blah the Prussian Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 So the Sunflower is an extremely interesting book that is made up of short stories and essays. In it, the protagonist, a prisoner in a concentration camp, is summoned to said camp's hospital. Once there, he is confronted by a dying SS man who confesses to killing 300 Jews and other prisoners in cold blood. He then begs for forgiveness. The rest of the book is made up of essays of people saying what is the right choice to make. So, I ask you, my forumites: what would you do in this situation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) Really easy choice for me to make here but I'm biased for obvious reasons. I don't forgive him. And I would simply walk away. EDIT: By the way, you're talking about Simon Wiesenthal who is beloved here (he's the one who found Adolf Eichmann). So... yeah. Edited October 26, 2015 by Jim Moriarty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted October 26, 2015 Author Share Posted October 26, 2015 Really easy choice for me to make here but I'm biased for obvious reasons. I don't forgive him. And I would simply walk away. EDIT: By the way, you're talking about Simon Wiesenthal who is beloved here (he's the one who found Adolf Eichmann). So... yeah. Yeah, I would tell him to his face that I don't forgive him and that I hope that there is a hell just so he can burn there but that might result in me being executed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 I only forgive people through regret and penitence. It's very easy to regret something then become the same asshole in the next two days. I could argue that person asked forgiveness because he was dying and he feared being sent to Hell or something, so his "repentance" is an empty attempt to redeem himself and escape a punishment he thinks he'll take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoncat Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 Well it would depend. What the guy did was indeed terrible, but is he truly sorry or is he just saying he is? Did he follow Hitler and the Nazis because he really agreed with what they were doing or did he follow in fear of what would happen to him and his loved ones if he refused/stood up to them? Without knowing one way or the other it's hard to make a decision. For me at least. If I was a Jewish prisoner then yeah, I'd call him a monster and not forgive him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted October 26, 2015 Author Share Posted October 26, 2015 Well it would depend. What the guy did was indeed terrible, but is he truly sorry or is he just saying he is? Did he follow Hitler and the Nazis because he really agreed with what they were doing or did he follow in fear of what would happen to him and his loved ones if he refused/stood up to them? Without knowing one way or the other it's hard to make a decision. For me at least. If I was a Jewish prisoner then yeah, I'd call him a monster and not forgive him. Here's the thing with the Nazis: you had an option for service if you didn't agree with them and you still wanted to serve Germany and it was the Heer. Now, the Heer was responsible for many atrocities, but it was possible to opt out of doing them if you wanted. The SS, on the other hand, had the explicit job of killing as many Untermenschen as possible, so it can be reasonably be assumed that anyone in the SS truly believed in what Hitler was doing. Basically, in Nazi Germany if you opposed Hitler the consequences were dire, but there weren't really any consequences for neither supporting nor opposing the Nazis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAssassinMercenary Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 Hitler rose to power because the people of Germany were desperate. They were in a crappy position after WWI and Hitler convinced the people that they were a master race. It's easy to convince somebody when your telling them what they want to hear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENS Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 Fuck this guy. This is my enlighted position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted October 26, 2015 Author Share Posted October 26, 2015 Hey, Life, what do you think of Albert Speer's essay? Just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoncat Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Here's the thing with the Nazis: you had an option for service if you didn't agree with them and you still wanted to serve Germany and it was the Heer. Now, the Heer was responsible for many atrocities, but it was possible to opt out of doing them if you wanted. The SS, on the other hand, had the explicit job of killing as many Untermenschen as possible, so it can be reasonably be assumed that anyone in the SS truly believed in what Hitler was doing. Basically, in Nazi Germany if you opposed Hitler the consequences were dire, but there weren't really any consequences for neither supporting nor opposing the Nazis. I see, thanks for that information. I'm not that knowledgeable on things like this...curious what SS stands for. When I saw it in the OP I just kinda ignored it because I didn't know what it was. So, these Heer people...did they also hate Jews to a certain extent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Hey, Life, what do you think of Albert Speer's essay? Just curious. Haven't read it or The Sunflower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 The SS were the ones that tortured and killed various people (Jews were the majority, but not the only ones). Now, I have the option to leave someone wallowing in his own misery - another form of torture, so to speak. "I can forgive you, but I will not speak for those you've harmed, whether it be the ones who died or the ones who are left." Why? Because I refuse to sink to the level of the SS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted October 27, 2015 Author Share Posted October 27, 2015 I see, thanks for that information. I'm not that knowledgeable on things like this...curious what SS stands for. When I saw it in the OP I just kinda ignored it because I didn't know what it was. So, these Heer people...did they also hate Jews to a certain extent? SS stands for Schustaffel, protection squad in German, because they started out as Hitlers bodyguards before he ruled Germany. The Heer was simply the regular army. They were not nice people, and they were responsible for many atrocities, but you didn't have to do it. You can't really generalize and say that all or none of them hated Jews like you can with the SS; it would be like generalizing the US army that all of them hate homosexuals or something. A good deal of them probably hated Jews but were unwilling to go as far as the Nazis did, a good deal of them hated Jews just as much of the Nazis but simply would rather serve Germany than Hitler, and a minority of them (a very small minority) didn't hate Jews at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I have problems forgiving someone who took part in the massacre of over 13 million people. I really don't care if said person was under duress. You can either die on your feet or live on your knees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted October 27, 2015 Author Share Posted October 27, 2015 The SS were the ones that tortured and killed various people (Jews were the majority, but not the only ones). Now, I have the option to leave someone wallowing in his own misery - another form of torture, so to speak."I can forgive you, but I will not speak for those you've harmed, whether it be the ones who died or the ones who are left."Why? Because I refuse to sink to the level of the SS. But that isn't the level of the SS. The level of the SS would be to torture the guy to death, and then proceed to kill every German in existence as sadistically as possible. He doesn't deserve forgiveness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 But that isn't the level of the SS. The level of the SS would be to torture the guy to death, and then proceed to kill every German in existence as sadistically as possible. He doesn't deserve forgiveness. A tortured psyche does a lot of damage, even if the wounds aren't visible. So even if he doesn't deserve forgiveness, in your opinion, I'd be willing to do so because it's something that the SS wouldn't be able to do. Think of it as the ultimate defiance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 A tortured psyche does a lot of damage, even if the wounds aren't visible. So even if he doesn't deserve forgiveness, in your opinion, I'd be willing to do so because it's something that the SS wouldn't be able to do. Think of it as the ultimate defiance. I don't think the rest of the SS would lose too,much sleep over the fact that Karl over there got forgiven by a Jew. One thing that does happen in the book is that Wiesenthal goes to visit Karl's mother, but doesn't tell her what her son did so she can preserve her image of him. That is a bigger and more deserved act of mercy than forgiving Karl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 I don't think the rest of the SS would lose too,much sleep over the fact that Karl over there got forgiven by a Jew. One thing that does happen in the book is that Wiesenthal goes to visit Karl's mother, but doesn't tell her what her son did so she can preserve her image of him. That is a bigger and more deserved act of mercy than forgiving Karl. . . .I think you're looking at this from a point of view that isn't mine. The Germans are the ones that torture, kill, and spread misery. I have no intention of following their path. Thus, when one of them has a sudden bout of remorse, I can either choose to not forgive, and leave him to his ghosts, or I can absolve what little I can, and walk down a path that is completely different than what the Germans have shown me. That's why I forgive. It's not for him - it's for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deleted35362 Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 there's so much to think about. is he just gonna go back to killing jews? does it still matter? if the holocaust still happening then a gazillion other nazis are just doing the same thing anyway...does taking care of him get in the way of other people who need medical help? will you get in trouble if you dont help him? did he kill 300 jews just because, or did he get forced to do it by authority? i dont know, living with letting someone die doesnt sound like a great life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 . . .I think you're looking at this from a point of view that isn't mine. The Germans are the ones that torture, kill, and spread misery. I have no intention of following their path. Thus, when one of them has a sudden bout of remorse, I can either choose to not forgive, and leave him to his ghosts, or I can absolve what little I can, and walk down a path that is completely different than what the Germans have shown me. That's why I forgive. It's not for him - it's for me. Ah well, I can see where that point comes from. If its for you, though, it will be up to you to do it or not, and thus forgiveness is not a moral obligation, which is something some of the essays are arguing. As long as you don't have a problem with someone refusing to forgive, okay. there's so much to think about. is he just gonna go back to killing jews? does it still matter? if the holocaust still happening then a gazillion other nazis are just doing the same thing anyway...does taking care of him get in the way of other people who need medical help? will you get in trouble if you dont help him? did he kill 300 jews just because, or did he get forced to do it by authority? i dont know, living with letting someone die doesnt sound like a great life. There is no way to save him; in the story he knew he was dying and didn't want to die unforgiven, so he summoned a Jew to ask for forgiveness. This isn't about healing, its about forgiveness. Incidentally, I would heal him so he could be put on trial and executed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Ah well, I can see where that point comes from. If its for you, though, it will be up to you to do it or not, and thus forgiveness is not a moral obligation, which is something some of the essays are arguing. As long as you don't have a problem with someone refusing to forgive, okay. There is no way to save him; in the story he knew he was dying and didn't want to die unforgiven, so he summoned a Jew to ask for forgiveness. This isn't about healing, its about forgiveness. Incidentally, I would heal him so he could be put on trial and executed. What the--NO! Forgiveness is a choice, and one that should be done only if the person feels they're ready! I can see why others wouldn't forgive him! However, I think that those who are willing to forgive him shouldn't catch flak from those who wouldn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tryhard Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 I couldn't say for certain what I would do - it sounds like an extremely emotionally scenario. If he did truly regret what he had done, it would be harder for him to live then to die, honestly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 What the--NO! Forgiveness is a choice, and one that should be done only if the person feels they're ready! I can see why others wouldn't forgive him! However, I think that those who are willing to forgive him shouldn't catch flak from those who wouldn't. I would disapprove of someone forgiving him for him, but not disapprove of someone forgiving him for themselves. Sorry about the confusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 I would disapprove of someone forgiving him for him, but not disapprove of someone forgiving him for themselves. Sorry about the confusion. I would. I deal with this shit on a daily basis in the modern world. I don't feel sorry for anyone who wants me to die simply for being Jewish/Israeli and I don't lose a second of sleep over it. If we were talking about your average Hamas terrorist instead of an SS officer, my answer would be the exact same. He doesn't deserve forgiveness and nobody should feel any guilt about an evil man dying (in a hospital bed with good care, no less). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted October 31, 2015 Author Share Posted October 31, 2015 Oh and incidentally, someone forgiving him for themselves only works if he wronged you personally. So it doesn't actually work in this specific situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.