How bad will censorship get with If?

[bookofholsety]

I know that Awakening got censored for the Australian release

okay, let me stop you right there

first of all, localisation =/= censorship. i mean, i understand why it's easy to assume otherwise. animu dubbers like 4kids and saban have done a hell of a job of convincing the world that anything that's not a straight, 1:1 translation will involve laughable amounts of censorship. but there was very little with fe13's localisation which counts as censorship. fe13 absolutely had a lot of changes with a huge number of conversations recontextualised in various ways, but calling most of those censorship is a hell of a reach; as a friend put it, "I don't think Henry was changed because he offended someone's moral sensibilities. I think he was changed because they found his original schtick melodramatic and retooled him for some cheap laughs instead."

with this in mind, i count maybe three things in fe13 that actually got legitimately censored: the "companions" label, "boingy bits" in eu, and the thorp swimsuit in na. they're all such tiny changes that it really doesn't matter in the slightest (well, except thorp, but the censorship made that image actually amusing and interesting). so sure, there's a bit of censorship, but it's really not enough to justifiably raise the spectre of CENSORSHIP DOOM

as far as fe14 goes, i will say this: waifu-fondling will be gone, and good fucking riddance. the incest issues with the supports are a bit more interesting to think about in this context: i can see most of the non-avatar ones waved through by playing the companions card again, especially in the variable case of secondgen cousins caused by parent choices. the avatar ones are guaranteed to be scrutinised a lot more heavily: partly because the whole confession cg thing makes it a lot harder to pretend the romantic overtones aren't there, and partly because a lot of the time the entire point of the conversations (ESPECIALLY camilla's) seems to amount to "hee hee look at us we're so incesty :3"

[lysander]

I mean, if you want to play semantics sure changing Henry's support wasn't necessarily censorship but I'd also hesitate to call it a valid form of localisation. It's the Vic Ireland school of localisation, if anything, where "I changed this thing because it bored me personally and I had more fun writing it again!" is the rule of the day. The sentiment people are expressing about such changes are the same regardless of what they semantically want to label them, especially in a case like Henry's where a huge question should be raised: "who is deciding that the original is bad and should be replaced by something else and what is their actual motivation for doing so". Audiences everywhere will always be divided on that form of "localisation" where some people love the Vic Ireland method and other people think he should just stop localising games. I'm not at all surprised that people struggle with what to semantically label it, as they do with most things in life.

Also, if the censorship was done in "laughable amounts" what was even the point? If the changes don't matter in the slightest, then what was the motivation for carrying them out? That's the other issue--as far as censorship goes, it was barely done and to the extent that you'd be hard-pressed to find somebody who questioned the before and yet accepted the after. Who is that audience? Why was it done? It's clearer for Bravely Default because they went full-measure there instead of half-way so you can at least imagine some potentials whys and who fors. Less people complained about it too or at least less vocally because it was more clear and thus easier to accept.

Trying to tone down incest to the best of their ability is a thing I think they'll most certainly do, but at the same time I highly doubt they'll cut entire features just to do it. And that is what they'd have to do. At a certain point you just have to cut your losses, same as not just entirely removing all of Nowi's S-rank supports or removing the ability to S-rank children with MU. Skinship in general was more likely than not put in to serve the same purpose regardless of region: act as another pull for expanding into the casual female gamer audience. I don't see them removing it and just more generally I don't see them putting effort into and designing features that less than half of their sales would see--awakening sold more in europe and NA than Japan (2/3 vs. 1/3) and there's no way they didn't discuss things with the other regions.

[Loki Laufeyson]

I feel that if they cut too much content people will be extremely angry. I only expect them to tone down or remove the lolicon/shotacon at the moment.

Removing the incest would cause too many fans to go ballistic, cuz everyone a lot of people want to fuck Marx, Camilla, Leon and Takumi, so I don't think this will get axed, just... hmm, heavily modified. No more "nee-san" or such stuff.

People are going to get angry no matter what they do to the game. But they arent going to be removing anything that requires a great amount of coding. I think a lot of localization changes will be made to make some things more comfortable. I dunno about how they are gonna handle the supports (S) with Hoshidan siblings and things. Thats...welp poor localization team.

as far as fe14 goes, i will say this: waifu-fondling will be gone, and good fucking riddance.

PFFFFF no it wont. Maybe in Australia, but do not bank on that going bye-bye anywhere else. And since Australia is PAL anyway, i fucking HIGHLY doubt thats going anywhere. All thats going to change there is some of the dialogue in that feature. To expect that feature to be removed entirely is....woefully naive.

[DLNarshen]

I, for one, will be furious if I can't fondle my child-bride imoutos in the localized version.

[Rhesus]

...I'm just going to pretend that last post never happened

I probably have a fairly optimistic view of how much is getting cut and I think the interaction aspect of My Room has a pretty good chance of staying. sure, they're free to tone down the dialogue as they see fit and I see it as adding another dating sim aspect to the game. if Tokimeki Memorial, the most light-hearted of them all can get away with it, so can Fire Emblem

(yes I know tokimemo is and has been Japan-only for its entire existence but it's what the feature immediately made me think of)

as for the sibling marriage, I wouldn't care at all if they outright bar you from marrying them but (don't confirm/deny if you know) I'm 95% sure the game's gonna pull a "guess what you're not related to any of them ooooooh" further in the story

Edited November 7, 2015 by Rhesus

[Alazen]

I'm more focused on how American and European localizers might address the ''Hoshido=Innocent pre-Meiji Japanlike Who Does Nothing Wrong VS Nohr=Invading War Crimes Happy Medieval Europelike'' dynamic. Even if this isn't a case of Japanese nationalism impacting development, I wonder if the Western localizers might figure to tone that element down (like say, rewriting Hoshidan non-playable bosses to be more shady).

Edited November 7, 2015 by Alazen

[PuffPuff]

What gayserbeam said. Plus, due to cultural differences and generally weirded-out reactions towards it, I would not be surprised if FE Amie got cut.

I don't use it anyway. It only benefits the avatar in support increases. That's it!

It's actually annoying to do it so much when were at war here and should be having to concentrate at the matter at hand here!

While I understand your point lysander, as those aren't my favorite designs either, the two classes in question are a dancer (who have flashy or revealing clothes in... literally every medium ever), and a nightseeker (essentially an assassin, and the outfit is a great way to distract someone enough to kill them tbh). The fanservice isn't on the classes where it makes no sense for it to be there.

Compare this:

to this:

Also.

This exists.

*sigh* -.-

Already taking it to the next level, Vashi. D:

It actually is pretty annoying to see sexual related things in the game that people are collecting their artworks for to see the same thing. Like with Ryoma's and Camilla's summer scrambles. -.- But...these features shouldn't really belong in the game!

I'm more focused on how American and European localizers might address the ''Hoshido=Innocent pre-Meiji Japanlike Who Does Nothing Wrong VS Nohr=Invading War Crimes Happy Medieval Europelike'' dynamic. Even if this isn't a case of Japanese nationalism impacting development, I wonder if the Western localizers might figure to tone that element down (like say, rewriting Hoshidan non-playable bosses to be more shady).

Please lets us hope that doesn't happen.

That is why Nohr route punishes you. Spitting on Mikoto's grave and invading a peaceful city. Uh huh!

Edited November 7, 2015 by Princess_Elise

[nocturnal YL]

Okay, let's see:

In Awakening:

One instance where I can think of as NA censorship is the Summer Scramble DLC's Tharja pic, and like some have pointed out before, half-showing that buttcheek is actually somehow shifting focus to that part.

There's also the potential incest part. JP Awakening allows S supports between cousins (shown as husband/wife) or between uncle/niece or aunt/nephew (shown as companions even in the JP version). Unlike Fates, some supports have them explicitly marrying.

The EU version (which AUS is under in terms of localisation, in case you're wondering) introduced further text changes, like editing out the infamous "boingy bits" conversation.

Now, on Fates (JP version):

First off, romance with a potential parent's sibling is completely removed (talking about JP version here). Shigure-fathered grandson Kanna will not have any form of support with Shigure's sister at all.

The conversations between the children have also shifted from outright marrying to just getting into romantic relationship. Kamui is the exception to this.

To see the worst of this game, go read Midoriko's My Room dialogs.

(Non-S) "Why are you petting everyone?"

(After reaching S) "I want to become a grown up quickly..."

(After reaching S) "Do you like people who look a bit like a child?"

And now, my opinions:

First off, what makes ESRB T and what makes ESRB M? Genei Ibun Roku ♯FE is CERO B(12+) and the E3 trailer said "Expected to be rated M", but we've also seen cases before where American ratings can be lower than the Japanese ones (I forgot which ones), making it still possible that Fire Emblem Fates will get a T.

Masahiro Sakurai has also mentioned that the CERO reviewers would look for sexually suggestive parts (which he finds less sensible than ESRB looking out for firearms).

I do expect there will be censorship in certain parts, but like Awakening, they're probably not going to do anything that affects actual game mechanics. That Awakening DLC censorship was made after the game was already out, so it made sense to do a simple change to an image to keep the rating. With Fates, I think it's entirely possible that they would be aiming for a high rating to begin with. They obviously didn't care for the Japanese release, having no problem to have Awakening rated higher than Ribald Tales of the Faith War (although I think it's more likely that CERO didn't bother reading Genealogy's full story) and Fates rated even higher. Makes sense, since Fire Emblem sells to either RPG players or people who already know what Fire Emblem is, who tend to look at the game's contents to make the buying decision as opposed tobasing it on a simple rating, which is aimed at people who don't pay attention to the games' smaller details.

Edited November 7, 2015 by nocturnal YL

[eclipse]

I expect a few edited lines here and there, and that's about it. AGAREST wound up with a T rating, and it includes pics of some of the girls who wear nothing but a bedsheet. I think it would take something like actual nudity before the rating was bumped to M.

[lysander]

Yeah, it pretty much does take actual nudity or actual sex or excessive gore/violence. SMT games, as an example? They only get an M because of Mara. The ones that don't include Mara get a T to match the japanese cero B rating or the european PEGI-12 rating. I dunno if #FE will include Mara or something similar, but it's possible NoA was unsure on that front and predicted an M just in case, to be on the safe side. ESRB has flat-out said that this is the case, as to why persona series and most of the other spin-offs are M but the DeSu games have managed T. Literally just Mara.

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

as far as fe14 goes, i will say this: waifu-fondling will be gone

I'd say that would cut too much content, and also it looks like it would take a lot of effort to remove.

Making the lines less dirty? Sure. Outright removing it? I smell boycotting; I mean, people already made petitions to not remove it.

Plus, as I said before, if Nintendo removes something they also add something new in place of what they removed. What would be in place of skinship?

[Hatsuoki]

I'd say that would cut too much content, and also it looks like it would take a lot of effort to remove.

Making the lines less dirty? Sure. Outright removing it? I smell boycotting; I mean, people already made petitions to not remove it.

Plus, as I said before, if Nintendo removes something they also add something new in place of what they removed. What would be in place of skinship?

I'd be happy if you could just give them gifts instead.

[Jave]

Yeah, it pretty much does take actual nudity or actual sex or excessive gore/violence.

Well, not necessarily. Ace Attorney: Dual Destinies was rated M because of a single scene, but considering how pivotal that scene is, Capcom decided to up the rating and keep the scene intact instead of keeping a T rating and probably having to censor the scene. That scene is supposed to be particularly shocking, so editing it in any way would have reduced the impact, so I'm glad Capcom took the bullet and kept the whole thing in.

I know I'm on the minority here, but I support FE14 getting an M rating if it means we get the game as uncensored as possible. I know some stuff WILL be changed in localization, but I still want to judge the game on its own merits and play it the way it was intended to. If I end up liking it or not, that's up for me to decide.

Also, the Camilla intro cutscene is NOT getting censored. Hyrule Warriors had a cutscene with Cia that's pretty much the exact same thing, and that one was left in. It wasn't even the worst bit of fanservice in the game.

[The DanMan]

I'd say that would cut too much content, and also it looks like it would take a lot of effort to remove.

Making the lines less dirty? Sure. Outright removing it? I smell boycotting; I mean, people already made petitions to not remove it.

Plus, as I said before, if Nintendo removes something they also add something new in place of what they removed. What would be in place of skinship?

And people have made petitions to cancel Metroid Prime: Federation Force and to change the name of a group of squid to a "squad".

The vast majority of people wouldn't care one way or another, some will be glad it's out, and a couple will raise hell because that's what a couple of people can do on the internet. How many people would actually boycott?

It's quite possible they could just dummy it out; alternatively, considering we've got info that the dub was done before E3, the reason localization is taking a while could be because of content being modified/removed. The comment by Chris Pragner that's been mentioned here supports that.

[Medeus]

And people have made petitions to cancel Metroid Prime: Federation Force and to change the name of a group of squid to a "squad".

The vast majority of people wouldn't care one way or another, some will be glad it's out, and a couple will raise hell because that's what a couple of people can do on the internet. How many people would actually boycott?

It's quite possible they could just dummy it out; alternatively, considering we've got info that the dub was done before E3, the reason localization is taking a while could be because of content being modified/removed. The comment by Chris Pragner that's been mentioned here supports that.

Do you have the link to where that was said? I don't remember it, but I'd like to have that information on hand.

[Zerosabers]

Incest will become companioncest.

Really this whole game is a mess of things that I hope get changed between pedophilia and incest and pedoincest.

I really wish they would change some armor designs though, mostly female generals.

[Book of Ereshkigal]

I expect mostly dialogue changes.

But, hey, I don't know what Nintendo thinks, maybe they'll go all out on the graphics side of things too? lol

But yeah, like Awakening, I expect stuff in the supports to be removed/toned down.

Not even sure how they're gonna handle the sibling situation. :B

[Sarthanta]

I can't even guess as to what they're gonna do with Zero. His whole gimmick is to make people feel uncomfortable.

[sylveonzoroark]

I can't even guess as to what they're gonna do with Zero. His whole gimmick is to make people feel uncomfortable.

I hope they don't pull a Henry and completely change his personality :c

[lysander]

Well, not necessarily. Ace Attorney: Dual Destinies was rated M because of a single scene, but considering how pivotal that scene is, Capcom decided to up the rating and keep the scene intact instead of keeping a T rating and probably having to censor the scene. That scene is supposed to be particularly shocking, so editing it in any way would have reduced the impact, so I'm glad Capcom took the bullet and kept the whole thing in.

I know I'm on the minority here, but I support FE14 getting an M rating if it means we get the game as uncensored as possible. I know some stuff WILL be changed in localization, but I still want to judge the game on its own merits and play it the way it was intended to. If I end up liking it or not, that's up for me to decide.

Also, the Camilla intro cutscene is NOT getting censored. Hyrule Warriors had a cutscene with Cia that's pretty much the exact same thing, and that one was left in. It wasn't even the worst bit of fanservice in the game.

Actually, in the case of Dual Destinies, it was exactly because of excessive blood and gore like I mentioned as a case for M rating. They felt the blood/scene in general was too realistic in the same way that Mara is too realistic of a penis compared to, say, Incubus or the various vagina shaped demons that still pass for T rating even with their demon compendium descriptions.

[PuffPuff]

Well, not necessarily. Ace Attorney: Dual Destinies was rated M because of a single scene, but considering how pivotal that scene is, Capcom decided to up the rating and keep the scene intact instead of keeping a T rating and probably having to censor the scene. That scene is supposed to be particularly shocking, so editing it in any way would have reduced the impact, so I'm glad Capcom took the bullet and kept the whole thing in.

I know I'm on the minority here, but I support FE14 getting an M rating if it means we get the game as uncensored as possible. I know some stuff WILL be changed in localization, but I still want to judge the game on its own merits and play it the way it was intended to. If I end up liking it or not, that's up for me to decide.

Also, the Camilla intro cutscene is NOT getting censored. Hyrule Warriors had a cutscene with Cia that's pretty much the exact same thing, and that one was left in. It wasn't even the worst bit of fanservice in the game.

For such trauma...

Case V

that Athena had to go through as a kid that Simon protected her for years.

yes

*Giggle*

Especially, Lana running from a herd of Cuucoo's.

Glad they've kept that in...too. :D

[The DanMan]

Do you have the link to where that was said? I don't remember it, but I'd like to have that information on hand.

It wasn't anything directly official; here's the post from the support thread.

They already did. My friend ran into Owain's VA in the lobby of one of the Anime Expo hotels (and she got a selfie with him while half-dressed in her Camilla cosplay) and he said they already finished with all the voice acting work for the game.

No word on any features though, just that they already finished recorded everything.

So it may not have been before E3, but it wasn't too long after. It's not the most verifiable of posts, but it's something.

[Melissa]

Two words: Censor bars

[Dark Paladin X]

Well, not necessarily. Ace Attorney: Dual Destinies was rated M because of a single scene, but considering how pivotal that scene is, Capcom decided to up the rating and keep the scene intact instead of keeping a T rating and probably having to censor the scene. That scene is supposed to be particularly shocking, so editing it in any way would have reduced the impact, so I'm glad Capcom took the bullet and kept the whole thing in.

I know I'm on the minority here, but I support FE14 getting an M rating if it means we get the game as uncensored as possible. I know some stuff WILL be changed in localization, but I still want to judge the game on its own merits and play it the way it was intended to. If I end up liking it or not, that's up for me to decide.

Also, the Camilla intro cutscene is NOT getting censored. Hyrule Warriors had a cutscene with Cia that's pretty much the exact same thing, and that one was left in. It wasn't even the worst bit of fanservice in the game.

Both Fire Emblem Fates and Ace Attorney Dual Destinities are two completely different games and Capcom and Nintendo are two different companies with different business policies. I mean, was there ANY game that Nintendo released in America that got a ESRB rating of M? And besides, while the previous Fire Emblem games did explore pretty dark themes (racism, social isolation, and political corrpution were the major themes for the Tellius series), I don't see anything in Fire Emblem Fates that would warrant a Rated M game (unless if someone wants to write something like rape and have some disturbing rape scene in some future Fire Emblem game, then that would definitely warrant some censorship or a Rated M rating).

Also, as many people mentioned, censorship and localization are two completely different things. Censorship will fall more into the lines of barring people seeing a particular scene or accessing a particular gameplay feature. While it is true some localization does involve censorship (i.e. 4Kids), localization means making adjustments to the characters' dialogue and personality or highlighting specific features to fit more into the lines of your intended audience. A good example is the localization of League of Legends in Japan when they were highlighting the voice actors. The gameplay features of League of Legends aren't going to change in Japan, but Riot Games highlight the "cute" champions (i.e. Ziggs, Teemo, Annie, Lulu, and Jinx) and the Japanese aesthetic ones (i.e. Master Yi and Yasuo) because Riot Games know the Japanese audience are more into the "kawaii" aspect of the characters.

Likwise, the localization team for Fire Emblem: Awakening altered some of Ricken's and Nowi's dialogue to make sound a bit more mature because lolis and shoutas have a much more negative reception in America than in Japan (particularly when you have an option to marry them). This also went to the extent of their choice of voice actors to make Nowi and Ricken more teen sounding (and keep in mind that casting voice actresses into lolis are extremely difficult for anime and video games alike).

[Jave]

I mean, was there ANY game that Nintendo released in America that got a ESRB rating of M?

Yes. Bayonetta 2 (owned by SEGA and developed by Platinum, but fully funded and published by Nintendo) and Fatal Frame (developed by Tecmo, but it's owned and published by Nintendo).