Sakurai commenting about "extra features"

[Irysa]

To be entirely fair to Sakurai I think his comment was directed towards the people who think that it took away dev time from something else without knowing how developer process works, and not referring to the people who oppose it on grounds of principle

I mean I entirely sympathize with not liking the facerub thing on principle anyway even if I've made my peace, but people saying shit like "oh those fancy models took precious dev time away!" really don't understand how game dev works

I don't think that was his intent. He is specifically talking about these new features being separate, ignorable, and completely irrelevant to a core experience of the game in his analogies. They're not, they're connected to the game as a whole. Games are not just a collection of individual systems, they're a complete product and aspects of complete products change the tone and focus of the whole work. The entire argument can be reduced to something as ridiculous as the notion that you can ignore poorly written chapters within a book that add nothing to the plot, since one can simply avoid them, even if the content of those chapters severely undermines character development or introduces plot inconsistencies. All Sakurai (and others who use the "it's optional" argument) seems to care about is if you can get to the end of the game or not, instead of considering the possibility of games achieving the status of Gesamtkunstwerk by being comprehensive and cohesive.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Irysa

[Water Mage]

I don't think that was his intent. He is specifically talking about these new features being separate, ignorable, and completely irrelevant to a core experience of the game in his analogies. They're not, they're connected to the game as a whole. Games are not just a collection of individual systems, they're a complete product and aspects of complete products change the tone and focus of the whole work.

Actually, I think that his intent, considering Sakurai likes to add features that are separate and ignorable in his own games, so it would a major act of hypocrisy from Sakurai to complain about feature that are ignorable.

[Thor Odinson]

@ Simple Hoshido maps

Wasn't that Hoshido route's intentions, gameplaywise, anyway? To be simpler and more welcoming towards new players while Nohr, from a gameplay perspective, is marketed towards veterans? Since many of us here are veterans, Hoshido's map designs could come off as too simple to us, but they are likely purposefully done that way to make it easier on new players, while veterans who still want a challenge playing Hoshido still have higher difficulty options in playing Lunatic.

I don't know how much enemy positioning changed between N/H/L, though. If anything FE12 Lunatic taught me, artful positioning of enemies can really make a difference, even if the map is not necessarily complex.

I'm pretty sure I remember that from the marketing days, and if so, I'm pretty sure the simpler maps of Hoshido is entirely on purpose.

@Thor, is it common for one programmer to not understand what the other programmer is doing even given source code if the two aren't working on something that's similar enough or does it depend on the person?

Pretty common, yeah. We actually really hate reading each other's code.

It's not as bad if it's well commented and documented, because you do want it to still be readable and maintainable by other programmers in case you leave the team or the company. But in general, we really hate reading other people's code. If the person who wrote the piece of code is still around on this project, they're dealing with their own code. Especially considering once you get to more complex programming there's many different ways to approach a problem that might all lead to roughly the same result (by roughly I mean some ways are gonna be faster than others) and sometimes, especially if it's superoptimized, it can be very hard to decipher just what exactly is going on, especially with no detailed commenting. Always comment your code, guys.

The most I've done with my coworker's code so far at work was just reference a small piece of it to uniformize the way we do a certain thing over related products. And took out a couple of console printout messages. Anything significant and impactful to the actual product itself, I do not touch outside of my own code.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[The DanMan]

Sakurai himself shows his inability to understand this in Sm4sh. There's a different between Target Blast, which is a complete mini game I can compete with others in, and making a bunch of clone fighters who should exist as costumes and throwing them all in the corner of the select screen. One of those things is a bonus feature, the other is completely superfluous and looks shoddy.

The three (when is "a bunch" three?) clones were made at the last minute, and didn't really take away from development time. And the superfluousness and shoddiness of it is 100% subjective. But this isn't an argument about clones; I agree with the first part of your post.

I severely doubt that they would have focused on map design more if they decided that face rubbing wouldn't be a thing (especially since the models don't seem to differentiate too much and they seem to have a base). They probably would have went into a different extra feature that would appeal to the same fans that would like rubbing faces, because that's what they were trying to do in the first place. If they decided to remove face rubbing, they wouldn't just jump off of the idea of adding extra features. That time would just be thrown into a different extra feature they'd create.

Everything is done with a purpose. The amount of time they put into face rubbing is meant to be time spent on extra features that will appeal to a wider fanbase than the standard player. They went the right direction considering how well Awakening did.

Touma is pretty bad though. Most of the maps were either really tedious, obnoxious, gimmicky, or very unrewarding.

I didn't say that; my two comments were separate. I was just saying that in general, the time and resources put towards side content could have been used to enhance the main experience.

And the reason Awakening sold well has little to do with blatant fanservice: it was the fact that Nintendo actually advertised it, coupled with casual mode removing a (seemingly psychological) barrier that kept people from getting into it.

Confident is one thing, but are you comfortable with potentially getting a game that has such a feature blocked off? Even if you don't like the mechanic, do you think it would be fair to be expected to pay for a game that's missing a heavily advertised feature?

Comfortable that a piece of blatant fanservice that nobody asked for could quite possibly get axed? Yep. (The "advertised" part was already addressed by some one else.)

[Irysa]

Actually, I think that his intent, considering Sakurai likes to add features that are separate and ignorable in his own games, so it would a major act of hypocrisy from Sakurai to complain about feature that are ignorable.

Sakurai was defending those features saying they ARE ignorable though, that's the point. I'm arguing these features are not.

If you're one of the people that doesn't like the feature, it's 100% an optional feature. Disliking a game because of two completely optional features (any feature outside of the hot springs/amie is very arguable) is simply silly, regardless of how "dehumanizing" it is. If you think it's dehumanizing, don't use it. A lot of people aren't using it because they simply dislike it, let alone other reasons to add onto that. From someone that has played through parts of 2 of the paths and what I've read of other paths, you're completely fine not using the feature.

Sakurai is 100% right that optional features are just that: optional. Just like tournament mode, for glory, classic, smash tour, etc in smash bros. If you look at one optional feature (or small things like big breasted characters with sex appeal) and try to make it out to be more than just developers trying to appeal to a strong specific fan base that played through Awakening, then you're going to enjoy the game less regardless. IS made the right decision based on how many people played Awakening.

Also, implying that you don't get to enjoy characters for their personalities and actions as individual beings with agency because of optional features is simply your fault, not the game's. If you're letting a feature that you literally can remove from your castle completely and make it not exist on your game ruin the actual story for you, then that's not the game's fault. That's simply you having a mental block. Face rubbing has no impact on the story at all. Characters don't develop through my castle. They develop through building supports and the story outside of the castle. >_>

It exists, therefore it undermines it. I edited in an analogy earlier, but I will post it again since this came before;

The entire argument can be reduced to something as ridiculous as the notion that you can ignore poorly written chapters within a book that add nothing to the plot, since one can simply avoid them, even if the content of those chapters severely undermines character development or introduces plot inconsistencies.

[Jedi]

I don't think that was his intent. He is specifically talking about these new features being separate, ignorable, and completely irrelevant to a core experience of the game in his analogies. They're not, they're connected to the game as a whole. Games are not just a collection of individual systems, they're a complete product and aspects of complete products change the tone and focus of the whole work. The entire argument can be reduced to something as ridiculous as the notion that you can ignore poorly written chapters within a book that add nothing to the plot, since one can simply avoid them, even if the content of those chapters severely undermines character development or introduces plot inconsistencies. All Sakurai (and others who use the "it's optional" argument) seems to care about is if you can get to the end of the game or not, instead of considering the possibility of games achieving the status of Gesamtkunstwerk by being comprehensive and cohesive.

Considering Sakurai himself adds alot of extra modes that many of us Smash players find pointless, I don't find any logic in your argument considering the features being talked about here are avoidable if you so wish.

Are you saying Sakurai's other games such as Kid Icarus Uprising having multiplayer that only about 1/3rd of the players play, should be a reason to stay away from Kid Icarus Uprising? If you don't find the optional multiplayer to your liking?

[Water Mage]

Sakurai was defending those features saying they ARE ignorable though, that's the point. I'm arguing these features are not.

It exists, therefore it undermines it. I edited in an analogy earlier, but I will post it again since this came before;

The entire argument can be reduced to something as ridiculous as the notion that you can ignore poorly written chapters within a book that add nothing to the plot, since one can simply avoid them, even if the content of those chapters severely undermines character development or introduces plot inconsistencies.

The face rubbing is ignorable, you don't lose anything by not using it.

Also remember that a book and game are different things, and these days people want waste a little time as they can on various things, sad as it may be, this is especially true in Japan, there's a readon why grinding DLC exist.

So in order to cater that they have to make things optional, otherwise many people won't want fo waste time on it.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Water Mage

[KP Joey]

I don't think that was his intent. He is specifically talking about these new features being separate, ignorable, and completely irrelevant to a core experience of the game in his analogies. They're not, they're connected to the game as a whole. Games are not just a collection of individual systems, they're a complete product and aspects of complete products change the tone and focus of the whole work. The entire argument can be reduced to something as ridiculous as the notion that you can ignore poorly written chapters within a book that add nothing to the plot, since one can simply avoid them, even if the content of those chapters severely undermines character development or introduces plot inconsistencies. All Sakurai (and others who use the "it's optional" argument) seems to care about is if you can get to the end of the game or not.

Removing face rubbing from the castle will change absolutely nothing about your game experience. It's literally Kamui rubbing the person's face and them spewing a few lines that are specifically in face rubbing and don't add anything to the story at all. It's about as important to the story as the hot springs quotes.

Comparing an optional feature to a book chapter is simply bad. You can choose to skip a chapter technically, but in 90+% of books you're missing out on important information. The point of an optional feature is that you're missing nothing (in the story or the game) if you choose to not do it, and things like the hot springs and face rubbing live up to that standard. I think I've read maybe 1 face rubbing quote that COULD be considered important to the story? I've only read a few that were posted on FE Reddit, but out of maybe 10+, I've only read one line that was kind of important or that could even be considered a spoiler for the story at all. One line. >__>

You can argue that an optional feature will alter the game's whole experience all you want (even though it won't... at all), but the reality is that you're only ruining the game for yourself. People that don't like face rubbing will get the experience of the game outside of face rubbing assuming they give the game a play through, and they will enjoy the game just as much as they would if it didn't exist. It's a simple concept of not partaking in optional features you don't enjoy. They don't change the story. They don't alter the amount of character development. The optional features are only there for people that will enjoy said features. That's it. If you make it more than that, that's simply on you lol.

[Irysa]

Considering Sakurai himself adds alot of extra modes that many of us Smash players find pointless, I don't find any logic in your argument considering the features being talked about here are avoidable if you so wish.

Are you saying Sakurai's other games such as Kid Icarus Uprising having multiplayer that only about 1/3rd of the players play, should be a reason to stay away from Kid Icarus Uprising? If you don't find the optional multiplayer to your liking?

I really must have messed that post up if so many people are consistently misunderstanding it.

The point is that features such as facerubbing have negative impacts on the characterisation and tone of the game's overall narrative and presentation simply by existing. They are not isolated minigames that have no connection to the game as a whole, they are connected to other facets of the game as a whole.

The face rubbing is ignorable, you don't lose anything by not using it.

Also remember that a book and game are different things, and these days people want waste a little time as they can on various things, sad as it may be, this is especially true in Japan, there's a readon why grinding DLC exist.

So in order to cater that they have to make things optional, otherwise many people won't want fo waste time on it.

Removing face rubbing from the castle will change absolutely nothing about your game experience. It's literally Kamui rubbing the person's face and them spewing a few lines that are specifically in face rubbing and don't add anything to the story at all. It's about as important to the story as the hot springs quotes.

You can argue that an optional feature will alter the game's whole experience all you want (even though it won't... at all), but the reality is that you're only ruining the game for yourself. People that don't like face rubbing will get the experience of the game outside of face rubbing assuming they give the game a play through, and they will enjoy the game just as much as they would if it didn't exist. It's a simple concept of not partaking in optional features you don't enjoy. They don't change the story. They don't alter the amount of character development. The optional features are only there for people that will enjoy said features. That's it. If you make it more than that, that's simply on you lol..

I repeat, it exists, and we are aware of it, and it is connected to other aspects of the game. Not using it doesn't make this information magically go away. My overall impression and thoughts about a game must factor in things that are relevant, so if these features were irrelevant to me, then you would have a point, but they are very much relevant.

Comparing an optional feature to a book chapter is simply bad. You can choose to skip a chapter technically, but in 90+% of books you're missing out on important information. The point of an optional feature is that you're missing nothing (in the story or the game) if you choose to not do it, and things like the hot springs and face rubbing live up to that standard. I think I've read maybe 1 face rubbing quote that COULD be considered important to the story? I've only read a few that were posted on FE Reddit, but out of maybe 10+, I've only read one line that was kind of important or that could even be considered a spoiler for the story at all. One line. >__>

Actually I can quite easily say you can skip significant portions of many books, including even books we'd probably agree are good/important, such as LOTR. Those particular segments don't have the same negative connotations mind, but you definitely do not need to read every single chapter of a book to get a fufilling experience. You are wildly misunderstanding what I'm trying to say; it's not that the dialogue or w/e within the minigame is important and I have to miss it, it's that it's mere existance illustrates how the characters are just playthings for the omnipresent, godlike player, and only exist for the player's sake instead of their own sake.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Irysa

[Water Mage]

I really must have messed that post up if so many people are consistently misunderstanding it.

The point is that features such as facerubbing have negative impacts on the characterisation and tone of the game's overall narrative and presentation simply by existing. They are not isolated minigames that have no connection to the game as a whole, they are connected to other facets of the game as a whole.

It really doesn't impact the game's narrative in way, not even by existing since the game doesn't shove the facerubbing on you, you have to go out of your way to do it, and I don't think the game even tells you about it beforehand.

[astrophys]

I think a lot of us aren't expecting some grand epic with intricately thought out characters and plots.

We just want something that's fun to play as an SRPG.

If the characters and story and tone is good, that's great. But if they're mediocre or subpar, that's not a huge deal as its not really the main reason we're playing in the first place.

Basically, there seems to be a disconnect between our expectations. You, of course, are entitled to your expectations and I can understand why you feel that it is detrimental to the characters. By I really care about the battles, strategy, weapons, optimized pairings as a mathematical exercise (I like math), etc. But characters? I never had major expectations for them. So naturally I (and others like me) will have a far more muted reaction to things like facerubbing/Amie than you do.

I do think its awkward and strange. I might try it out just for a laugh in its utter ridiculousness or here some of the lines people have been complaining about for myself, but its not something that I'm particularly excited about.

And its not a major impediment to gameplay. Sure, it can be used to accelerate supports with Kamui, but I'd imagine you'd get more than enough supports naturally with all of your other characters to make whether or not you gain a few support points in Kamui x other supports fairly unimportant in the scheme of things.

So I really don't care that much about it. I see little reason that would convince me to want it to get axed. I'll let the people who enjoy it have there fun, I can largely ignore it, and if one day I ever change my mind or just want a laugh at the expense of how stupid it is it will still be available for me anyways.

[Irysa]

It really doesn't impact the game's narrative in way, not even by existing since the game doesn't shove the facerubbing on you, you have to go out of your way to do it, and I don't think the game even tells you about it beforehand.

The game's features and use of it's characters bespeak volumes about it's narrative and the meta-physical implications of that narrative and presentation. If just about every character can be done with as the player pleases, what does that say about each character's own agency and motivations within the game? If they all consistently worship the player character and will act on their beck and call to the point of allowing PC to grope them, how is this NOT a statement about how they, as characters, lack any pretense of individual will?

I think a lot of us aren't expecting some grand epic with intricately thought out characters and plots.

Not asking for that either. I'm just asking for characters who exist for themselves instead of the player, or at least give off the strong impression that that is the case. I want to be able to recognise characters as people within a fictional world who are caught up in events, and evaulate my opinions of them as people, rather than viewing them as mere inanimate things solely made to please me as a person. The way these games have been going since FE12 has been consistently making the latter more apparent. It is not much to ask for a game to have characters that are people before playthings.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Irysa

[astrophys]

I can understand your point about the lack of any pretense of individual will, although I get the feeling that many would say "you're over thinking this". Fire Emblem is not meant to be some sort of high art. Its largely meant to be a strategy RPG with some basic entertainment on the side. If something happens to be particularly artistic about it, good for it.

Of course, I will admit that past FE games had a more complex set of characters (such as Genealogy, which I'm currently playing) but even then I wouldn't call it any sort of high art either.

EDIT: I see that you edited your post to address some of my earlier points. Yes, I get the idea of having them stand as characters on their own right. I admit that I'm not concerned with them so much as characters (with a few exceptions, generally for some of the more important or interesting ones) but as units. Character and plot is only of secondary importance in an strategy game, in my opinion at least.

Edited August 7, 2015 by astrophys

[Water Mage]

The game's features and use of it's characters bespeak volumes about it's narrative and the meta-physical implications of that narrative and presentation. If just about every character can be done with as the player pleases, what does that say about each character's own agency and motivations within the game? If they all consistently worship the player character and will act on their beck and call to the point of allowing PC to grope them, how is this NOT a statement about how they, as characters, lack any pretense of individual will?

The same could be said about games like Xenoblade and the Tales of series.

In both of these games you can send characters into battle on bikins, beach shorts and other silly costumes, what does it say about them? Does having the ability to go in battle in silly costumes affect how you view characters from these games? Does it makes you question their standards?

[Irysa]

I think that very much depends on the context of those situations, and since I haven't played Xenoblade so I can't really comment on that one. In the Tales games I have played, yes it's dumb and detracts, but there isn't the same omnipresent "player character" to which characters routinely genuflect to, so it doesn't come off in the same way.

EDIT: I see that you edited your post to address some of my earlier points. Yes, I get the idea of having them stand as characters on their own right. I admit that I'm not concerned with them so much as characters (with a few exceptions, generally for some of the more important or interesting ones) but as units. Character and plot is only of secondary importance in an strategy game, in my opinion at least.

Honestly, I didn't think I did either until I played FE12 and got absoloutely livid at what the Hero Worship in that game did to the tone of the game and characters within it as a whole. I don't think my bar is as high as I may have given the impression of, but there is a bar there nonetheless. The feature as a whole is part of a larger trend within the game (mostly to do with the Avatar), so just removing it wouldn't fix the problem anyway, it's a much broader issue, but it's certainly an easy thing to point to and criticise.

I digress, the point remains; such features have impact on other parts of the game, and are not isolated. Whether you care about those parts of the game is obviously subjective, but the opening article seeks to hand wave legitimate concerns about such features to be irrelevant due to their lack of relevance in completing the game.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Irysa

[NeonZ]

I really must have messed that post up if so many people are consistently misunderstanding it.

The point is that features such as facerubbing have negative impacts on the characterisation and tone of the game's overall narrative and presentation simply by existing. They are not isolated minigames that have no connection to the game as a whole, they are connected to other facets of the game as a whole.

People get what you mean, they just disagree with it.

What is the direct consequence of implementing th face rubbing for the other facets of the game, even if you choose to not use it? It means that all characters must be somewhat friendly with the avatar, otherwise they wouldn't interact so closely with it? That's not really a consequence of face rubbing, but of the avatar's ability to support everyone.

If they all consistently worship the player character and will act on their beck and call to the point of allowing PC to grope them, how is this NOT a statement about how they, as characters, lack any pretense of individual will?

Because those interactions have little weight outside of themselves? The characters can be available for face rubbing and yet that has no effect on supports or the main story. For example, Ashura seems to have a pretty negative opinion of the avatar before his A support, and in the male's case things never seem to get that clean, and yet he still is an option for skinship, just like any other unit.

In fact, Fates is filled with stuff like that. The children aren't acknowledged in the main story, the My Castle itself is placed in another dimension since the player has access to it doesn't matter where the party is in the main narrative, aside from a few special chapters. Although the skinship itself was certainly an odd addition that I'd never ask for, the only way to keep atmosphere and story focus in a videogame, without allowing deviations that break things is to restrict the player's freedom and options. I guess there's worth to that if you place the atmosphere and story above everything else, and don't want to see it broken. However, even receiving more freedom and options, you can still avoid or minimize many of the elements that can hurt the atmosphere of your personal experience.

You compare those elements to skipping book chapters, but I'd say they're closer to DVD extras.

Edit: Now, if your issue is with the general avatar focus, that's another matter, but you seem to be inverting the elements here. Skinship was added as another way to expand the features centered on the avatar, not the other way around.

Edited August 7, 2015 by NeonZ

[Irysa]

People get what you mean, they just disagree with it.

Actually most of them didn't understand the point and thought I was criticising Sakurai for things I didn't criticise him for. The criticism was "he is stating that these aspects are ignorable and entirely seperate" and I made a counterclaim that they are not entirely separate and are intrinsically linked to other aspects of the game, so if one cares about those other aspects but not the former ones, their concerns are absoloutely legitimate.

Most people thought I was saying Sakurai was a hypocrite or something.

What is the direct consequence of implementing th face rubbing for the other facets of the game, even if you choose to not use it? It means that all characters must be somewhat friendly with the avatar, otherwise they wouldn't interact so closely with it? That's not really a consequence of face rubbing, but of the avatar's ability to support everyone.

Sure, which is why I said in the previous post it's part of a larger problem to do with the Avatar.

Because those interactions have little weight outside of themselves? The characters can be available for face rubbing and yet that has no effect on supports or the main story. For example, Ashura seems to have a pretty negative opinion of the avatar before his A support, and in the male's case things never seem to get that clean, and yet he still is an option for skinship, just like any other unit.

In fact, Fates is filled with stuff like that. The children aren't acknowledged in the main story, the My Castle itself is placed in another dimension since the player has access to it doesn't matter where the party is in the main narrative, aside from a few special chapters. Although the skinship itself was certainly an odd addition that I'd never ask for, the only way to keep atmosphere and story focus in a videogame, without allowing deviations that break things is to restrict the player's freedom and options. I guess there's a worth to that if you place the atmosphere and story above everything else, and don't want to see it broken. However, even receiving more freedom and options, you can still avoid or minimize many of the elements that can hurt the atmosphere of your personal experience.

You compare those elements to skipping book chapters, but I'd say they're closer to DVD extras.

How do they have no weight outside of themselves? It speaks to the nature of the game as a whole and what the intents are behind the characters within the narrative. If even characters that dislike the player are open to be groped against their will, then why can't they just say no? It just reduces their ability to be presented as individuals with their own concerns and motivations and undermines EVERYTHING they do. Even a scenario where they're simply forced to submit would add more to them than what we have now.

I dislike the entire My Castle aspect for the very reasons you've outlined, but it's harder to get up in arms about it since that's more to do with plot contrivances than neccessarily characters primarily being things to ogle at and enjoy.

I disagree with comparing to Extras, as these are features that have clearly had a significant amount of time and effort put into them for a specific purpose.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Irysa

[Water Mage]

I think that very much depends on the context of those situations, and since I haven't played Xenoblade so I can't really comment on that one. In the Tales games I have played, yes it's dumb and detracts, but there isn't the same omnipresent "player character" to which characters routinely genuflect to, so it doesn't come off in the same way.

It's seems to me that what is making you angry is the fact that the avatar is doing this to them, rather than the fact this can happen in the first place, and while I do agree that the characters sometimes focus to much on the Avatar, what's the point of having a player avatar if you cannot interact with the characters or affect everything in the game. The developers aren't dumb, they know if the player avatar didn't affect everythingin the game a lot people would complain.

Why do you think games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age are popular? In these games, the universe is pretty much at the whim of the player avatar.

[Integrity]

I repeat, it exists, and we are aware of it, and it is connected to other aspects of the game. Not using it doesn't make this information magically go away. My overall impression and thoughts about a game must factor in things that are relevant, so if these features were irrelevant to me, then you would have a point, but they are very much relevant.

i think you have a point but you're kind of not doing a great job making a point rather than just wordsing at people? you need to work on making your posts accessible, bro.

anyway if i may i want to illustrate this point with an example:

sengoku rance is literally a porn game. the underlying game mechanics are honestly very good and the execution is honestly really fun. you can play the game and super-fast-forward all the porn scenes, but that doesn't change the fact that the whole game is kind of dragged down by the fact that they exist. even once you play the after-game totally storyless conquer-the-world mode, which is very good, you're still playing sengoku rance, with all the stigmata attached. it's like saying you only read playboy for the articles: even if it's true, nobody will believe that you're playing a porn game for the gameplay because the porn part sucks.

fartes can be a great game, and it can be a great game where you don't ever have to go jack off your units in your private bedchambers, but the fact that you can go jack off your units in your private bedchambers is still a thing in the game. i'll probably never use it except when i'm drunk and bored, but the fact of the matter is this game does come with the ability to go rub your units, sans titties, which is probably its most dire flaw gosh, and while that doesn't make it literally a porn game, it's still something that's attached to the phrase "yeah i liked fire emblem fartes"

i guess more succinctly an optional feature can both not have an impact on your enjoyment of the game and have an impact on your impression of the game, and these two things are not mutually exclusive.

christ irysa come tell me i misrepresented you because i don't think i've ever agreed with you :(

EDIT: fuck me i just made an effort post about fire emblem for the first time in years

EDIT2: wait no it's just an effort post about video games i'm ok

wait fuck it's an effort post about video games

Edited August 7, 2015 by Integrity

[NeonZ]

How do they have no weight outside of themselves? It speaks to the nature of the game as a whole and what the intents are behind the characters within the narrative. If even characters that dislike the player are open to be groped against their will, then why can't they just say no?

You might as well ask why they can't say no to a suicidal order and refuse to move to certain points of the map. They're there because the gameplay mechanic works like that. The same reason that it needs to be "recharged" before use.

I disagree with comparing to Extras, as these are features that have clearly had a significant amount of time and effort put into them for a specific purpose.

There's content that's produced just to be disc extras though, so I don't see how that makes any difference. It's still optional content that's there, but is separate and has no direct influence in the main story/narrative.

Edited August 7, 2015 by NeonZ

[mimasho]

Topics like these are really upsetting. It's impossible to cater to EVERYONE's needs and wants.

No matter what things old or new are implemented in the FE series, there's always going to be a number of people

complaining and a number of people who enjoy it.

My Castle is stressed to be very very very optional. You don't even have to have a "My room", there is an option to literally remove

EVERY building in your My Castle. If you don't like it, then go ahead and do that !

Yes, "amie-ing" with people allow your units to bond faster than you...

but it's not a huge advantage that cannot be obtained through other methods ??

I hardly use that function to gain supports with my units, and it's still pretty straightforward to get everyone A rank with Kamui.

Besides, you don't even have to A rank Kamui with everyone. It's more important to get the other units S ranked to each other,

which cannot be achieved through "my room".

Awakening got a ton of success for being different from the other series (with children and whatnot), so they wanted to implement

those same things into FE:if, because that was what made it successful and saved the series. It was what the newer audience wanted.

However, no one wants a FE:A clone, so they tried their best to be original. (no going through time for the children, but same basic theme)

Was it a complete failure ? Maybe to a lot of people ! But they tried, and it's not always easy to get it right.

And if honestly you think the lines in FE:if are too provocative or suggestive or it makes you uncomfortable,

(which really, isn't that bad for the most part. I mean, we're all adults // teens here, right ???)

don't use it ! No one's forcing you to -and honestly, different culture do different things.

These types of lines and stuff are very very common in Japanese games.

If you really can't handle it, don't even bother playing the game.

If you're a huge fan of the series or want to play it anyways, then look past the extra features and suck it up. (人 •͈ᴗ•͈)

but seriously, I joined this site to have fun discussions about FE:if.

Why are half the posts bashing // complaining about the game ? aaand i'm gone.

[SilverPants]

Sakurai's been playing IF/Fates? Kamui and Aqua confirmed for Smash 5

[Integrity]

(which really, isn't that bad for the most part. I mean, we're all adults // teens here, right ???)

don't use it ! No one's forcing you to -and honestly, different culture do different things.

These types of lines and stuff are very very common in Japanese games.

first part: yeah, no, i've read the lines and a bunch of them are straight-up voiced avatar molestation man, it's kind of fucked up. and for context, i'm an adult with healthy attitudes towards sex and sexuality, tyvm.

second part: being common in japan doesn't make them acceptable to a western audience due to differences in culture, yo.

[Thane]

you don't ever have to go jack off your units in your private bedchambers,

Wait, you're telling me we had an option not to?

[Irysa]

It's seems to me that what is making you angry is the fact that the avatar is doing this to them, rather than the fact this can happen in the first place, and while I do agree that the characters sometimes focus to much on the Avatar, what's the point of having a player avatar if you cannot interact with the characters or affect everything in the game. The developers aren't dumb, they know if the player avatar didn't affect everythingin the game a lot people would complain.

Why do you think games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age are popular? In these games, the universe is pretty much at the whim of the player avatar.

Well it's larger than that, as it has to do with the fact that the developers enable it through the Avatar in the first place. Interactions are fine, but undermining other character's agency is not a neccessary outcome in interactions. The two games you've listed at least let you fail to convince people (so there's a semblance of it), although I'm hardly a fan of them on the whole either because it's still a predominant fact.

If I were to flip this around, consider Planescape Torment, where the protagonist has agency and can interact with other characters, and can use various methods of trying to convince people in helping him, but not everyone will help The Nameless One, and most won't without a reason. Even a party member who is literally a slave to the protagonist (the tl;dr is protaognist saved his life and party member swore to serve him until he dies...but the protagonist is immortal and can't die) expresses his own views on that situation and clearly has conflicting emotions regarding it. TNO is a character within a world and must act in accordance to that world's rules, rather than just being able to consistently subvert them because of being the protagonist. If the universe is at the whim of the self insert, then it's just power fantasy tripe that has little value other than inflating the ego of the audience. Or as BrightBow would put it, giving them a narrative blowjob.

christ irysa come tell me i misrepresented you because i don't think i've ever agreed with you :(

I think that's kind of a misrepresentation because I really don't care what other people think of me for playing a videogame. I mean in my case, the design of the game when it comes to the narrative elements will significantly reduce my enjoyment of it, that's a primary concern. Though the point you raise is entirely lucid too. You may ask how can I be sure, but the degree of which it was taken in FE12 and 13 already bothered me a lot, and this goes even further. I'm not interested in playing it for any reason other than to confirm suspicions, which is not worth the money it will cost as it stands.

You might as well ask why they can't say no to a suicidal order and refuse to move to certain points of the map. They're there because the gameplay mechanic works like that. The same reason that it needs to be "recharged" before use.

Not comparable whatsoever. For one, there's no way to neccessarily correlate that the character did not choose to move into a bad position, instead of the PC insert telling them to move there, wheras with the groping, they're requested, in game, and act on that request.

There's content that's produced just to be disc extras though, so I don't see how that makes any difference. It's still optional content that's there, but is separate and has no influence in the main story/narrative.

Sure, but if that content itself was detrimental to the work as a whole, I would say that's bad and it shouldn't exist. But it does at least exist outside the main work of the film or series rather than existing within it, so it's of less concern.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Irysa