Irysa Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) Individuals cannot forgive sinners for things they have done to other people. This is why most religions pass that responsibility to god(s). If you put me in that situation I would simply say "Shalom" and leave. The man may make of that what he will. Edited October 31, 2015 by Irysa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Oh and incidentally, someone forgiving him for themselves only works if he wronged you personally. So it doesn't actually work in this specific situation. . . .and killing a bunch of my kinsmen doesn't count? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naughx Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) . . .and killing a bunch of my kinsmen doesn't count? Well if the person killed your relatives, I hope so. Edited October 31, 2015 by Naughx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted October 31, 2015 Author Share Posted October 31, 2015 . . .and killing a bunch of my kinsmen doesn't count? No, it doesn't. If you had been related to one of them it would. To use an example personal to you, do you feel as though the Ottoman soldiers who murdered Armenian Christians wronged you personally? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 No, it doesn't. If you had been related to one of them it would. To use an example personal to you, do you feel as though the Ottoman soldiers who murdered Armenian Christians wronged you personally? Nope, because I really don't know much about that point in history. However, I flipped my shit here, despite the fact that my family escaped that fate. I identify strongly with my race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted October 31, 2015 Author Share Posted October 31, 2015 Nope, because I really don't know much about that point in history.However, I flipped my shit here, despite the fact that my family escaped that fate. I identify strongly with my race. Oh, it's natural to be angered by atrocities. However, would you feel,an individual internment camp guard wronged you personally? In that case, it would be FBI director J. Edgar Hoover responsible for the internment, so he is the one to blame for wronging your entire race, not an individual guard. Same in this situation; if you are a concentration camp prisoner and you hold a grudge, it would probably be against the entire Nazi establishment, rather than an individual soldier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Oh, it's natural to be angered by atrocities. However, would you feel,an individual internment camp guard wronged you personally? In that case, it would be FBI director J. Edgar Hoover responsible for the internment, so he is the one to blame for wronging your entire race, not an individual guard. Same in this situation; if you are a concentration camp prisoner and you hold a grudge, it would probably be against the entire Nazi establishment, rather than an individual soldier. You're really nitpicking here. It's a lot easier to feel resentment towards something you see every day, and your average concentration camp prisoner was more likely to see J Random Guard than J. Edgar Hoover/Hitler. The dying guy wasn't seeking an apology for the entirety of his side, he was seeking it for himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted October 31, 2015 Author Share Posted October 31, 2015 You're really nitpicking here.It's a lot easier to feel resentment towards something you see every day, and your average concentration camp prisoner was more likely to see J Random Guard than J. Edgar Hoover/Hitler. The dying guy wasn't seeking an apology for the entirety of his side, he was seeking it for himself. Yes, and Wiesenthal has not the authority to give it. The guard should have asked for one of the family members of his victims. I'm totally stealing this from one of the essays, but by asking for any Jew the guard is assuming they are all the same, that they have a sort of hive mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) You're really nitpicking here. It's a lot easier to feel resentment towards something you see every day, and your average concentration camp prisoner was more likely to see J Random Guard than J. Edgar Hoover/Hitler. The dying guy wasn't seeking an apology for the entirety of his side, he was seeking it for himself. You still have yet to explain why the SS soldier is entitled to even asking for forgiveness just because he's on his deathbed. "Oh, I'm dying so I just want to apologize for helping to systematically murder 6 million innocent people because they were Jews." It's ludicrous that you're actually entertaining the notion that "sorry" is worth something here. Forget the fact that he doesn't deserve forgiveness; the fact that this officer has the nerve to even ask for it simply because he's on his deathbed should sicken any rational human being. Edited October 31, 2015 by Jim Moriarty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irysa Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 I'd just like to say, the officer in question stated that he was wracked with guilt immediately after the particular massacre in question, not just a deathbed thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tryhard Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 (edited) This kinda reminds me of my grandfather when he died. He was xenophobic, homophobic, racist, and agreed with Hitler to some extent that I'm unaware of, which likely meant he was anti-semitic as well. As such, I did not like him very much. When he was dying I don't think I can find, even now, that I could forgive him so easily for those views he had - and that's with a person that truly was powerless - his opinions were just that, opinions that were never enforced. Still, I'm somewhat glad he lived, he showed me exactly what not to be. I'm not sure how much it would take to forgive someone who was actually in a position of power to carry out acts of atrocities against people. I think that would be impossible for most people, and rightly so. Edited November 1, 2015 by Tryhard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 You still have yet to explain why the SS soldier is entitled to even asking for forgiveness just because he's on his deathbed. "Oh, I'm dying so I just want to apologize for helping to systematically murder 6 million innocent people because they were Jews." It's ludicrous that you're actually entertaining the notion that "sorry" is worth something here. Forget the fact that he doesn't deserve forgiveness; the fact that this officer has the nerve to even ask for it simply because he's on his deathbed should sicken any rational human being. Because forgiveness isn't for him. It's for me. I can't say whether he had a genuine change of heart, but I'm willing to take that chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Because forgiveness isn't for him. It's for me. I can't say whether he had a genuine change of heart, but I'm willing to take that chance. And the world is also unicorns and rainbows. And genocides accidentally happen. This is so stupid of a debate. By forgiving the man, you're basically apologizing for surviving in the first place. Let him know that it's OK that he feels "remorse" over his help in the massacre of millions of people just for your own self? I must have missed the part where I feel better after all of this... because it would sicken me even more to forgive him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted November 1, 2015 Author Share Posted November 1, 2015 (edited) Regarding the genuine change of heart, I feel he should prove it. If he shows that he is no longer a Nazi by sheltering 300 Jews or trying to kill Hitler, and then proceeds to be punished for his crimes, maybe, just maybe, if I was offered a hefty bribe, I would forgive him. Sadly for our SS officer, it is far too late to make amends for what he has done. Deathbed conversions are not enough in my opinion. Feel remorse when it actually matters if you feel remorse. Edited November 1, 2015 by blah2127 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 And the world is also unicorns and rainbows. And genocides accidentally happen. This is so stupid of a debate. By forgiving the man, you're basically apologizing for surviving in the first place. Let him know that it's OK that he feels "remorse" over his help in the massacre of millions of people just for your own self? I must have missed the part where I feel better after all of this... because it would sicken me even more to forgive him. It really is a stupid debate. My actions and logic are my own, just as yours are your own. I won't argue with you regarding how you'd handle the situation, because I have no intention of changing your mind (and it would be pretty rude if that was my goal). If you don't want to forgive him, that's fine, and I have no problems with your stance. Regarding the genuine change of heart, I feel he should prove it. If he shows that he is no longer a Nazi by sheltering 300 Jews or trying to kill Hitler, and then proceeds to be punished for his crimes, maybe, just maybe, if I was offered a hefty bribe, I would forgive him. Sadly for our SS officer, it is far too late to make amends for what he has done. Deathbed conversions are not enough in my opinion. Feel remorse when it actually matters if you feel remorse. As you're not the dude who's about to kick the bucket, I think that assuming this is dangerous. He asked the wrong person for forgiveness, anyway, so I might as well take advantage of the situation and improve myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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