Issues with the Nohr path story line?

[Alazen]

I couldn't care less what DLC pulls out of nowhere. It obviously wasn't important enough to be shown in the vanilla game.

And no, it's WoW raid boss junk.

Revealing the one sibling noted for his contempt towards Kamui as being corrupted by a dragon is something you'd see in WoW.

[JupiterKnight]

It wasn't just exploiting that but his issues in general. As he does feel inferior to Ryoma and Hinoka and that his family doesn't need him. Just like Gunter's issues about his dead family and destroyed home were exploited to make him a vessel in IK. Takumi just has someone he can use as an actual target for his rage.

You're going to have to accept it because the DLC is canon and no terrforming a planet is not pulling something out of nowhere because Dragon's Vein already alters the environment. Just on a much smaller scale because humans and Kamui are not the dragon god that they got that power from.

Not to mention he can brainwash the spirits of the dead, which he did to Aqua's mother and Sumeragi. Mikoto still has her original personality even if she's being forced to follow his will.

Edited October 2, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[Alazen]

Keep on defending it. Takumi is a WoW raid boss in Fire Emblem. So is Hydra actually.

And you can go on about DLC being canon all you want. Either it wasn't important enough to be shown in the vanilla game (counting Invisible Kingdom) or apparently it's dandy to restrict important details for the backstories of the Ultimate Mastermind Behind It All and the Awakening characters to DLC.

Hydra isn't an interesting character in practice by the way. And as he is now he brings nothing that warrants his presence.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Alazen

[JupiterKnight]

No you're misunderstanding. The reason Hydra's story is behind separate dlc from even IK is so IS can get more money from us and not actually have the Awakening Kids play a major role in the story. Same for Lilith keeping her relation to Kamui a secret.

That's ultimately your opinion and that wasn't what I was arguing about anyways. Just that what's seen even in the main story shows that he's perfectly capable of that. In fact brainwashing is pretty small time as far as magic goes. WoW problem is that a person suddenly goes crazy for no actual reason most of the time.

Unlike WoW Fire Emblem has established long before Fates that dragons can become crazy. That's why dragon degeneration has been a thing and why they took human form or became spirits like in Fates.

[Alazen]

Alright so important details of the final boss' backstory are restricted to DLC.

Forcing in the otherworldly where it doesn't belong is poor form. Takumi should not need to be corrupted to be so hostile towards Kamui.

Medeus wasn't trying to destroy all because insanity when he was still an Earth Dragon, instead he was forging an empire on the backs of humans for their oppression of dragons. Duma (if he counts) believed that his ideology was best for mankind, aided the ruler of Rigel in his scheme to free humanity from the gods, and had no grudge against Alm for beating him. Loptyr was acting out of the Earth Dragon grudge against mankind for how they were advancing. Idun had her soul ripped out and even then she was a pawn of Jahn with Zephiel. The Fire Dragon was a dragon who wandered into Elibe. So no, Hydra's case is not close to most dragon final bosses.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Alazen

[B.Leu]

Fire Emblem always had a problem with everything not humans writing-wise.

That's shoddy writing. That's something you'd see for a raid boss in World of Warcraft.

So... Kamui is Thrall then ? Oh well, at least there's not as much deus ex machina in Fates. Oh wait.

More into the subject, everything is already said, Kamui & co are wusses for big meanie Garon and MacBeth, nothing really happens apart from puppy kicking, "revolutionizing the kingdom from within" is a blabant lie, Kamui is forgiven and all, oh, and the plan ahah, Aqua's 'plan'...

And yeah, it doesn't help that the game is Hoshido-biased to the max, and that the plot is, frankly, crap.

Edited October 4, 2015 by B.Leu

[Nyanko]

My biggest issue is the focus on Kamui and Aqua instead of Kamui and the siblings. To me, it feels like they so wanted to force Aqua as being the super-important, mysterious waif/ love interest, and because of that, the Nohr siblings (and the plot itself) are dumbed down to accommodate her role in the story.

Marx gets the worst of it. I'm supposed to believe this intelligent man who only thinks of what's best for Nohr and hates killing the enemy, and gets so frustrated with his father when Garon gives out orders that contradicts what's good for the country that he trains "violently" late into the night, is just going to pig-headedly follow Garon's orders because he thinks that if they just win the war, Garon will go back to being the father he used to be? Please... That's incredibly naive, child-like mentality.

How much better the story would be if the focus had been on Kamui and the siblings and their struggle to overthrow Garon instead of what we got... I know Marx idolizes his father, but watching him and his siblings realise how bad Garon has gotten and work through their feelings to do what's best for Nohr would've been so interesting.

Also, I really hope the guilt-trip for not choosing Hoshido is taken out by the Treehouse team.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Sir Frederick

[NeonZ]

I don't think that has anything to do with any focus on Aqua though. The point is that they wanted to make the Nohr route about actually siding with Nohr, rather than the usual "group of rebels facing an empire". Aqua or no Aqua has little to do with that. The real problem is that their attempt to keep Kamui looking heroic while siding with Nohr, while at the same time still attempting to make Hoshido a paragon of goodness in spite of it being much more aggressive in Nohr's story clearly seems to have had a really bad response.

Like I said before, I think most of the problems would be solved if Hoshido's attempts to attack Nohr through the campaign were actually taken seriously by the characters, rather than treating even those defensive battles as regretful actions against "innocent" soldiers where they do their best to spare every single life of their "honorable" opponents. Elements like those are already there even - there's a Hoshido assassin in the Kamui/Aqua Norh support, who wishes the total destruction of Norh and its people due to deaths caused before. He technically has a fair reason, but they still need to kill him. However, the main story never portrays Hoshido like that. If that kind of portrayal were actually stronger, even if everything started due to a Nohr attack, the Hoshido invasion later becomes an inevitably if Kamui wishes to protect Nohr, a logical consequence of those earlier battles, and even the "evil" execution of Hoshido soldiers are much more acceptable, without needing to place the entire motivation behind it on the magical throne.

Of course, this is just considering the Nohr story by itself, IK and the DLC in general adds a bunch of things that aren't salvageable.

Edited October 4, 2015 by NeonZ

[Alazen]

Aqua and the other 3rd Path linked elements are problematic simply due to how they serve to trivialize and/or simplify conflicts along with making at least Kamui lose agency. Aqua has to pull out a crystal ball showing Fake Garon and come up with a brilliant plan for Kamui to finally get serious about opposing Garon and Co. Fake Garon has to sit on a magical throne for all of the Nohr siblings to fight him.

As for your second paragraph, I would say an obvious way to address that is to actually show (or at least talk about without excusing or whitewashing) Hoshidan forces performing the war crimes that actually happened in pre-Meiji Japanese warfare. With the Hoshidan leadership ordering or at least waving said war crimes off.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Alazen

[Gomez_Addams]

Aqua and the other 3rd Path linked elements are problematic simply due to how they serve to trivialize and/or simplify conflicts along with making at least Kamui lose agency. Aqua has to pull out a crystal ball showing Fake Garon and come up with a brilliant plan for Kamui to finally get serious about opposing Garon and Co. Fake Garon has to sit on a magical throne for all of the Nohr siblings to fight him.

As for your second paragraph, I would say an obvious way to address that is to actually show Hoshidan forces performing the war crimes that actually happened in pre-Meiji Japanese warfare. With the Hoshidan leadership ordering or at least waving said war crimes off.

The problem here is I really can't see Ryoma or Hinoka committing or ordering war crimes.

Takumi, maybe. Or Sakura. It's always the quiet ones...

[blinkingbrave]

I dunno... I don't think there's anything inherently wrong/poorly written in presenting the Nohr/Hoshido conflict the way it is. It serves its purpose.

IS could've taken the story in that direction, but it doesn't really feel like they did.

Not to mention depicting your playable cast as unsympathetic like that is incredibly risky. IS covered their bases by showing you that the playable Nohrians and Hoshidans are all good guys, actually fighting the same enemies for the purpose of justice (hence that whole chapter where Kamui and Marx even turn on their own ally, not because he turned on them, but because of his tactics/motivations). If the true enemies aren't the same on both routes (or leader of the 'evil' Hoshidans isn't in a similar situation to Garon), then one set of playable characters isn't as truly good as the other. No matter how it's written, I don't see how evil Hoshidans will reflect well on the Hoshidan royals. The Nohrians have the excuse of being under Garon's thumb, but Mikoto and the playable Hoshidans form the highest command in Hoshido, making them either evil or incompetent. With the connection to Mikoto being a large part of the pull to join the Hoshidan side and evil/incompetent really not being something you want attached to the Hoshidan royals, their retainers, or Yukimura, I'm not sure how this could be written to preserve the goodness of the playable cast, in the same way that the Nohrian playable cast is still good despite Garon and his crew.

Sure, in theory, people want gritty plots and darker characters... but in practice, far fewer people actually want to be placed in that situation. Much less be the 'bad guy.' Plenty of people criticize Kamui/Marx participating in the war and not rebelling against Garon, and they're the sort of grey characters I think you're asking for...?

Being grey isn't necessarily good from a playable character point. It works when you can pick your decisions or in the situation where you're depicting a non-playable character, hence the popularity of the Camus archetype, but people... don't always want to be forced to do bad things. If this were a book and not a video game, I think it'd be one thing, but since this is a medium where people are going to associate the playable characters' actions with themselves, it's a lot trickier...

Edited October 4, 2015 by blinkingbrave

[NeonZ]

As for your second paragraph, I would say an obvious way to address that is to actually show (or at least talk about without excusing or whitewashing) Hoshidan forces performing the war crimes that actually happened in pre-Meiji Japanese warfare. With the Hoshidan leadership ordering or at least waving said war crimes off.

I don't think they'd even need to perform "war crimes". Taking over cities and farms as they attempt to go into Nohr's territory would obviously bring more food and economic problems to Nohr, even if they weren't lining up people and killing them. Nohr still would be the darker side, but stopping Hoshido would be necessary in order to protect Nohr's people.

Not to mention depicting your playable cast as unsympathetic like that is incredibly risky. IS covered their bases by showing you that the playable Nohrians and Hoshidans are all good guys, actually fighting the same enemies for the purpose of justice (hence that whole chapter where Kamui and Marx even turn on their own ally, not because he turned on them, but because of his tactics/motivations). If the true enemies aren't the same on both routes (or leader of the 'evil' Hoshidans isn't in a similar situation to Garon), then one set of playable characters isn't as truly good as the other. No matter how it's written, I don't see how evil Hoshidans will reflect well on the Hoshidan royals. The Nohrians have the excuse of being under Garon's thumb, but Mikoto and the playable Hoshidans form the highest command in Hoshido, making them either evil or incompetent. With the connection to Mikoto being a large part of the pull to join the Hoshidan side and evil/incompetent really not being something you want attached to the Hoshidan royals, their retainers, or Yukimura, I'm not sure how this could be written to preserve the goodness of the playable cast, in the same way that the Nohrian playable cast is still good despite Garon and his crew.

The problem is that as things stand there's clearly many people who don't consider "it's actually Garon's fault!" an acceptable excuse and so this moral shaft, or complete incompetence, already exists in the view of many players here, even if it doesn't in IS' and the narrative eyes. That's the whole reason the Nohr story is so hated.

Edited October 4, 2015 by NeonZ

[JupiterKnight]

@Alazen:

Those are all not cases of dragons suffering from degeneration. In fact Medeus was the only Earth Dragon smart enough to actually realize that he had to take human form or else he'd go mad. That is the point I was arguing. Hydra even tried to fight off his insanity by creating the song and pendant Aqua uses, but his power grew too much that it eventually killed the people who use it.

@BlinkingBrave: They could simply have Hoshidans acting on their own to destroy the Nohrians and include things that are just limited to supports. Like the assassins mentioned above that want to kill everyone in Nohr and are just psychotically devoted to revenge. Then when he dies his friend comes to do exactly the same thing he tried to do to "avenge" him. Ignoring that they are the assassins fueled with vengeance.

Plus there are some unsavory Hoshidans, like the one family that has wanted to kill Aqua for years, and that's effectively forced out of the nation because of discrimination towards anyone connected with Nohr. Ryoma and Hinoka tried to protect her, but the soldiers captured her in the chapter she joins with the intent of killing her. Same for hunting down Nyx. Even Saizou and Belkas support shows that Hoshidans hire Ninjas to go kill Nohr families just because they don't like them, while showing how pointless it all is when the same family hires Nohr assassins to do the same thing.

And of course on Nohr Asura admits and reveals he kidnapped Aqua for Hoshido for the express purpose of instigating a war just to destroy Fuuma. He's pretty much the only ex-Hoshidan character shown in such a light. He even mentions his family served the Royal Family as well.

[Alazen]

The problem here is I really can't see Ryoma or Hinoka committing or ordering war crimes.

Takumi, maybe. Or Sakura. It's always the quiet ones...

Even if Ryoma and Hinoka wouldn't, they shouldn't be the supreme overlords of Hoshido. There could be a general and/or a daimyo who commands and/or practically rules the forces performing said war crimes. You can even play up an ongoing conflict between Ryoma's faction and (Insert Name Here)'s.

Not to mention depicting your playable cast as unsympathetic like that is incredibly risky. IS covered their bases by showing you that the playable Nohrians and Hoshidans are all good guys, actually fighting the same enemies for the purpose of justice (hence that whole chapter where Kamui and Marx even turn on their own ally, not because he turned on them, but because of his tactics/motivations). If the true enemies aren't the same on both routes (or leader of the 'evil' Hoshidans isn't in a similar situation to Garon), then one set of playable characters isn't as truly good as the other. No matter how it's written, I don't see how evil Hoshidans will reflect well on the Hoshidan royals. The Nohrians have the excuse of being under Garon's thumb, but Mikoto and the playable Hoshidans form the highest command in Hoshido, making them either evil or incompetent. With the connection to Mikoto being a large part of the pull to join the Hoshidan side and evil/incompetent really not being something you want attached to the Hoshidan royals, their retainers, or Yukimura, I'm not sure how this could be written to preserve the goodness of the playable cast, in the same way that the Nohrian playable cast is still good despite Garon and his crew.

Are you telling me that Hoshido has no noticeable leadership outside of the royals who can and would tell them to buzz off or go behind their backs if the time came?

Grannvale had Arvis and Manfroy's conspiracy to conquer lands outside of the kingdom and frame the opposing duchy leaders. Thracia 776 had Quan be a thorn for his Manster allies and Conote turning coat. Crimea had Ludveck.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Alazen

[Gomez_Addams]

Even if Ryoma and Hinoka wouldn't, they shouldn't be the supreme overlords of Hoshido. There could be a general and/or a daimyo who commands and/or practically rules the forces performing said war crimes. You can even play up an ongoing conflict between Ryoma's faction and (Insert Name Here)'s.

Are you telling me that Hoshido has no noticeable leadership outside of the royals who can and would blow them-off if the time came?

And why wouldn't the King of Hoshido (and make no mistake, despite Fire Emblem's longtime obsession with princes and princesses over kings and queens, Ryoma IS the King) have complete authority over his own nation?

[NekoKnight]

And why wouldn't the King of Hoshido (and make no mistake, despite Fire Emblem's longtime obsession with princes and princesses over kings and queens, Ryoma IS the King) have complete authority over his own nation?

It's unclear how much authority Ryoma has before Mikoto's death (the way Rinka says she's taking you to him instead of Mikoto makes it sound like he's the effective king) but there is a chance he's not completely adept or ready for leadership. Even if he were, there are always generals and soldiers who cross the line if they think they can get away with it. Making Hoshido not so sparkly white could include scenes of Hoshidan soldiers doing some nasty things because they think Ryoma won't hear about it anyway. Or they could even have a scene where Ryoma acknowledges that his soldiers sometimes do bad things but he can't go around being the moral police every time if he wants his soldiers to remain loyal to him.

[Alazen]

@Alazen:

Kaga's FEs established that the dragons who degenerated became beasts. Hydra can apparently carry out a conspiracy that spans across nations. So no, his case is not the same.

And why wouldn't the King of Hoshido (and make no mistake, despite Fire Emblem's longtime obsession with princes and princesses over kings and queens, Ryoma IS the King) have complete authority over his own nation?

Lord Jin is a daimyo of Hoshido's west lands. Thanks to assorted factors (gold mines, connections in neighboring kingdoms, a noticeable military that in practice answers to him, what have you) he has quite the leeway for the war effort against Nohr. What's Ryoma going to do if Jin has his troops pillage? Invade Jin's han for his lordship having the enemies of Hoshido rubbed out?

There you go.

[blinkingbrave]

Are you telling me that Hoshido has no noticeable leadership outside of the royals who can and would tell them to buzz off or go behind their backs if the time came?

Grannvale had Arvis and Manfroy's conspiracy to conquer lands outside of the kingdom and frame the opposing duchy leaders. Thracia 776 had Quan be a thorn for his Manster allies and Conote turning coat. Crimea had Ludveck.

Yes, based on canon. No one else is even presented on the Hoshidan side as a person of power (even despite given opportunities to introduce someone), so there's not a person to pick from, nor reason to believe someone with more leadership power than Ryouma exists. He's heir to the throne when the king and queen are dead. Unlike on Nohr, where Kamui and Marx can be told to go buzz off because the king outranks them, there's no one who outranks the royals on Hoshido. As for going behind Kamui and Ryouma's backs, the Hoshidan culture is generally depicted as one that values bloodline. We aren't led to believe that King Sumeragi had any siblings or surviving family outside his children, so there isn't anyone left to claim the throne from that angle, and without that tie to the king's blood, there's not reason to believe loyalty will be enough to lead a rebellion.

Grannvale is a different situation entirely. Arvis and all the main players were introduced in the beginning, and backstabbing and betrayal was a common theme, even from the first chapter. Can't speak on Thracia or Crimea.

It's a combo of a thematic thing and simply... not knowing any other Hoshidans. It's a simple matter to write something in for a headcanon/fanfic, of course, buuuut based on what the game showed me, I'd be inclined to think that there isn't anyone to betray Ryouma in canon.

[JupiterKnight]

@Alazen:

Hydra's an oddball as it is. He has a Dragonstone that contains his power, but he's still in dragon form. Even a piece of his stone became the pendant used to weaken him. Not to mention his core/true form is an orb, which is pretty out there when it comes to being a dragon. It can even use Invisible Breath despite having no mouth. He also ripped out parts of himself including his insanity given it and his heart human form. Plus he's only degenerated to a certain point so far that's just affected his sanity and urge to destroy things. He could become a snarling mindless beast in the future unless IS retconned how Degeneration works, which would be a stupid move to do and unfortunately something they could do in the future.

I just hope that they don't use degeneration as an excuse for every mad dragon villain in the future. Once is fine, but after that it starts to get tiring.

[Dark Sage]

I don't think it's outside the realm of reason for the Hoshidan soldiers to commit war crimes when in Nohrian territory. Obviously Ryoma and Hinoka wouldn't approve but they can't be everywhere at once so some of it would be bound to escape their notice. By war crimes, I'm assuming things like rapes and robberies at seized towns.

It probably would have helped if there were a sympathetic commander in the Nohrian forces besides the siblings. Like someone who actually puts some effort in keeping law and order and helps keep the roads clear of bandits; it would work best if the previous lords of those areas were negligent beforehand so it would actually be an improvement.

Emphasizing classism would've been great for the story. It's pretty much canon that a person in Nohr can get to a high position based on merit and not soley on class; Zero, Belka, and the Awakening trio to a lesser extent demonstrate this. Hoshido doesn't seem to display this and it's not outside the realm of possibility that there would be a much stricter and less fluid social hierarchy. It would mean there might be factions of Hoshidan peasants that would prefer Nohrian rule since they don't have to be stuck as dirt poor farmers for the rest of their life. It'd also be interesting if instead of there being a magical barrier to break through, Nohr found the right moment to strike by having infiltrators help incite a rash of peasant revolts to severely weaken the Hoshidan military. I can understand why they didn't go that route, but it seems like a wasted opportunity for me.

Really, the pieces are all there for a great story. It's the fact that it squanders or ignores them that frustrate people, especially since it seemed like they actually put an effort into the story and emphasized it in the trailers.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Dark Sage

[NekoKnight]

Yes, based on canon. No one else is even presented on the Hoshidan side as a person of power (even despite given opportunities to introduce someone), so there's not a person to pick from, nor reason to believe someone with more leadership power than Ryouma exists.

This is fallacious reasoning. You are suggesting that because no other influential members of Hoshido's society show up in game, we have 'no reason to believe they exist'. Is Hoshido run exclusively by one man? No other lords with their own agendas? It's not a defense of Fate's story-telling that these people are never shown; it's a weakness.

Ryoma might be the highest authority in name but that doesn't mean his power and influence is unrivaled. Ostia was the highest power in Lycia but the Elibe games were full of traitorous lords who subverted that authority. Why should Hoshido be exempt from the standards set by past games (or the reality of how human societies work)?

[Sunwoo]

Nohr's generals don't have to be cartoonishly evil for them to still be the "aggressors" in a war (lookin' at you, Ganz and Macbeth), nor does Hoshido have to be perfect and saintly to be the "victims". Really, what there needed to be was a balance. Which wasn't there.

[spoiler=Massive spoiler warning]The narrative is too focused on making Kamui look "good", even if he picks the "wrong" path. The solution here, obviously, is to not make Nohr the "wrong" path. Give Macbeth an actual reason to be loyal to Garon and not some spineless idiot who begs for his life whenever he's defeated. If you want to keep Ganz as a crazy evil guy, make him be the exception and not the freaking "rule". And Garon, oh poor Garon, man of missed opportunities. Don't make him a slime monster, don't make him some cartoonishly evil guy who just wants to see Hoshido burn. He could've still been a good king who feels that he has to oversee his own country's well-being over another's, and invades Hoshido for their land. He could've been a well-intentioned king who eventually became jaded due to politics being terrible, and if Kamui wants his freaking love and approval he should've at least been decent to them.

Hoshido could've just been portrayed as a country that was "blessed" by fortune but still not "perfect". Namely, the people. I've noticed that Hoshidans as a whole seem to be much more racist than Nohrians. Good, make that a point in the narrative! Nohrians may not have any particular hatred for Hoshidans, but why can't Hoshidans just be racist against Nohr for whatever reasons there may be? Propaganda, years of conflict with them, maybe Hoshido is xenophobic and isolationist and thinks everyone who is not like them is "bad"? In that respect, there could've been conflict with Kamui coming back after being raised as a Nohr prince/ss for so long, where some people dislike them and want them dead or out of Hoshido, while others argue that they are still Hoshidan by blood and want to give them a chance. And of course Kamui, who knows good Nohrians, struggling with the racism there.

I don't know, there are just many ways to make both sides morally gray without resorting to war crimes. It's just that the direction the story went in decided to make things a simple "good vs evil" thing.

[Alazen]

Yes, based on canon. No one else is even presented on the Hoshidan side as a person of power (even despite given opportunities to introduce someone), so there's not a person to pick from, nor reason to believe someone with more leadership power than Ryouma exists. He's heir to the throne when the king and queen are dead. Unlike on Nohr, where Kamui and Marx can be told to go buzz off because the king outranks them, there's no one who outranks the royals on Hoshido. As for going behind Kamui and Ryouma's backs, the Hoshidan culture is generally depicted as one that values bloodline. We aren't led to believe that King Sumeragi had any siblings or surviving family outside his children, so there isn't anyone left to claim the throne from that angle, and without that tie to the king's blood, there's not reason to believe loyalty will be enough to lead a rebellion.

Grannvale is a different situation entirely. Arvis and all the main players were introduced in the beginning, and backstabbing and betrayal was a common theme, even from the first chapter. Can't speak on Thracia or Crimea.

It's a combo of a thematic thing and simply... not knowing any other Hoshidans. It's a simple matter to write something in for a headcanon/fanfic, of course, buuuut based on what the game showed me, I'd be inclined to think that there isn't anyone to betray Ryouma in canon.

How could Hoshido ''value bloodline'' more than Grannvale or Etruria or even pre-Meiji Japan to the point that Ryoma is somehow a supreme overlord while Azmur or Mordred or (Insert Japan Heavenly Sovereign Here) wasn't?

And it wouldn't just be ''betrayal'' (if you can even call it that), it would also be an issue of Hoshidan government. Ryoma wouldn't be able to go around fighting daimyos or whoever for terrorizing Hoshido's enemies without getting a backlash.

How can a king in a society modeled on pre-Meiji Japan be the supreme overlord Ryoma apparently is?

Edited October 5, 2015 by Alazen

[Cinnamon Bun]

Something that really irks me is how much of a dweeb Kamui is when you side with Nohr. Of all the three routes, Nohr is definitely my favourite (character, music, and map wise) but Kamui is such an idiot in this path. He constantly says things that could get him executed, he isn't smart about trying to go behind Garons back, and he regrets not siding with Hoshido?? It's very frustrating when they allow us to create our own MC but then characterize them as a naive child. I understand to a certain degree that Kamui is a sheltered noble but seriously..

I'm still going to love Fates a lot, but other games in the series have made better attempts at complex characters. :<

Edited October 5, 2015 by Cinnamon Bun

[Time the Crestfallen]

What about in Chapter 15 when both Kamui and Azura are both in Touma, but Azura completely forgets to mention anything about Anankos/Touma? Is the insane and omnicidal Dragon-God hell-bent on destroying everything and is deliberately perpetuating the war not worth discussing for some reason?