Controversial Aspects in Fates? (Possible Censorship in NA?)

[ckc22]

Ah this topic. For the most part my opinions are as much as everyone else; I just personally wish they keep Pieri and Zero as they are right now because I love both of their characters so much. Plus not only that, imo it's nice to get deliberately disturbed and disgusted in a game once in a while. It's part of the fun of making a serious and dark overtone. This is largely one of the reasons why the Drakengard and NieR titles are amongst one of my favorite series' (call me a masochist, what of it. L+ is quite the thing). So yeah, it'd be nice for them to cater to older players, even if a majority of the FE fanbase now came in from Awakening rather than sticking through it for the past quarter-century or so. But this is Nintendo sadly, which censors bikini outfits in M rated titles released in the west (though imho I find Zelda and Samus' outfits just as nice.) Anyways, I really hope that at some point they will gradually return to all the darker themes they had back in the N64 era.

Really? Everything I've read about Zero makes him sound like a sad stereotype that plays on popular culture tropes of gay people that are like 25+ years old at this point.

[Kanethedragon]

Really? Everything I've read about Zero makes him sound like a sad stereotype that plays on popular culture tropes of gay people that are like 25+ years old at this point.

From what I've read I don't see him as that stereotypical. Let alone it being a gay one (I don't remember that many sadist gay stereotypes out there, so I didn't know it was a thing). I've mostly understood his stereotype as that horrible, cruel, vile, and grossly narcissistic type that is kinda common among the S&M stereotypes. Regardless, I like how off-putting it is which is pretty much what his character is supposed to be. It's kinda the situation of a love-hate hate-love relationship that has its surprisingly unique charm. It'd be a shame to make him anything less, though that sadly does seem to be the case. Hopefully though with his localized name being Niles, they'll at least make him out to be cheesy just like the characters from Frazier and The Nanny. Though I personally find that more stereotypical, and generally kills a large part of his character.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

i think the stereotype that ckc22 was talking about was the "all bi sexual's also act sexually deprived and act perverted all the time"

granted i know nothing about the character other then that they couldn't have picked a worse looking bisexual for me to fuck, gimmie real men like Nobunaga Oda! (an actual bisexual)

Edited January 18, 2016 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[solrocknroll]

i think the stereotype that ckc22 was talking about was the "all bi sexual's also act sexually deprived and act perverted all the time"

granted i know nothing about the character other then that they couldn't have picked a worse looking bisexual for me to fuck, gimmie real men like Nobunaga Oda! (an actual bisexual)

yeah give me odin please

well okay maybe that'd also be stereotypical but odin's outfit is amazing

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

i think the stereotype that ckc22 was talking about was the "all bi sexual's also act sexually deprived and act perverted all the time"

granted i know nothing about the character other then that they couldn't have picked a worse looking bisexual for me to fuck, gimmie real men like Nobunaga Oda! (an actual bisexual)

!!PETITION TO ADD KOEI'S SUPER HOT NOBUNAGA ODA IN HOSHIDO FOR BISEXY MARRIAGE CANDIDATE!!

One thing that irks me about Zero that he is not much the gay option as much as he is the yaoi option. His whole character could pop up from a tragic raunchy yaoi manga (or from an otome game, but the differences are subtle here lololol), and I don't see many gay men into him (not to mention most of his fanart is from fujoshi).

Look, I don't want to offend anyone, and, I am aware not every gay man will not like Zero, I am aware some gay men will still marry him happily, but I dunno, he seems for the most part to be fanservice for fujoshi, not fanservice for gay guys. Hence why this is so iffy-- I don't feel like he was done for the people who you think he was done for (gay and bisexual men who want to marry another man in-game), but for the slice of market that will put together Takumi and Leo because it's hawt. It's a bit saddening but what can you do? Same thing for Shara-- she is there for the guys who in Awakening wanted to put together Female Robin and Tharja, but couldn't.

And for the record, I like Zero, I am a fujoshi and I drew him inappropriately.

[NekoKnight]

!!PETITION TO ADD KOEI'S SUPER HOT NOBUNAGA ODA IN HOSHIDO FOR BISEXY MARRIAGE CANDIDATE!!

One thing that irks me about Zero that he is not much the gay option as much as he is the yaoi option. His whole character could pop up from a tragic raunchy yaoi manga (or from an otome game, but the differences are subtle here lololol), and I don't see many gay men into him (not to mention most of his fanart is from fujoshi).

Look, I don't want to offend anyone, and, I am aware not every gay man will not like Zero, I am aware some gay men will still marry him happily, but I dunno, he seems for the most part to be fanservice for fujoshi, not fanservice for gay guys. Hence why this is so iffy-- I don't feel like he was done for the people who you think he was done for (gay and bisexual men who want to marry another man in-game), but for the slice of market that will put together Takumi and Leo because it's hawt. It's a bit saddening but what can you do? Same thing for Shara-- she is there for the guys who in Awakening wanted to put together Female Robin and Tharja, but couldn't.

And for the record, I like Zero, I am a fujoshi and I drew him inappropriately.

Zero has gay fans as well but I'd agree that he likely exists to satisfy fujoshi rather than gay men.

[Tryhard]

One thing that irks me about Zero that he is not much the gay option as much as he is the yaoi option.

Look, I don't want to offend anyone, and, I am aware not every gay man will not like Zero, I am aware some gay men will still marry him happily, but I dunno, he seems for the most part to be fanservice for fujoshi, not fanservice for gay guys.

Isn't that pretty much how homosexuality fanservice (and even homosexuality in itself is supposedly looked down upon IIRC) is looked at in general in Japan? I thought it was pretty disregarded as a fujoshi thing.

Ain't saying that it is right just that it's not surprising.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Tryhard

[Water Mage]

The interesting about it, is that Niles/Zero and Shara weren't supposed to be the only homosexual options.

Both Silas and Azura were supposed to be homosexual options as well.

Makes you wonder how gay marriage would be seen in Fates if these two options were kept.

And considering these guys join you in all three routes, gay and lesbian options wouldn't be exclusive to one version or the other.

I wonder why they were removed.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Water Mage

[FireRuby14]

The interesting about it, is that Niles/Zero and Shara weren't supposed to be the only homosexual options.

Both Silas and Azura were supposed to be homosexual options as well.

Makes you wonder how gay marriage would be seen in Fates if these two options were kept.

And considering these guys join you in all three routes, gay and lesbian options wouldn't be exclusive to one version or the other.

I wonder why they were removed.

I believe people wanted Silas as a bisexual option but I don't think he was ever one. And as for Azura I really don't trust the "screenshot" of a Notepad that could've easily been edited to say that she supposedly had a support with Male Kanna when same sex pairings in Fates have no children.

[Water Mage]

I believe people wanted Silas as a bisexual option but I don't think he was ever one. And as for Azura I really don't trust the "screenshot" of a Notepad that could've easily been edited to say that she supposedly had a support with Male Kanna when same sex pairings in Fates have no children.

If I'm not mistaken they did find leftover data implying that Silas could S-support with Male Corrin and Azura could S-support wit Female Corrin. But I could be wrong, as it was a while ago.

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

Isn't that pretty much how homosexuality fanservice (and even homosexuality in itself is supposedly looked down upon IIRC) is looked at in general in Japan? I thought it was pretty disregarded as a fujoshi thing.

Ain't saying that it is right just that it's not surprising.

Yeah, it's really obvious and it is how it goes in Japan, and it's not surprising at all if you know how it goes there, but I still wanted to point it out, cuz I know in America and Europe it will mostly be seen as a failed way to try to be inclusive.

Also, as much as I like him to be nude and crude, I feel Zero will be changed to be less offensive, because as he is right now, he fits the by-the-book trope of the dirty bisexual.

That's one thing I expect from the localization/censorship/yadda yadda.

---

I also heard Aqua could've been a gay option, and I am 60% sure her support with MKanna is on the game's files. I guess that, if it was real, it was scrapped due to Japan's view on homosexuality.

By the way people! Here is a cool article on localization, complete with interviews to the likes of TED WOOLSEY! It's very probable that you've already read it, but I still want to post it to give a different insight to this business:

http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/localization/localization.htm

[Duke of Dozel]

I also heard Aqua could've been a gay option, and I am 60% sure her support with MKanna is on the game's files. I guess that, if it was real, it was scrapped due to Japan's view on homosexuality.

It was probably scrapped because Aqua supporting a male Kanna wouldnt make any sense.

[December Knight]

I also heard Aqua could've been a gay option, and I am 60% sure her support with MKanna is on the game's files. I guess that, if it was real, it was scrapped due to Japan's view on homosexuality.

But Aqua and male!Kanna don't have a support script, there is a game file for one but it doesn't have a script/text dump (like how Belka has a mother/child support with Kinu but doesn't have a support with Nishiki in anyway, not even a blank support script) and Female!Kamui doesn't have a mother/child support with Shigure (although male!Kanna and Shigure do have a sibling support but it's just Kanna's version) and there is no cut S Rank with female!Kamui and Aqua. Someone on Tumblr had made a post about the Aqua and Kanna thing and whether or not Aqua was a cut gay option. I'll link it if anyone wants to read it.

Link : http://agoddamn.tumblr.com/post/132573818700/mmm-is-the-rumor-about-aqua-originally-being-a

I'm so sorry if I sounded rude but I thought the Aqua (and Silas) being cut gay option(s) rumor kinda ended some time ago.

[Water Mage]

But Aqua and male!Kanna don't have a support script, there is a game file for one but it doesn't have a script/text dump (like how Belka has a mother/child support with Kinu but doesn't have a support with Nishiki in anyway, not even a blank support script) and Female!Kamui doesn't have a mother/child support with Shigure (although male!Kanna and Shigure do have a sibling support but it's just Kanna's version) and there is no cut S Rank with female!Kamui and Aqua. Someone on Tumblr had made a post about the Aqua and Kanna thing and whether or not Aqua was a cut gay option. I'll link it if anyone wants to read it.

Link : http://agoddamn.tumblr.com/post/132573818700/mmm-is-the-rumor-about-aqua-originally-being-a

I'm so sorry if I sounded rude but I thought the Aqua (and Silas) being cut gay option(s) rumor kinda ended some time ago.

So it was just a rumor?

I swear I heard people saying they found files of a Silas and Male Corrin S-Rank Support, but I guess I heard wrong.

[SilverPants]

The interesting about it, is that Niles/Zero and Shara weren't supposed to be the only homosexual options.

Both Silas and Azura were supposed to be homosexual options as well.

Makes you wonder how gay marriage would be seen in Fates if these two options were kept.

And considering these guys join you in all three routes, gay and lesbian options wouldn't be exclusive to one version or the other.

I wonder why they were removed.

What a missed oppurtunity. Whether or not this was planned, they could have had two characters that were available in all routes but instead we got Zero and the daughter of some guy who I will never use.

[Duke of Dozel]

Soliel not being a gay option was the dumbest move this game could make.

[December Knight]

So it was just a rumor?

I swear I heard people saying they found files of a Silas and Male Corrin S-Rank Support, but I guess I heard wrong.

I think so, but I don't really know.

I've never heard about the Silas and male!Kamui S Rank though but I'm going to guess that was just someone actively lying or spreading misinformation (unless someone posted a script for it, then well I guess I was wrong and I apologize for that). If you really want to know then just ask the person in the link, I'm sure she will answer you.

Edited January 19, 2016 by December Knight

[EJ107]

Having a male character that is explicitly attracted to men and women is so rare in Japanese media that I honestly don't find Zero/Niles to be particularly stereotypical at all. The stereotypical thing to do would have been to have Silas say he only likes girls but suddenly fall for M!Kamui because "if it's you it's ok", or to have a lot of homoerotic tension between the guys but have none of them actually be interested in each other that way.

Of course it's not exactly ground breaking here in the west, but I give it credit for being slightly more nuanced than a lot of the stuff I see coming from Japan.

I'm sure it's primarily aimed at the Fujoshi market, but I care less about who it's aimed at and more about how it's actually presented. Shara isn't handled as well in my opinion, but neither of them are particularly egregious. Soleil on the other hand...

Edited January 19, 2016 by EJ107

[Vexxion]

Well, I don't think they're gonna be too hard on Elise, because canonically Lissa was 14 in the beginning of Awakening.

[ckc22]

I'm reserving judgment until I see how all of it is localized. If it ends up being a stereotypical homophobic mess then I'd prefer that they just don't include it in the future.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Soliel not being a gay option was the dumbest move this game could make.

I actually really agree with this.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Having a male character that is explicitly attracted to men and women is so rare in Japanese media that I honestly don't find Zero/Niles to be particularly stereotypical at all. The stereotypical thing to do would have been to have Silas say he only likes girls but suddenly fall for M!Kamui because "if it's you it's ok", or to have a lot of homoerotic tension between the guys but have none of them actually be interested in each other that way.

Of course it's not exactly ground breaking here in the west, but I give it credit for being slightly more nuanced than a lot of the stuff I see coming from Japan.

I'm sure it's primarily aimed at the Fujoshi market, but I care less about who it's aimed at and more about how it's actually presented. Shara isn't handled as well in my opinion, but neither of them are particularly egregious. Soleil on the other hand...

I'm pretty sure that Niles and Shara being the 'gay' options was just Nintendo and IS 'testing the waters' as it were. Like you said, straight(hah!) examples of gay characters are rare in Japanese media, so I believe that IS was starting of with characters that would be 'safe' and relatively uncontroversial to make romanceable by same-sex MU's (Niles being a flirty/pervy bisexual and Shara's same-sex romance being more 'If it's you, it's okay' than full-on homosexuality) and that we'll see more homosexual/bisexual characters in future installments as well as straighter (hah!) examples, as opposed to single-target homosexuality.

Let's use some Bioware games as an example. I'll also be including release dates to better emphasis my point:

[spoiler=This might be a bit long, so I'll save space]

Mass Effect 1 (Nov 16, 2007): One human romanceable character for male Shepards (Ashley Williams) and female Shepards (Kaiden Alenko) and two aliens (Liara T'Soni, a companion and Sha'ira, a Consort) of the same species who are romanceable by both. Although the Asari (the alien species in question) are a mono-gender species, they are very feminine in appearance and thus, are considered the 'gay' option for female Shepards. Male Shepards cannot have sex or start a relationship with another male. The inclusion of a 'same-sex' romance was subject to media controversy and rumours of the game being pornographic (even thought the supposed 'sex-scenes' were short and very weak-sauce). It was even banned in Singapore for some time before the game was allowed in with an M-18 rating, with the f!Shapard/Liara sex scene being the main reason for the ban.

Mass Effect 2 (Jan 26, 2010): If you import a save file, your relationship from the first game will be carried over and you can even choose to cheat on them with one of the new crew mates (which I thought was a nice touch, plenty of opportunity to develop headcanons and develop the character). There are three new romanceable options for male Shepard (Miranda Lawson, Jack and Tali'Zorah vas Neema) and for a female Shepard (Thane Krios, Jacob Taylor and Garrus Vakarian). All of them are opposite gendered. There are also three bisexual options (that don't grant the achievement for completing a romance arc, which has some pretty unfortunate implications). Two of them are Asari (one of them chooses not to start a relationship, although they express interest in both genders when flirted with and the other is a Space Succubus who can only be slept with after the final mission and gives a game-over screen) and a human female. Male Shepards still cannot have sex with or start a relationship with another male.

Mass Effect 3 (Mar 6, 2012): There are three new human characters; one gay character for male Shepard (Steve Cortez. Also, finally!), one gay character for female Shepard (Samantha Traynor) and a bisexual one (Diana Allers, who doesn't give the achievement for completing a romance arc). Kaiden Alenko, the straight female romanceable companion from the first game is now bisexual and can be romanced by a male Shepard. You can also have some romantic happenings in the Citadel DLC with an Asari (the one who chooses not to start a relationship in the second game), a human male (female Shepard only) and a male alien (who female Shepards can have a one-night stand with if no romance has been initiated yet), all of whom will not give the achievement for completing a romance arc

Dragon Age Origins (Nov, 2009. Dates vary depending on Country): One straight option for both males and females (Morrigan and Alistair respectively) and two bisexual options (Leliana, a female former assassin/spy/saboteur and Zeveran Arainai, a male former(?) assassin who's very flirty and will betray the part if his approval isn't high enough). There's also a metric fuck-ton of minor romances from origin stories, brothels and other such things with different gender requirements (mostly bisexual though, if I remember correctly) that I can't even begin to be bothered to research.

Dragon Age 2 (Mar 8, 2011- Feb 2, 2012): There are five romanceable companions; four bisexuals (Fenris and Anders are male, Isabella and Merril are female) and one who can only be married by a female Hawke (Sebastian Vael, who is chaste and therefore cannot be slept with). There are also prostitues in a brothel (including one that has a role in a quest) that can be slept with by either gender and Zeveran, who returns for one quest and can be slept with by either gender (Isabella can join for a three-way).

Dragon Age Inquisitions (Nov 18-21, 2014): Much stricter, as some characters will only be romanceable with characters of a certain race/races (Umm...Phrasing?). Pursuable romances include:

Cassandra Pentaghast: Human female who can only be romanced by a male Inquisitor.

Dorian Pavus: Human male who can only be romanced by a male Inquisitor. Will start a relationship with the Iron Bull if neither of them are romanced by an Inquisitor, as revealed through party banter.

Blackwall: Male human who can only be romanced by a female Inquisitor

Sera: Female elf who can only be romanced by a female Inquisitor

Iron Bull: Male Qunari romanceable by any Inquisitor

Josephine Montilyet: Female human romanceable by any Inquisitor

Cullen Rutherford: Human male romanceable only by human and elven female Inquisitors

Solas: Male elf romanceable only by elven female Inquisitors

TL;DR- IS and Nintendo are taking baby steps, so lets give them the benefit of the doubt for now.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Phillius

[EJ107]

I'm pretty sure that Niles and Shara being the 'gay' options was just Nintendo and IS 'testing the waters' as it were. Like you said, straight(hah!) examples of gay characters are rare in Japanese media, so I believe that IS was starting of with characters that would be 'safe' and relatively uncontroversial to make romanceable by same-sex MU's (Niles being a flirty/pervy bisexual and Shara's same-sex romance being more 'If it's you, it's okay' than full-on homosexuality) and that we'll see more homosexual/bisexual characters in future installments as well as straighter (hah!) examples, as opposed to single-target homosexuality.

Let's use some Bioware games as an example. I'll also be including release dates to better emphasis my point:

[spoiler=This might be a bit long, so I'll save space]

Mass Effect 1 (Nov 16, 2007): One human romanceable character for male Shepards (Ashley Williams) and female Shepards (Kaiden Alenko) and two aliens (Liara T'Soni, a companion and Sha'ira, a Consort) of the same species who are romanceable by both. Although the Asari (the alien species in question) are a mono-gender species, they are very feminine in appearance and thus, are considered the 'gay' option for female Shepards. Male Shepards cannot have sex or start a relationship with another male. The inclusion of a 'same-sex' romance was subject to media controversy and rumours of the game being pornographic (even thought the supposed 'sex-scenes' were short and very weak-sauce). It was even banned in Singapore for some time before the game was allowed in with an M-18 rating, with the f!Shapard/Liara sex scene being the main reason for the ban.

Mass Effect 2 (Jan 26, 2010): If you import a save file, your relationship from the first game will be carried over and you can even choose to cheat on them with one of the new crew mates (which I thought was a nice touch, plenty of opportunity to develop headcanons and develop the character). There are three new romanceable options for male Shepard (Miranda Lawson, Jack and Tali'Zorah vas Neema) and for a female Shepard (Thane Krios, Jacob Taylor and Garrus Vakarian). All of them are opposite gendered. There are also three bisexual options (that don't grant the achievement for completing a romance arc, which has some pretty unfortunate implications). Two of them are Asari (one of them chooses not to start a relationship, although they express interest in both genders when flirted with and the other is a Space Succubus who can only be slept with after the final mission and gives a game-over screen) and a human female. Male Shepards still cannot have sex with or start a relationship with another male.

Mass Effect 3 (Mar 6, 2012): There are three new human characters; one gay character for male Shepard (Steve Cortez. Also, finally!), one gay character for female Shepard (Samantha Traynor) and a bisexual one (Diana Allers, who doesn't give the achievement for completing a romance arc). Kaiden Alenko, the straight female romanceable companion from the first game is now bisexual and can be romanced by a male Shepard. You can also have some romantic happenings in the Citadel DLC with an Asari (the one who chooses not to start a relationship in the second game), a human male (female Shepard only) and a male alien (who female Shepards can have a one-night stand with if no romance has been initiated yet), all of whom will not give the achievement for completing a romance arc

Dragon Age Origins (Nov, 2009. Dates vary depending on Country): One straight option for both males and females (Morrigan and Alistair respectively) and two bisexual options (Leliana, a female former assassin/spy/saboteur and Zeveran Arainai, a male former(?) assassin who's very flirty and will betray the part if his approval isn't high enough). There's also a metric fuck-ton of minor romances from origin stories, brothels and other such things with different gender requirements (mostly bisexual though, if I remember correctly) that I can't even begin to be bothered to research.

Dragon Age 2 (Mar 8, 2011- Feb 2, 2012): There are five romanceable companions; four bisexuals (Fenris and Anders are male, Isabella and Merril are female) and one who can only be married by a female Hawke (Sebastian Vael, who is chaste and therefore cannot be slept with). There are also prostitues in a brothel (including one that has a role in a quest) that can be slept with by either gender and Zeveran, who returns for one quest and can be slept with by either gender (Isabella can join for a three-way).

Dragon Age Inquisitions (Nov 18-21, 2014): Much stricter, as some characters will only be romanceable with characters of a certain race/races (Umm...Phrasing?). Pursuable romances include:

Cassandra Pentaghast: Human female who can only be romanced by a male Inquisitor.

Dorian Pavus: Human male who can only be romanced by a male Inquisitor. Will start a relationship with the Iron Bull if neither of them are romanced by an Inquisitor, as revealed through party banter.

Blackwall: Male human who can only be romanced by a female Inquisitor

Sera: Female elf who can only be romanced by a female Inquisitor

Iron Bull: Male Qunari romanceable by any Inquisitor

Josephine Montilyet: Female human romanceable by any Inquisitor

Cullen Rutherford: Human male romanceable only by human and elven female Inquisitors

Solas: Male elf romanceable only by elven female Inquisitors

TL;DR- IS and Nintendo are taking baby steps, so lets give them the benefit of the doubt for now.

Yeah, I think a lot of people forget that even the most inclusive western developers like Bioware have only started being so very recently, and even some of their most recent stuff has been met with criticism. I was never particularly keen on the "Fenris/Merrill are whatever sexuality you want them to be" stance Bioware's writers initially took and there's also SWTOR, which didn't have any same gender romance or flirt options on release. Then all of that drama when they added same gender flirt options in a pay-gated DLC...

With this in mind Fates is far better than I would ever have expected from a Japanese company and I think a lot of people are being unreasonably harsh on it. Same gender marriage is something I've never seen a Japanese work address before, let alone include. I'd like to believe it's a positive sign, but only time will tell.

Edited January 20, 2016 by EJ107

[Anomalocaris]

I don't understand the NEED for baby steps personally. Like, is it going to somehow overwhelm them or destroy the world if they *gasp* included more than one same-sex choice for each gender, or *gasp* didn't restrict them based on game version?

You know when you dip your toe in the water because it's rather cold so you slowly work your way in? They're doing that except the water isn't cold at all.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Anomalocaris

[Time the Crestfallen]

I don't understand the NEED for baby steps personally. Like, is it going to somehow overwhelm them or destroy the world if they *gasp* included more than one same-sex choice for each gender, or *gasp* didn't restrict them based on game version?

You know when you dip your toe in the water because it's rather cold so you slowly work your way in? They're doing that except the water isn't cold at all.

They need baby steps because of cultural differences. Sure, maybe having multiple same-sex choices per gender is treading water by Western standards, but as EJ said, having men or women be explicitly interested in the same-sex without having them be bisexual, dressing it up as single-target homosexuality (i.e. only gay for one person) or being perverted/sexually depraved is much rarer than it is in Western Media. You have to bear in mind that, while they do have a huge market in the Western world, Nintendo and IS are Japanese companies and are doing the initial developing for the local market more than they are the international one.

Besides, it's not as if Western games didn't do same thing at first. As I said in the Bioware examples, female Shepards can be openly gay in the first game while male Shepards couldn't have a gay love-interest until the last game in the trilogy, almost five years afterward (and the Asari being a mono-gendered race doesn't really excuse it, considering that they're very feminine in appearance, Asari are referred to with feminine pronouns in-game and their stages of life are called 'Maiden', 'Matron' and 'Matriarch' instead of something more gender-ambiguous). Also Zeveran, the male bisexual option in DA:O is basically just Niles without the sadism, as seen through these incriminating quotes:

"Ah, no, of course not. They are not in the places you have yet seen. I can show you, if you wish." (Talking about tattoos)

"Didn't you... didn't you desire companionship, during those two years? Two years! The very thought makes me weak."

"I mean no offense. I simply offer my services should you ever feel the need for... release."

"I... I am so confused. I think I may cry. May I lay my head in your bosom?"

"Salvail prefers women with experience and maturity. He says they have more substance, are more robust and flavorful."

Edited January 20, 2016 by Phillius