Issues with the Nohr path story line?

[Gomez_Addams]

What about in Chapter 15 when both Kamui and Azura are both in Touma, but Azura completely forgets to mention anything about Anankos/Touma? Is the insane and omnicidal Dragon-God hell-bent on destroying everything and is deliberately perpetuating the war not worth discussing for some reason?

Well it's not like they can actually DO anything about Anankos even if they did know about him.

How can a king in a society modeled on pre-Meiji Japan be the supreme overlord Ryoma apparently is?

It's not "modeled" after pre-Meiji Japan, it merely has a pre-Meiji Japan aesthetic. Just like how Nohr isn't modeled after any particular European country.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Gomez_Addams

[NeonZ]

What about in Chapter 15 when both Kamui and Azura are both in Touma, but Azura completely forgets to mention anything about Anankos/Touma? Is the insane and omnicidal Dragon-God hell-bent on destroying everything and is deliberately perpetuating the war not worth discussing for some reason?

I'd say that's more a problem with the IK route. It really makes no sense for Azura to have all that knowledge in the first place. Based on what was shown in IK, she apparently wouldn't even need the crystal ball to tell about Garon's true nature anyway.

Edited October 5, 2015 by NeonZ

[Alazen]

Hoshido allegedly not being modeled on pre-Meiji Japan doesn't excuse how flat it is (at least when it comes to government).

[NeonZ]

(Double post)

Edited October 5, 2015 by NeonZ

[Gomez_Addams]

Hoshido allegedly not being modeled on pre-Meiji Japan doesn't excuse how flat it is (at least when it comes to government).

Fire Emblem has always been bad at making its countries have complex, realistic governmental systems.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Gomez_Addams

[JupiterKnight]

The Crystal Ball didn't even need to be done with just the two of them. She even admits that a mage as powerful as Leon can use it just like a descendant of dragons can.

[Ryo]

Well it's not like they can actually DO anything about Anankos even if they did know about him.

Considering that she didn't even want to let Kamui or anyone to know of IK (even though the crystal ball actually needs concentrated dragon blood to activate lol), it's obvious that she's being mysterious for the sake of being mysterious.

Had it been that she's brought up Hydra/Anankos, they discussed it and figured that it's too late to do anything about it then that would've been another story (but even then, she should have shown people IK and told them everything she knew eons ago). However, Nohr!Aqua purposely acted like she didn't know about Hydra.

Basically, the original two paths didn't even need to exist in the first place. The only reason they did was due to the actions (or lack of) of these 5 people: Aqua. Lilith, and the Awakening trio.

[Alazen]

Fire Emblem has always been bad at making its countries have complex, realistic governmental systems.

Past FEs have done better at showing nations or whatever (especially the Lord's) with infighting or conflicting agendas. Even Binding Blade had Wagner, Erik, and Leygance in Lycia then later on Roartz and Arcard in Etruia who had the clout to carry out a coup. Yet Hoshido apparently doesn't have any daimyo or generals or whoever on their level?

Edited October 5, 2015 by Alazen

[JupiterKnight]

Considering that she didn't even want to let Kamui or anyone to know of IK (even though the crystal ball actually needs concentrated dragon blood to activate lol), it's obvious that she's being mysterious for the sake of being mysterious.

Had it been that she's brought up Hydra/Anankos, they discussed it and figured that it's too late to do anything about it then that would've been another story (but even then, she should have shown people IK and told them everything she knew eons ago). However, Nohr!Aqua purposely acted like she didn't know about Hydra.

Basically, the original two paths didn't even need to exist in the first place. The only reason they did was due to the actions (or lack of) of these 5 people: Aqua. Lilith, and the Awakening trio.

I figured Aqua was always a little bloodthirty and sorta getting back at Hoshido for kicking her out. I mean her plan on IK was "Attack Nohr" and then "Attack Hoshido" and then "Oops looks like we shouldn't have done that! Lol".

Heck she could have just gone into a lake to take Kamui with her instead of going down the chasm the first time. They just have to take it out since normal humans can't use lakes to do it.

[blinkingbrave]

Past FEs have done better at showing nations (especially the Lord's) with infighting or conflicting agendas. Even Binding Blade had Eric and Leygance in Lycia then later on Roartz and Arcard in Etruia who had the clout to carry out a coup. Yet Hoshido apparently doesn't have any daimyo or generals or whoever on their level?

Hoshido allegedly not being modeled on pre-Meiji Japan doesn't excuse how flat it is (at least when it comes to government).

It's definitely flat, I agree, but I guess I don't see it as a detraction from the main story, mostly because of how little time you spend in Hoshido. I'm at chapter eighteen on Nohr and we still haven't made it to Hoshido, and you're outta there by... chapter nine on the Hoshidan route itself. It'd be more an issue if they went the political drama route with it or spent more time in Hoshido, but since soooo much of the Nohr focus is on the individual characters and the Hoshidan on fighting Nohrians, it feels like to devote time to that would be a lil... out of place, especially on the Nohr route, which is already dialogue heavy for an FE game. I think it'd just end up feeling like filler...

I wouldn't even say past FE's have done this better. They usually tend to go the one-off boss route or the FE4 style walls of text, neither of which I find terribly engaging. There's definitely more content there, but I dunno if that's always a good thing in terms of main narrative (just take LotR as an example. hellooooo, pace/mood ruining elf songs). And Nohr's super dialogue heavy already. It works in older installments because political drama's already the focus and/or the main plot's light anyways so padding it with extra world-building doesn't really impede on what's already going on. Just looking at Nohr, there's just not much room, given that every chapter pushes the war with Hoshido (focusing more on Hoshidan royalty drama, not general Hoshido), develops a character, displays some act of rebellion from Marx and/or Kamui (sometimes feat. Leon), and/or reminds you IK is a thing.

In Hoshido, there's some more wiggle room. Some of those chapters are pretty light on dialogue, and that route is more typical FE plot anyways. Buuuut the thread's about Nohr route, soooo... Discussion for another time, I guess.

And it might just be a difference of taste. ASoIaF-type lore makes my eyes glaze over, but all the ASoIaF character drama is totally my jam. I kinda prefer the Harry Potter/Mortal Instruments 'share it as it's relevant' deal. Might also depend on if you consider world-building separate from storyline.

Edit: Juuuuust now realized that the lack of Hoshido at all could be your issue/part of your issue/whatever? In which case, yeah, no, there's really just not much focus on Hoshido at all. I don't really mind it, obviously, but that's fair and yeah, the story doesn't focus much on them. I'd say that falls more on Hoshido than Nohr, though.

Edited October 5, 2015 by blinkingbrave

[Ryo]

Just looking at Nohr, there's just not much room, given that every chapter pushes the war with Hoshido (I mean, I guess they could squeeze something here, but even the focus in these chapters is on Hoshidan royalty drama, not general Hoshido), develops a character, and/or displays some act of rebellion from Marx and/or Kamui (sometimes feat. Leon). And IK references, I forgot that they've got some chapters for those, too.

I have to disagree here.

None of the main characters have any notable character development on the Nohr route. All of their motivations are hidden inside support convos that you have to dig for the right one to even find out. They don't do or say anything special in the main story, and would only turn their back against Garon when he's revealed to be a slime monster, which is already near endgame. I would argue that the Nohrian siblings undergo much more developments on the Hoshido path. Elise outright sided with Kamui and the Hoshidan there. Leon actively assisted us.

And Marx doesn't do anything "rebellious" at all, he's the most devoted to Garon out of all the siblings, even though he clearly knows that his father's deeds are questionable and not always best for the country. When he's doing anything behind Garon's back, it's because he thinks the enemy's being dishonored, not because he's doing it against Garon's benefit. He suspects you of being a traitor when you tells him that Garon's the real enemy. After you've helped them conquering Hoshido and destroyed your other family. And that's two chapters before endgame...

Edited October 5, 2015 by Ryo

[Alazen]

On top of what Ryo pointed out, there's the problem of how despite supposedly being character focused Nohr has an issue with making sure the royal siblings (for both sides) are all relevant for how close they are to Kamui. There's the younger brothers and I guess the older brothers, but the sisters are shafted (even if Elise does have a minor role in Birthright) and really come off as there for marriage fodder. Put in Kamui's sidekicks with Aqua and you can figure Fates has an overly large ''core'' cast for what the developers were willing or able to do.

[blinkingbrave]

I have to disagree here.

None of the main characters have any notable character development on the Nohr route. All of their motivations are hidden inside support convos that you have to dig for the right one to even find out. They don't do or say anything special in the main story, and would only turn their back against Garon when he's revealed to be a slime monster, which is already near endgame. I would argue that the Nohrian siblings undergo much more developments on the Hoshido path. Elise outright sided with Kamui and the Hoshidan there. Leon actively assisted us.

And Marx doesn't do anything "rebellious" at all, he's the most devoted to Garon out of all the siblings, even though he clearly knows that his father's deeds are questionable and not always best for the country. When he's doing anything behind Garon's back, it's because he thinks the enemy's being dishonored, not because he's doing it against Garon's benefit. He suspects you of being a traitor when you tells him that Garon's the real enemy. After you've helped them conquering Hoshido and destroyed your other family. And that's two chapters before endgame...

I'd say there's a good amount of overarching focus on Kamui's development. She gets several chapters about her naivety and several more where she has to come to terms with Nohrian methods/morality. Since she does end up kinda jaded (I mean... she just kinda lets Leon go ahead and murder Zoro, despite being unwilling to kill anyone for the sake of saving her own skin at the beginning of the route split) and her character+internal struggle is more fully explored here than in the supports, it feels me like some character growth happens and it's a focus of the Nohr route, starting even at the beginning of the route split.

We also get some more understanding behind the Nohrian siblings. While they aren't changing as people, we still get the motivations to their actions more fully understood over the course of the main plot. Starting from Camilla's intro, you get this lil string of almost sequential chapters on the Nohrian royalty and where they stand with Garon's actions. It's not the same level of exploration as in the supports, but it's still a commonality over multiple chapters, and certain characters (Leon and Marx, really) get multiple chapters where you return to whatever reveal they had shown earlier. I'd say Takumi and Ryouma get some similar character focus as well. Perhaps I shouldn't quite label this as character development, maybe more... character exploration, but it goes beyond base action because we usually get some explicitly stated motivation or some monologue or whatever beyond 'this happened' without any statement or clue to opinion. Since it occurs in a good number of chapters, I'm inclined to label it as a focus.

Marx turns against his father's allies twice (and that's just as of... chapter 18, I think?) because he disagrees with their methods. Just blatant 'I understand Father secretly promised you things because you helped him, but you're not the sort of person who should have power in my country, so I'm going to kill you.' And then you... just kinda kill them all so the news of that betrayal never gets back to Garon. If I remember correctly, he's the one who actually leads both actions (he definitely leads it at least once), not even Kamui. And in the first instance, you're fighting along Saizou and the Hoshidans as allies, in the second, you're saving the Hoshidan royalty's lives. I dunno, I kinda read it as... well, betrayal. It doesn't seem like Marx understands it as betrayal, but Leon clearly does, and he doesn't have the same sense of justice or attachment to his father. He definitely has a different understanding of it when it comes to his father, buuuuut he's not hesitating a scrap when it comes to cutting down the men doing his work. You're just straight up killing Nohrians and Nohrian allies at one point because they had Ryouma, Hinoka, Takumi, and Sakura captive through a method Marx disagreed with.

@Alazen: Eh, fair criticism. I think Nohr focuses a good deal on Kamui and Marx (with some Leon and Aqua) over everyone else, but all the royals, including Elise and Camilla, still get pretty consistent talking bits, despite not always driving the plot. Camilla probably gets the shortest end of the stick because Elise has a few chapters headstart without competing royals and Leon joins right on her heels, but she still gets her bit. It's not like the game forgets about them a la Lilina.

They definitely have too large a sibling cast for them all to be equally important. Personally, I get why a few were focused on because it helps the plot stay directed, but I wish that they at least would've picked the opposite pair to get more attention on the other route.

Since the girls do all have fairly frequent talking bits (and these aren't just ship bait talking bits, even for Camilla), they don't really feel just there as marriage fodder to me. Except Aqua, who frequently feels... forgotten once you have enough royals for them to interact amongst each other. And gets those ship bait talking bits.

But, nah, I agree that the sisters should've gotten more focus. They get some... but it's really not the same level as Marx and Leon (which was surprisingly good for what FE usually shows in main plot). I'm kinda hoping they'll get some exploration on Hoshido because I know they're supposed to get some chapters, buuuut given that I haven't run across the same exploration of the Hoshidan brothers (Takumi's gotten some but it's... different) as I have Marx and Leon on their own route, I'm not really holding my breath...

Edited October 5, 2015 by blinkingbrave

[JupiterKnight]

Leon does have his fair share of character bits in Nohr, being the guy who wisely kills people who need to be put down for logical reasons (Zoura, Iago) and also lies to Garon in order to have him and the other siblings try to save some of the Songstresses during the purge caused by Aqua's bungled attempted to deslime him. In fact a part of what motivates them for going against Nohr on Hoshido is mostly that Kamui is on their side. Otherwise they would stand by Nohr till the end.

[Ryo]

I'd say there's a good amount of overarching focus on Kamui's development. She gets several chapters about her naivety and several more where she has to come to terms with Nohrian methods/morality. Since she does end up kinda jaded (I mean... she just kinda lets Leon go ahead and murder Zoro, despite being unwilling to kill anyone for the sake of saving her own skin at the beginning of the route split) and her character+internal struggle is more fully explored here than in the supports, it feels me like some character growth happens and it's a focus of the Nohr route, starting even at the beginning of the route split.

We also get some more understanding behind the Nohrian siblings. While they aren't changing as people, we still get the motivations to their actions more fully understood over the course of the main plot. Starting from Camilla's intro, you get this lil string of almost sequential chapters on the Nohrian royalty and where they stand with Garon's actions. It's not the same level of exploration as in the supports, but it's still a commonality over multiple chapters, and certain characters (Leon and Marx, really) get multiple chapters where you return to whatever reveal they had shown earlier. I'd say Takumi and Ryouma get some similar character focus as well. Perhaps I shouldn't quite label this as character development, maybe more... character exploration, but it goes beyond base action because we usually get some explicitly stated motivation or some monologue or whatever beyond 'this happened' without any statement or clue to opinion. Since it occurs in a good number of chapters, I'm inclined to label it as a focus.

Marx turns against his father's allies twice (and that's just as of... chapter 18, I think?) because he disagrees with their methods. Just blatant 'I understand Father secretly promised you things because you helped him, but you're not the sort of person who should have power in my country, so I'm going to kill you.' And then you... just kinda kill them all so the news of that betrayal never gets back to Garon. If I remember correctly, he's the one who actually leads both actions (he definitely leads it at least once), not even Kamui. And in the first instance, you're fighting along Saizou and the Hoshidans as allies, in the second, you're saving the Hoshidan royalty's lives. I dunno, I kinda read it as... well, betrayal. It doesn't seem like Marx understands it as betrayal, but Leon clearly does, and he doesn't have the same sense of justice or attachment to his father. He definitely has a different understanding of it when it comes to his father, buuuuut he's not hesitating a scrap when it comes to cutting down the men doing his work. You're just straight up killing Nohrians and Nohrian allies at one point because they had Ryouma, Hinoka, Takumi, and Sakura captive through a method Marx disagreed with.

That's my point. Marx's killing them because he disagreed with their methods, not because he's actually being rebellious.

[blinkingbrave]

That's my point. Marx's killing them because he disagreed with their methods, not because he's actually being rebellious.

Oh. I agree with you there, then. It's definitely a 'best for my country' and/or 'all to save Father' kinda deal. How much he's actually intending it to be full on rebellion is up to interpretation.

It still reads to me like an 'act of rebellion' though, despite Marx's potential lack of rebellious intent. Leon's (and he's pretty clearly the most pragmatic one between the Kamui-Marx-Leon trio) gotta cover your tracks at one point because he can't have news of your and Marx's escapades getting back to Nohr, you're killing Garon's allies, and I, at least, thought it was pretty clear Garon would not be cool with it.

Edited October 5, 2015 by blinkingbrave

[arvilino]

What about in Chapter 15 when both Kamui and Azura are both in Touma, but Azura completely forgets to mention anything about Anankos/Touma? Is the insane and omnicidal Dragon-God hell-bent on destroying everything and is deliberately perpetuating the war not worth discussing for some reason?

In chapter 15 Corrin only catches Aqua going into the Invisible Kingdom by chance. Much like the other siblings not knowing or being hinted at the nature of Garron until the end. Corrin doesn't really need to know about Touma and Anankos to prevent Anankos' plan and acheive peace, in the Nohr route Corrin could not be expected to assemble the Fire Emblem it's kind of like the Hoshido route Corrin never even really needed to know about the way Garron is at all.

[Alazen]

The Invisible Kingdom and characters linked to it really drag down Fates' narrative. I can't think of anything or anyone linked to it (or at least how they are in the actual Fates) that helps the narrative.

Hydra is Grima doing his best Duma impression who also serves to trivialize or simplify conflicts to ''The dragon did it/Made me do it''. Aqua is an expositionbot who proposes silly plans. ''No talking about Touma'' is Fates' answer to the Blood Pact. The Invisible History failed to warrant the presence of the returning Awakening children. Fake Garon is a shoddy twist and his presence with the shenanigans featuring him trivializes the issue of rebelling against him, namely when it comes to getting all of the Nohr siblings to fight the king. Hate Monster Takumi and the shenanigans featuring him are transparent in rubbing in that Takumi's contempt for Kamui is damn wrong. And anything else I haven't mentioned.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Alazen

[JupiterKnight]

Hydra is also part Ashunera, having taken a part of his self and discarding it. He's even done it twice and even merges with one part of himself to regain temporary sanity once again. Also he was benevolent in the past, unlike Grima.

And no it doesn't really do that. Hydra just exploits emotions that are already there and exaggerates or makes them worse because Takumi has other issues Hydra is exploiting. Literally his reappearance in Hoshido during the Fuuma chapter is all about him crying about how nobody cares about him or wants him, but rather want Kamui so he'll kill them all. It just takes his others issues, combines them with his distrust of Kamui, and makes Kamui the main target of his vendetta (Because Hydra wants Kamui to suffer). He would have gone after his other siblings as well if Aqua wasn't there to cure him with her song. Seriously you keep going on and on about the brainwashing but it's treated as tragic and that for his issues he did want to get to Kamui. In fact Nohr actually makes the brainwashing take way longer to completely control him while it happens instantly on Hoshido and even then he's an unwilling spy under Iagos control for most of Hoshidos story after Aqua tried to fix him.

Edited October 5, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[B.Leu]

Something that really irks me is how much of a dweeb Kamui is when you side with Nohr. Of all the three routes, Nohr is definitely my favourite (character, music, and map wise) but Kamui is such an idiot in this path. He constantly says things that could get him executed, he isn't smart about trying to go behind Garons back, and he regrets not siding with Hoshido?? It's very frustrating when they allow us to create our own MC but then characterize them as a naive child. I understand to a certain degree that Kamui is a sheltered noble but seriously..

I'm still going to love Fates a lot, but other games in the series have made better attempts at complex characters. :<

Indeed, what's the point in creating a buffed character with a baritone voice of badass, if it have the personality of a teenager stupider than normal ?

You are going to laugh, but this is very common in japanese manga/video game to have a very stupid/dense/naive/weak/shota/'normal' main character, either so the player/reader can easily relate to them (lol), because the writing is dumb, or both.

Or to keep the plot as long and stupid as possible, that one is more for manga and anime though.

Edited October 5, 2015 by B.Leu

[Alazen]

spoiler

Nothing you posted changes that a dragon was corrupting Takumi. None of it changes how the game rubs in that his contempt for Kamui is damn wrong either.

I know you're apparently a Fates apologist, but I'm wondering if you're playing Devil's Advocate by this point.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Alazen

[JupiterKnight]

I have never said there weren't problems with the game. These are just things I personally don't have a problem with.

Edited October 5, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[blinkingbrave]

Nothing you posted changes that a dragon was corrupting Takumi. None of it changes how the game rubs in that his contempt for Kamui is damn wrong either.

I know you're apparently a Fates apologist, but I'm wondering if you're playing Devil's Advocate by this point.

I agree with JupiterKnight on Takumi, too, but it'd definitely help me understand where your view comes from if you could kinda... give me some examples of where you got the whole ' the games rubs in his contempt for Kamui as damn wrong.' Like plot points, some paraphrased dialogue, a support...? Just something I could look at and point to would make it a lot easier for me to understand your opinion. I get that Takumi was possessed, but he wasn't the only one, so possession alone doesn't really quite cover this for me, and the way his possession is presented... feels more pitiable than anything else. If there's maybe a point in the plot you could show me where you got this impression (perhaps I just read his dialogue as pitiable and you didn't), I think this viewpoint would make a lot more sense to me, and we won't have to keep reiterating the same things...

The plot definitely has issues, but this particular one, I don't really see... Like I said, an example so I can see where you're getting this interpretation from would be really helpful.

I don't terribly want to argue against it, because we seem to just have fundamentally different views on the matter, but getting some of the reasoning behind your opinion would really help me appreciate where you're coming from.

Edited October 5, 2015 by blinkingbrave

[Alazen]

Takumi gets chastised for his attitude towards Kamui, gets a hate monster, and tells Kamui how wrong he was to not worship him. Being a pawn for a cartoon villain doesn't help.

I don't remember Shinon being corrupted by a cartoon villain.

[arvilino]

Takumi gets chastised for his attitude towards Kamui, gets a hate monster, and tells Kamui how wrong he was to not worship him. Being a pawn for a cartoon villain doesn't help.

I don't remember Shinon being corrupted by a cartoon villain.

Takumi apologises for the way he acted, nothing to do with worshipping and Corrin also apologises. Shinon never liked Ike but he just went on his own way, he wasn't going out of his way to kill Ike for Greil's death.

Past FEs have done better at showing nations or whatever (especially the Lord's) with infighting or conflicting agendas. Even Binding Blade had Wagner, Erik, and Leygance in Lycia then later on Roartz and Arcard in Etruia who had the clout to carry out a coup. Yet Hoshido apparently doesn't have any daimyo or generals or whoever on their level?

Notice none of them are actually from the main lord's home countries? The equivalent of those characters would be Kotaru from Fuuma. Hoshido isn't Lahus or Etruia, it's Altea, Chalpy, Pherea, Renais, Ylisse, Gallia. Where with the exception of that one guy from Ylisse who sells the party out in chapter 7 of Awakening or Orson(due to circumstances and not his normal state of mind) there are no bad people at all or infighting in those kingdoms(or Duchy in Chalpy's case I guess).

Edited October 5, 2015 by arvilino