Snowy_One Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 The amount of stuff Snowy claims LTCers do that they don't is rather astounding. At least around these parts. Then again, did Snowy just have an epiphany? What may come of this? *sigh* I don't know. I mean... What can I say? My bigger issue has never been LTC's but, rather... well... douchebags. People who go online and mock others for not being perfect despite their double standards and/or elitist attitudes. You also can't really say that there ISN'T a degree of it since tier lists focus heavily on turn-counts... But that... Well... Just because I hate people like that who are toxic to other players doesn't mean I am free to be toxic back; even if I didn't realize it. I may not consider LTC a valid method of skill but that doesn't mean I should be going around and insulting, degrading, and frankly being outright hypocritical to LTCers; especially since many of them... well... Don't care about which units are actually better. They just want to have fun with a self-imposed challenge. I still maintain that the FE games should find ways to hamper LTC plays but that is more because the current game mechanics currently reward that style of play too much as opposed to hatred of the people who utilize the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Uhh. . .play the game how you want? At the end of the day, it's a video game. If someone wants to be a LTCer, let 'em. They're not going to win a Nobel Prize for doing so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted August 22, 2015 Author Share Posted August 22, 2015 Apparently the best way to screw up an LTCer's plans is to have Snowy make posts in this thread, cause they all feel so inclined to keep replying to him that they're not going to get anything else done. : ') Not true I just 7-turned chapter 11 of FE7 RR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Not true I just 7-turned chapter 11 of FE7 RR. You could have 6-turned it if you hadn't been responding to me. Anyways. Sorry for being such a douche about all of this. I don't think I'll ever really accept LTC as a measurement of skill/unit quality, but I'm going to at least try to avoid getting into fights over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted August 22, 2015 Author Share Posted August 22, 2015 You could have 6-turned it if you hadn't been responding to me. Only possible by rigging a 10% crit on Wire with Athos, which I'm not able/willing to do. I would've reached the boss a turn sooner if I could break the wall quicker! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Only possible by rigging a 10% crit on Wire with Athos, which I'm not able/willing to do. I would've reached the boss a turn sooner if I could break the wall quicker! You also failed the 95% hit rate on the joke attack. -_- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted August 22, 2015 Author Share Posted August 22, 2015 You also failed the 95% hit rate on the joke attack. -_- Nah, deadpan off capped skill never whiffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinjaMonkey Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Apparently the best way to screw up an LTCer's plans is to have Snowy make posts in this thread, cause they all feel so inclined to keep replying to him that they're not going to get anything else done. : ') I asked why we needed to screw over LTC players, not how. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topazd Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 I asked why we needed to screw over LTC players, not how. Reading the OP might prove useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 I asked why we needed to screw over LTC players, not how.Have you considered that Mekkah was maybe...not talking to you, but instead just answering the topic's question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrouded In Myth Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Reading the OP might prove useful. I asked the same question in the first page and no one answered it. The OP just states that other turn-based games aren't good to LTC, and offered some suggestions as to prevent LTC from those other games. The suggestions seem like it will make the game worse along with many other suggestions in the thread. Honestly, I'm kinda thinking that promoting LTC is a good thing, because it seems like good strategy mechanics promote LTC. The actual problem is when a game is so unbalanced that LTC just consist of using the same overpowering tactics over and over again. And really it makes sense. if a player knows they can accomplish their objectives in less turns they would want to do that. This means they will try to do the most they can in each turn. A strategy game with a higher actions to turns ratio is a lot more interesting than one with a low ratio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted August 23, 2015 Author Share Posted August 23, 2015 It was just a thought experiment of sorts, but also a "what if" question inspired by the recentest games exhibiting some of the LTC-stifling tendencies that I tried to develop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 I asked the same question in the first page and no one answered it. The OP just states that other turn-based games aren't good to LTC, and offered some suggestions as to prevent LTC from those other games. The suggestions seem like it will make the game worse along with many other suggestions in the thread. Honestly, I'm kinda thinking that promoting LTC is a good thing, because it seems like good strategy mechanics promote LTC. The actual problem is when a game is so unbalanced that LTC just consist of using the same overpowering tactics over and over again. And really it makes sense. if a player knows they can accomplish their objectives in less turns they would want to do that. This means they will try to do the most they can in each turn. A strategy game with a higher actions to turns ratio is a lot more interesting than one with a low ratio. Soooo... Then we should try to find ways to mess up LTC strategies and play styles so they don't fall into the same category then? Thinks like hampering high-movement units with weak enemy-phase combat and the like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrouded In Myth Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 I think that's a completely separate issue, one of balance between player units. And as I said before LTC is not a problem, degenerate play is, and that is caused by unbalanced mechanics, units and weapons Most degenerate play comes from turtling and grinding while interesting scenarios often involve incentives by going fast, judging by what players say in favorite chapter threads. I mean there's stuff like warp which used to trivialize maps in LTC, but that's not the fault that FE allows LTC play, it's that Warp is broken. Some casual players hate LTC because some units become useless and they miss out on some content. The solution? Keep LTC in mind when designing maps and balancing units so they're still fun in LTC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 I think that's a completely separate issue, one of balance between player units. And as I said before LTC is not a problem, degenerate play is, and that is caused by unbalanced mechanics, units and weapons Most degenerate play comes from turtling and grinding while interesting scenarios often involve incentives by going fast, judging by what players say in favorite chapter threads. I mean there's stuff like warp which used to trivialize maps in LTC, but that's not the fault that FE allows LTC play, it's that Warp is broken. Some casual players hate LTC because some units become useless and they miss out on some content. The solution? Keep LTC in mind when designing maps and balancing units so they're still fun in LTC. It's not just that though. To be more specific the problem is that the game itself is highly focused on speed and aggression with defenses being tossed aside most of the time. There is little incentive to playing defensively and tons to... Hmmm... How about this? A truly hopeless chapter? I.E. You WILL lose no matter what even if it means the computer has to spawn a ton of mega-high level foes on you? The catch is that, if a units HP reaches 0, they don't 'die' right away but if they can reach a 'safe' zone they'll survive the stage; but the player must ALSO survive for a certain amount of turns to clear the stage as well with more EXP and items being awarded for holding out longer and longer. Sure, LTC players will probably rush to the minimum, but their weaker, speed/aggression-focused, units will struggle to survive while slower players with stronger units get more long-term rewards. Not to mention that the sheer act of surviving for as many turns as possible could be considered a test of skill in-of itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrouded In Myth Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 I find that to be a good thing,and actually think that Fire Emblem should do more to discourage defensive play, turtling breaks the game. Defensive play is usually boring because you don't dictate the pace, the enemy does. The auto scrolling levels in Mario aren't very popular precisely for this reason; slower players are forced to speed up and risk losing and faster players have to slow down and be bored.It's good in small amounts for some variety, but I don't think a game should be made with this design in mind. I guess you can promote a sort of aggressive turtling type of play, where you have to play defensive, but you also have to advance. For this I would recommend escort missions. Berwick Saga had these sorts of missions and I found them more interesting than defense maps. My only problem with them is that if you play fast then you will run out of things to do since of turn based reinforcements. Just have a sort of event trigger for that as well and I think it will be good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 FE12 is pretty good about punishing turtles in some maps, though not all of them. Nearly every map has a rush objective, and the higher difficulties punish overly aggressive play because of the insane damage and accuracy the enemies have. So you have to find just the right balance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 FE12 is pretty good about punishing turtles in some maps, though not all of them. Nearly every map has a rush objective, and the higher difficulties punish overly aggressive play because of the insane damage and accuracy the enemies have. So you have to find just the right balance. I think the strength there is the optional objectives you need to complete for the "true" ending; collecting all the Starsphere shards and the other orbs. FE6 did something similar with the Divine Weapons that frequently came attached to turn limits, although they're usually quite easy to fulfill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gradivus. Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 (edited) Reinforcements on some lategame maps and the starlight village also encourage playing at a decent pace. Slow play is viable on many maps in FE12, but often still requires offensive strategies, rather than chokepoint turtling or similar. FE13 has some good anti-turtling stuff too (maps are very open and lategame reinforcements are extremely numerous), but it's easier to overlook because the game has a lot of EP juggernauts, especially gen 2 characters. Imo making turtling more demanding / efficient play more rewarding is a good thing, since turtling can pretty much cheese the game otherwise. FE11 is pretty easy to trivialize with generals because many of its maps don't have such anti-turtling incentives. Edited August 23, 2015 by Gradivus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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