On Face-rubbing in Fates, interview from the Making-Of book

[NekoKnight]

I don't intend any offense but does the choice of Team B have to do with some culture in their society or are they just straight up dirty minded people in team B. Kind of a dumb question but I don't know much about Japan so I'm not being critic for something idk about. I don't like Anime or anything so idk.

It depends on how you want to define "part of their culture". In regards to freaky weird shit, there is a market for that in Japan but heavy otaku pandering isn't well received by the majority of Japanese society. There is a greater tolerance for a casual interest in anime, particularly for children and young adults but you should never "out" yourself as being a fan of the sort of stuff Team B vouches for.

[Radiance]

Touching I guess idk. You got a point though. I'm just weirded out about it. It just made me wonder what the developers of Team B were thinking, but it's their personal preference so it's their intrest. I don't agree with it but you're right that some people might agree with team b. Guess I never thought about it like that. I just thought of Japan as a unique culture, but some of the things they have like Anime I don't enjoy. Idk why but I dont. And I got way off topic lol

Edited December 24, 2015 by Alvic

[OakTree]

I followed IS down to the Earth's core with: Super Metroid, Paper Mario, Advanced Wars, Fire Emblem, Wario Ware Inc. Amazing RPG and strategic games.

Stop following when: Fire Emblem got weird and got rid of Shouzou Kaga's remaining magic, Paper Mario stopped feeling like Paper Mario, Wario Ware got stale, CN: STEAM was a thing instead of Advanced Wars, didn't ask or plead or even think about making a Metroid during the 6 year gap.

I still hold hope tho, for Advanced Wars, RPG's and Strategy games and Paper Mario. Is can still think IS will rush back to what made it great.

Im not trying to be rude and you are totally free to call me out if i am, but do you really think that if S.T.E.A.M didn't exist, IS would have made a new AW game instead?

"New and different, new and different." Change doesn't help make games get good money. Really though, tl;dr, it seems trying something new is bad compared to improving the game, or whatever the case is when it comes to Nintendo. Smash Brawl from Melee is an example. IS don't understand still.

And I'm sure, if the original team just announced they'd remaster Super Metroid, it would sell without much effort. Doesn't need to be 2.5D, and like I said, barely any effort. It would at least show that they can cater fans in long wait for a franchise which Nintendo seemed to almost forgotten.

I doubt it would sell enough to make up for possible production costs.

Edited December 25, 2015 by OakTree

[Loki Laufeyson]

Hmmm. . ."speed things along" means something, but I'd need to see by how much and all.

I'm sorry Fates cast, but Corrin's gonna spread his grimy hands all over your faces. In the name of science.

Ha, thats the spirit. My thing is doing that with a particular character who needs a particular support level before...spoilas happen. Just in case said character is too squishy to use in a certain situation.

Or if a unit is really shitty but like, has a good support with Kamui and i wanna see it without fielding said character.

[Great Geargia Gateway]

Im not trying to be rude and you are totally free to call me out if i am, but do you really think that if S.T.E.A.M didn't exist, IS would have made a new AW game instead?

I mean, they said they are not done with Advanced Wars, but they make Steam when they could have made Advanced Wars after Awakening. It was after Steam when they said that they weren't done with AW. But I don't get why they wouldn't make /aw after Awakening. Strategy games made by the same people. To me it doesn't make sense.

Really though, I bet Steam could have nothing to do with it.

[Pixelman]

It depends on how you want to define "part of their culture". In regards to freaky weird shit, there is a market for that in Japan but heavy otaku pandering isn't well received by the majority of Japanese society. There is a greater tolerance for a casual interest in anime, particularly for children and young adults but you should never "out" yourself as being a fan of the sort of stuff Team B vouches for.

Not to be rude, but how do you know this (i.e. have you been to Japan, do you have a source, etc.)

EDIT: Or is it just common sense and I'm being dumb

Edited December 25, 2015 by Pixelman

[NekoKnight]

Not to be rude, but how do you know this (i.e. have you been to Japan, do you have a source, etc.)

EDIT: Or is it just common sense and I'm being dumb

The former, don't worry. :P

I've been living in Japan for 3 years and work in Japanese public schools so I have a feel for the amount of anime that considered "normal".

[Radiance]

The former, don't worry. :P

I've been living in Japan for 3 years and work in Japanese public schools so I have a feel for the amount of anime that considered "normal".

Well the feature is optional so I'm good. Might even try it

[arvilino]

I mean, they said they are not done with Advanced Wars, but they make Steam when they could have made Advanced Wars after Awakening. It was after Steam when they said that they weren't done with AW. But I don't get why they wouldn't make /aw after Awakening. Strategy games made by the same people. To me it doesn't make sense.

Really though, I bet Steam could have nothing to do with it.

Days of Ruin was their attempt to boost Advance Wars popularity by changing the formula but it didn't work(it was more popular than Dual Strike but not the original 2). Whereas after Awakening's success they obviously did another Fire Emblem to build on the new found success.

With Advance Wars there's two issues:

1. The Advance Wars 1, 2 and Dual Strike did terribly and by Dual Strike despite the fact the DS was a much better selling system it dropped significantly in sales.

2. Their attempt to refresh the series with Days of Ruin was more successful than Dual Strike but it didn't revitalise the series, it was still under 1 & 2 even though again its ont he DS.

So both styles of Advance Wars they attempted are on the down and out. The original formula doing weaker than the new one and the new one not being strong enough boost to build on. Worst of all the series being stone cold dead in Japan it isn't a surprise it is something IS has on the backburner(I'd assume another Paper Mario would come first as their next big project). Although S.T.E.A.M didn't do well at all, a brand new IP(e.g. Pushmo which has 4 games already) that could potentially be more successful is more desirable than an IP they know won't do well with the/a new style and they really know won't do well with the original style.

Edited December 25, 2015 by arvilino

[Espinosa]

9. capture (first seen in FE5, and it took until FE14 to come back)

Fates capture doesn't give you any weapons though (afaik).

[Sunwoo]

Fates capture doesn't give you any weapons though (afaik).

It doesn't. I'm pretty sure it doesn't work the same way as FE5 "capture", but apparently it's still capture nonetheless.

[Jedi]

Yeah capture in FE5, allowed you to pilfer all of an enemies equipment and let them be on their way. Also made it so you didn't kill certain bosses for both their weapons and Gaiden/Plot reasons.

FE14's looks like, "Oh I captured you, wanna join my army?". Which I assume in the end it is?

[Dark Sage]

If one of the two debug team were ok with it for there was a divide between two the feature has appeal to a certain group. I don't exactly know who Team B(or Team A for that matter) are to judge them personally but if they represent some active demand its clear that the feature itself would be something that they know a sizeable group would enjoy.

Also we know players like Team B enjoy it and that there's a divide in opinion on the matter between developers, playtesters and potentially players. The only way the bolded would be my viewpoint is if it was just Maeda who wanted it in and both Team A and Team B didn't like it and I was still suggesting it should be in because "somebody might like it". I'm saying it should be in because its known that a number of people do like it(plus it isn't mandatory).

What does this add to the game though? I suppose it can add a bit of amusement and there's little doubt that team B/the otaku audience have jerked off to their favorite characters and seiyuus saying lewd lines, but internet porn exists for that kind of thing and it does an infinitely better job than FE amie's softcore, half-assed implementation.

It also destroys the illusion that these characters are people and not simply blowup dolls we can just poke and prod without any consequence. Why is it that people like Team B are important to cater to but people who actually want to be able to take the characters seriously should go take a hike? God forbid the otaku walk away from this game without a steel hard-on.

[Namarid]

I don't think the feature is that bad considering that you do learn a couple interesting things about the characters and what they think.

One skinship line from Felicia that I will always remember is where she talks about not abandoning her because she's clumsy,which I found to be an interesting part of her character.

They could of done a different way to be closer to characters, since face rubbing is kinda intimate and creepy since you can do it regardless of support levels. Maybe doing a training exercise minigame would of been better.

If the feature was restricted to s ranked characters it would of been better, heck maybe if you were just allowed to pat the younger sisters heads. Head patting seems a lot more normal than face rubbing.

[arvilino]

What does this add to the game though? I suppose it can add a bit of amusement and there's little doubt that team B/the otaku audience have jerked off to their favorite characters and seiyuus saying lewd lines, but internet porn exists for that kind of thing and it does an infinitely better job than FE amie's softcore, half-assed implementation.

It also destroys the illusion that these characters are people and not simply blowup dolls we can just poke and prod without any consequence. Why is it that people like Team B are important to cater to but people who actually want to be able to take the characters seriously should go take a hike? God forbid the otaku walk away from this game without a steel hard-on.

That's a very similar viewpoint(sans the porno part) to one that was bandied about when Shadow Dragon introduced class swapping. Again I'll state the games aren't made for just a single person/viewpoint and the reason the mechanic is in is so different people can enjoy different aspects of the game in another way, skinshipping is mostly fluff and class changing is a mechanic. Skinship may not add anything for you or for me for that matter. Class Swapping despite being a mechanic is similar there a number who say it adds nothing on the ground it "removes the characters identity" yet it adds something for players like me as I like using the mechanic. These features are for the people who do like that, within reason it's just another way to enjoy the game and it doesn't necessarily have to be for pornography.

"Destroying the Illusion" is also a very subjective thing, destroying the illusion is down to the individual person and their suspension of disbelief but it doesn't stop what happens in the rest of the game from counting. Much like how class changing Abel from Cavalier to Archer doesn't remove that he's a Akaneian Knight or the fact Corrin can touch the faces of the army for bonding or whatever doesn't make the characters not what they are in the rest of the game regardless of how good/bad they're portrayed. To compare to other games the fact Mario's face can be stretched and contorted on the start screen Super Mario 64 doesn't cheapen the character(Especially considering it must have been liked to the point a similar feature was in some Mario Party games and the remake) or if you complete Metroid in under 1 hour and Samus removes her armour down to a bikini doesn't mean her saving the Galaxy from the Space Pirates and Metroids didn't happen. All of these are going to "destroy the illusion" for someone or frustrate another. But not everyone and for others it might be nice or interesting to have which is why they'd cater to Team B in atleast keeping the mechanic but toning it down in instead of Team A completley and removing it(for a gain of nothing).

Not to mention expecting the developers of games like Advance Wars, Wario Ware and Paper Mario where in the first most entries in the series have characters that swing wildly between treating wars as fun and serious and the latter two at times they actively break the fourth wall or create intentionally contrived situations as jokes(e.g. Paper Mario being "cursed" with useful abilities in TTYD) to be resricted like isn't realistic. I think in another topic it was mentioned IS had a reshuffling of their development teams and I remember reading they at one point prior combined their Advance Wars and Fire Emblem Team so it's not a surprise they'll have serious parts to the game while experimenting with vastly different tones in separate/side mechanics.

Edited December 26, 2015 by arvilino

[Radiance]

Kind of imagine skinship in english.

[Water Mage]

Kind of imagine skinship in english.

Well, skinship has been pretty confirmed to appear in the english version, so it won't too hard to imagine very soon.

[exizel]

I kind of want to see videos of the english cast recording the skinship lines.

Edited December 26, 2015 by exizel

[Irysa]

That's a very similar viewpoint(sans the porno part) to one that was bandied about when Shadow Dragon introduced class swapping. Again I'll state the games aren't made for just a single person/viewpoint and the reason the mechanic is in is so different people can enjoy different aspects of the game in another way, skinshipping is mostly fluff and class changing is a mechanic. Skinship may not add anything for you or for me for that matter. Class Swapping despite being a mechanic is similar there a number who say it adds nothing on the ground it "removes the characters identity" yet it adds something for players like me as I like using the mechanic. These features are for the people who do like that, within reason it's just another way to enjoy the game and it doesn't necessarily have to be for pornography.

False equivilancy much? There's an extreme gap between "main character invites person to their room so MC can rub their face and the recieving character says dumb hero worship pandering shit" and "Game allows units in an army to take on different class roles". One has some strong awkward social connotations and implications, the other implies anyone can learn to do anything.

Don't get me wrong, FE11 example's complaints about reducing individual character identity have legitimacy. However there are some pretty obvious ways to go about handling that without instigating the problem. One of my own suggestions was akin to what FE13 ended up doing in giving character's their own reclass sets. I won't get too much into it now, (FE13 didn't execute it very well either), but there's mechanical relevancy and a chance to give different characters more uniqueness compared to their counterparts with such a system. And when we talk about the mechanical possibilities it brings to the came, there are numerous interesting and different ways to utilise it in strategies.

I cannot see how My Room can somehow be "improved" in that respect. The only way to approach such a thing in terms of the complaints it generates are completely reductionist because of it's basic premise. It doesn't "add" things beyond catering to an aesthetic preference.

"Destroying the Illusion" is also a very subjective thing, destroying the illusion is down to the individual person and their suspension of disbelief but it doesn't stop what happens in the rest of the game from counting. Much like how class changing Abel from Cavalier to Archer doesn't remove that he's a Akaneian Knight or the fact Corrin can touch the faces of the army for bonding or whatever doesn't make the characters not what they are in the rest of the game regardless of how good/bad they're portrayed. To compare to other games the fact Mario's face can be stretched and contorted on the start screen Super Mario 64 doesn't cheapen the character(Especially considering it must have been liked to the point a similar feature was in some Mario Party games and the remake) or if you complete Metroid in under 1 hour and Samus removes her armour down to a bikini doesn't mean her saving the Galaxy from the Space Pirates and Metroids didn't happen. All of these are going to "destroy the illusion" for someone or frustrate another. But not everyone and for others it might be nice or interesting to have which is why they'd cater to Team B in atleast keeping the mechanic but toning it down in instead of Team A completley and removing it(for a gain of nothing).

Nitpicks;

• It's actually pretty plausible that Abel can use a bow...most knights are trained in many forms of weaponry. If you want something weird, it's how people can be reclassed into Mages and the like - there isn't any real way to reconcile that logic internally.
• Mario Party has no pretense of taking itself seriously in any capacity. Generally speaking, Mario as a franchise doesn't have pretenses of seriousness anyway, there's nothing to cheapen in the first place.
• There's no implication that somehow any of what Samus did didn't happen and that wasn't the point. It's about whether or not it undermines what went on in the game. Does it undermine that? I think that's arguable, and it is nowhere near as cut and dry. Why is the player "rewarded" for playing well by seeing Samus in more revealing outfits? I think that the initial logic for this is mostly about "revealing" that Samus is a woman, and it ended up becoming a series staple afterwards, although it's notable that as opposed to just being oogling material they started to actually function as expansions to the story in some ways as the series went on.

To the main point, you're misunderstanding his argument. The removal of the suspension of disbelief is not "because Corrin can touch the character's faces and that's weird", it's the entire contextual way the characters have been created and set up to function primarily as playthings. The design decisions BEHIND THE CREATION OF THESE CHARACTERS are fundamentally being handled differently to previous precedent. Not because "the characters have sex appeal" or "they have gimmicks", but because the characters within the world are primarily defined by logic that comes from outside their own videogame; how they can function as gratification to the player. This is why even the fucking developers make jokes like this. The facerubbing nonsense is simply one of the strongest indicators of this, the problem does not end with this one mechanic and it's removal, even if it would be alleviated somewhat by it's removal.

Fictional characters don't have rights, they don't have to be respected etc, beacuse they are fictional. There is no actual moral problem with what goes on in the game, nor is there a moral problem with this approach to design. But there is a stark difference between appreciating a character as a representation of an actual person and appreciating a character as a "thing" that appeals to some aspects of one's psyche in some manner or other. The latter approach to character creation is overwhelmingly abundant these days, especially in videogames, and that's lamentable not because it's "bad" for it to exist, but because it's "bad" for the alternative to be so underrepresented.

Not to mention expecting the developers of games like Advance Wars, Wario Ware and Paper Mario where in the first most entries in the series have characters that swing wildly between treating wars as fun and serious and the latter two at times they actively break the fourth wall or create intentionally contrived situations as jokes(e.g. Paper Mario being "cursed" with useful abilities in TTYD) to be resricted like isn't realistic. I think in another topic it was mentioned IS had a reshuffling of their development teams and I remember reading they at one point prior combined their Advance Wars and Fire Emblem Team so it's not a surprise they'll have serious parts to the game while experimenting with vastly different tones in separate/side mechanics.

Is it really so bizzare to expect a franchise that has primarily leant towards a more "take it at face value" approach for over 10 games to continue as such?

Fair point about the teams mixing, but that's a rationalisation rather than an excuse.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Irysa

[Giga Man]

They kinda read my mind about having us only touch our spouses after marriage. In Awakening, I always wanted more things to do to interact with my wives. There were the Scramble maps, which were great, but the avatar could only talk to the 4 specific poll winner characters of each map, which made me mad because I'm not into any of them (except Lucina).

What I'm trying to say is I only plan to skinship with my spouse and my kid(s). Maybe I'll use it before marriage, but only on a character I KNOW I'm gonna tie the knot with. So I think (lol). I'm just glad there are more features to let you interact with your units. That's all I could ever ask for.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Giga Man