wyvern riders and promoted units that you begin to see, which either take little damage from her (13 base Str + 30% growth on a prepromoted unit) or threaten her badly (bad bulk).

Potential parameters by 24 for some units:

Name      Lv  HP     Str   Skl   Spd    Lck   Def   Res
Isadora   1   28     13	   12    16     10    8     6
Geitz     3   40     17	   12	 13	10    11    3
Lucius    18  25.25  16	   13.5  16     5     2.5   15
Erk       16  26.75  11	   12	 14.5   7.5   5	    10
Heath     10  34.4   14.5  11.5	 10.35  7.6   11.9  2.6
Fiora     16  27.3   11.15 16.4	 17.5	8.7   7.8   11.5
Florina   18  27.2   11.8  15.5	 18.35	15.5  6.55  9.95
Canas     15  25.9   13.15 11.8	 10.45	8.75  6.75  11.15
Kent      17  33.6   12.4  14	 14.2	5.2   9     5

This is not to say these are exactly where everyone is going to be, because you probably aren't training all of these units, and some may be higher depending on what you're doing with them. I realize that comparing her to the other paladins, while logical, can be unfair. There's no rule that says we can't stack paladins. However, if we compare her offense to the likes of most other combat units, it really isn't special.

Consider that all of these units are a lower level than her. Also consider that she stays at level xx/1 for 4-5 chapters, including her starting chapter, thanks to simply having better options to field or give experience to. I have not done Lloyd/Linus HHM in a while (currently on Genesis), but aren't there relatively strong and quick sword users + wyverns + a few casters on Linus map?

The main advantage she has over these other units is movement, but all of these units with similar or superior combat parameters bring notable advantages themselves (flight, hitting Res, availability, whatever you want to compare)... and then they promote. This ignores units that are very clearly superior to Isadora like Raven and Sain, units like Serra and Priscilla that fill completely different roles until they promote and become better at combat, and units that come after chapter 24. These units get deployment over Isadora in nearly all cases anyway. I could go to, say, chapter 28 and compare her to other units, but she will gain maybe 5-6 level ups if you use her diligently, while these other units could gain those same 5-6 (or more thanks to not being promoted) level ups and have promotion bonuses as well. 28 is the last chapter I would ever potentially deploy her, so what good is it, really?

Speaking of availability, the interesting thing to note about this character is the majority of statistically good units that come after Isadora, namely Harken, Pent, Vaida, and Farina, are all deployable late game for more than experience padding. I would not care about her having a few weak chapters after recruitment if her usefulness didn't take a nosedive after Battle Before Dawn. Sure, it's as simple as "don't field her." So why am I fielding her beforehand to take kills if she's just getting benched anyway? You're right, her advantages are not well-suited for the game, so why do we even care about her weapon ranks if they're not a big deal?

Edited August 8, 2015 by Brinzy

[Loriciferica]

I didn't use her.

I might have considered using her if my cavaliers turned out poorly enough, but they didn't and the Angelic Robe went to storage.