Isadora

[-Cynthia-]

I didn't post the video to showcase that Lowen/Kent were better than Isadora (it's pretty clear that they are imo, but that's a different matter), I just posted it to show that the sages can be killed by pretty much anybody with greater than 10 speed and a decent weapon, so Isadora isn't alone here You even get Filla's might in the chapter before so some weaker dudes can snag some kills. Lowen was wayyyy ahead of his averages here (he was like +6/7 speed?) but at the same time, the average playthrough is probably taking around 20 turns longer by that point of the game, so he'll have more levels as a result.

I'm not saying Isadora isn't capable of doing what you say she can (she definately can) but many many units can do the same. You have a brave axe, and a brave bow too, and while you could say its a waste of uses, when else are you ever going to use them?

All i'm saying is Isadora isn't a fantastic unit. She's decent filler, nothing else past that. Have an extra unit slot? She can fill it and do alright.

Rath probably doesn't have the Atk to ORKO with the Brave Bow. The Brave Axe on Marcus can do similarly, but like everyone is worse than Marcus anyway. I've done non-rigged playthroughs of FE7 that were definitely not 20 turns behind yours at that point, so definitely a dubious claim. Most combat is handled by Marcus+early promoted Kent/Sain anyway.

I actually agree with your overall assessment, she's a filler unit- pretty good filler given 8 Mov, WTC, and decent stats. My issue is more how you overrate units like Lowen, who on an average playthrough had mediocre to bad offense from beginning to end. I'd probably rank him above Isadora because he has good availability and can rescue drop in earlier chapters, but without rigging he's nothing special.

[Elieson]

I actually agree with your overall assessment, she's a filler unit- pretty good filler given 8 Mov, WTC, and decent stats. My issue is more how you overrate units like Lowen, who on an average playthrough had mediocre to bad offense from beginning to end. I'd probably rank him above Isadora because he has good availability and can rescue drop in earlier chapters, but without rigging he's nothing special.

I think this sums up my feelings on the pair.

In Efficiency/LTC/Ranked, Lowen can be pretty good as your early joining cav, but he isn't leagues above Isadora due to just appearing first, and fills a niche that isadora doesn't really do herself for a little while.

[Brinzy]

For non-ranked, non-LTC play, I gotta disagree with Horace, I think Izzy is way better than Lowen. Lowen just doesn't do jack dick at any point in the game. Earlygame he's chip damage that can take a hit or two, your offensive options early are Marcus Oswin and Hector and everyone else gets left behind unless you're trying to feed exp, and if you're feeding exp to anyone early your best bet is Eliwood or even Rebecca who at least reach an offensive threshold at SOME POINT in the game. Lowen meanwhile has a sluggish midgame and a barely passable lategame, it takes him forever to start ORKOing because of his dismal speed and strength growths. Also he starts D swords and D lances, bleck. As the stat guy showed in an above post, Izzy has 2 more strength than 12/1 Lowen (since his growth is 30% it would take 6 additional levels for him to match her), PLUS Izzy has access to Silver Sword literally as soon as she joins, since she joins with Silver Sword. While her str is bad her high speed growth allows her to continue using strong weapons, which by the time she joins you have a pretty steady supply to tide over for the rest of the game.

Basically we're talking about an offensively competent unit with 8 move who is offensively competent from the moment she joins. Lowen's main gate to being used is about 1400 exp + a Knight Seal that would better go to Kent, Sain, or even goddam Oswin, Izzy's main gate to being used is the unit slot it takes to field her

Is there a particular reason why Oswin is seen by you as an offensive unit when he's just dishing bigger hits? They fill the same role for me usually, only one of them has a lot more Strength and Defense to start off and the other one is a lot more mobile. You speak of offensive capabilities, but I can't see where Oswin's offense is a gigantic factor in clearing things quickly, because he can't one hit the majority of enemies (and the ones he can one hit tend to be ORKO'd by someone else anyway), he has 4 base move, and he comes at level 9 so he gains very little experience. It's just really difficult for me to imagine a world where you're using Oswin over Lowen by the time you recruit Isadora to begin with.

Oswin's main draw is being a very durable unit at a point in the game where few units can take a hit. The more units that don't fold easily, the less useful he is. Then you have maps where heavy movement is a thing, or even maps where having limited movement automatically makes him pretty terrible. I mean... does anyone field Oswin in the desert, Genesis, or Pale Flower of Darkness? How about Battle Before Dawn, Cog of Destiny, Victory or Death, or even Four-Fang Offense? I can see him being useful if you're Rescuing him and putting him up front to tank hits, but then... why am I doing this and not simply putting experience into Lowen? It seems like your argument is that because Lowen has a bad late game, he's not worth giving experience to, but consider that Oswin has an even worse lategame when he is definitely not ORKOing anything, has limited movement, and is almost equally susceptible to spellcasters. I honestly wouldn't use either of them.

... and then you have Isadora, who does not have significantly better offense than either of those units late game anyway, even with Body Ring investment, thanks to Strength nearly as bad as Lowen and taking counters so much worse than Lowen and Oswin. I guess if you're going to give her stat boosters for whatever reason, then she can be useful, but then it makes you wonder why we're giving her these boosters to begin with when superior units exist long before her. It's easy to look at her compared to a few paladins and just try to use her, but when you consider we have tons other units that deserve deployment that aren't paladins, it just seems bleak.

She's good for exp padding later on, but why would I bring her to late game if I'm not bringing Oswin or even Lowen to the likes of Cog of Destiny and Victory or Death? 20/20 Isadora averages less than 19 Strength, so she's really not getting any stronger throughout the game at all when defense values go up and enemies do even more damage later on. She gains a decent amount of health but sits at paltry defenses and an Avo that's partially compromised by low Con when you use a Javelin on her. If you're not using a Javelin on her, then there's no reason to use her, because she is inferior frontline to many melee units and having a ranged counter is very useful later on...

I realize my argument looks like Isadora vs. Lowen and Oswin. It's more like, "if we can justify not using Lowen and Oswin later on, we can't justify using Isadora." Kinda the same thing but with an important distinction.

(Shoutout to Horace for mentioning that Isadora is about as useful as Rath... this was something I wanted to argue in the other thread but left it alone.)

Edited August 1, 2015 by Brinzy

[Baldrick]

Is that a fair thing to argue with?

Why wouldn't it be? It's not an unreasonable amount of rigging.

[-Cynthia-]

I can't really see Isadora=Rath, considering Rath is effectively limited to PP offense only which is pretty bad in this game. Isadora's durability is not exactly incredible, but she's generally 3HKOd and has full WTC for avoid purposes.

I feel that dondon's character ratings evaluate Isadora pretty fairly. http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=23766&page=6

[dondon151]

well upon reflection i rated her a bit too highly and i would put rath above her because he does things that no one else can do

If Isadora being immune to screwage when one is not manipulating the RN is an advantage, isn't Lowen's ability to be blessed when one is manipulating the RN also an advantage?

marth is also the best unit in shadow dragon because he will always crit and gain at least +6 stats on every level up

[-Cynthia-]

well upon reflection i rated her a bit too highly and i would put rath above her because he does things that no one else can do

I know Rath can Brave Bow the walls in Genesis, but what else does he do that's relevant? Is it his ferrying capability?

[General Banzai]

Can manipulating RNs just not be taken into account at all like come on guys

[Elieson]

@cyn,

carrying hector so florina can keep pumping exp?

[Baldrick]

@Banzai; to complete a chapter in the minimum amount of turns you'll almost always need the RNG to co-operate

marth is also the best unit in shadow dragon because he will always crit and gain at least +6 stats on every level up

Jeigan can do all that and fly, though.

EDIT: He doesn't need to be Warped because he can fly there at warp speed.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Baldrick

[General Banzai]

@Banzai; to complete a chapter in the minimum amount of turns you'll almost always need the RNG to co-operate

Jeigan can do all that and fly, though.

I was never talking about LTC though, the thread itself is about ranked

[Baldrick]

The context in which I brought up RNG manipulation is LTC.

[-Cynthia-]

@cyn,

carrying hector so florina can keep pumping exp?

That's my guess anyway, can't really imagine it's combat related.

I was never talking about LTC though, the thread itself is about ranked

People don't like discussing ranked play I've noticed.

[dondon151]

Jeigan can do all that and fly, though.

marth doesn't require a second warp staff use

[General Banzai]

That's my guess anyway, can't really imagine it's combat related.

People don't like discussing ranked play I've noticed.

Well Funds and Exp are kinda balls and not fun at all. I like the ranked turn count as a nice metric for going fast without going LTC fast though

[Radiant Dragon]

The comparisons between Isadora and the Cavaliers are cool and all, but she isn't competing with them for any resources (besides exp, I guess) last I checked. Isadora doesn't require a Knight's Crest, so she's not mutually exclusive with the other Paladins. One might say that we don't want so many Paladins on the same team, but Paladins are arguably the best class in the game (can't fly, but have WTC and aren't weak to arrows, so it balances out), so we have quite a bit to gain by having more on our team.

No, Isadora's biggest problem has more to do with the format of the game itself. Because the game throws a lot of individually slow, weak enemies at you, Isadora's advantages (good speed, great 1-range offensive options) are less useful. Still, the Body Ring is not heavily contested (mages and pegasi don't need it as much as you'd think), and she's one of the best users of the Angelic Robe she comes with, both of which combine to significantly enhance her ability to tank enemies with Javelins (the Dracoshield isn't necessarily worth it because its typically better on those who have a bit more defense to start with). Plus we get to take advantage of having an extra Paladin on our team.

It really can't be overstated how much just Isadora being a Paladin makes her better than many units in the game, and makes her worth investing in.

[-Cynthia-]

Well the reason for comparing Isadora to the cavaliers is that it equalizes WTC and movement and that the cavs are generally recognized as good units. An efficient team probably includes a lot of paladins since they're a great class in this game. A comparison like Erk or Guy or whoever against Isadora goes even more in her favor due to the Mov difference.

[Brinzy]

If movement was end all be all, then there would be little reason to use a single caster besides Priscilla. I realize this is not what you meant to imply, but one has to wonder just how useful her movement is when there are several chapters coming up that limit her raw movement, do not require a rush to anywhere, and/or can't have her frontlining anyway.

Part of what makes the foot units have an advantage on Isadora is availability, and then many of them may simply have superior statistics or could be some type of caster, and magic is good at all points of the game. Another part of it is the simple truth that, while having more Movement is definitely not a bad thing, it really isn't a large enough advantage to hold on to when you will have access to many superior 8 Movement units.

It's reasonable to argue that she doesn't cost a Knight's Crest so that makes her good here, but not only do people promote Sain in Lyn's Mode or simply may not use Lowen anyway late game, if we're speaking in terms of Funding, she's still a more expensive unit anyway... so while I can see not counting using two items against her, I absolutely cannot see how needing two items vs. one is fine. Even if we don't factor in Funding, she's still taking two items that, be as lowly contested as they may, are not going to anybody else for the sake of making her long term usable.

Speaking of long term use, does she even do anything significant with investment? Her growths are not good. Her bases sans Speed are not good. Having WTC is slightly compromised by the fact that she's still weighed down by Axes and anything not an Iron Lance. Having said control is not a significant advantage by any means on a unit that is sitting on, say at 20/11, 16 Strength and 21 base Speed (18 w/ Javelin + Body Ring, 17 w/ Hand Axe) vs. typical Nomad Troopers, Valkyries, Wyvern Riders/Lords, Paladins, Generals, or any Sword unit very late in the game. I'm sure she fares well against Axe users with no real chance to hit her and weak casters and archers that are free kills for anyone, but how useful is she against heavy duty units late game? After all, that's why we're giving her boosts to begin with, right? Maybe my memory of late game units is hazy, but I don't see Isadora doing anything significant to most of them.

This is more my problem with Isadora taking boosts. It's not that others can use them... it's that she is still easily replaceable with said boosts. Being a paladin is a good thing, but it is not a significant advantage over other units when other units tend to have strong class advantages and far superior combat stats and utility than Isadora.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Brinzy

[Radiant Dragon]

An efficient team probably includes a lot of paladins since they're a great class in this game. A comparison like Erk or Guy or whoever against Isadora goes even more in her favor due to the Mov difference.

This was my main point, yeah. A fifth-string Paladin (and that's assuming you trained all three Cavaliers) is still better than many of the units in this game. Her non-durability stats are 'good enough' for the most part, although can sometimes struggle against the more dangerous late game enemies like our other units do.

As for ranked play specifically, she's great at helping with tactics, but not so much with exp and funds, which are the more difficult ranks, I believe. Still, most of the premotes are in a similar situation (although she is typically more expensive, even without stat boosters she may need more expensive weaponry).

Edited August 1, 2015 by Radiant Dragon

[Brinzy]

It's not that I am against stacking paladins.

It's just that I see a lot more use with (for example) four paladins and a Valkyrie/Nomad Trooper/Hero/any foot caster/any additional flier/promoted lord come late game... than simply a fifth paladin that is in fact statistically inferior to most units. If she had real Con and/or real Strength, I wouldn't feel like I'm going out of my way just to use her.

And... as for late game units, while a lot of units have poor concrete durability vs. endgame opponents, few are susceptible to both physical and magical enemies and have poor offense against the vast majority of them. I really want to get near the end to see some values for enemies, because I don't recall them, but I can definitely tell you that Isadora isn't going to be 20/20, where she falls slightly below 19 Strength. 20/11 Isadora with a Silver Sword has 29 MT at 1 range, which fails to ORKO the most common types of enemies later on. With a ranged weapon that turns into 22/23 with Javelin/Hand Axe. At 18/17 AS (with Body Ring), she won't double a lot of units, and the ones that she can double tend to be higher defense units. No idea how she fares vs. casters but I imagine it's a lot better than most physical units at range.

There are some other units that can't ORKO most units late game, but all of them offer something in exchange for Movement, like staff use and always having 1-2 range and always hitting Res (every caster, and Luna access if we're talking about Canas), being much bulkier altogether while retaining similar or slightly worse offense (Oswin, Lowen, even Dorcas to name a few), simply superior offense and defense even with ranged (Harken and Geitz HHM), making far better use of experience to ultimately become WAY stronger than her (Rath, HHM Heath. Farina), or even simply making a unit already better than her much stronger for nothing and bringing nearly the same level of offense (lolLouise). With the exception of the casters, note how I talked mostly about potential late game units that are generally seen to be similar or worse than Isadora overall from the time she joins, so it doesn't count for the several units that are decidedly better.

Now, this is not to say Isadora has no form of advantage over these people. Yes, she's a paladin. Yes, she can use all three weapons (although I really don't see why this would ever matter unless you were a class locked out of reliable 1-2 ranged...). Yes, 8 movement is nice. I simply believe that her middling bases at best and the lack of any real growth compromise her weapon levels and class potential to begin with.

The reason I care so much about this is because I'm trying to justify using her in my ranked run, and besides bringing her on Sands of Time, I don't see it happening at all.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Brinzy

[-Cynthia-]

If it's a ranked run, you probably want to cycle units in and out to maximize Exp anyway, not really have a set team other than staffers and Ninian.

[General Banzai]

Isadora is your fourth paladin though, because Lowen is crap

The reality of the situation is you generally give up few resources to add a prepromote to your team compared to a nonpromoted unit. With that being the case, the major measure of a prepromote's quality is what they ADD to your team, since they detract little. Harken and Pent in my opinion are the best non-Marcus units in the game. There is absolutely no drawback to putting them on your team as soon as you get them. They are able to ORKO most anything in the game as soon as they join, post decent or above average defensive stats, and have great access to weaponry (and staves in Pent's case). While cases can be made as to why you might possibly not want to field Kent or Sain (generally based around comparisons between the two of them, as well as their non-Lyn Mode starting levels--and yes, these are not very major drawbacks, but they do exist), I doubt anyone can give me a legitimate reason as to why Pent and Harken should not be used.

Isadora is like, a mini version of that. She takes some minor resource expenditure in the form of one or two stat boosters, and her offensive and defensive capabilities are not as strong as Pent or Harken, but she can ORKO most enemies from join and adds 8 move utility to the team.

I could call into question your assessment of her lategame worth, but I'll actually say that if she falls off lategame, simply stop deploying her. Isadora doesn't require much resource expenditure, so taking her out of the equation for the last 4 or so chapters isn't a big deal. It's not like you funneled thousands of exp into her just to get a slow, weak dumbass like Lowen. Does that fact that she's not worth deploying lategame hurt her? Of course, but she's useful for a large swath of midgame without needing much to do that. We're not playing FE13 Lunatic+ where having a variety of weapon types is actually useful, we're playing a game mode where the key considerations are "How many resources does it take to get them to ORKO stuff" and "What is their Movement stat". Oh hey, Isadora passes both those questions pretty well. So do 3 other Paladins. So use them all.

[Brinzy]

There's so much more to FE7 than simply movement. It's a big point of the game, but it's not end all be all. If it was, Vaida would be good for the time she's around.

And, if you say that she simply should not be deployed late game, then why am I investing in a unit that joins part of the way through mid-game only to be dropped off late game? The fact that she does not pass said question of "How many resources does it take to get them to ORKO stuff" as you put it... is exactly why she's not deployed late, correct? So then if you have the desert, Genesis, and Pale Flower of Darkness as maps where movement is hindered to begin with, would not that make her fail "What is their movement stat"?

So if we're not deploying her on a map where she can't pass on both of those questions, and if we're not using her late game except for like... exp padding in Sands of Time... how can you say that she should be used?

Legitimate maps I can see her being used on, based around your two questions:

Battle Before Dawn

Four-Fanged Offense

Crazed Beast

Unfulfilled Heart

That's about it. Every other map either hinders her movement or is late game where she immediately stops being useful because her offense crashes into a ditch. You can argue that Lowen also should not be used here, but that's one unit.

Furthermore... you talk about how pre-promotes only help because they don't require resources or require just a few. The other side of the coin is that units that do require resources - namely experience - generally come earlier in the game and get that experience very easily. There is almost never a real situation where you're going to have promotion woes in this game. If we can give her two stat boosted items (or 16k if we're doing ranked), how is this a big plus for her when non-promoted units generally only need one item (10k) that doesn't hinder most anyone else because there's enough to go around? The biggest competition is among the cavaliers and Oswin, but since we're not fielding Lowen (nor Oswin IMO) late, that's not a problem either.

Takeaway point here: Isadora being a prepromoted unit and requiring "few" resources is negligible when better units require even less resources and get said resources before she exists.

[Irysa]

You guys are really underselling Lowen. Without Lyn mode, his early availability and bases make him arguably better than Kent for a significant portion if the game.

Kent Cavalier 5 23 8 7 8 4 6 1

Lowen Cavalier 2 23 7 5 7 3 7 0

It is also an absoloute given that Lowen will have gotten a few levels by the time you even get to Caelin, so it's pretty likely he's going to have gotten at least one proc of strength and speed if not more (being better than level 5 is not unrealistic). If we compare averages at some key levels then;

Kent Cavalier 10 27.25 10 9.25 10.25 5 7.25 2.25

Lowen Cavalier 10 30.2 9.4 7.4 9.4 7 10.2 2.4

Note that frankly, it's probably fair to assume Lowen would be an extra level or two ahead of Kent at any given point due to his availability lead, at which point he is equal or better in everything besides Skill, and his AS buffer with Javelins is non negligble. Kent only realistically really pulls ahead of Lowen offensively after like another 10 or so levels, since the 10% or so gap in growths only translates into expected stats after that amount.

Kent Paladin 15/6 37.75 15 15.25 15.75 7 11.75 5.75

Lowen Paladin 15/6 41.2 13.4 11.4 13.4 12 16.2 6.4

Again, assuming Lowen is ahead just 2 levels (or Kent is behind 2) puts the offensive parameter gap down to one point, and Lowen can make up the 1-2 range dmg difference with a Hand Axe vs Kent's Javelin without losing AS (although admittedly Kent has enough speed to cushion the same thing anyway at this point).

On the topic of isadora, she is a pretty good Paladin at anything that demands 1 range weaponry, but she flounders pretty badly with 1-2, and can't be expected to survive substantial enemy phase exposure. In principle, whilst she's easy to use, she just doesn't have that many significant contributions.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Irysa

[Brinzy]

For what it is worth, I think Lowen is fantastic. I'm just going with the notion that he shouldn't be fielded to argue why Isadora would virtually never be fielded over him.