What I personally like about Nohr's story over Hoshido...

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

I like Nohr's story for trying to do something different that hasn't been tackled before in the series. I just really hate how people call Kamui a spineless coward (no he's displaying PERSEVERANCE) for putting up with Garon, despite the fact that he's not doing it because he's worried about his life he's doing it because SOMEONE has to be in Nohr to forge a better path for it, essentially being a light within the darkness that isn't trying to be swallowed up by it. Nohr!Kamui actually spares Hoshido lives, but so far in the translation videos (thanks to Linkmstr) there hasn't been a single mention of Hosh!Kamui sparing any Nohrian soldiers (aside from key characters) and that's just a really huge moral flaw from a character that is from both sides. I mean like it or not Kamui will be executed on the spot if he openly speaks out against Garon (Leo stops Kamui from speaking against him in chapter 14) and wouldn't have the power to do so against an entire nation, I mean come on this isn't some power fantasy and even Xander will side with Garon hence why unfortunately Aqua's plan to put Garon on the Hoshido throne to show his true persona is required. Xander has known Garon the longest out of all the siblings and has more of a connection to him and just out right saying that Garon before him is nothing but a monster without proof is treason in his eyes. Heck Birthright pretty much shows you the extent of Xander's loyalty of being a Camus and how Elise never fights Kamui and eventually sides with him because she doesn't have much of a connection to Garon due to not knowing him originally being gentle father like how the rest of the siblings have. Also a lot of people take issue with Kamui regretting joining Nohr, no this is a good thing as he realizes that he's on the side of the aggressor in the war and why his conversation in making Suzukaze join his cause makes for a good and noble reason. Playing from the Camus perspective on this path makes for an interesting take which I can't say for the opposite for the other being just the same old same old story from the Marth perspective.

Edited November 17, 2015 by AbsoluteZer0Nova

[Ryo]

I mean like it or not Kamui will be executed on the spot if he openly speaks out against Garon (Leo stops Kamui from speaking against him in chapter 14) and wouldn't have the power to do so against an entire nation, I mean come on this isn't some power fantasy and even Xander will side with Garon hence why unfortunately Aqua's plan to put Garon on the Hoshido throne to show his true persona is required.

No, it definitely isn't. The writers twisted the story and characters to make it seems like a requirement. The entirety of Conquest and Revelation (and in a lesser extent, Birthright) have to rely on a random plot contrivance (the curse) to exist while also using the same convenience to move itself forwards (not by the characters' own planning and actions). Even if we acknowledge the curse as a legitimate plot device, logically there are many alternatives to work around it, which surprisingly never happened in the narrative. Aqua, the Awakening trio, Lilith and whoever else knows about the truth should have worked together or at least try to do something before and during the event of the game to guide people to this truth. Aqua should have dragged Kamui and the siblings to IK when she had the chance, and show all of them the crystal.

The fact that you even need a slime monster to take Garon's place for the siblings to "safely" turn their back on him is another symptom of lazy writing. What if the slime monster never existed, and it was Garon all along? What would the Nohrian siblings do? What would Kamui and Aqua do when there's no monster to show to them?

Edited November 17, 2015 by Ryo

[NekoKnight]

I suppose I should play the devil's advocate for a moment, so I don't sound too unfair. I liked that Kamui regretted having to kill Hoshidans and tried his best to spare enemies. A pinch of despair is good and a story shouldn't be a unbroken string of victories for the hero.

And now for the ice burg that sunk our beautiful ship. Aqua's plan, that Kamui agreed with without even considering other options, is patently absurd. The best way to stop Garon is to burn an innocent country to the ground and THEN tell people Garon is actually an imposter they shouldn't be following? Had Aqua and Kamui tried to convince the Nohrian siblings to travel to IK and tell them the truth (the full truth, that Aqua hides even when she had the chance to talk about it), maybe the entire invasion could have been avoided. The Awakening Trio and Lilith are also complicit in this massive communication failure.

And then they dragged Suzukaze through the mud by convincing him to help with the invasion of his own country.

No, it definitely isn't. The writers twisted the story and characters to make it seems like a requirement. The entirety of Conquest and Revelation have to rely on a random plot contrivance (the curse) to exist while also using the same convenience to move itself forwards (not by the characters' own planning and actions).

Don't forget the arguably worse plot contrivance that a magic chair in Hoshido (and a one use exploding crystal ball) are the only ways to reveal the true villain.

Edited November 17, 2015 by NekoKnight

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

No, it definitely isn't. The writers twisted the story and characters to make it seems like a requirement. The entirety of Conquest and Revelation have to rely on a random plot contrivance (the curse) to exist while also using the same convenience to move itself forwards (not by the characters' own planning and actions). Even if we acknowledge the curse as a legitimate plot device, logically there are many alternatives to work around it, which surprisingly never happened in the narrative. Aqua, the Awakening trio, Lilith and whoever else knows about the truth should have worked together or at least try to do something before and during the event of the game to guide people to this truth. Aqua should have dragged Kamui and the siblings to IK when she had the chance, and show all of them the crystal.

The fact that you even need a slime monster to take Garon's place for the siblings to "safely" turn their back on him is another symptom of lazy writing. What if the slime monster never existed, and it was Garon all along? What would the Nohrian siblings do? What would Kamui and Aqua do when there's no monster to show to them?

As I said before Xander needs proof before his eyes not through some crystal ball that shows a vision of what his father truly looks like (he would just view it as some illusionary trick in the same manner of what Zorua does in impersonating Izana) and the rest of the Nohr siblings don't like Garon's actions neither, but it's still their father, so they should just go ahead with betraying and kill him (Leo doesn't completely join Kamui in chapter 18 of Birthright because he still holds love for his father)? Xander even with Elise's death still stands with Garon. Could the story have been more interesting if it wasn't a slime Garon? Yes, but just because you don't like this plot device doesn't automatically make its story bad.

Edited November 17, 2015 by AbsoluteZer0Nova

[Ryo]

As I said before Xander needs proof before his eyes not through some crystal ball that shows a vision of what his father truly looks like and the rest of the Nohr siblings don't like Garon's actions neither, but it's still their father, so they should just go ahead with betraying and kill him? Xander even with Elise's death still stands with Garon. Could the story have been more interesting if it wasn't a slime Garon? Yes, but just because you don't like this plot device doesn't automatically make its story bad.

Xander being unlikely to trust the crystal excuses Aqua not even trying? There's also Kamui, Leo, Camilla, Elise. She doesn't even want to let Kamui follow her into IK. This is not to mention that the story and supports never shed a light on what kind of person the real Garon was, only hinting here and there. So how are we even going to judge Xander's actions as being convincing or not? Some could even argue that he's being stubborn just for the sake of being stubborn.

And yes, it does make the story bad. The plot itself determines that you will have to kill Garon no matter which side you choose, this is a fact. How do you achieve this objective in Conquest? By telling your siblings: "Hey, this dude is not actually your dad, you can safely kill him now." The siblings (even not counting Xander, there are also others) never got to develop from their own inner dilemma and fear, because the story gave them an easier and immediate way out, not to mention anti-climatic because this is like, 2 chapters from endgame. None of the main characters get to do or think anything interesting in the entire game (which is a sharp contrast with their roles in Birthright). They don't have any determination or resolution to their own problems.

Don't forget the arguably worse plot contrivance that a magic chair in Hoshido (and a one use exploding crystal ball) are the only ways to reveal the true villain.

I actually "like" the golden throne in the way that it's hinted earlier on and not something that pops out of nowhere (like the crystal). Still a silly plot contrivance regardless.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Ryo

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

Xander being unlikely to trust the crystal excuses Aqua not even trying?

Then I suppose Aqua should get executed by Xander on the spot too then is that it? Aqua as should any one who tries to accuse a father to a son as a monster isn't going to lead to a believing case and would just lead to a lot of animosity towards them for doing so.

Edited November 17, 2015 by AbsoluteZer0Nova

[Ryo]

Then what was she getting the crystal for? Also you're forgetting that she also gives it to Leo in Birthright.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Ryo

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

Then what was she getting the crystal for?

Aqua: If it's you (Kamui) I may be able to reveal the truth about him. Link

Edited November 17, 2015 by AbsoluteZer0Nova

[Ryo]

Aqua: If it's you (Kamui) I may be able to reveal the truth about him. Link

Please read my edit above.

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

Please read my edit above.

The difference there is that for one Aqua has the whole Hoshido army and Kamui to protect her if Leo even tries to pull a Xander (something which she wouldn't get away with on the Nohr side like I said before), she's gives it to him for him to make his own mind up on whether or not it's real or fake in deciding what to do hence onward and Leo still is neutral otherwise he would have join Kamui right there and then thus still have doubts, but decides to give Kamui something to help them because he now doesn't want to see Kamui die.

Edited November 17, 2015 by AbsoluteZer0Nova

[NekoKnight]

I actually "like" the golden throne in the way that it's hinted earlier on and not something that pops out of nowhere (like the crystal). Still a silly plot contrivance regardless.

Foreshadowing is good (granted, the throne was such a throw away scene in the early game, that I wouldn't blame the player for forgetting about it), but I'd consider it's specific usage too convenient. It's a chair that shows the true character of anyone who sits on it... Hey, that'd be perfect to reveal the water familiar impersonating our batshit crazy king!

Something occurred to me. The Awakening trio aren't just random mooks in Nohr, they're the direct retainers of the Nohrian royal children. Surely they would have the trust of Leon, Camilla and Marx to be able to convince them there is more to the conflict that meets the eye. Y'know, had they bothered. They would at least be with Kamui long enough to figure out he's the guy they're looking for.

Then I suppose Aqua should get executed by Xander on the spot too then is that it? Aqua as should any one who tries to accuse a father to a son as a monster isn't going to lead to a believing case and would just lead to a lot of animosity towards them for doing so.

The difference there is that for one Aqua has the whole Hoshido army and Kamui to protect her if Leo even tries to pull a Xander (something which she wouldn't get away with on the Nohr side like I said before), she's gives it to him for him to make his own mind up on whether or not it's real or fake in deciding what to do hence onward.

Is "the Nohrian siblings will probably murder me in cold blood if I even suggest that maybe Garon isn't who they think he is" really the excuse you want to offer?

Oh...Marx loves Garon so much, he threatens to execute his own brother/sister (Kamui) over perceived slander against Garon. And this is after Kamui aided the invasion of his homeland and has been nothing but loyal. Maybe Marx isn't such a good guy after all.

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

Is "the Nohrian siblings will probably murder me in cold blood if I even suggest that maybe Garon isn't who they think he is" really the excuse you want to offer?

Oh...Marx loves Garon so much, he threatens to execute his own brother/sister (Kamui) over perceived slander against Garon. And this is after Kamui aided the invasion of his homeland and has been nothing but loyal. Maybe Marx isn't such a good guy after all.

Well sadly that does apparently happen before they all are about to enter the throne room. Xander will execute Kamui if he's wrong about the accusation. Also don't underestimate Leo seeing as how he was about to kill Zorua until Kamui saved him all the more reason why Kamui is glad Leo wasn't an enemy when he chose Nohr and the same can even apply to Camilla if Aqua tries showing her. Aqua could show just Elise, but that's not a "ideal" person to show about Garon.

I really think that there's been too much jumping the gun on Nohr's story despite the translations not being fully out.

Edited November 17, 2015 by AbsoluteZer0Nova

[Ryo]

If her only intention is to unmask Garon no matter the cost, then she didn't even need to get the crystal in the first place. All she has to do is to go along with their plan of invading Hoshido, then Garon will automatically sits himself on the throne. Then she can reveal him to anyone.

My point still stands that conquering Hoshido is not a necessary plot, and is only a result of the writers twisting the narratives, because Aqua and the people who know the truths had many chance to take actions (or try to) before and during the event of the game.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Ryo

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

If her only intention is to unmask Garon no matter the cost, then she didn't even need to get the crystal in the first place. All she has to do is to go along with their plan of invading Hoshido, then Garon will automatically sits himself on the throne. Then she can reveal him to anyone.

Actually it's very plausible that she did intend on doing just that as she is very secretive until Kamui follows her in chapter 15. She didn't even tell Kamui that she was the songtress. It's only in that chapter that she starts revealing secrets as Kamui would want some answers.

Edit: I'm a bit busy so I'll be back later.

Edited November 17, 2015 by AbsoluteZer0Nova

[NekoKnight]

I just watched the chapter 27 scene again and Leon and Camilla specifically ask Kamui why he never told them about fake Garon before and his answer wasn't "I didn't think you'd believe me", Kamui and Aqua just said something (inferred to be the curse) prevented them from doing so...except they wouldn't have worry about that had they just convinced them to go to IK before.

Actually it's very plausible that she did intend on doing just that as she is very secretive until Kamui follows her in chapter 15. She didn't even tell Kamui that she was the songtress. It's only in that chapter that she starts revealing secrets as Kamui would want some answers.

This theory actually makes sense, but it paints Aqua in a very negative light. By her own choice, she'd have been keeping secrets (even from Kamui) that could have stopped the war early on but she chose the least efficient way that lead to the deaths of who knows how many people. Does Aqua not care about the country that she grew up in or her siblings she had to leave behind? Kind of makes a dark foil for Kamui, when you think about it...

Edited November 17, 2015 by NekoKnight

[Maritisa]

And now for the ice burg that sunk our beautiful ship. Aqua's plan, that Kamui agreed with without even considering other options, is patently absurd. The best way to stop Garon is to burn an innocent country to the ground and THEN tell people Garon is actually an imposter they shouldn't be following? Had Aqua and Kamui tried to convince the Nohrian siblings to travel to IK and tell them the truth (the full truth, that Aqua hides even when she had the chance to talk about it), maybe the entire invasion could have been avoided. The Awakening Trio and Lilith are also complicit in this massive communication failure.

And then they dragged Suzukaze through the mud by convincing him to help with the invasion of his own country.

Don't forget the arguably worse plot contrivance that a magic chair in Hoshido (and a one use exploding crystal ball) are the only ways to reveal the true villain.

I am so very much not excited for this game, as one who plays for the story... The sheer amount of stupid contrived plot devices, combined with tonal disparity in mechanics, makes Fates sound more like a bad fanfiction written by a 12 year-old, rather than something that was APPARENTLY written (And butchered, obviously) by a professional well-known writer.

I wish FE actually did just die at Awakening. We've had lousy plot devices before (Blood Pact anyone?) but honestly nothing has been as bad as what Fates is turning out to be. How do you even fuck something up this much?

Edited November 17, 2015 by Ritisa

[nocturnal YL]

While I don't outright hate Nohr's story, I'd say it doesn't make it clear enough what the story is trying to do. I've seen the following faults:

- Kamui alone can't do anything against Garon's army? Maybe. Kamui with the siblings can't do that? Doubt it. Look at Chapter 26. You call that Nohr's proper army? They should have revolted sooner.

- Kamui alone may not be able to stand against Marx and Leon. But Kamui and Leon could have stood against Marx, or even force him to follow them. And Leon is reasonable, as we can see.

- Kamui could also have revealed the Invisible Kingdom anyway, and get killed in the process. This should convince at least some of the siblings. If Izana can do it, why not Kamui.

I don't know. Maybe the plot is still valid. But either way, I think Kamui didn't try hard enough.

I haven't played Hoshido, so I can't comment on that.

On why Luna, Odin and Lazward don't talk about IK, it's because they don't know Kamui is the one they're looking for... I guess. You'd have thought being the only one who can transform to a dragon would be an obvious hint. (But then again, they've seen their fare share of shapeshifters, so...)

​

Edited November 17, 2015 by nocturnal YL

[Ryo]

On why Luna, Odin and Lazward don't talk about IK, it's because they don't know Kamui is the one they're looking for... I guess. You'd have thought being the only one who can transform to a dragon would be an obvious hint. (But then again, they've seen their fare share of non-royal shapeshifters, so...)​

Lilith could have told them when she was in Nohr. They blatantly know one another. Why they never communicated properly is beyond me.

[Auro Astum]

If her only intention is to unmask Garon no matter the cost, then she didn't even need to get the crystal in the first place. All she has to do is to go along with their plan of invading Hoshido, then Garon will automatically sits himself on the throne. Then she can reveal him to anyone.

My point still stands that conquering Hoshido is not a necessary plot, and is only a result of the writers twisting the narratives, because Aqua and the people who know the truths had many chance to take actions (or try to) before and during the event of the game.

Didn't she try to assassinate/somethingish Garon through her black-dress dance? That was the impression I was under when I played through that chapter (untranslated).

[NekoKnight]

On why Luna, Odin and Lazward don't talk about IK, it's because they don't know Kamui is the one they're looking for... I guess. You'd have thought being the only one who can transform to a dragon would be an obvious hint. (But then again, they've seen their fare share of shapeshifters, so...)

Garou and Spirit foxes are existent species, dragons are presumably extinct. If a guy with a holy sword and the ability to change into a water dragon isn't a dead giveaway of his specialness, I don't know what is. XD

I am so very much not excited for this game, as one who plays for the story... The sheer amount of stupid contrived plot devices, combined with tonal disparity in mechanics, makes Fates sound more like a bad fanfiction written by a 12 year-old, rather than something that was APPARENTLY written (And butchered, obviously) by a professional well-known writer.

I wish FE actually did just die at Awakening. We've had lousy plot devices before (Blood Pact anyone?) but honestly nothing has been as bad as what Fates is turning out to be. How do you even fuck something up this much?

I don't think the series should have ended at Awakening, although it did mark a decline in writing quality. I really lament that the story was not good because I love games with good stories, but the gameplay improvements are noticeable and show SOME people on the team are working hard.

God damn, what an amazing story it could have been.

[Ryo]

Didn't she try to assassinate/somethingish Garon through her black-dress dance? That was the impression I was under when I played through that chapter (untranslated).

She didn't actually trying to assassinate him as much as turning him back to normal, but failed.

Back to the topic of Aqua. Why does she need to head to IK? Because she needs to get the crystal ball. Why does she need it when she can just push the war and lets Garon reveal himself? Because she expects someone to believe her when she shows it to them, and stops Garon in Nohr. Even if Kamui or Leo is the only people who can see the crystal, she still needs other people to know the truth, otherwise such few people can't possibly do anything about it. If she had planned to lead Garon to Hoshido's throne all along, why bother with the crystal?

Edited November 17, 2015 by Ryo

[nocturnal YL]

Garou and Spirit foxes are existent species, dragons are presumably extinct. If a guy with a holy sword and the ability to change into a water dragon isn't a dead giveaway of his specialness, I don't know what is. XD

Maybe they have seen too many dragons (of a different kind, but still) at home that they don't think Kamui is any more special than them. Heck, they could have assumed Kamui is Nowi and Nah's distant ancestor.

Or they could have belived that this is a thing Hoshidan royals do. They haven't met them up close in the Nohr route.

​

... Well, who am I kidding? Even I don't buy this theory myself!

[Raccoon844]

I don't think the series should have ended at Awakening, although it did mark a decline in writing quality. I really lament that the story was not good because I love games with good stories, but the gameplay improvements are noticeable and show SOME people on the team are working hard.

God damn, what an amazing story it could have been.

Indeed, even though Fire Emblem has always had some...writing problems, it has always shown potential. (I'm looking at YOU, Radiant Dawn.)

While i have kept myself in the dark about the game itself mostly, i can see the glaring problems. Personally i just think that Aqua has problems with trusting people just until the failed "dancing" scene. Seriously, why keep them in the dark when you had the perfect chance to tell them or SHOW them via the chasm that leads to Touma. And seeing that the IKTrio doesn't even connect the dots is just a slap in the face to me honestly. (Seriously, the guy is named Kamui/Corrin and he can TURN INTO A DRAGON.)

Edited November 17, 2015 by Raccoon844

[Ryo]

Something just occurs to me. It's not like without the siblings, Kamui is utterly alone and doesn't have any other forces that can back them up. The Ice Tribe is obviously rebelling. Then we have Chevalier. And probably some occasional assistance from Hoshido (then Suzukaze will have a legit reason for why he's in Nohr). It's just that the writers aren't willing to take the story in that direction, but trying to push the war with Hoshido instead. Though instead of relying on politics and the characters' actions, it is done via a series of contrived plot devices, which is one of the major things I have a problem with.

I don't deny that the plot has some potential (albeit on paper) and could turn out great if not for those glaring weak points that people have been pointing out for months now. I also want to make it clear that I don't have any issue with anyone who likes it, even if I don't necessarily agree with some of their reasoning.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Ryo

[NekoKnight]

Something just occurs to me. It's not like without the siblings, Kamui is utterly alone and doesn't have any other forces that can back them up.

I think that's where a lot of the accusations of Kamui being spineless come from. In any other Fire Emblem, the lord would seek out allies (ie be an active player in their own destiny) if they found themselves surrounded by enemies. Kamui follows orders he knows are wrong and the most he can do is damage control. It's not even excusable considering he had the option to side with Hoshido.

That's why I wish they framed the story as Nohr needing Hoshido's resources to survive so the moral quandary would switch from "I'm on the bad guy side but I don't wanna be a bad guy! (then you shouldn't have chosen them, dummy)" to "This isn't the moral thing and I hate doing it but it's necessary".