Would a tier list be unnecessary?

[Minischew]

A while back, I remember asking if it was too early for a tier list. The consensus at the time leaned towards "yes," but I've seen tier list polls popping up on GameFAQ's. So I'm assuming now is the appropriate time for tier lists.

However...

• As I mentioned, there's already a tier list on GameFAQ's.
• A lot of players (here) have already commented on character viability.
• There's a weekly character spotlight post, and I feel like a lot of the comments that would be made for a tier list would be said there as well.
• There's also a Unit Optimization Thread, although it seems to have died down.
• I've already seen a couple of polls here (e.g. best class, best marriage candidate), and another poll might be irritating.
• Also, I haven't actually played the game, so I don't feel like I'm a suitable candidate to lead off a tier list. I feel like someone else should do that.

Nevertheless...

• A lot of people don't seem to be taking the tier list on GameFAQ's very seriously (e.g. Orochi got an S).
• Tier lists wouldn't have to be split up into Hoshido and Nohr, since the platform here allows for up to five polls on one post.
• A tier list's focus is to find the most efficient characters. Granted, efficiency has already been discussed, but it hasn't been the main purpose of the big threads (e.g. Unit Optimization Thread).

TL;DR: I want a tier list on SF, but I feel like its purpose would be redundant and people wouldn't have much to say.

[Ownagepuffs]

Not enough people have the game to contribute. Most of the people on GFaqs voting don't have the game either.

All in all, it's a bad idea.

[Shephen]

Tier lists are fun to make, but ultimately don't really mean anything. What has been covered really in the Optimization threads and such is that a lot of people are pretty viable(Except IK) with the exceptions of Rinka, Odin and we appear to be having the Mozume debate last time I checked. On the other hand, some of the stuff that spawns from tier list debates/discussions can be pure gold.

I say go for it. Worst case scenario the tier list we make is trash but we can always come back.

[Tooru]

One player may say "XXX can AAA & BBB but cannot CCC & DDD, so XXX is Y tier".

While another player may say "XXX can AAA & BBB but cannot CCC & DDD (the same ABCD), so XXX is Z tier".

Y and Z are meaningless but ABCD may be useful for you.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Tooru

[Dark Paladin X]

The problem with character tier lists is that tier lists fail to put into consideration of player's skill and strategies. Fire Emblem Fates is a game where there are so many different variation for unit customization with Marriage and Buddy Seal options. Tiers also fail to put into consideration of personal preferences as well (for example, I put value on "magikarp" characters like Mozume while most other players in this forums do not, and I also put a lot of emphasis on high speed and luck over other stats).

Mind you that this doesn't apply to Fire Emblem games, but also other games as well. League of Legends is an example of a game where there is no definite tier list because League of Legends is a game that constantly updates with new champions, items, reworks, and balancing which cause the metagame to shift. I personally find tier lists to be very irrelevant as it fails to consider outside factors.

[Minischew]

Not enough people have the game to contribute. Most of the people on GFaqs voting don't have the game either.

All in all, it's a bad idea.

Haha, can't deny that. But I honestly doubt the people who've waited thus far will suddenly relent and get the game, and I'd like to see a tier list before the NA release... Maybe it's a bit unrealistic, but I'd like to believe that even the people that will vote without playing won't just do so on a whim. I mean, a couple of the users from the Unit Optimization Thread didn't play the game, and they seemed to have some valuable insight.

The problem with character tier lists is that tier lists fail to put into consideration of player's skill and strategies. Fire Emblem Fates is a game where there are so many different variation for unit customization with Marriage and Buddy Seal options. Tiers also fail to put into consideration of personal preferences as well (for example, I put value on "magikarp" characters like Mozume while most other players in this forums do not, and I also put a lot of emphasis on high speed and luck over other stats).

Mind you that this doesn't apply to Fire Emblem games, but also other games as well. League of Legends is an example of a game where there is no definite tier list because League of Legends is a game that constantly updates with new champions, items, reworks, and balancing which cause the metagame to shift. I personally find tier lists to be very irrelevant as it fails to consider outside factors.

It's definitely impossible to account for everyone's playing styles, but maybe it would be possible to alleviate the discord by creating some general categories? A poll could be created for each one (it would have to be limited to five, though).

So if we were to, say, have categories, it would be like (I just thought of these on the spot; feel free to tell me if they're bad):

• LTC => Pretty self explanatory; players aim to lower the turn counts. This would include rushing through Story Mode. So units with high bases may be favored over units with high growths.
• Maximizing Resources => Players aim to get all available resources, including treasure chests and all possible EXP (instead of going straight for a boss kill), as they believe this investment will save them time and effort in the long run. Here, someone like Mozume would get a high rank. Since characters will be fighting a lot, this may make it easier to forge supports, which could make using children efficient (esp. since their paralogues provide EXP).
• PP Focus => Self explanatory again; players focus on attacking during the PP and minimizing damage during the EP. This isn't to say they have to always favor PP in all maps; it simply means they generally rely more on PP than EP. Here, a character like Hana might be ranked higher, whereas in other categories, she may be ranked lower for her low durability.
• EP Focus => See above for explanation. Focus on kiting, chokehold, Guard Stance strategies. I've been hearing that this isn't really a viable strategy in FE:Fates, though (esp. in higher difficulties).
• Manipulating Maps => Players would favor characters with high mobility (esp. flying utility), Dragon Vein, refreshing utility (i.e. dancing), staff utility (e.g. Rescue, Warp, Draw, etc.), etc. Of course, characters with these benefits will probably be favored in all categories, but these players may sacrifice raw power for utility.

[dondon151]

tier lists are dead and don't provide a useful lens with which to look at how units are used

[lysander]

Tier lists are a terrible idea for anything post-FE6/7 and even then were never that useful--anybody who knows how to max rank those games knows how to be adaptable to the extent you always needed to be anyway and anybody just blindly looking at a tier list for guidance likely wasn't learning that properly as a concept.

LTC tier lists for modern games are fine-ish but also very boring and tend to rely on some heavy RN assumptions due to their nature. They only help people willing to reset until they get whatever RNs were used in the run that made the list and more generally should only be taken into consideration for other LTC runs. Efficiency, compared to max ranking, tends to be too nebulous of a concept for tier lists and is more suited for character vs. character debates rather than full tiers--you'd probably want to debate everybody vs. everybody and at that point the tier list itself would still tell you next to nothing versus the debates themselves.

I'd enjoy a debate series between people who own the games if enough of them are interested though. Or after the games are out in english/french/spanish/italian/german/whatever else.

[Dandragon]

tier lists are always a bad idea

[Minischew]

The first tier list I ever saw was actually on SF, so I thought people here liked it, lmao. Whoops. Alright, I won't be bothering you guys about tier lists anymore then, sorry. ^^;;

Tier lists are a terrible idea for anything post-FE6/7 and even then were never that useful--anybody who knows how to max rank those games knows how to be adaptable to the extent you always needed to be anyway and anybody just blindly looking at a tier list for guidance likely wasn't learning that properly as a concept.

LTC tier lists for modern games are fine-ish but also very boring and tend to rely on some heavy RN assumptions due to their nature. They only help people willing to reset until they get whatever RNs were used in the run that made the list and more generally should only be taken into consideration for other LTC runs. Efficiency, compared to max ranking, tends to be too nebulous of a concept for tier lists and is more suited for character vs. character debates rather than full tiers--you'd probably want to debate everybody vs. everybody and at that point the tier list itself would still tell you next to nothing versus the debates themselves.

I'd enjoy a debate series between people who own the games if enough of them are interested though. Or after the games are out in english/french/spanish/italian/german/whatever else.

Well, I wasn't thinking a tier list should be the only source of reference. I think it works best when mixed with other references as well, which allows people to ultimately make their own judgments about a character's value.

Also, I'm not really good at fighting games, but I still found the tier lists for them (e.g. Tekken, UMVC3) rather useful, so I thought they might be useful for FE:Fates as well. And I did get some information from the discussion from the GameFAQ's Tier Lists-- I didn't even consider using Luna as a Rescue bot until I read the discussion on the Luna Tier List-- so I was thinking, "Well, wouldn't SF have some things to say as well?"

But tbh, you guys are probably right. I did ignore a lot of tier lists' limitations simply because I wanted to see it happen. I'm still in hype mode and I wanted some kind of outlet, haha.

(EDIT: This thread isn't entirely dead, so I'll just be taking part of this comment out.)

Edited November 7, 2015 by Minischew

[Espinosa]

I'm looking forward to FE Fates link arena tbqh!

[Titamon]

Tierlists are dead, but I do miss the arguments they used to cause.

[MitoRequiem]

I like arguments so I'd be open to another tier list debate but I think at this point we don't really need it I dunno.

[-Cynthia-]

Tier lists for FE are questionably useful, because a ranked order list of units often doesn't provide enough information. For instance, a FE7 tier list may have Rebecca and Athos close to each other in the same tier. In an efficient runthrough generally speaking, Rebecca might chip a few things in the first few chapters and then is benched the rest of the game due to lack of enemy phase, lack of str, inability to double at base etc. Athos on the other hand, is quite possibly the best unit in the two chapters he's in, but is only available for that period of time- one should not take Athos's tier position as an indicator not to use him.

A more detailed unit guide is probably of more use to players, perhaps with numerical ratings perhaps not. This guide would contain information on how the unit performs against enemies at base and later in the game, viable reclass options, good resources to use on them, how to use them(utility, pair up. combat unit etc.)

Edited November 7, 2015 by -Cynthia-

[gayserbeam]

I feel that it's certainly possible to do a very broad categorizing of units, in large groups such as A, B, and C. Anything more detailed is pointless and fallible without decideding on a very strict, very limiting ruleset.

[Minischew]

A more detailed unit guide is probably of more use to players, perhaps with numerical ratings perhaps not. This guide would contain information on how the unit performs against enemies at base and later in the game, viable reclass options, good resources to use on them, how to use them(utility, pair up. combat unit etc.)

I think there's already a unit guide out there? I remember some FE:Fates guide book, and I was actually looking forward to seeing some of the rankings...

I also felt that a unit guide might be a bit repetitive, given the weekly character spotlight. I'd definitely support anyone who created one, though. I love information about characters.

I feel that it's certainly possible to do a very broad categorizing of units, in large groups such as A, B, and C. Anything more detailed is pointless and fallible without decideding on a very strict, very limiting ruleset.

Categorizing units? You mean, archetypes (e.g. Oifey)? Or are you referring to characters by route (i.e. Hoshido, Nohr, IK)? Or by fighting style, as in grouping glass canons together?

[gayserbeam]

Categorizing units? You mean, archetypes (e.g. Oifey)? Or are you referring to characters by route (i.e. Hoshido, Nohr, IK)? Or by fighting style, as in grouping glass canons together?

I mean by usefulness, like a broad tier list. In a no-grind environment, nobody is going to argue that Tsukuyomi is better than Ryoma in Hoshido, or that Mozume is better than Effie in Nohr, or that Odin is better than Xander in IK. There are units that are better than other units, so therefore tiers exist and a broad list is possible.

So I would rank IK Ryoma as an A tier, while IK Odin would sit in the C tier. However, arguing, say, which B tier units are better than other B tier units is when we start splitting hairs and it gets subjective and meaningless. Nobody will argue that Ryoma is better than Odin, but if the question was Hoshido's Kaze VS Oboro, the argument would be much longer and would ultimately veer into subjectivity.

[Loki Laufeyson]

tier lists are dead and don't provide a useful lens with which to look at how units are used

There it is. In writing. By dondon. Allow me to frame it and hang it on the walls all over the FE boards. And thus there was much squeaking and rejoicing.

Real Talk: I think its fine to discuss who does what best, but honestly, tier lists are dumb. And we as a fandom have reached the point where we really dont need them anymore. There is a difference between people talking about how units perform and who performs better at what, and a tier list.

[MitoRequiem]

You know I change my mind, I think efficiency tier lists are useful and I think those should be a thing. Cause like gayserbeam said there are units that are just better than other units and that's enough for a tier list imo.

If anyone ever wants to start up an early topic and have it slowly evolve as we transition over to the US version I'd love to see it.

[Minischew]

I really want to see tier lists...

Therefore, unless anyone else plans to create one, I'm just going to go ahead and start one off. I get that a lot of you really don't like tier lists, but I'll be labeling them, so you can easily tune them out. I won't be inundating the forum daily with 10 topics or anything, lmao.

Anyways, since you guys are aiming for general groups, should we limit the tiers to A, B, and C? Or expand it to at least S, A, B, C, and F?

[Shephen]

S, A, B, C, F sounds good. Maybe even a D tier.

[MitoRequiem]

I agree S, A, B, C, F. Split it between each route(Which I assume is implied) and is this gonna be LTC or just efficiency? I'd like to partake and look at the latter.

[gayserbeam]

If we're going to do this, why hold back?

Characters within the same tier are in no particular order.

~~~

Nohr

S

Kamui

Forced to use, potentially incredible stat spread, endless versatility, and access to the Convoy.

Azura

Dancer, undeniable utility. Passive weak heal and the stat boost songs only add to that utility.

Effie

The key wall of the early game, and with the STR and Personal Skill to ORKO many mid-defense enemies. There is no reason not to abuse her.

A

Jakob (early)

With 1-2 range, healing, 6 MOV, and passable STR, Jakob is invaluable for the early game and is in the unique situation of being able to learn skills like Aegis, Luna and Tomebreaker before most units even promote.

Camilla

Camilla acts as something of a psuedo-oifey and serves as a secondary wall and offensive behemoth when she joins.

Xander

Xander would be A for Seigfried alone, but comes with immediately usable bases and excellent STR and DEF.

Flannel

Is just generally balanced and beefy and comes with two weapons that modify his stats to suit the situation. He has access to Odd Cry and Sol for healing, automatically grinds Gems for forging, and with the Guard Beaststone, he matches or exceeds an equally-leveled Benoit in every respect and has similar bulk to Xander and Effie.

Leo

High bases, 8 MOV, and a unique weapon that has no drawbacks, with relatively high power for a tome. He's somewhat slow but his bases throw him ahead of half the unpromoteds who join you around the same time.

B

Felicia (early)

Mostly in the same boat as Jakob, but her focus on magic holds her back and means she can really only succeed offensively with magic weapons or in the Strategist class.

Elise

Your commited healer early-on, but she joins so early and has so many opportunities to heal that her level will meet or exceed your other units in a reasonable amount of time. When she does promote, she eclipses most other mages with her superior MAG and SPD. E-Rank isn't really an issue because her MAG will likely reach about 27 after promotion anyway, which is 30 AttPow with a Fire tome. For comparison, Sorceror Odin at the same level will have about 19 MAG and a max of B-rank, meaning he would need to wield Rainarok (which causes stat drops) to achieve the same power.

Kaze

Early availability, 1-2 range, great pair up bonuses, Miraculous Save and high HP, STR and SPD stats make him an above-average unit, but he's held back by weak weapons and no bulk.

Silas

Mainly for his 7 MOV, great availability, and high growths.

Luna

Berka

C

Ashura

Can staff-bot and has good bases, but you probably won't really need either from him by Chapter 16.

Lazward

Good bases, good secondary class option, and generally balanced, but is overshadowed by Luna is little faster, bulkier and has two chapters on him.

Pieri

Strong, fast, immediately usable, useful personal skill, but her low HP and DEF make her generally overshadowed by Silas.

Charlotte

Incredible STR, SPD, HP, and CRIT, but requires a little protection in the chapters just after she joins because of abysmal defences.

Nyx

Fast, strong, frail, with shaky, shaky accuracy.

Zero

Poor strength and frailty are made up for with a strong weapon, almost exclusive access to bows early on, and ability to staff bot. Unfortunately, around the time he gets staves, Asura will join and have higher STR, funtional SPD, and an actual staff rank.

F

Gunter

Bases aren't good enough when he rejoins to justify his growths.

Odin

Worst magic of a mage, mediocre bulk and speed, joins with poor offensive bases, and if reclassed, is outclassed by Luna.

Benoit

Every unit with equivalent bulk matches it with excellent STR, HP, or weapons. Benoit's STR just isn't high enough for his SPD and his bulk isn't great enough to justify using him over Effie, Flannel and Xander.

Mozume

Although she is underleveled, she can catch up in a few chapters, and will quickly exceed Zero as a Bowman. Yet the effort training her is a waste without grinding, especially considering the chapters from 8-11 aren't exactly the best for training squishies and most of your units could use the EXP themselves.

~~~

Because of their flexible stats, Flora and Izama are not included. Arthur is not included because he lost a coin flip.

What have I started...?

[Shephen]

Tier stuff

First comment in and I already massively disagree with pretty much everything you say lol.

I would do something like this:

Assuming Lunatic Nohr, efficiency, characters are in no particular order in their tier.

~~~

S

Kamui

No explanation needed

Camilla

Super amazing bases, flight, good join time, pretty much just rolls over everything on her join and for a majority of the game

Xander

Amazing bulk, Seigfred, and speed is trivial to patch up with speed wings and Charlotte pair up

Azura

Dances

A

Silas

One of the most reliable combat units in the early game, able to keep up with Kamui in faster play, good stats, great availability and 7 move

Joker/Felicia(First joining)

Both serve the same purpose of making Kamui great with their personals. Jakob can go Paladin/Great Knight for combat, while Felicia can stay as maid for staves and Explosive shuriken or Strategist for mounted magic, and both classes use staves.

Elise

Best staff user since that is all she needs to focus on for most of her existence. Aura's are also amazing, and 7 move is always great.

Leo

Magic less tanky Xander.

Zero

Good availability, good res, kills fliers, good utility with his move, staves and locktouch. Pass is also required for the endgame, and he is the easiest to train of the two you get in the campaign

Kaze

Mage/Beast killer and debuffing extraordinaire

B

Luna

Only flying staff user, Rally Speed, decent growths and good bulk

Flannel

Thwomp, Good bases and growths, good class, skills, takes less movement penalties from terrain,

Belka

Camilla lite

Elfie

Good for the early game and massive str, but still has armor knight problems. Think Nolan in that the faster you play the less useful he/she becomes

Asyura

Pre-promote with good bases and weapon ranks, but worse growths than Zero. Can still fill the niche of pass for the endgame

Jakob/Felicia(joining second)

They would do the same thing as if they joined first, but slightly worse now since its later.

C

Gunter

Great bases, access to a lot of skills, low internal level, best offensive pair up for Kamui. Growths don't exist though

Arthur

Good availability and growths, but crit prone and hit gets sketchy

Lazward

Solid bases in everything but speed. Has the option for ninja though

Pieri

meh bases but good weapon ranks. great offensive growths and high move to compensate for her low bulk.

Flora

B-staves lets her use basically every status stave, and she can debuff enemies and be a solid aurabot as well

Izana

C staves but high accuracy and can use rally mag to increase your own staff accuracy and magic. Also hits decently hard enough

Charlotte

Makes Xander super

F

Nyx

To frail and low hit to overcome her high mag and speed

Odin

Has some forced availability and contributions, but won't ever really amount to much

Benoit

Joins past the useful time for an armor knight, and is the most knight that ever knighted

Mozume

The effort to put into her isn't worth the payoff

Edited November 9, 2015 by Shephen

[-Cynthia-]

The second list makes more sense to me. For instance comparing Effie's bases to Camilla's, Camilla has +7 HP, +6 Str, +7 Skl, +14 Spd, +6 Def, +11 Res, +4 Mov(and flight). Effie does have 4 chapters of availability over Camilla where she's pretty useful, but there's no way she can make up the stat difference in that time and Camilla pretty much wins for the rest of the game.