Spoilers If you could changed the Characters, how would you change them?

[GrayClouds23]

I always laugh when I see people complain about incest in a fictional story. Especially the Hoshido side. Its based off Ancient Japan. Get real guys.

Edited December 7, 2015 by GrayClouds23

[NekoKnight]

By the way, when I mentioned politically correct, it was more for things like people hoping Joker was less rude to others, Pieri was less murdery, Zero less lewd, and stuff like that. Again, sorry if it isn't the right way to say it, I'm not the most eloquent of people.

I believe the word you are looking for is "flat." You don't want them to dull down characters and make them flat. I will disagree with you on that matter, however. The sort of "problem" characters people complain about aren't better written because of their exaggerated and unpleasant personalities. Some of their behavior is downright disturbing such as Zero x Elise where Zero is sexually attracted to a child and specifically says "Elise-sama's tears...how wonderful." That doesn't say "interesting" to me, it's pretty messed up.

But to each their own. I suspect the localized version will be making some changes to these characters.

[Thane]

I'm sorry if I'm not using the right words to describe it. But yes, I'm being 100% serious here.

I do agree that they aren't taking incest seriously, but only with the part about Kamui being able to S-rank all the royals, especially those on the Nohr side that they grew up with. Even more so when the game was marketed with the idea of family playing a huge role. I do think that incest is fine if written well, but they just put it in the game for the sake of letting the avatar marry everyone, which is bad.

I don't, however, think that this new info about Leon cheapens anything (the game is already cheap enough by itself). It's taboo, yes, but what about it? Incest isn't a new thing in FE. Heck, I'm not against in even in real life, as long as you don't harm others then whatever floats your boat, right? I personally think it gives his character more depth. I only wish they addressed it in the game, for example not letting him S-rank others or something.

If you're saying him loving his older sister is bad because it was written badly, I have no complaints. I just don't think that it's a bad thing by itself.

By the way, when I mentioned politically correct, it was more for things like people hoping Joker was less rude to others, Pieri was less murdery, Zero less lewd, and stuff like that. Again, sorry if it isn't the right way to say it, I'm not the most eloquent of people.

I don't think political correctness is the word you're looking for. As for people hoping for Pieri being less of a psychopath who murders innocents for fun and looking pretty while acting like a small child who likes talking about her giant tits...well, why wouldn't people want to change her? She's supposed to be the right hand of Xander, a very stoic and serious person who supposedly always puts his country first, yet she is prone to go on killing sprees without a shred of remorse. Not only does that leave us with a repulsive character, but it negatively affects Xander as well.

While I most certainly want characters to have various traits and personalities, both good and bad, I must object to your belief that adding a negative trait makes someone more interesting. The writing of Fire Emblem has never been very good, so expecting Intelligent Systems to treat heavier topics with any dignity is probably futile.

I always laugh when I see people complain about incest in a fictional story. Espeifally the Hoshido side. Its based off Ancient Japan. Get real guys.

You seem to be intentionally misinterpreting what everyone is saying. People aren't complaining about incest as an element of the story, but rather how it is portrayed (or rather NOT portrayed in this case, I guess).

Edited December 7, 2015 by Thane

[bearaby]

I believe the word you are looking for is "flat." You don't want them to dull down characters and make them flat. I will disagree with you on that matter, however. The sort of "problem" characters people complain about aren't better written because of their exaggerated and unpleasant personalities. Some of their behavior is downright disturbing such as Zero x Elise where Zero is sexually attracted to a child and specifically says "Elise-sama's tears...how wonderful." That doesn't say "interesting" to me, it's pretty messed up.

But to each their own. I suspect the localized version will be making some changes to these characters.

You're right about that I don't want them to make the characters less offensive, although I'm not sure flat conveys what I'm thinking of... Anyway, it's not that I think that having bad personalities makes them better written. The game is generally badly written, no doubt about that. I just think the characters as they are, with a whole bunch of problems, makes them much more interesting than a bunch of "normal" people. Something like...

Strange people + well written > Normal people + well written > Strange people + badly written > Normal people + badly written

in terms of interesting-ness, if you will. But of course there's a need for a mix of every kind of person, and not to just fill the cast with teh evilz. So topping the scale would be a mix of strange and normal people, written well.

Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm glad I can play the controversial Japanese version over the localised, less offensive version though.

I don't think political correctness is the word you're looking for. As for people hoping for Pieri being less of a psychopath who murders innocents for fun and looking pretty while acting like a small child who likes talking about her giant tits...well, why wouldn't people want to change her? She's supposed to be the right hand of Xander, a very stoic and serious person who allegedly always puts his country first, yet she is prone to go on killing sprees without a shred of remorse. Not only does that leave us with a repulsive character, but it negatively affects Xander as well.

While I most certainly want characters to have various traits and personalities, both good and bad, I must object to your belief that adding a negative trait makes someone more interesting. The writing of Fire Emblem has never been very good, so expecting Intelligent Systems to treat heavier topics with any dignity is probably futile.

Maybe that's not the right word, but I can't think how else to put it. And well... I don't see why there's a real need to change Pieri. Granted that a person like her wouldn't be looked upon fondly in real life, but it's a game so I don't have a single problem with it. She is kinda extreme, but I rather a bloodthirsty Pieri than a Pieri that acts like Cyrus. Maybe it's just because I dislike the nice and kind type so prevalent in shonen manga, and find the crazy ones more fun (if they're well written, that is).

As for the second part, I kind of addressed it earlier in this post. Yeah... It would be great if they wrote better. I don't really blame the characters for being controversial, rather, I only wish the creators addressed it better.

[Alazen]

I always laugh when I see people complain about incest in a fictional story. Espeifally the Hoshido side. Its based off Ancient Japan. Get real guys.

I must have missed the time when when pre-Meiji Japan was peace-loving. Your post is still faulty since Fates doesn't really try to explored the issue (see revealing Kamui is not a birth sibling to Ryoma and Co).

Edited December 7, 2015 by Alazen

[Nanima]

- Give Camilla a personality. Specifically making her devoted to all her younger siblings, in a purely motherly way (no S-support with Kamui, this goes for all siblings). I also feel like she should be more of a scheming and manipulating character, with attached and discussed moral ambiguousness.

- Give Hinoka an actual role in the plot. Her character concept is fine, but she never gets to develop beyond it.

- Actually taking some risks with Ryouma, Aqua and Sakura. I actually feel that they have great personalities in their supports, but they get shoved into the roles of 'Wise Prince', 'Mysterious Waif' and 'shy little sister' during the plot. Showcase their characters, and if that means disagreeing/being angry with Kamui then so be it.

- On the same topic, no villification of Takumi. It's Kamui who should apologize and beg for forgiveness at the end of Conquest. And it's Kamui who has to prove themselves trustworthy in Birthright. Also don't make Takumi the only one to find Kamui suspicious at the beginning. The royals have an excuse, but there should be more distrust from their retainers and the assorted allies.

- A drastic decrease in player worship.

- Making Kamui related to the Hoshidans. Or at least have the non-relation be an important plot point. Kamui should feel betrayed for being lied to again.

- Tone down Shara's stalking. Make Aqua and Silas into bi-options. Soleil should be able to S-rank Femui, too. Let them have kids.

- In that note, have Soleil and Eponine's supports be about something other than their obsessions. Two or three yaoi/yuri ones are fine, but don't have it be. nearly. every. single. one.

- Female royals get holy weapons

- Tone down Jokers rudeness, Felicia's clumsiness etc.

- No more Kamuisexual. Also Flora/Joker, RyoumaxCrimson and Yukimura/Yuugiri.

let us ship the royals with their counterparts

[Dark Sage]

2) Bad guys - I would have loved to have seen more motivation for Ganz and Iago, honestly. They felt so one dimensional and considering that they played a prominent role as bad guys it would have been nice to see something that would suggest their own motivations. I admit that we did see some motivation for Ganz (wanting to become a king or lord of his own country) but he wasn't all too smart about it and it was kind of just drenched by the 'tough bad guy cliche' with hi impulsive needs to kill and destroy. Iago didn't really get any character motivation aside from pleasing Garon and conforming to (and failing) his every task. I just think that there was a lot of lost potential is all. Ganz could have been smarter and more politically motivated and minded which might have made him a bigger threat and more satisfying villain off the battlefield whilst Iago might have had different motivations like furthering himself or maybe even overthrowing Garon. I don't know. I suppose that we needed some characters to be the generic whipping boys though so RIP interesting developments.

I think what really hurts Ganz is that his motivation feels extremely tacked on, as opposed to someone like Caellach where it really is a major part of his character. More than that though is that he does not come across as a threat. In the map he's introduced, he goes all Leeroy Jenkins and gets reamed by myrmidons and archers and while he does knock Gunther off the bridge, it's ruined by Kamui proceeding to ruin his shit, which makes Ganz look completely incompetent.

Iago is pretty funny too since he really comes across less like the Shakesperean character or Ladt Macbeth and more like Waylon Smithers. Maybe it's just me but I don't find a villainous Smithers very intimidating.

It's fine having villains that are pure evil if they're done well though. Valter is ridiculosuly evil, but he's also unpredictable, manipulative, and genuinely terrifying. His introduction is him wounding Seth permanently and letting him get away to savor the hunt, which shows he's fully in control. In contrast, Ganz actually knocking Gunther off feels like a fluke on his part because of how much he gets his ass handed to him right before and right after this event.

[Vitezen]

Make all of them skeptical of Kamui.

[GrayClouds23]

I must have missed the time when when pre-Meiji Japan was peace-loving. Your post is still faulty since Fates doesn't really try to explored the issue (see revealing Kamui is not a birth sibling to Ryoma and Co).

I just meant Incest was a thing back then. Hell if I remember correctly, incest was a thing in the middle ages too. Both countries are based off these places in game. Incest being in the game should be normal.

[Nanima]

I just meant Incest was a thing back then. Hell if I remember correctly, incest was a thing in the middle ages too. Both countries are based off these places in game. Incest being in the game should be normal.

I can't speak for Japan, but I am really getting sick of everyone here saying "Incest was totally happening all the time in the middle ages." then proceed to use examples from Reinaissance and early modern times.

Here I'll copy what I posted in the other thread:

"You are severly exaggerating the amount of incest in olden times. Sure, close cousin marriages happened from time to time, but they still needed the acceptance of the pope. There definitly was a stigma against incest in europe, it did not suddenly jump into existence the instant genetics were discovered. One of the most commonly used reasons for Annulment was 'consanguinity' or "I guess we are too closely related after all. haha my bad", which was mostly an excuse, but still seen as a valid argument. There was also a different understanding of incest than there is today. For instance, Henry VII. of England had a lot of trouble getting his son (the infamous Henry Number 8) and Catherine of Aragon married, because she had already been married to his first son. Marrying your brother-in-law was seen as incest.

I'll give you second cousins, but first cousins and aunt/nephew uncle/niece didn't happen as often as most people think (the Habsburg where an extreme example and shouldn't be seen as the norm). Incest between brother and sister was seen as just as repulsive as it is today."

Step-siblings would have likely also needed a special dispensation by the pope. But that by itself shows that it wasn't considered normal at all. Stop making blanket statement about things you clearly don't know much about.

The Kamui pseudo-incest is cheap because it never actually addresses any of these issues and is just an excuse to let you bone more hot people/cater to certain people's fetishes.

[GrayClouds23]

I can't speak for Japan, but I am really getting sick of everyone here saying "Incest was totally happening all the time in the middle ages." then proceed to use examples from Reinaissance and early modern times.

Here I'll copy what I posted in the other thread:

"You are severly exaggerating the amount of incest in olden times. Sure, close cousin marriages happened from time to time, but they still needed the acceptance of the pope. There definitly was a stigma against incest in europe, it did not suddenly jump into existence the instant genetics were discovered. One of the most commonly used reasons for Annulment was 'consanguinity' or "I guess we are too closely related after all. haha my bad", which was mostly an excuse, but still seen as a valid argument. There was also a different understanding of incest than there is today. For instance, Henry VII. of England had a lot of trouble getting his son (the infamous Henry Number 8) and Catherine of Aragon married, because she had already been married to his first son. Marrying your brother-in-law was seen as incest.

I'll give you second cousins, but first cousins and aunt/nephew uncle/niece didn't happen as often as most people think (the Habsburg where an extreme example and shouldn't be seen as the norm). Incest between brother and sister was seen as just as repulsive as it is today."

Step-siblings would have likely also needed a special dispensation by the pope. But that by itself shows that it wasn't considered normal at all. Stop making blanket statement about things you clearly don't know much about.

The Kamui pseudo-incest is cheap because it never actually addresses any of these issues and is just an excuse to let you bone more hot people/cater to certain people's fetishes.

Eh I feel as though it makes more sense with Hoshido though. I fear you guys might be right on this one though.

If anything, Intelligent Systems needs different writers for the next FE.

[blinkingbrave]

I guess... Hinoka and Ryouma could stand to have their flaws accentuated a lil more? I think they're fine now, too, because everything's there long as you look for it, but just making them even a lil more obviously messy and/or challenged by their surroundings in the main plot could certainly help put them on equal footing with their Nohrian foils. Not that their writing is bad or anything, but in comparison to Camilla and Marx, Hinoka and Ryouma struggle at times to appear to reach the same nuance.

Edit: And that Marx vs. Ryouma comparison is especially rough. One of the best written characters in the game vs the guy the narrative is afraid to fully color is unfortunate, especially since Ryouma does have all these flaws that the story doesn't quite convey to the extent it does his foil's. Side-effect of the narrative differences between the Nohr and Hoshido routes, I guess??

Oh geez, I feel like I'm one of the only people around here that want the "problematic" characters (Zero, Joker, Soliel, Eponine, and recently Leon etc) to stay the same. Rather than everyone being politically correct and normal, isn't this more interesting?

That recently confirmed bit of info on Leon actually made him more interesting to me. Also, Pieri's one of my faves.

Edited December 7, 2015 by blinkingbrave

[GrayClouds23]

I guess... Hinoka and Ryouma could stand to have their flaws accentuated a lil more? I think they're fine now, too, because everything's there long as you look for it, but just making them even a lil more obviously messy and/or challenged by their surroundings in the main plot could certainly help put them on equal footing with their Nohrian foils. Not that their writing is bad or anything, but in comparison to Camilla and Marx, Hinoka and Ryouma struggle at times to appear to reach the same nuance.

That recently confirmed bit of info on Leon actually made him more interesting to me. Also, Pieri's one of my faves.

Finally someone who liked Pieri. Seeing this Fanbase hate on my waifu makes me sad. I love insane people.

[twice]

Finally someone who liked Pieri.

I absolutely love Pieri!!! Especially her hair lol.

[blinkingbrave]

Finally someone who liked Pieri. Seeing this Fanbase hate on my waifu makes me sad. I love insane people.

Yesss! She's just fun to read. When you've got all these relatively good/normal/predictable characters interacting with each other, I think it's nice to have someone who mixes that up, even if that means the character herself doesn't behave... heroically. Same reason I like Joker, Camilla, and Zero.

Edited December 7, 2015 by blinkingbrave

[GrayClouds23]

Yesss! She's just fun to read. When you've got all these relatively good/normal/predictable characters interacting with each other, I think it's nice to have someone who mixes that up, even if that means the character herself doesn't behave... heroically. Same reason I like Joker, Camilla, and Zero.

Oh Zero and Pieri became my favorites the moment I realized they're personalities. Joker is basically me outside the interent lol.

[Grimalkenkid]

I believe the word you are looking for is "flat." You don't want them to dull down characters and make them flat. I will disagree with you on that matter, however. The sort of "problem" characters people complain about aren't better written because of their exaggerated and unpleasant personalities. Some of their behavior is downright disturbing such as Zero x Elise where Zero is sexually attracted to a child and specifically says "Elise-sama's tears...how wonderful." That doesn't say "interesting" to me, it's pretty messed up.

But to each their own. I suspect the localized version will be making some changes to these characters.

Hm... allow me to break up the intensity of this thread with a completely tasteless (and almost certainly offensive) joke.

This is the first thing I thought of when I read this post.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Grimalkenkid

[kantoorfarina]

I like Pieri, but seriously. They are basically Valter. They could have been so much more interesting if they had any supports about how the Nohr citizenship was uncomftorable with the retainer of the first prince being a psychopath, instead of being a cutesy, more comical character.

Camilla is just a huge waste of potential. Her supports with Leon and Elise are great, and I wish more of her supports were like that. Most of the time, her entire personality revolves around Kamui and she's really not a motherly character at all.
Felicia should just not exist. She is only there as fetish fuel. Any actual character development or real reason to exist she has is shared or done better by Flora/Jakob.
Garon is the most blatantly evil, mustache-twirling saturday morning cartoon villain I have ever seen. He's even worse than Validar.
This isn't about any character in particular, but marrying any of your siblings is incest and whoever thought that "he's not related to them so they're technically not family" is a valid excuse obviously has no siblings in real life. I hate how nonchalant this game is about incest in general, really.

I don't have many complaints with the gameplay. Odin could use some buffs, Ryouma is unbalanced as hell and Belka is basically Erk, except if Pent (in this case, Camilla) joined in the same chapter as them.

Edited December 8, 2015 by kantoorfarina

[Sasori]

I agree with the people saying Camilla needs an alteration and a pair of pants. The pants because I actually think she had a very nice design going untill they made it look stupid by making her go around in her underwear. Its just comes across as desperate. I would also tone done her Kamui obsession and make her more of an extremely mothering person. She can still make Kamui uncomfertable with her babying and she can have him as her favourite, but just don't make her want to sleep with him.

I would make Pieri...,less Pieri. She's basically evil from my point of view. If she keeps being a mass murderer thats fine too, but at least give a better reason why she's Xander's retainer. Have it be that her noble family is very powerfull or something because right now it doesn't make sense for someone as Xander would keep a lunatic around.

Speaking of Xander and to a lesser extend Leo. Make them support Garon's war. They don't have to like it, but at least make them express that Nohr could use the recources or something. Its a much better reason then being daddy boys.

I don't mind that Felicia is a clumsy maid, but I do mind that there's barely anything else to her. Collete for example was a fine character because being cute and clumsy was just a part of her, instead of that being 99% of what she is. So I would like her to be just a bit more grounded.

And finally the awakening trio. I don't really like them as the nohr siblings retainers, mostly because they don't really tell us anything about Nohr. I don't like them in the game at all actually, but them being normal mercenaries would give room for 3 characters who could be much more involved with the siblings. Childhood friends, retainers that sort of stuff.

For gameplay I would switch up Jacob and Felicia's growths. Felicia is supposed to be useless in taking care of people, but a complete powerhouse in the battlefield, while Jacob is very skilled at his butler job. I think it would be better if that translated to their stats with Jacob being the healing support unit and Felicia the better fighter.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Sasori

[GrayClouds23]

I read that Elise is Garon's concubine? That's pretty disturbing tbh...

[Grimalkenkid]

I read that Elise is Garon's concubine? That's pretty disturbing tbh...

Where did you read that? Because I'm pretty sure it's not true. (Unless one of his concubines just happened to also be named Elise...)

[GrayClouds23]

Where did you read that? Because I'm pretty sure it's not true. (Unless one of his concubines just happened to also be named Elise...)

I read it under her profile on the wiki... I hope I misread it.. Gonna go read it again. Ew

[blinkingbrave]

I read it under her profile on the wiki... I hope I misread it.. Gonna go read it again. Ew

Elise's mother was a concubine. Perhaps a typo/misread?

[GrayClouds23]

Elise's mother was a concubine. Perhaps a typo/misread?

I'm just misread it and I'm a huge idiot haha. Ignore me

[nordopolica]

I read it under her profile on the wiki... I hope I misread it.. Gonna go read it again. Ew

I believe the line you're referring to is "Elise is the youngest child of five in the Nohrian royal family and the daughter of Garon and one of his concubines."

As in, she is the daughter of Garon and the daughter of one of his concubines. The product of their union.

EDIT: Ah, ninja'd.

Edited December 7, 2015 by nordopolica