What I personally like about Nohr's story over Hoshido...

[Verdande]

What really grinds my gears is how transparently evil Garon is but Marx flip flops between trusting/supporting Kamui and treating him like a potential traitor. As far as Kamui knows, Garon tried to kill Kamui twice before the route split and as soon as he returns, Garon tries to get him killed yet again. Garon sends Kamui on what everyone knows is a suicide mission and then cackles about how much he'll enjoy having Kamui suffer... and he does this all in front of Marx! Does that not set off any warning bells, Marx? Well it must have meant something, because Elise, Leon and Marx go behind Garin's back to support Kamui. But by the end of the game, when Kamui goes as far as supporting the invasion of his own homeland, Marx has the audacity to question his loyalty and threatens to execute him if he's lying. Fuck off Marx, I deserve a better brother than you.

The fact that it took Garon literally being a monster, instead of being a morally reprehensible human being, for Marx to turn on him is an awful failing in the story.

I was so let down with how Marx was handled on both routes. Though I feel his actions on Birthright Chapter 26 are even worse, there was absolutely no reason why he, his youngest sister, his retainers or the soldiers under his command had to die. Leon and Elise (and Camilla too, though only because she would have been killed otherwise) had the sense to get out of Hoshido's way to end the war (and Ryoma had promised that Nohr would get the resources they needed and then some) and yet he insists on fighting anyway because?

Elise on her deathbed begs him to stop fighting too, he should have realised that Leon and Camilla don't deserve to lose two of their siblings and stood down. But no, he doesn't and pretty much decided to leave Leon and Camilla with the fallout. All to uphold "loyalty" to one of the worst mustache-twirling cartoon villains I've come across. Why did anyone think that was an acceptable story to tell?

Edited November 18, 2015 by Verdande

[Sunwoo]

Where are you getting the indication that Hinoka values Kamui more than them? You have to remember that Kamui is the sibling that she trained and fought for in the first place and even then in chapter 11 she is fully prepared to stop him having realize Kamui's resolve. Buildings can always be rebuilt so they probably care less about such a thing and even Nohr is helping with reconstructing it, Hinoka and Sakura forgive Kamui because it couldn't be helped due to the circumstances had Kamui decided to tell Garon he won't kill Ryoma then simply both him for treason and Ryoma will die thus Hinoka and Sakura losing another sibling and Takumi's situtation was probably already explained to them by Aqua. Also no Takumi isn't he wants to group every single Nohrian as monsters for the actions of some doing misdeeds.That's not sane that's bigotry.

I found a nice little source called the "Fates War Table". In Hinoka's chapter, when Kamui fights her and after they defeat her, the impression I get is that she still wants Kamui back. She still has that "dream" of getting them back. She is either trying to appeal to Kamui's emotions, or at least not being angry at them for betraying Hoshido. At what point do you finally put your foot down and say "Enough. They betrayed me, and I'm done being sad." Here's the kicker: Hinoka at one point says, "Sakura is still alive?!" So does that mean she thought her little sister (and by extension her little brother) were dead until she was told otherwise by Camilla? And she doesn't even seem to be mad at Kamui that they may be dead? Hinoka is the worst big sister to Sakura and Takumi.

Buildings can be rebuilt, but the invasion of Hoshido did not just cause buildings to be destroyed. It took lives, lives of Hoshidan soldiers. Including her brothers. And lost lives are a LOT harder to forgive. Sakura witnessed Garon's troops basically slaughter her surrendered soldiers, including quite possibly her retainers.

Also, even if Aqua explained Takumi's situation to the sisters, do you really think people who lost loved ones are rational??? No. Angry people aren't rational. People who lost their loved ones, and especially people who lost loved ones to violence are not rational. Takumi also falls under both. He wants to group Nohrians as monsters for the misdeeds of some. He's also a young, angry person who lost both his mother and father to Nohr and he is not thinking rationally. I'm not saying that it excuses him, but looking from his POV you can at least SEE why he would feel that way whether you agree with him or not. And Kamui's very presence in Hoshido lead to Mikoto's death. And right after Mikoto dies, Kamui betrays them for Nohr, the country that in the eyes of the Hoshidans killed Mikoto. That's like a double betrayal right there, and you should at least be able to see it from their side even if you don't agree.

You know what the problem with your assumptions are? You assume that everyone will, or should, react rationally in the face of loss. Very few people react rationally when they lose something important. Anger is a part of loss.

He is literally driven by rage against Corrin, Aqau and painting anything Nohr witht he same brush and both Corrin and Takumi apologize to each other by the end. Takumi for the way he acted and Corrin for how things didn't turn out how he wished them to do so. Unless you've got some evidence that Corrin is seriously being insincere during the game you're just posting fanfiction.

First of all, you can make your point without sounding like so much of an ass. "You're just posting fanfiction," how arrogant. As if your interpretations are any more valid than mine? No, I think not. Second of all, yes, he is driven by rage. Yes, I agree that this can be a fault and hatred is a fault for Takumi.

The problem is, he is also justified in feeling that rage because anger and emotions are not rational. From his and the Hoshidan people's POVs, Kamui led to the death of their mother and queen and then betrayed them for Nohr, the country that they believe caused her death, when they were at their most emotionally vulnerable. And regardless of his hatred, he is still RIGHT in that Kamui left Hoshido for Nohr, took part in the invasion of Hoshido, and killed Hoshidans in the process of doing so. And why does Takumi have to apologize to Kamui for being right about that part?

[Alazen]

Takumi is a victim of Fates' Kamui worship. Even in the Path where Kamui sticks with the invading war crimes happy Europelike the game still tries to spin Kamui as this super charismatic paragon. And so, Takumi gets the WoW Raid Boss treatment in that he's a pawn of an unremarkable antagonist.

Again, Path of Radiance did this better. Shinon might be a racist drunkard, but at least PoR didn't reveal he was being corrupted by Yune or whoever into fighting Ike.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Alazen

[JupiterKnight]

Lilith could have told them when she was in Nohr. They blatantly know one another. Why they never communicated properly is beyond me.

They don't actually. Lilith kept herself in the shadow (Her portrait was always shadowed) to keep her identity hidden. Only Hydra realized who she was and sent them away before they could find out.

As for those mentioning the shapeshifting dragon deal, the story itself does mention that Hoshido and even Nohr family members in the past have been born with potent dragon blood strong enough to turn them into dragons. I suppose this was their own way to justify Garon's appearance as a dragon on Birthright during the final batle.

[Ryo]

They don't actually. Lilith kept herself in the shadow (Her portrait was always shadowed) to keep her identity hidden. Only Hydra realized who she was and sent them away before they could find out.

She has seen them though. And she obviously knows what they're in Nohr for.

Also, I've always assumed the shadow effect was to make her more mysterious/sinister. I don't recall it being explicitly mentioned anywhere that she was hiding herself, unlike the Future Past Morgans.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Ryo

[arvilino]

First of all, you can make your point without sounding like so much of an ass. "You're just posting fanfiction," how arrogant. As if your interpretations are any more valid than mine? No, I think not. Second of all, yes, he is driven by rage. Yes, I agree that this can be a fault and hatred is a fault for Takumi.

The problem is, he is also justified in feeling that rage because anger and emotions are not rational. From his and the Hoshidan people's POVs, Kamui led to the death of their mother and queen and then betrayed them for Nohr, the country that they believe caused her death, when they were at their most emotionally vulnerable. And regardless of his hatred, he is still RIGHT in that Kamui left Hoshido for Nohr, took part in the invasion of Hoshido, and killed Hoshidans in the process of doing so. And why does Takumi have to apologize to Kamui for being right about that part?

He's justified for maybe chapter 5 and 10, but he ends up being spared three times saying the exact same thing everytime, that man or woman who's sparing everyone all the time is for some reason a barbarian because of one event he has up to three times to mull over in the game. To say its a reasonable reaction is just ridiculous although its likely due to Anankos's influence but still something Takumi is at fault for.

Your fanfiction is the claim that Corrin goes to fight Hoshido with absolutely no consideration to the country, a stretch like that is ridiculous unless followed by "I think" because you're directly tying this into the idea that Takumi shouldn't apologise. as a result you're trying to twist the story to the point that Corrin's motivation literally like he or she was out to get Hoshido in the first place which is in exact opposition to the plot. You can't say "How arrogant" for me calling it fanfiction when you're suggesting something that has no basis other than the results of Corrin was actively trying avoid, promises against and even apologizes for multiple times for.

[PuffPuff]

But the reason why the Hoshidans try to kill Kamui and Aqua in the Revelations route when they're trying to tell them that there's a true enemy is because the pair attacked Hoshidan soldiers and then ran off. A lot of their skepticism is fueled by that. On the Nohr route, Kamui would need to convince his siblings who he/she's sided with and been loyal to. That's a completely different situation and one where people will definitely be more receptive. Additionally, two of the people who he/she'd have to convince are Elise and Camilla, who worship the ground he/she walks on and they're not close to their father. Garon is also stated to be pretty much nothing like how he was before. IIRC, on the Hoshido route, Aqua also has the crystal ball and gives it to Leon, right? If so, there's no reason why she shouldn't show the crystal ball to the siblings, especially since she doesn't know somebody is watching. Also Aqua's song can apparently calm people down, so at the very least, she's not totally at risk of getting her head cut off.

Also in Revelations, Aqua is able to convince Kamui to go jump off the cliff to get to the Invisible Kingdom, which is how he/she learns about it in the first place. I really don't think it would take a lot to get Kamui to follow her to the lake. You could say it was to "hide" but that's a pretty lame excuse, considering how from Kamui's perspective, it would look extremely suicidal to jump off the cliff. If Kamui can be convinced to do something suicidal to "hide", he can certainly be talked into following her into a lake. It's not like Kamui's consistently written to begin with, since he's willing to stand up to Garon to save Kaze and Rinka at the beginning of the game but immediately submits to Garon later.

This also begs the question of why Aqua was going into the Invisible Kingdom on her own in the first place. I guess it was to get the crystal ball maybe? Though it again begs the question of why she wouldn't show the ball to both Leon and Kamui, because even if the rest of the siblings wouldn't believe Kamui, they'd be much more likely to listen to Leon. I'm ignoring the crystal ball and the curse being really dumb and contrived plot devices by the way.

By the way, the plan Aqua comes up with can't even be called a plan since it's basically the same thing as doing nothing: Garon invades successfully, he sits on the throne, and reveals he's a water monster. Isn't the whole reason they want to stop Garon in the first place because they want to prevent Hoshido from being destroyed? Good going, fuckers.

Additionally, why would Garon go out of his way to make Kamui suffer or get him killed? It seems like it would be much smarter if he was instead friendly towards him and his children, even if it is just an act. Kamui's established to be rather strong and proves himself useful to Garon multiple times; that's someone he'd want to make full use of and whose loyalty he'd value highly. It is much less likely that you will be betrayed if you are loved instead of loathed.

On another note, if Nohr's story was Kamui launching a rebellion from the inside and actively fighting their soldiers, it would still be different from the norm since a)the goal would be reform and b)he/she would mainly be fighting their countrymen. That alone has some moral ambiguity and could make Kamui feel conflicted, but especially if it's emphasized that the soldiers are people too, with families and differing opinions on what Nohr is doing. Though it's not like the invasion plot is a bad idea, because Nohr has legitimate reasons to invade Hoshido, which is because they're short on food and their lands are barren while Hoshido is lush and fertile. Kamui would have legitimate reasons to go along with the invasion because he'd want to ensure the Nohrian people's survival and puts their lives at a higher priority than the Hoshidans. Instead, we get a situation where Kamui regrets going with Nohr, but since the writers couldn't think of a normal reason why Kamui would go along with it, they instead come up with poorly written plot devices like the crystal ball and the curse so Kamui can go along with the invasion and still look good, which is one of the flaws of the Blood Pact in RD and why it was so awful.

I think the real question is why doesn't Hoshido know about Nohr's resource problems when they have spies in there and constant contact. It's perfectly reasonable if Hoshido doesn't want to give out resources to Nohr, especially since the conflict mirrors the Lenster/Thracia conflict rather closely.

By seeing Azure do that, you say to her, Who are you? Lilith saved the Avatar in Ch3, so he/she doesn't find out about the Revelations world.

That was actually from Revelations upon which you enter through a lake. It would make sense as to why that Garon is only water.

What really grinds my gears is how transparently evil Garon is but Marx flip flops between trusting/supporting Kamui and treating him like a potential traitor. As far as Kamui knows, Garon tried to kill Kamui twice before the route split and as soon as he returns, Garon tries to get him killed yet again. Garon sends Kamui on what everyone knows is a suicide mission and then cackles about how much he'll enjoy having Kamui suffer... and he does this all in front of Marx! Does that not set off any warning bells, Marx? Well it must have meant something, because Elise, Leon and Marx go behind Garin's back to support Kamui. But by the end of the game, when Kamui goes as far as supporting the invasion of his own homeland, Marx has the audacity to question his loyalty and threatens to execute him if he's lying. Fuck off Marx, I deserve a better brother than you.

The fact that it took Garon literally being a monster, instead of being a morally reprehensible human being, for Marx to turn on him is an awful failing in the story.

Wait, so there is actually more than one Garon?!

One is a dragon (Birthright), one is slime (Conquest), one is the real one (Revelations).

...And Xandar turning on him was to of no choice after seeing the outcome.

''Garon'' is a cartoon villain answer to Rudolf and Trabant. Go figure that he turns out to be a slime monster, it saves the effort of actually trying to explore the Nohr King's ideology, cause, what have you, and brushes off the issue of trying to get all of the Nohr siblings to rebel against him.

Not like Tozeh(FE2) though.

He was from Revelations...why else was Shenmei his wife?!

They don't actually. Lilith kept herself in the shadow (Her portrait was always shadowed) to keep her identity hidden. Only Hydra realized who she was and sent them away before they could find out.

As for those mentioning the shapeshifting dragon deal, the story itself does mention that Hoshido and even Nohr family members in the past have been born with potent dragon blood strong enough to turn them into dragons. I suppose this was their own way to justify Garon's appearance as a dragon on Birthright during the final batle.

Shows in the DLC episode as she was ashamed of society till Hydra sent her off.

His body didn't give out like it did on Nohr Ch27 when Garon is actually a Manakete as it reveals this on the Birthright path of Ch27.

-----

EDIT: http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Xander

Etymology

Xander comes from Alexander.

Marx is a German surname. Some claim the Jewish German version of the name is an acronym composed of the first two letters of the Hebrew Masiach with a Hebrew rendition of the Latin Rex (cf. Jewish German surname Katz).

Xandar is perfect. Despite his unfathomable trust in his father no matter what he does!

Edited November 18, 2015 by Princess_Elise

[Tsuky]

Your fanfiction is the claim that Corrin goes to fight Hoshido with absolutely no consideration to the country, a stretch like that is ridiculous unless followed by "I think" because you're directly tying this into the idea that Takumi shouldn't apologise.

How is he giving any consideration to the wellbeing of Hoshido when he decides to support a full-blown invasion of it? Sure, he might've said here and there that he felt guilty about invading, but his actions show that those are no more than empty words. Are those words supposed to make the Hoshidan people feel better that Kamui "took them into consideration" when he invaded? Sorry, but pretty thoughts don't justify the damage that Kamui did to Hoshido just because Nohr can't take care of their internal problems and overthrow an obviously-evil king without relying on the suffering of another nation who did Nohr no wrong (as far as we can tell in the story).

And why does Takumi have to apologize for anything? Kamui basically committed all the atrocities that Takumi accused him of. So is he apologizing that he couldn't read Kamui's mind and find out about Kamui's true intentions? Wow. Kamui's intentions don't change the fact that Takumi and Ryouma, along with many Hoshidan people (possibly including his own retainers) are now dead and Hinoka and Sakura are left with a country in ruins. Great, so Nohr finally got their act together and put a decent human being on the throne, but it's at the expense of Hoshido. If I were any of the Hoshidan siblings, I would not be forgiving Kamui. Why didn't u tell us about the throne earlier? We could've thrown it outside the country borders for you to pick up!

Oh, the number of problems I have with the story...

Edited November 18, 2015 by Tsuky

[Sunwoo]

He's justified for maybe chapter 5 and 10, but he ends up being spared three times saying the exact same thing everytime, that man or woman who's sparing everyone all the time is for some reason a barbarian because of one event he has up to three times to mull over in the game. To say its a reasonable reaction is just ridiculous although its likely due to Anankos's influence but still something Takumi is at fault for.

The main problem is that you're still expecting him to be rational despite his anger. As someone else in another thread put it, neither Takumi nor the Hoshidan siblings had the chance to properly mourn their mother. Even if Kamui spares the lives of the Hoshidans out of mercy, maybe to Takumi it it comes off as mocking. Ss if he Kamui is saying "you're not worth killing because you're pathetic and you'll never beat me". I know that's not what Kamui intends it as. But Takumi's self-confidence is so much in the shitter I wouldn't be surprised if this is how he interpreted it as.

I agree that Takumi holds on to his anger for too long. But on the other hand, I can see how that is a REASONABLE reaction for SOME people. Honestly, it feels a lot more realistic than whatever his siblings are feeling. Not to mention, since when is having a character flaw and actual faults a bad thing? And how does having faults make the character wrong about everything? It doesn't.

Your fanfiction is the claim that Corrin goes to fight Hoshido with absolutely no consideration to the country, a stretch like that is ridiculous unless followed by "I think" because you're directly tying this into the idea that Takumi shouldn't apologise. as a result you're trying to twist the story to the point that Corrin's motivation literally like he or she was out to get Hoshido in the first place which is in exact opposition to the plot. You can't say "How arrogant" for me calling it fanfiction when you're suggesting something that has no basis other than the results of Corrin was actively trying avoid, promises against and even apologizes for multiple times for.

Have you ever heard the saying "show, don't tell"? The game tells us that Kamui wants to do what's best for Hoshido, sure. But I sure as hell am not getting it from his actions. Whatever consideration he gives for Hoshido and its people feel like token concern. In the end, I don't get the impression that he is invading Hoshido to save Hoshido. I see it as he is invading Hoshido to save Nohr from slime Garon, even if it's at the cost at sacrificing Hoshido but the deluded child actually thinks it's saving Hoshido.

I'm not twisting the story. The story has twisted its own damn self to the point where I find it very hard to believe what it wants me to believe. Actions speak louder than words. And Kamui's actions sure as hell scream louder than whatever sympathy he has for Hoshido. My "fanfiction" is merely what my interpretation of the story is based on what I've seen, and my interpretation is no less valid than yours because everyone sees everything differently. By calling my interpretation "fanfiction", you're dismissing all of my reasons, whether you agree with them or not does not change the fact that they are valid to me and may even be backed up by my arguments. Honestly, the way you're approaching this argument with me is making you look like the ass -- not me.

[Tsuky]

Have you ever heard the saying "show, don't tell"? The game tells us that Kamui wants to do what's best for Hoshido, sure. But I sure as hell am not getting it from his actions. Whatever consideration he gives for Hoshido and its people feel like token concern. In the end, I don't get the impression that he is invading Hoshido to save Hoshido. I see it as he is invading Hoshido to save Nohr from slime Garon, even if it's at the cost at sacrificing Hoshido but the deluded child actually thinks it's saving Hoshido.

Exactly, Kamui has next-to-no common sense in Conquest. Yay, Hoshido is in shambles, but no worries, it's "saved"!

Edited November 18, 2015 by Tsuky

[Sunwoo]

Exactly, Kamui has next-to-no common sense in Conquest. Yay, Hoshido is in shambles, but no worries, it's "saved"!

Yeah, I don't think I have so much of a problem with Kamui's motives. Just that they get away with everything that they did without so much of a consequence ;/

[Tsuky]

Yeah, I don't think I have so much of a problem with Kamui's motives. Just that they get away with everything that they did without so much of a consequence ;/

I definitely don't have a problem with Kamui's intentions, either. It's just that his approach was so naive and non-sensical that you feel like someone should call him out on his BS logic after all the terrible things that happened, but nope, still "the light that shines in the dark." Yeah, I'm sure the Hoshidan people were super thankful for this light of salvation that you shone on them, Kamui :P

Edited November 18, 2015 by Tsuky

[Time the Crestfallen]

Exactly, Kamui has next-to-no common sense in Conquest. Yay, Hoshido is in shambles, but no worries, it's "saved"!

The problem is that the writers of the Nohr path wanted to have it both ways; they wanted Nohr to be a darker and edgier path (as evident by the advertisement for it claiming to have a more 'complex' story), but they also want Kamui to remain a shining paragon of all that is good and righteous who can do no wrong. Here's what I would've done (although my ideas may be terrible, it's just personal opinion):

1- Make it more clear that Nohr is invading Hoshido to sustain itself and have Kamui be more or less fine with it, as he's lived in Nohr with his Nohrian siblings for as long as he can remember (Birthright is about saving Hoshido at the expense of Nohr, so why can't Conquest involve saving Nohr at the expense of Hoshido?).

2- Have the 'revolution' be about removing corrupting influences from within Nohr's ranks, such as criminals having prestigious and high-ranking positions in both bureaucracy and military, rampant socio-economic disparity and other such things, with the causes for all of them being ultimately traced back to Garon. Two things can occur here; for those of you who believe that there's nothing inherently wrong with Touma/Anankos ETC and think that it was just poorly handled, make Garon a willing accomplice for their scheme for a selfish, but understandably reason (such as Anankos promising to revive Shenmei and the other children who died in the Waifu Wars). For those of you who think that everything about the Third Path can die in a fire, Garon is deliberately causing or enhancing these issues so that he can excuse going to War with Hoshido for resources or as a means of uniting his divided country against a common enemy.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Phillius

[PuffPuff]

The problem is that the writers of the Nohr path wanted to have it both ways; they wanted Nohr to be a darker and edgier path (as evident by the advertisement for it claiming to have a more 'complex' story), but they also want Kamui to remain a shining paragon of all that is good and righteous who can do no wrong. Here's what I would've done (although my ideas may be terrible, it's just personal opinion):

1- Make it more clear that Nohr is invading Hoshido to sustain itself and have Kamui be more or less fine with it, as he's lived in Nohr with his Nohrian siblings for as long as he can remember (Birthright is about saving Hoshido at the expense of Nohr, so why can't Conquest involve saving Nohr at the expense of Hoshido?).

2- Have the 'revolution' be about removing corrupting influences from within Nohr's ranks, such as criminals having prestigious and high-ranking positions in both bureaucracy and military, rampant socio-economic disparity and other such things, with the causes for all of them being ultimately traced back to Garon. Two things can occur here; for those of you who believe that there's nothing inherently wrong with Touma/Anankos ETC and think that it was just poorly handled, make Garon a willing accomplice for their scheme for a selfish, but understandably reason (such as Anankos promising to revive Shenmei and the other children who died in the Waifu Wars). For those of you who think that everything about the Third Path can die in a fire, Garon is deliberately causing or enhancing these issues so that he can excuse going to War with Hoshido for resources or as a means of uniting his divided country against a common enemy.

It's easy how Anankos aquires the power to bring the dead back to life.

His Dragon Vein is much higher of that of the Avatar's which his/her's was granted on even a small level like the royals shocking that it wasn't to a better level of him/her being his child. Some say that Azure is the next Narga with her being able to open up worlds by jumping off of cliffs and her being the Touma's daughter. Just like she becomes queen of Touma if the Avatar(Male) marries her on Revelations.

Birthright and Conquest(Azure)

Since she uses her necklaces power to keep the peace between the two kingdoms upon her ending on both paths. Azure is the name of the Sky of the shade of blue. Makes sense since she governs the skies.

[Tsuky]

The problem is that the writers of the Nohr path wanted to have it both ways; they wanted Nohr to be a darker and edgier path (as evident by the advertisement for it claiming to have a more 'complex' story), but they also want Kamui to remain a shining paragon of all that is good and righteous who can do no wrong. Here's what I would've done (although my ideas may be terrible, it's just personal opinion):

1- Make it more clear that Nohr is invading Hoshido to sustain itself and have Kamui be more or less fine with it, as he's lived in Nohr with his Nohrian siblings for as long as he can remember (Birthright is about saving Hoshido at the expense of Nohr, so why can't Conquest involve saving Nohr at the expense of Hoshido?).

2- Have the 'revolution' be about removing corrupting influences from within Nohr's ranks, such as criminals having prestigious and high-ranking positions in both bureaucracy and military, rampant socio-economic disparity and other such things, with the causes for all of them being ultimately traced back to Garon. Two things can occur here; for those of you who believe that there's nothing inherently wrong with Touma/Anankos ETC and think that it was just poorly handled, make Garon a willing accomplice for their scheme for a selfish, but understandably reason (such as Anankos promising to revive Shenmei and the other children who died in the Waifu Wars). For those of you who think that everything about the Third Path can die in a fire, Garon is deliberately causing or enhancing these issues so that he can excuse going to War with Hoshido for resources or as a means of uniting his divided country against a common enemy.

I think these are really good ideas. Highlighting the resource disparity would've been a simple way to at least improve this mess of a story. Or another way would be to make Hoshido more gray: Kamui is slowly gathering allies to overthrow Garon, but while the country is unstable, Hoshido sees this as an opportunity to get rid of Nohrian threat and decides to invade. This would give Kamui a chance to interact with the Hoshidan siblings (which might be one reason the current story got messed up, since the devs probably thought that if it's just Kamui fixing Nohr from the inside, Hoshido has little to do with the whole endeavor. I can understand where they are coming from, it's just that they chose a poor way to execute it) and would make Hoshido at least not all good.

But I personally think Birthright isn't about saving Hoshido at the expense of Nohr. My understanding is that in Birthright, Kamui took a relatively small army of people (the units we are in control of) to sneak into Nohr and get rid of Garon; there was no outright invasion that would've ruined the lives of many innocent people, and in the end, Nohr, unlike Hoshido in Conquest, wasn't in shambles. I don't feel that it's really equal in that sense.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Tsuky

[Alazen]

I honestly say that the ''toil filled, Mordorlike Nohr'' angle doesn't really work with Nohr being some sort of mass conquering nation that can pose a significant threat to the apparently greener Hoshido. It being such a harsh place brings up the question of how it can support its apparent military. All considered, it comes off as a cheap attempt to either get sympathy for Nohr or to handwave it being so ''rotten'' compared to Hoshido. Note that in the Judgral games, it took a desert ambush on a sizable Lenster force and cooperation with Reidric to conquer Lenster. And Thracia with the aid of Manster forces was still beaten in battle against the Empire with Conote.

As for ''greying'' Hoshido, the Tokugawa Shogunate had policies that were rooted in extending the regime's control throughout Japan and maintaining the order (see the trade restrictions for the first one and the persecution of Christians for the second one). Japanese conduct in war had its share of brutality. Let alone the imperialism that China's dynasties took part in. All in all, I would say you could ''grey'' Hoshido by making it more like pre-Meiji Japan and a couple of Chinese dynasties.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Alazen

[NekoKnight]

Exactly, Kamui has next-to-no common sense in Conquest. Yay, Hoshido is in shambles, but no worries, it's "saved"!

I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong) the story was suggesting that Kamui was "saving" Hoshido, just that he was trying to spare as many people as possible while being complicit with the invasion. The only way this could make sense and sort of maintain Kamui's moral standing is if he felt a successful invasion was inevitable and that he'd do more good helping a conquered nation than he would dying defending a country that was lost. Of course, we know that's not true and even if it were, I don't recall Kamui mentioning this as a reason for assisting in the invasion.

This is the same problem that Suzukaze has. He assists Kamui because Kamui is a "good guy" but what Kamui is doing, regardless of how much he dislikes it, is wrong.

I honestly say that the ''toil filled, Mordorlike Nohr'' angle doesn't really work with Nohr being some sort of mass conquering nation that can pose a significant threat to the apparently greener Hoshido.

Um, Mordor was a Mordorlike place in LoTR and they were pretty good at conquering. Then again, LoTR is a more classical battle of good vs evil, and other materials real that some places are not wasteland and produce a lot of food. So I guess it's more excused.

Edited November 18, 2015 by NekoKnight

[NeonZ]

Exactly, Kamui has next-to-no common sense in Conquest. Yay, Hoshido is in shambles, but no worries, it's "saved"!

Hoshido's army is in shambles. The same army that attacked Nohr multiple times through the story and was miraculously spared multiple times in spite of various losses. Until this time it wasn't.

Besides, the game does say that his initial reason to siding with Norh is to stay with his siblings, and they do acknowledge that Kamui's actions brought consequences to Hoshido, you're apparently just annoyed that Kamui isn't punished for it, or by Hoshido's characters not turning into revenge driven fanatics. Really, even Takumi's forgiving of Kamui isn't so much about making sure Kamui is pure, but making sure Hoshido stays completely "white". Takumi doesn't go as some grudge bearing evil spirit, unlike what all his previous actions in the story would indicate, but as an enlightened soul that found peace.

[Tsuky]

Hoshido's army is in shambles. The same army that attacked Nohr multiple times through the story and was miraculously spared multiple times in spite of various losses. Until this time it wasn't.

Besides, the game does say that his initial reason to siding with Norh is to stay with his siblings, and they do acknowledge that Kamui's actions brought consequences to Hoshido, you're apparently just annoyed that Kamui isn't punished for it, or by Hoshido's characters not turning into revenge driven fanatics. Really, even Takumi's forgiving of Kamui isn't so much about making sure Kamui is pure, but making sure Hoshido stays completely "white". Takumi doesn't go as some grudge bearing evil spirit, unlike what all his previous actions in the story would indicate, but as an enlightened soul that found peace.

Uh, I highly doubt letting Garon and Macbeth (along with their troops) into Hoshido didn't result in any collateral damage. These are psychos who pretty much kill people for fun, not exactly the most honorable bunch; why are we assuming that they only targeted the Hoshidan army and not civilian towns?

Perhaps they did acknowledge the consequences, but it was pretty much brushed aside and the topic certainly wasn't dealt with enough (basically, Kamui expresses some guilt and everyone rushes in to say that it's not his fault, blah blah blah). The Hoshidans certainly don't have to be out for revenge at the end of the story, but Kamui shouldn't have been forgiven and accepted so easily. Also, I don't even want Hoshido to stay "white," so Takumi apologizing to Kamui is crap either way.

Anyway, many of the problems stem from the intense Kamui-worshipping throughout the story. If the devs wanted to depict him as a naive child who had good intentions but didn't choose the best approach, that would've been fine (although not so pleasant as a self-insert), but there needs to be people to legitimately challenge/question some of his decisions without getting called out as "wrong" if that's the case. There's pretty much none of that. His actions in Conquest were basically equal to doing nothing; the events would've unfolded the same way regardless of whether he knew about Garon being a slime monster or not (okay, so maybe all the Hoshidan siblings would've gotten killed instead of two, but that's hardly an accomplishment). I feel that Birthright actually suffers from some of these problems as well, but the difference is that the Hoshidan siblings were well aware of what Kamui really wanted to do and can advise him accordingly, whereas the Nohrian siblings were left in the dark for pretty much the entire story and Kamui had to do his own thing even though he's inexperienced, which is not their fault; the contrived plot is to be blamed.

I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong) the story was suggesting that Kamui was "saving" Hoshido, just that he was trying to spare as many people as possible while being complicit with the invasion. The only way this could make sense and sort of maintain Kamui's moral standing is if he felt a successful invasion was inevitable and that he'd do more good helping a conquered nation than he would dying defending a country that was lost. Of course, we know that's not true and even if it were, I don't recall Kamui mentioning this as a reason for assisting in the invasion.

This is the same problem that Suzukaze has. He assists Kamui because Kamui is a "good guy" but what Kamui is doing, regardless of how much he dislikes it, is wrong.

Yeah, you're right, I did exaggerate quite a bit there, but like you've already said, Kamui's way of thinking is problematic regardless. And Suzukaze's characterization in Conquest is pretty much a disaster...

Edited November 18, 2015 by Tsuky

[Dark Sage]

It's important to keep in mind that while Kamui often spares enemies (to the point that every single on the maps live, if knocked out (which is ridiculous in and of itself but that's for another time)), Ganz and Macbeth often show up and start killing everybody once he's done. Like in Chapter 13, Kamui puts down the rebellion in Chevalier, which gives Ganz thr opportunity to start slaughtering innocents en masse without retaliation. Or Chapter 11 where Kamui gets the Rainbow Sage killed. By the last chapters, once the invasion is successful, Garon and Ganz apparently butcher any Hoshidans they come across while walking down the street. Sure, he may not be performing the atrocities himself, but he's still responsible for them happening anyway.

Which I would be ok with if Kamui was called on it or the game didn't act like this didn't make Kamui a bad person, but it does. Hinoka, Ryoma, and Sakura shouldn't forgive Kamui or want him back because he is the reason the invasion is so successful and why Garon can just massacre their people whenever he pleases. But they do and Kamui is treated as havng the moral high ground.

Takumi apologizing to Kamui is bullshit because he didn't do anything wrong. Despite arvilino's claims, Takumi hating Kamui and Nohr is justified. Nohr is responsible for the deaths of his parents, invading his homeland, performing atrocities on his people, and later taking his younger sister prisoner. Kamui is complicit in most of this, and he also betrays his family, breaking the hearts of the rest of his siblings, especially after Mikoto sacrificed herself to save him. Yes, Kamui spares people, but he is still responsible for the success of Garon's plans, which end with the deaths of numerous people. It's like a guy who drives a bank robber to and from the bank; he may not have committed the robbey and he may not have shot anybody, but he's still the reason the robber was able to succeed. Besides, what exactly does Takumi do that's so horrible? He doesn't attack Nohr civilians, he doesn't raid villages, and he doesn't perform war crimes. He just tells Kamui, Aqua, and Nohr to eat shit and die. I guess he shoots at Elise, but she's an enemy combatant and Elise is just fine even when he hits. In short, Takumi's attitude and actions are pretty reasonable given the circumstances and has nothing to be sorry for. In fact, he has the most realistic reaction out of everybody.

I actually like games where the protagonist does some rather questionable things, when it's noticed in the story. Tactics Ogre does this rather well because no matter what path you take, the protagonist does some rather shady things (even if some of them are not immediately obvious) and the characters take note of it and have differing reactions to it, some of them calling him out. The game doesn't try to paint him as a morally pure individual either, nor do people treat him this way. None of this happens in Nohr; its moral ambiguity comes from Kamui aiding rather evil people but it also tries to absolve him and acts as if he were in the right. Some people compared Kamui to Camus, but Camus is aware of what he's doing and what he's complicit in and so are the characters. Sure, Nina is in love with him, but that was only after years of contact; she hated him before that and nobody else in the story forgives him for helping Dolhr. In contrast, Kamui is doing the wrong thing but apparently it's ok because he feels bad about it.

Nohr isn't the worst FE story, but it's certainly the most disappointing.

[Raumata]

"I'm thinking they should've scrapped Nohr's plot entirely", is what I could've written and then left it at that. Otherwise, what do I know? I'm not an editor or a writer.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Raumata

[Sunwoo]

Takumi apologizing to Kamui is bullshit because he didn't do anything wrong. Despite arvilino's claims, Takumi hating Kamui and Nohr is justified. Nohr is responsible for the deaths of his parents, invading his homeland, performing atrocities on his people, and later taking his younger sister prisoner. Kamui is complicit in most of this, and he also betrays his family, breaking the hearts of the rest of his siblings, especially after Mikoto sacrificed herself to save him. Yes, Kamui spares people, but he is still responsible for the success of Garon's plans, which end with the deaths of numerous people. It's like a guy who drives a bank robber to and from the bank; he may not have committed the robbey and he may not have shot anybody, but he's still the reason the robber was able to succeed. Besides, what exactly does Takumi do that's so horrible? He doesn't attack Nohr civilians, he doesn't raid villages, and he doesn't perform war crimes. He just tells Kamui, Aqua, and Nohr to eat shit and die. I guess he shoots at Elise, but she's an enemy combatant and Elise is just fine even when he hits. In short, Takumi's attitude and actions are pretty reasonable given the circumstances and has nothing to be sorry for. In fact, he has the most realistic reaction out of everybody.

I agree with all of this. Honestly, it feels like Takumi's biggest "crime" is disliking Kamui and having an attitude … which is actually quite realistic, considering the events that had happened in the game. I'm not saying he's perfect -- he's far from it, in fact. But he is hardly the "villainous" Hoshidan sibling either. And while I agree that he is rude to Kamui and Aqua (and Nohrians) even when it's not called for, so are a lot of people IRL towards other. Including people who say they dislike characters who are so rude towards the player character, when they're rude to other people IRL. Uh, reality check?

Oh, I also had the feeling that someone was going to go "BUT CHAPTER 10" in response to your chapter about how he doesn't raid villages, so I looked at the script for it. Apparently Hoshidan forces have taken the harbor, but there is no mention of them raiding the village. Just people hiding in their houses because there's a freaking battle going on and it's the smart thing to do.

[NeonZ]

Which I would be ok with if Kamui was called on it or the game didn't act like this didn't make Kamui a bad person, but it does. Hinoka, Ryoma, and Sakura shouldn't forgive Kamui or want him back because he is the reason the invasion is so successful and why Garon can just massacre their people whenever he pleases. But they do and Kamui is treated as havng the moral high ground.

Takumi apologizing to Kamui is bullshit because he didn't do anything wrong. Despite arvilino's claims, Takumi hating Kamui and Nohr is justified. Nohr is responsible for the deaths of his parents, invading his homeland, performing atrocities on his people, and later taking his younger sister prisoner. Kamui is complicit in most of this, and he also betrays his family, breaking the hearts of the rest of his siblings, especially after Mikoto sacrificed herself to save him. Yes, Kamui spares people, but he is still responsible for the success of Garon's plans, which end with the deaths of numerous people. It's like a guy who drives a bank robber to and from the bank; he may not have committed the robbey and he may not have shot anybody, but he's still the reason the robber was able to succeed. Besides, what exactly does Takumi do that's so horrible? He doesn't attack Nohr civilians, he doesn't raid villages, and he doesn't perform war crimes. He just tells Kamui, Aqua, and Nohr to eat shit and die. I guess he shoots at Elise, but she's an enemy combatant and Elise is just fine even when he hits. In short, Takumi's attitude and actions are pretty reasonable given the circumstances and has nothing to be sorry for. In fact, he has the most realistic reaction out of everybody.

I actually like games where the protagonist does some rather questionable things, when it's noticed in the story. Tactics Ogre does this rather well because no matter what path you take, the protagonist does some rather shady things (even if some of them are not immediately obvious) and the characters take note of it and have differing reactions to it, some of them calling him out. The game doesn't try to paint him as a morally pure individual either, nor do people treat him this way. None of this happens in Nohr; its moral ambiguity comes from Kamui aiding rather evil people but it also tries to absolve him and acts as if he were in the right. Some people compared Kamui to Camus, but Camus is aware of what he's doing and what he's complicit in and so are the characters. Sure, Nina is in love with him, but that was only after years of contact; she hated him before that and nobody else in the story forgives him for helping Dolhr. In contrast, Kamui is doing the wrong thing but apparently it's ok because he feels bad about it.

Nohr isn't the worst FE story, but it's certainly the most disappointing.

Regarding Takumi, it's not just his ultimate intentions - his reaction due to what happens leads him to not only hate Garon and the people tied to those plots, but also Nohr itself and everyone from there. Because they wanted him to be redeemable, he never actually does anything that would paint him in black, but his hate and prejudice clearly aren't healthy or rational either, even if it is a realistic reaction.

You mention the "death of his parents", but his mother is actually killed, seemingly, by a stranger, who just happens to steal a Norh weapon. The later events happened after both Hoshido and Nohr led aggressive campaigns against each other, and both to army members. Sakura was a defeated enemy commander, not some innocent taken away for no reason.

And I don't see the hate that Camus got. Nina admired him when she actually got to know him, rather than just looking at him as an enemy - and even Marth hesitates to fight as soon as he learns about their past and attempts to get him to give up without fighting - and that really wasn't Marth's general attitude before FE12, so it's not just due to "him being Marth". In FE12, the two characters that learn Sirius' real identity admire him and it's mentioned that him resurfacing in his real identity would unite all of Grust under him. He never got any hate for his actions, but rather admiration due to being the "noble" enemy among cruel ones.

Uh, I highly doubt letting Garon and Macbeth (along with their troops) into Hoshido didn't result in any collateral damage. These are psychos who pretty much kill people for fun, not exactly the most honorable bunch; why are we assuming that they only targeted the Hoshidan army and not civilian towns?

Because the game actually points out when they do, like after Crimson's failed rebellion.

Realistically, there's no way an army can just walk into a country while damaging only military targets and not causing any civilian casualties, and yet if you go by what's said (or, rather not said - I don't think they ever say that Hoshido's army didn't kill anyone, but they never bring it up either) in the game Hoshido somehow seems to do just that. That's the whole reason that they can even be seen a "victims" in the final campaign of Nohr, due to the story somehow threating all of their previous attacks through the story as armless. So, based on what's shown, although we get Garon and Gunz laughing evilly and killing Hoshido soldiers for no reason, the story never portrays Hoshido as actually falling into ruins due to that invasion either.

[NekoKnight]

So, based on what's shown, although we get Garon and Gunz laughing evilly and killing Hoshido soldiers for no reason, the story never portrays Hoshido as actually falling into ruins due to that invasion either.

This is kind of important though, and the point of Tsucky's comment. You can and should infer that the invasion of Hoshido is brutal when you have people like Garon, Ganz and Macbeth at the helm. It's not shown directly but it would be naive to assume otherwise. While Hoshido's attacks doubtlessly lead to civilian deaths, they don't have an upper brass (or anyone, really) staffed exclusively by psychopaths.

[Pokechu]

The problem is that the writers of the Nohr path wanted to have it both ways; they wanted Nohr to be a darker and edgier path (as evident by the advertisement for it claiming to have a more 'complex' story), but they also want Kamui to remain a shining paragon of all that is good and righteous who can do no wrong. Here's what I would've done (although my ideas may be terrible, it's just personal opinion):

1- Make it more clear that Nohr is invading Hoshido to sustain itself and have Kamui be more or less fine with it, as he's lived in Nohr with his Nohrian siblings for as long as he can remember (Birthright is about saving Hoshido at the expense of Nohr, so why can't Conquest involve saving Nohr at the expense of Hoshido?).

2- Have the 'revolution' be about removing corrupting influences from within Nohr's ranks, such as criminals having prestigious and high-ranking positions in both bureaucracy and military, rampant socio-economic disparity and other such things, with the causes for all of them being ultimately traced back to Garon. Two things can occur here; for those of you who believe that there's nothing inherently wrong with Touma/Anankos ETC and think that it was just poorly handled, make Garon a willing accomplice for their scheme for a selfish, but understandably reason (such as Anankos promising to revive Shenmei and the other children who died in the Waifu Wars). For those of you who think that everything about the Third Path can die in a fire, Garon is deliberately causing or enhancing these issues so that he can excuse going to War with Hoshido for resources or as a means of uniting his divided country against a common enemy.

What's the waifu wars? Was it when the Nohr children had to fight with other children to stay alive? Since they were children of concubines and such? <--highlight

someone teach me how to spoiler