What I personally like about Nohr's story over Hoshido...

[NekoKnight]

Unless I'm mistaken, the invisible enemies are never really explained unless you play IK so you've got this whole faction of monsters that don't get any commentary. At least the Risen are stated to be monsters sent from the future by Grima.

Hoshido and Nohr are bad endings whether you know about IK or not. If after playing or reading about IK, you'll know that Hoshido and Nohr were objectively worse endings. You'll know that everything you worked for was pointless, how the real villain will probably succeed, and how Aqua, Lilith and the Awakening trio fucked over the world. That's the complete story.

Edit: Of course, you'll need ANOTHER DLC to know about how the latter 4 characters fucked up. lol

Edited November 21, 2015 by NekoKnight

[Thane]

I've thought about it and that's incorrect. If someone plays Birthright and/or Conquest through to the end without spoiling themselves on the endings of the other routes most things wrap up as a typical ending to Fire Emblem. While there are character deaths it isn't out of the ordinary for any Fire Emblem game for good/noble characters on opposing sides and even some allies to end up dead(and even in the ending of Revelations that's still the case) and the winning side has better relations with the losing side and helps to rebuild and the losing side isn't leaderless(which is a better state than a couple of previous Fire Emblem games), that isn't really a bad ending.

You'd have to know the endings ahead of time to think there was no choice which isn't how these sorts of games are intended to be played. Play any game with choices with a walkthrough or information of the results of your decisions ahead of time and it'd be the same, if a choice has you lose a character, whole new area or item and you're spoiling yourself and are attempting to pick the results rather than making a choice you'll feel you never had the choice.

I disagree completely. Birthright and Conquest leave out far too much to ever hold a candle to the third path regardless of spoilers or not. Conquest is, as previously pointed out, worse off, but even then Birthright doesn't do a satisfactory job either. What the two original paths leave out ranges from questions of mild importance like Kamui's dragon form and who his real father is (provided you go after a Hoshido sibling, admittedly), to the most important plot elements of the game, such as who the random spectral enemies who show up every once in a while are. The fact of the matter is that both Birthright and Conquest do nothing of importance in terms of the overall narrative; you kick ass through various different countries, duchies or what have you until you kill your grumpy daddy.

Hell, they both pretty much end with Azura saying "yeaaah, but have you tried not fucking up?"

[JupiterKnight]

Typically the characters assume the IK enemies are forces from Nohr.

[warchiefwilliams]

Typically the characters assume the IK enemies are forces from Nohr.

Doesn't that assumption bring up a whole other problem? Sure, the vast majority of the IK's minions are using Nohr's unit classes, but too many of their actions and behaviors scream "not of this world." Even if the characters blame Nohr for the IK forces, you think that the Nohrian dark mages would state that they are unable to summon entities to fight for them. We (as Fire Emblem players) haven't been able to do that since Sacred Stones (I think) and those things weren't meant to fight, let alone act as the standing force for some god-like entity.

Speaking of which, where do faceless even come from? Are they truly summoned by Nohrian mages, which would render my previous point void, or do they come from somewhere else, say the IK?

[CyborgZeta]

Conquest probably could've turned out somewhat better had they not made a trip to the IK, and then follow it up with that silly orb.

[JupiterKnight]

The Faceless, like Golems, are artificial constructs made using dark magic. They're living weapons. Dark magic users are able to control them by using techniques found only in Nohr. Otherwise the mindless Faceless would roam around and attack whoever they can find regardless of allegiance.

Syalla even uses these techniques to summon them in her Paralogue.

This doesn't make them inherently evil though, as Kamui can have a Faceless as their personal servant in My Castle on IK and Nohr routes. Likewise there are Three Golems that can be station to defend it. Shinonome even armwrestles one for fun in the 4komas.

Edited November 22, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[Thane]

Let's not forget that the only reason why Birthright and Conquest even exist in the first place is because of one of the most forced plot conveniences in the history of gaming: the Touma plot curse. Like, Azura (and the Three Idiots) already know(s) everything worth knowing, but can't share it because of a random, unexplained plot device.

You could argue that the characters don't do enough to reveal the important secrets they hold, and I'd agree with you; they all act like morons. However, the fact remains that what allows two thirds of the game to even exist is a bullshit excuse and nothing more. There's no cultural differences for the two countries to overcome to overcome, nor differences in ideologies, religion or the people's personalities or anything like that, nor do many people seem to be against even working together once they've all teamed up; the supposed conflict is all smoke and mirrors.

Edited November 22, 2015 by Thane

[Alazen]

Which is worse, ''No Talking About Touma'' or the Blood Pact? They both serve as excuses to force along a conflict.

Touma with the characters linked to it really drag down the narrative. From Kamui's parentage (a transparent excuse to let Kamui marry from both sets of siblings), Hydra being an underwhelming character who has even less of a cause than Medeus, etc.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Alazen

[NekoKnight]

Which is worse, ''No Talking About Touma'' or the Blood Pact? They both serve as excuses to force along a conflict.

Touma with the characters linked to it really drag down the narrative. From Kamui's parentage (a transparent excuse to let Kamui marry from both sets of siblings), Hydra being an underwhelming character who has even less of a cause than Medeus, etc.

I'd say that they are equally bad for different reasons. The Taboo Curse of Touma is bad because, despite the limitations it presents, there are still ways to work around it. There were many characters who could have done something but didn't and that sets the whole plot in motion. The blood pacts are terrible because we aren't given a reason why anyone would sign a contract that says "Serve me without question or your entire country will die". What does the signer get out of it? How is the contract enforced? How does the contract work? The story doesn't care, it just wants you to believe that 3 leaders of nations signed one, reasons be damned.

[NeonZ]

Unless I'm mistaken, the invisible enemies are never really explained unless you play IK so you've got this whole faction of monsters that don't get any commentary. At least the Risen are stated to be monsters sent from the future by Grima.

Hoshido and Nohr are bad endings whether you know about IK or not. If after playing or reading about IK, you'll know that Hoshido and Nohr were objectively worse endings. You'll know that everything you worked for was pointless, how the real villain will probably succeed, and how Aqua, Lilith and the Awakening trio fucked over the world. That's the complete story.

They're briefly acknowledged in Nohr as being from a third kingdom, but yes, you don't get full explanation.

It's not clear how, but the prophecy indicates that Hydra dies in all three paths. Maybe if it's killed possessing a water familiar rather than an alive human it dies and that's why it avoids doing that until his puppets are falling apart? The Awakening crew leaving after a while in the Nohr ending also matches that.

What the two original paths leave out ranges from questions of mild importance like Kamui's dragon form and who his real father is (provided you go after a Hoshido sibling, admittedly)

That's not answered in IK either though. The revelation of Kamui's relation to Hydra is only in those ciphered texts and in the Awakening trio DLC. Regarding Kamui's dragon form, it is briefly mentioned that there were people with dragon blood strong enough to do that before in the royal families. So, there's an explanation even if it's wrong due to the "real truth" or whatever.

Edited November 24, 2015 by NeonZ

[Ryo]

It's not clear how, but the prophecy indicates that Hydra dies in all three paths.

Which prophecy are you talking about? Aqua's song doesn't mention anything about that, while the ciphered text only said that he conveyed the prophecy into a song so that someone can use it to kill him. This is also brought up in Invisible History.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Ryo

[NeonZ]

Which prophecy are you talking about? Aqua's song doesn't mention anything about that, while the ciphered text only said that he conveyed the prophecy into a song so that someone can use it to kill him. This is also brought up in Invisible History.

I meant exactly Aqua's song, which is the prophecy written by Hydra (and also part of the ciphered text). There's one prophecy for each route. Why would two prophecies that supposedly lead to Hydra's death be dead ends?

[Ryo]

I don't see how the corresponding prophecies for Nohr and Hoshido indicate anything about Hydra's death? They don't lead to Hydra's death either. The prophecies themselves are not the curse to kill Hydra, they're only visions of future events. Only the song is, it's just that its lyrics are written from the prophecies, and all three of them. Also, Invisible History revealed that the song can't actually kill Hydra, it only serves to bind his powers whenever he can't control himself (otherwise he would have been dead long ago since generations of Aqua's family has been using the song). This is true even in the individual routes, despite Aqua's singing, you still have to defeat the bosses with Yatogami (although you don't actually need it gameplay-wise). And even then, nothing indicates or proves that Hydra himself has died, not just the possessed.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Ryo

[arvilino]

I don't see how the corresponding prophecies for Nohr and Hoshido indicate anything about Hydra's death? They don't lead to Hydra's death either. The prophecies themselves are not the curse to kill Hydra, they're only visions of future events. Only the song is, it's just that its lyrics are written from the prophecies, and all three of them. Also, Invisible History revealed that the song can't actually kill Hydra, it only serves to bind his powers whenever he can't control himself (otherwise he would have been dead long ago since generations of Aqua's family has been using the song). This is true even in the individual routes, despite Aqua's singing, you still have to defeat the bosses with Yatogami (although you don't actually need it gameplay-wise). And even then, nothing indicates or proves that Hydra himself has died, not just the possessed.

I think Invisible History and Anankos' mission to Owain, Severa and Inigo would imply that they would help Corrin face Anankos' dragon form in the Invisible Kingdom some time after the ending Conquest or Birthright especially since they promised to complete their mission. Originally Anankos' heart was expecting Corrin to be in Hoshido where the trio would head to, help Corrin collect the 5 holy weapons and then return with them to face Anankos.

The specifics in this collecting all five of which would mean if Corrin was never kidnapped the intended route would be a version of Birthright's plot(except with Corrin having no ties to Nohr and the trio being on Hoshido's side) which would have to happen in order for them to get Siegfried from Xander and Brunnhilde from Leon which likely would lead to a confrontation with Garon regardless and then face Anankos in the Invisible Kingdom afterwards. As a result they'd be able to complete their mission some time after both Conquest and Birthright since all of the weapons end up accounted for(even if the wielders of 1 or 2 of them end up dead).

Edited November 25, 2015 by arvilino

[JupiterKnight]

Hydra made a deal about if they choose wrongly they will die in the end though, which happens to Inigo on Birthright if he's killed and I seriously think that they do intend for him to be dead on that route just from that bit.

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

Hydra made a deal about if they choose wrongly they will die in the end though, which happens to Inigo on Birthright if he's killed and I seriously think that they do intend for him to be dead on that route just from that bit.

Exactly, if he were alive we would have had a alternate scene of him afterwards despite not battling him on screen, but that's just it he dies off screen so your choice to not battle him doesn't even matter. I mean look at it this way, if he were alive don't you think he would have gone to Xander's side as he is dying? But we get no such indication of him being alive afterwards like Owain and Severa. Anyone who thinks Inigo and Pieri survived in Birthright is just having wishful thinking and the other subordinates in Conquest being Oboro, Hinata, Saizou and Kagerou are no exception all of these characters are extremely loyal to their retainers they wouldn't just let their lord die alone as shown with Inigo and Pieri going against Xander's orders.

Edited November 26, 2015 by AbsoluteZer0Nova

[Kos]

So I read through most of the topic and for some reason I can not help but feel that the Nohr route would of benefited from the writer having played Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together.

Maybe the Chaos route is too dark but it seems more like what they kind of wanted to go with.

[Alazen]

You might be referring to the Law Path. Law is the Path that has the leader unit take part in a massacre.

[Kos]

Ah true. I really liked that game cause regardless of route you never felt 'helpless'. You always had a choice and your character felt more human due to it. Even in the massacre part you did not come off as spineless. Though you definitely came off as a 'following' orders, even if they are insane, type.

Might be off of me but I would rather Corrin went through with the orders and bloodied their own hands, which maybe eventually leads to them questioning the King than the whole stand-on a side-line and mope.

Now granted I have not played the game so I am working with limited information I have found in the topic and further, may have remembered somethings incorrectly as I slept afterwards.

[Alazen]

It's a conflict of portrayal.

On one hand, Fates hits you over the head with how Nohr is the ''wrong'' side, being the dark grey (at best) to Hoshido's white.Actual Garon had Sumeragi killed and abducted Kamui. Nohr is the invader. Nohr troops perform war crimes or otherwise ''dishonorable'' tactics. Kamui is quick to regret sticking with Nohr. The only Nohr sibling who isn't either an enabling lackey (Marx), Camilla, or otherwise dandy with shedding blood is Elise who gets treated as exceptional. Ganz and Macbeth are both there to eat babies with Kamui standing impotent while Fake Garon is a mess. The point that Nohr is apparently another Thracia goes out the window when turns out that Ryoma is dandy with helping Nohr out which casts doubt on Sumeragi and Mikoto saying no if any Nohrians asked for help.

On the other hand, we're supposed to see Kamui as this super charismatic paragon. We're meant to see him as having values that deserve respect. Since Hoshido was established as the innocent victim that does nothing wrong the narrative twists itself so that Kamui won't be vilified. This culminates in the Magic Throne shenanigans where Kamui is apparently forced to help steamroll Hoshido but Ghost Takumi tells Kamui how wrong he was to not worship him and the Hoshido sisters excuse Kamui in the end.

[Thane]

It's a conflict of portrayal.

On one hand, Fates hits you over the head with how Nohr is the ''wrong'' side, being the dark grey (at best) to Hoshido's white.Actual Garon had Sumeragi killed and abducted Kamui. Nohr is the invader. Nohr troops perform war crimes or otherwise ''dishonorable'' tactics. Kamui is quick to regret sticking with Nohr. The only Nohr sibling who isn't either an enabling lackey (Marx), Camilla, or otherwise dandy with shedding blood is Elise who gets treated as exceptional. Ganz and Macbeth are both there to eat babies with Kamui standing impotent while Fake Garon is a mess. The point that Nohr is apparently another Thracia goes out the window when turns out that Ryoma is dandy with helping Nohr out which casts doubt on Sumeragi and Mikoto saying no if any Nohrians asked for help.

On the other hand, we're supposed to see Kamui as this super charismatic paragon. We're meant to see him as having values that deserve respect. Since Hoshido was established as the innocent victim that does nothing wrong the narrative twists itself so that Kamui won't be vilified. This culminates in the Magic Throne shenanigans where Kamui is apparently forced to help steamroll Hoshido but Ghost Takumi tells Kamui how wrong he was to not worship him and the Hoshido sisters excuse Kamui in the end.

The game has been criticized (even by people who aren't me or even on this forum; imagine that!) for wanting to have their cake and eat it too. It's supposed to be about family but you can bone everyone, you're supposed to be able to take a darker path but the narrative twists itself to paint Kamui as a saint, it's supposed to be about choices yet the narrative treats all but one as wrong.

It pretty much became Naruto, in the end.

[Neofranky]

You know what would've been cooler? If the Invisible Kingdom was a 3rd faction you could join against Nohr AND Hoshido.

[arvilino]

It's a conflict of portrayal.

On one hand, Fates hits you over the head with how Nohr is the ''wrong'' side, being the dark grey (at best) to Hoshido's white.Actual Garon had Sumeragi killed and abducted Kamui. Nohr is the invader. Nohr troops perform war crimes or otherwise ''dishonorable'' tactics. Kamui is quick to regret sticking with Nohr. The only Nohr sibling who isn't either an enabling lackey (Marx), Camilla, or otherwise dandy with shedding blood is Elise who gets treated as exceptional. Ganz and Macbeth are both there to eat babies with Kamui standing impotent while Fake Garon is a mess. The point that Nohr is apparently another Thracia goes out the window when turns out that Ryoma is dandy with helping Nohr out which casts doubt on Sumeragi and Mikoto saying no if any Nohrians asked for help.

On the other hand, we're supposed to see Kamui as this super charismatic paragon. We're meant to see him as having values that deserve respect. Since Hoshido was established as the innocent victim that does nothing wrong the narrative twists itself so that Kamui won't be vilified. This culminates in the Magic Throne shenanigans where Kamui is apparently forced to help steamroll Hoshido but Ghost Takumi tells Kamui how wrong he was to not worship him and the Hoshido sisters excuse Kamui in the end.

The narrative doesn't twist itself though, Corrin's approach to the war was forgiven by their siblings which isn't a big surprise considering almost every battle he/she is involved with both before and after the war ends with the opposing side staying alive, as a result it remains in-line with his/her characterisation rest of the game and if Corrin "avoided" being villified through their normal characterisation in a situation that where acting any differently would villify them, that's sincerity. Also of note is the brutality Garon, Macbeth and Ganz. enforce outside the handful of civillians isn't actually much bloodier(it might even be less bloodier considering there were PoWs other than Sakura during the Conquest campaign) than what the typical Fire Emblem game protagonists do to their enemies even story-wise, take for example Elincia in Radiant Dawn where the order to slaughter all the remaining surrendered and retreated Crimean rebels is part of her becoming a better Queen, which also suggests the rest of them outside Ludveck were killed during battle.

Additionally Nohr clearly isn't supposed to be Thracia. If Nohr was Thracia and the decision to confront Hoshido would have been legitimate if Nohr couldn't survive otherwise, Nohr being the aggressors is intentional. If Someone has so much as seen a trailer for the game with "Glory-seeking Nohr", "Peace Loving Hoshido" its clear what to expect. This also plays into the choices. Hoshido appears the more moral or good choice when it comes to a decision between it and Nohr, which likely is by design. When it comes to games with choices newer players tend to lean towards the good or light side of the conflict, in this case it means more inexperienced players will tend to symphasise with and go through Birthright first. Which makes sense since Fire Emblem is a videogame first and foremost and Birthright is supposed to be a standard light vs. dark Fire Emblem story and a good place to start if its someone's first Fire Emblem game or they aren't experienced with the series gameplay. (Interestingly Conquest's story has some parralels with its own gameplay, its definitely the harder path in both gameplay and in terms of the struggle and regrets Corrin faces throughout the campaign).

Edited November 29, 2015 by arvilino

[Tsuky]

It pretty much became Naruto, in the end.

I thought the same thing. The story for the past few years and the ending made me regret following the series for so many years.

[Time the Crestfallen]

All the complaints about Naruto I hear make me glad I bailed when the Uchiha wankery started up.