Spoilers indeed: does this game has a more mature take on virginity?

[PenguinPrincess]

I read a topic on GF and I thought it was quite interesting: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/114533-fire-emblem-fates-conquest/72274623

Maybe some of you think this is irrelevant or pathetic, but it got me thinking as to how more characters can be written "differently" as opposed to the same old tropes.

"In FEA most, if not all S-rankable females are virgins, some guys can be argued as virgins as well and most characters who can marry exhibit first love into marriage syndrome.

Does this game change this idealistic notion of first love to marriage at all? I can see how Zero is maturely written and this is definitely a step in a different direction.

But after reading the supports a bit, I'm still feeling that the first love to becoming the one and only love to marriage is still prevalent.

For example Camilla and Hinoka both exhibit this tendency, saying the Avatar (M) is the only one they loved and have loved for a long time etc. But both are the first princesses, so I guess virginity to them is very important, not only that but this is set in medieval times where chastity is quite valuable.

I think I might be thinking too much but with the inclusion of Zero and Shara, I thought characters will exhibit less virgin tendencies and the writing will not always be first love --> marriage type trope."

[gayserbeam]

Most units give little indication of their prior romantic history, with only Kagerou and Saizou having explicitly been in romanitc relationships before, and Zero or Lazward being a little too forward to be a virgin.

A woman's "honour" is a bigger deal in Japanese fiction, as is the idea of soul mates and true, fated love. So these are expected.

Besides, most characters are young, and most don't have a reason to tell whether you're their first love or not.

Edited August 5, 2015 by gayserbeam

[HeartTranquil]

Yea that was on GFs. I think someone presented another POV: Promiscuity = "mature" vs. Traditional values = "immaturely written"

Even if its written idealistically by presenting an overly-romantic view of love, just like in FEA, we see characters like Zero and characters such as Saizo Kagerou having had a relationship before and then coming back. So even if the majority of interactions in this game is first love to marriage, you pointed out Camilla and Hinoka, the writers seem to be experimenting with a tiny few characters to give them that "mature" written POV.

Edited August 5, 2015 by HeartTranquil

[nocturnal YL]

The fact that everyone is inexplicably currently single (no relationship, separated, widowed...) is weird in itself. Even Ribald Tales of the Faith War had pre-destined pairings.

On a slightly off-topic note, I'm surprised how no one talks about a possible interpretation that Zero has sold "everything tangible and intangible, and the most impactful was that time when there was a big guy..." -- you know, that might imply that Zero has once sold his body. (I may get the original text here later.)

[Dollysama]

The fact that everyone is inexplicably currently single (no relationship, separated, widowed...) is weird in itself. Even Ribald Tales of the Faith War had pre-destined pairings.

On a slightly off-topic note, I'm surprised how no one talks about a possible interpretation that Zero has sold "everything tangible and intangible, and the most impactful was that time when there was a big guy..." -- you know, that might imply that Zero has once sold his body. (I may get the original text here later.)

^ Isn't that from his B support with Mamui? Where he says "Anything I had that was of any value, I’d sell. Everything you could think of. The most intense one was probably that one time… who would've thought such a great man would–" ?

[nocturnal YL]

Yes. I'm currently at work; I'll post the original text (and my interpretation) when I get home.

[HeartTranquil]

For example Camilla and Hinoka both exhibit this tendency, saying the Avatar (M) is the only one they loved and have loved for a long time etc. But both are the first princesses, so I guess virginity to them is very important, not only that but this is set in medieval times where chastity is quite valuable.

I think I might be thinking too much but with the inclusion of Zero and Shara, I thought characters will exhibit less virgin tendencies and the writing will not always be first love --> marriage type trope."

Camilla and Hinoka are virgins and first love -> marriage trope because that is their character, and it is to cater to a players who enjoy such setup.

Zero is to cater to players who want a different take on a common JRPG trope.

Saizou and Kagerou's prior relationship, and them either coming back together, or them falling in love with others, is also a welcome addition to the common first love -> marriage setup.

If this game sells very well, look forward to more inclusive setups in the future. I think this is a welcome addition. Hopefully its made more sense the way I explained it.

[NekoKnight]

I doubt IS will include many non-virgins for future titles. "damaged goods" is one of the biggest turn offs for a lot of people who self-insert and obsess over waifus. Even for this game, there are at most implications of past sexual activity and only for a small assortment of characters..

[Thane]

I doubt IS will include many non-virgins for future titles. "damaged goods" is one of the biggest turn offs for a lot of people who self-insert and obsess over waifus. Even for this game, there are at most implications of past sexual activity and only for a small assortment of characters..

Wait, what? Really? People being sexually active before meeting the protagonist is a turn-off? Unless it's a young character, it's like...one of the most natural things in the world.

[HeartTranquil]

I doubt IS will include many non-virgins for future titles. "damaged goods" is one of the biggest turn offs for a lot of people who self-insert and obsess over waifus. Even for this game, there are at most implications of past sexual activity and only for a small assortment of characters..

Indeed, I think there's scope for the game in the future to allow more players to enjoy the game, and especially be more inclusive in terms of what we've just discussed this entire thread.

Certain characters, like Camilla & Hinoka retain the common JRPG maiden trope to allow certain players to enjoy and self-insert, and characters like Saizou x Kagerou, like Zero for the other players to enjoy and self-insert.

More variety is a step in a different, maybe even a better direction.

[NekoKnight]

Wait, what? Really? People being sexually active before meeting the protagonist is a turn-off? Unless it's a young character, it's like...one of the most natural things in the world.

Stop talking like an open-minded and rational person!

I'm surprised you aren't familiar with people who MUST have a virgin for their girlfriend or wife. Even when it comes to fictional characters (or certain celebrities like AKB48 members) people will quickly denounce them as sluts for having a past or present love life. 'Purity' is a big deal (to weirdos)!

[Thane]

Stop talking like an open-minded and rational person!

I'm surprised you aren't familiar with people who MUST have a virgin for their girlfriend or wife. Even when it comes to fictional characters (or certain celebrities like AKB48 members) people will quickly denounce them as sluts for having a past or present love life. 'Purity' is a big deal (to weirdos)!

But...

But why?

[HeartTranquil]

Stop talking like an open-minded and rational person!

I'm surprised you aren't familiar with people who MUST have a virgin for their girlfriend or wife. Even when it comes to fictional characters (or certain celebrities like AKB48 members) people will quickly denounce them as sluts for having a past or present love life. 'Purity' is a big deal (to weirdos)!

I'm going to have to say something here. I think we should not jump to conclusions as to the reasons why a person or a player enjoy or long for someone chaste to be their partner.

I really don't think we should make fun of them in this way at all. Purity may be valued by some, and reciprocated by some, and that's entirely a-ok. I don't think we should immediately single out such individuals and immediately but a label on them - wierdo; otaku; etc.

What I do enjoy is the game creators being a tiny, wheeeny bit, more open and inclusive about certain character traits, and hopefully this will bring in more players to the genre.

[Respite&Nepenthe]

The fact that everyone is inexplicably currently single (no relationship, separated, widowed...) is weird in itself. Even Ribald Tales of the Faith War had pre-destined pairings.

On a slightly off-topic note, I'm surprised how no one talks about a possible interpretation that Zero has sold "everything tangible and intangible, and the most impactful was that time when there was a big guy..." -- you know, that might imply that Zero has once sold his body. (I may get the original text here later.)

Yes, I'm fairly sure it's meant to be implied Zero once sold his body. In several supports, he references "selling everything he could," but if you think about it - growing up in the slums, he would really HAVE much, you know? He also references "doing whatever people told him to" directly after saying he sold whatever he had... I believe what I'm referencing is in his support with Camilla (yeah, I know). Ignoring that...masterpiece for a moment and how they dirty talk each other periodically until he insists on apologizing nude, I think subtle hints about his past are dropped in most of his supports...

I'd read this before, but I'd never thought of it this way. That...actually makes his character a little sadder.

[Water Mage]

Here's food for thought:

In Japan, some fans tried to create a law that forced all female voice actors to be virgins unless they were lesbian, I'm not joking.

Also the AKB48?

There was scandal, because one of it's singers was seeing leaving her home with man, and because of that she was almost kicked off the group( she still got demoted thought), and had to shave her head and do a public apology on tv, apologizing to her fans for not being a virgin anymore, otherwise her singing career was over.

Unbelivable as it may sound, I can give you links, to prove I'm not lying.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Water Mage

[HeartTranquil]

^ Oh I know.

But I think I can confidently say, and others will tend to agree, that there are players who aren't as "acute" or "extreme" in their display of wanting to have a chaste romantic partner, but who do value and can find recriprocation regarding chastity in romance.

Its just not so good to put labels on some of the players who self-insert, as immediately "wierdos" or "otakus" just because they enjoy the setup of some maiden-like or gentleman-like characters. The whole first love into marriage thing prevalent in FEA and in this game as well.

There's nothing wrong, I believe, with players enjoying Camilla's and Hinoka's first love -> marriage with the M Avatar, just like there shouldn't be anything "wrong" with some players enjoying how the writers decided to portray Zero. The relationship between Saizou and Kagerou is also different as well - compared to "tropes".

The next FE may have better balance in terms of romantic relationships and this may welcome more players to the genre.

[NekoKnight]

I'm going to have to say something here. I think we should not jump to conclusions as to the reasons why a person or a player enjoy or long for someone chaste to be their partner.

I really don't think we should make fun of them in this way at all. Purity may be valued by some, and reciprocated by some, and that's entirely a-ok. I don't think we should immediately single out such individuals and immediately but a label on them - wierdo; otaku; etc.

What I do enjoy is the game creators being a tiny, wheeeny bit, more open and inclusive about certain character traits, and hopefully this will bring in more players to the genre.

You must be one of those weirdos... lol jk

While I think the desire for maidenhood (no one really cares about a guy's sexual conduct, it seems) is a little archaic, I will acknowledge that some people can value it without being obsessive. I do think that most characters being virgins/first lovers is a strategic choice to not offend anyone who would take issue with their waifu being "spoiled", however. A lot of people are just really insecure and can't tolerate their lover (even a fictional character) having anything to compare to. Of course, not everyone is like that.

I'd rather waifu-ing not be in the game so characters could have a plethora of past and ongoing relationships but if they have to keep it, it would be nice to keep things diverse. Some people who are young virgins, some who are sexually active and shameless flirts, some who are widows/widowed and some who had a past relationship but can't continue it for reasons.

[B.Leu]

I want to ask something: Do you really expect a Ninja to be virgin ? Just saying.

Coherence got a kick in the balls all for the sake of waifus and husbando, that's lame.

But...

But why?

Poor Thane, he have some purity left in his soul. :p

Still, WTF, Japan is more screwed up than I thought.

Edited August 5, 2015 by B.Leu

[Folt]

Here's food for thought:

In Japan, some fans tried to create a law that forced all female voice actors to be virgins unless they were lesbian, I'm not joking.

Also the AKB48?

There was scandal, because one of it's singers was seeing leaving her home with man, and because of that she was almost kicked off the group( she still got demoted thought), and had to shave her head and do a public apology on tv, apologizing to her fans for not being a virgin anymore, otherwise her singing career was over.

Unbelivable as it may sound, I can give you links, to prove I'm not lying.

I just looked that up and oh my God! Unfortunately, I am not surprised by this.

Regarding the topic, I find it far more likely that most future FEs will have characters be virgins, but have some who are sexually active like in Awakening and Fates.

[nocturnal YL]

Yes. I'm currently at work; I'll post the original text (and my interpretation) when I get home.

Okay, let's go:

[ZERO]

何だ？驚いたのか？

すごいのはまだまだこれからだぞ？

売れるものなら何でも売った。

形あるものも無いものも全て…な。

一番、強烈だったのはアレだな…

まさかあんな大男が…

What? You're surprised?

It gets better.

Things I could sell, I sold them all.

Tangible things, intangible things... everything.

The most impactful* one was THAT...

It has to be when that large man [did something]...

* literally "strong", I think in this context it means strong impression from Zero's perspective

[KAMUI]

すまん！

やっぱり…そこまででいい。

Sorry!

I figured... Just stop there.

I actually thought he was simply saying what other series thief types would have said otherwise (his meeting with Leon was like a darker version of how Asthore met Hector, for example), but the "I sold everything, even intangible stuff" and Kamui's immediate reaction pretty much had me conclude that Zero did indeed go through what I thought he did.

Edited August 5, 2015 by nocturnal YL

[Seta]

I'd like to give another perspective on this topic from the other side of the spectrum. Now, I'm definitely not the perfect example of every "purity lover" that has come to existence, so bear with me here. Obviously, not all people who desire purity in their characters are the same; there are of course the more extremists who overvalue such a thing way too much. But to us more, I guess, "moderate" purity lovers, I think it's just the thought of him/her being your "very first" just adds a sense of loyalty to the character, at least to me. It's just more appealing, I don't even know exactly why myself.

I'd also say that, while I "prefer" my fantasy women to be pure, it's not like I'll immediately hate them or something for their first being taken. It's more that I'll like them less than if they weren't. Still won't stop me from liking a character.

As to whether or not the game should add more characters like Saizou, Kagerou and Zero, I really don't care. If they add more of the less common trope of characters, that's fine by me, there are always other characters or other games that cater to the taste if we really care enough about it. I will admit though that it would make some characters much more interesting.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Seta

[The DanMan]

Here's food for thought:

In Japan, some fans tried to create a law that forced all female voice actors to be virgins unless they were lesbian, I'm not joking.

Also the AKB48?

There was scandal, because one of it's singers was seeing leaving her home with man, and because of that she was almost kicked off the group( she still got demoted thought), and had to shave her head and do a public apology on tv, apologizing to her fans for not being a virgin anymore, otherwise her singing career was over.

Unbelivable as it may sound, I can give you links, to prove I'm not lying.

Good lord.

In some ways, Japan is royally f*cked up.

[Airship Canon]

Been there, saw that topic.

TC is pretty much immature in-and-of himself, so.. not much to say.

[Water Mage]

I just looked that up and oh my God! Unfortunately, I am not surprised by this.

Regarding the topic, I find it far more likely that most future FEs will have characters be virgins, but have some who are sexually active like in Awakening and Fates.

Good lord.

In some ways, Japan is royally f*cked up.

I can give more examples more if you guys are interested and share my morbid curiosity,

And don't think male japanese celebrities are free from this,

Take the Mamoru Miyano incident for example, that thing was NASTY.

And there's the truth behind the idol industry, if you guys ever knew what goes behind the scenes of the idol industry, you would never see idols the same way, EVER AGAIN, seriously if you ever want to continue enjoying idols, don't research the industry behind it, it will crush you, even if you don't like idols.

[Supercredit]

I'd like to give another perspective on this topic from the other side of the spectrum. Now, I'm definitely not the perfect example of every "purity lover" that has come to existence, so bear with me here. Obviously, not all people who desire purity in their characters are the same; there are of course the more extremists who overvalue such a thing way too much. But to us more, I guess, "moderate" purity lovers, I think it's just the thought of him/her being your "very first" just adds a sense of loyalty to the character, at least to me. It's just more appealing, I don't even know exactly why myself.

I'd also say that, while I "prefer" my fantasy women to be pure, it's not like I'll immediately hate them or something for their first being taken. It's more that I'll like them less than if they weren't. Still won't stop me from liking a character.

As to whether or not the game should add more characters like Saizou, Kagerou and Zero, I really don't care. If they add more of the less common trope of characters, that's fine by me, there are always other characters or other games that cater to the taste if we really care enough about it. I will admit though that it would make some characters much more interesting.

"purity" ? Just the fact that you equate the two. I find your opinion disgusting.