Alternatives to Conquest Chapter 15? [obvious spoilers inside]

[Thane]

IAnd then Revelations ruins both Conquest and Birthright by revealing that the entire conflict could have been avoided had Aqua been more proactive.

My legit reaction when I played through Revelations and Azura started monologuing about all the details of the plot in the very beginning of the game:

Edited January 13, 2016 by Thane

[ghast]

Alriighty.

So I plan on doing a second rundown for Nohr's plot because I'm working on my next "This is what happens in" video. If you don't know what I'm talking about, it will be me pretty much roasting the plot with silly pictures (check my signature).

Since I know a lot of people know the story better than I do, and because I am going to be pressed for time this month and I want to get the Nohr video finished in mid-february, would anyone like to help me make the video? Its mostly like me asking people for details on what happens in the story, and if there are attempted references to previous fe games that I never saw and stuff/ generally discussing the story.

Pretty much just helping me with material.

If you guys would like to help please do!

[Sunwoo]

You should just get Thane on there so he can rant about Nohr path in all his glory

I'd say that contacting Kirokan would be the best choice if you wanted the most objective explanation of what happens in Nohr path as we can get. Failing that, just ask as many people who have played and understood Nohr route as you can.

[ghast]

You should just get Thane on there so he can rant about Nohr path in all his glory

I'd say that contacting Kirokan would be the best choice if you wanted the most objective explanation of what happens in Nohr path as we can get. Failing that, just ask as many people who have played and understood Nohr route as you can.

yeah. usually it helps if i can just discuss the plot as i go along with 1 or a few people. If anyone who thinks they can help/wants to help... wants to help, add me on skype please~

keegan_25

[NekoKnight]

yeah. usually it helps if i can just discuss the plot as i go along with 1 or a few people. If anyone who thinks they can help/wants to help... wants to help, add me on skype please~

keegan_25

I'm going to agree that Kirokan is the least biased/most even minded person to discuss the plot with. A good start for covering the plot and all the events is his chapter summaries. There is also a line by line translation the the whole script floating around somewhere but I forget who wrote it.

Next, you should identify which characters you need to draw (a lot).

The list should include: Garon, Macbeth, Ganz, Marx, Camilla, Leo, Elise, Mikoto, Ryoma, Hinoka, Takumi, Kamui Aqua and some others.

Next you should make the first draft for the script, covering the plot and peculiar things that come up. After that you should wait until the game is released internationally so you can see what changes were made for the localization. You should be mostly done by then and the final part will just be recording and editing.

I can discuss the plot with you and tell you what parts of the narrative I think are problematic and you can cross check that with what Kirokan (or other dedicated story people). I'll add you on Skype later, if that's alright.

Edited January 15, 2016 by NekoKnight

[ghast]

I'm going to agree that Kirokan is the least biased/most even minded person to discuss the plot with. A good start for covering the plot and all the events is his chapter summaries. There is also a line by line translation the the whole script floating around somewhere but I forget who wrote it.

Next, you should identify which characters you need to draw (a lot).

The list should include: Garon, Macbeth, Ganz, Marx, Camilla, Leo, Elise, Mikoto, Ryoma, Hinoka, Takumi, Kamui Aqua and some others.

Next you should make the first draft for the script, covering the plot and peculiar things that come up. After that you should wait until the game is released internationally so you can see what changes were made for the localization. You should be mostly done by then and the final part will just be recording and editing.

I can discuss the plot with you and tell you what parts of the narrative I think are problematic and you can cross check that with what Kirokan (or other dedicated story people). I'll add you on Skype later, if that's alright.

I've been advised to wait for the official translation as well. Drawing should be pretty terminal illness inducing this time around. LOOKING AT YOU RYOMA/MACBETH.

go ahead and add me on skype!

[Sunwoo]

I PM'd Kirokan about this thread a couple of hours ago, and they said that they have a summary of the Nohr route but likely won't have the time to be able to chat in detail about things on Skype.

[Thane]

You should just get Thane on there so he can rant about Nohr path in all his glory

I'd say that contacting Kirokan would be the best choice if you wanted the most objective explanation of what happens in Nohr path as we can get. Failing that, just ask as many people who have played and understood Nohr route as you can.

From the deep, dark corners of the internet, I emerge whenever someone summons me to a Fates bashing thread. Just say my name three times while playing Conquest/Revelations.

Seriously though, I did understand the story well enough, but with my rather strong opinions towards the story, I might not be the best person to ask.

I've been advised to wait for the official translation as well. Drawing should be pretty terminal illness inducing this time around. LOOKING AT YOU RYOMA/MACBETH.

go ahead and add me on skype!

Just add a picture of a lobster and a cartoon villain twirling his moustache; no one will be able to tell the difference.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Thane

[solrocknroll]

I actually love Nohr's plot. I actually enjoy how spineless Corrin is because those are probably the decisions I'd make tbh, and I enjoy villains like Iago.

Slime!Garon is bad, but could have been avoided if Revelations, the real terrible component, didn't exist.

In fact, almost all of Fates's pitfalls originate from Revelations and Touma. The entirety of Conquest and Birthright would have been way better if Revelations wasn't a thing. Especially considering how it pretty much trivialises the choice. Honestly, Corrin's Smash trailer makes me think that the whole "choose Smash instead" option was making fun of the "refuse to choose a side" option.

[Sunwoo]

The real problem with Nohr's plot, other than the Touma shit, is how Nohr is portrayed as the "wrong" choice while still trying to keep Kamui "right". This makes characters like Takumi (who is right on Nohr that Kamui is a piece of shit who couldn't be trusted) come off as being unreasonable in their perfectly justified anger. His anger and his actions on Nohr route, even if you don't agree with them, are rational enough for someone in his position. Kamui doesn't do anything to make Takumi want to forgive them either, but then you get shit like Nohr endgame where the game wants us to believe that his anger was wrong and was always wrong.

It is … positively infuriating when the protagonist does shit that should get them called out on and gets a pass from the world. Why do you think so many people hate Twilight?

[blinkingbrave]

Ahh... IK causes most of my complaints on Nohr, too. Tbh, it doesn't really bother me too much (beyond some Garon missed opportunity but even then... the outcome is predictable either way. Edit: And Takumi. Forgot bc I could kinda take or leave him anyways) mostly because outside of Garon (and Takumi), a lot of what it introduces affect the 'action' parts of the story, which I really just don't consider the meat of Nohr's story.

I mean... Ultimately, the three stories just aren't meant to stand alone, and each one is pretty clearly written with the other two in mind. If you were to theoretically only look at one version while ignoring the other two, of course your experience would be missing a lil something, ya know? So... I suppose it's a lil problematic given that three stories can be seen as running concurrently in time, but at the same time, they all make FE14 together so the narrative choice is kinda to be expected, I guess.

Edit: Not really a fan... but I certainly find it better than the one vanilla Hoshido route we probably would've gotten otherwise.

Edited January 15, 2016 by blinkingbrave

[Kirokan]

As Sunwoo said for me, I would love to help out, but have been pressed for time these days and doubt I will be an active presence on skype and such... so I can only offer you the story summary that was already linked, and that if you have very specific questions I can answer them via email (presenting the relevant part you have a question about would be a big help, too). I will try to reply as quick as I can on my schedule. : )

I do look forward to the official translation to see what may have changed between games, too.

Wish you the best on your project. It sounds like fun. : )

[Thor Odinson]

if i had the time i could draw every single ryouma (but only ryouma) because I can draw him from memory

unfortunately grad hell dawns back upon me

if you get severe handpains drawing ryouma maybe i can doodle 1 and you can copypaste him like 50 times

Edited January 15, 2016 by Thor Odinson

[Time the Crestfallen]

It is … positively infuriating when the protagonist does shit that should get them called out on and gets a pass from the world. Why do you think so many people hate Twilight?

I don't think that's a fair comparison. Sure, the plot definitely isn't something to write home about (especially Nohr), but comparing Kamui to Bella (who has actually been diagnosed as a clinical psychopath in real life) isn't really fair. Kamui's problem is that the world and every character in the story forgive him for his actions, but Kamui him/herself is a decent (maybe even a good) protagonist in terms of personality and flaws, who could've worked really well if he was written similarly to Sigurd i.e. having his naivety, optimism and good nature create problems in the delicate situations he's thrown into without and exploited to hell and back by his enemies.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Phillius

[Sunwoo]

All right, I suppose that's fair enough when it comes to the characters themselves. But I do feel that the plot itself (and not just in Nohr) has this tendency to just excuse the protagonist's actions no matter how bad they fuck up because they're supposed to be the darling of this world and "literally perfect", and in doing so the writers fail to realize just how unlikable someone like that would be in actuality.

[solrocknroll]

All right, I suppose that's fair enough when it comes to the characters themselves. But I do feel that the plot itself (and not just in Nohr) has this tendency to just excuse the protagonist's actions no matter how bad they fuck up because they're supposed to be the darling of this world and "literally perfect", and in doing so the writers fail to realize just how unlikable someone like that would be in actuality.

You do have to realise though that these characters are primarily Corrin's family members on either route. You have people like Yukimura who accept you for no reason tbh, but there are plenty of instances in real life when siblings can do terrible things and still be accepted by their family. I feel like Takumi is one such example of that. It doesn't make perfect sense for super forgiveness, but I let it slide because I have no problem with the plot.

I don't really see why someone who's a darling would be so unlikable though. Corrin endears well to most people in his supports, and Shinon's literally the only character I've ever seen to serve under a Lord and hate them.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Miss Kira

[ghast]

that's what I had originally thought as well. I mean the original premise is red flaggish right out the gate. You're literally helping an evil king win a war. He's just doing it the wrong way but I can't remember anyone telling him to stop. his personal sense of justice that goes challenged by literally no one. Even when they do get challenged by the hoshidan family, he quickly says "but I'm not going to kill you" and suddenly they treat him like an ally.

These were some of my other feelings about Kamui: Kamui is just a young, idealistic kid who is actually pretty stupid (he can't think of a plan to save his life/neither can Aqua). Leon and Marx should be guiding him, but they don't. the Hoshidans should be pissed, but they aren't because Kamui "saves" them.

As it currently stands for me, Kamui only comes off like a sociopath because the people around him enable him because they are written to dickride him the whole game.

Kamui seems like the kind of kid that if someone beat the fuck out of and told him what he's doing is wrong, he would understand and actually do something else. I mostly remember the hoshidan fam just spamming "come back to us" and no one actually saying why or giving him a compelling reason to stop what he's doing (but I might just be forgetting something and they did try to convince him that what he's doing is wrong). He's capable of calling himself out on his own bullshit. But nobody else is calling him out? He doesn't have someone to seek advice from. No one is helping him, he's literally just winging it (iirc). He never actually loses a battle/ fails. that's for sure.

IMO though, nobody aside from Kamui feels like a human being lol, i guess that's because its a badly written jrpg for my taste. Except for Takumi, but it takes him to be possessed by a demon to be unforgiving to the main character?? ugh.

-----

i've also seen people liking kamui/the story because the actions (or lack of actions) he takes are what the player playing would actually do IRL. A lot of people think the opposite. Personally, I would have switched sides mid way through. Personally I would have thought of a better plan in regards to the curse/crystal ball/ garon. I would have told Ganz to back the fuck up.

I mean, Kamui is supposed to be me, right? He's the MU, right? So for me there's this huge disconnect in what I'm feeling and what the coded Kamui is feeling/doing. And that's what I hate about him and Conquest.

Heck, if were a Hoshidan, I would be pissed off and good fuggin' luck getting me to bend over for Nohr, the country that just slapped my country around like a liiiiiil bitch.

Edited January 15, 2016 by ghast

[Sunwoo]

You do have to realise though that these characters are primarily Corrin's family members on either route. You have people like Yukimura who accept you for no reason tbh, but there are plenty of instances in real life when siblings can do terrible things and still be accepted by their family. I feel like Takumi is one such example of that. It doesn't make perfect sense for super forgiveness, but I let it slide because I have no problem with the plot.

I don't really see why someone who's a darling would be so unlikable though. Corrin endears well to most people in his supports, and Shinon's literally the only character I've ever seen to serve under a Lord and hate them.

Except that Takumi and Sakura barely know Kamui, and hadn't gotten to spend a lot of time with Kamui before they were taken away? Kamui is virtually a stranger to them. A stranger who, from their POV, left them to join the enemy country that as far as the plot is concerned is responsible for their parents' death (Mikoto died the previous chapter, but Nohr also killed Sumeragi). I can at least overlook Ryouma and Hinoka being so sentimental because they would remember growing up with Kamui, but the younger two don't make very much sense. Also, the way Takumi forgives Kamui is stupid because Kamui had done nothing to deserve it. The "hate monster" shtick is dumb and a cheap copout in comparison to having to deal with the realization that you've really hurt someone and that sometimes you can't make it better. Kind of like Garon being a slime monster.

Also, I'll tell you why a character being the "universe's darling" is so frustrating. As a consumer of media, it's boring to see this one character get off scot-free all the time. To see everyone love them despite them doing nothing. To always be coddled when they need a good calling out because a mistake they made was entirely their fault and it affected many people negatively. And there are some "universe's darlings" who are really terrible to the people around them, who never learn that the people around them are not tools for their own entertainment.

Not to mention, any person in real life who's just SO perfect and SO amazing whom everyone loves and you're just not allowed to get mad at them how justified you are is going to make you want to punch them in the face.

In the case of Kamui, and Kamui specifically, this is frustrating because they make a lot of stupid decisions in the Nohr route. They let things happen that could've probably been avoided had they actually tried to do something. But they don't. Kamui does a lot of things wrong. People on Nohr route are justified to hate or at least be angry with them for their actions. And yet, the game expects us to believe that Kamui did nothing wrong.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Sunwoo

[NekoKnight]

if i had the time i could draw every single ryouma (but only ryouma) because I can draw him from memory

unfortunately grad hell dawns back upon me

if you get severe handpains drawing ryouma maybe i can doodle 1 and you can copypaste him like 50 times

On behalf of Ghast, I request a normal Ryouma and JoJo/Fist of the North Star style Ryouma portrait to be used interchangeably and alternated without cause or warning.

I don't think that's a fair comparison. Sure, the plot definitely isn't something to write home about (especially Nohr), but comparing Kamui to Bella (who has actually been diagnosed as a clinical psychopath in real life) isn't really fair. Kamui's problem is that the world and every character in the story forgive him for his actions, but Kamui him/herself is a decent (maybe even a good) protagonist in terms of personality and flaws, who could've worked really well if he was written similarly to Sigurd i.e. having his naivety, optimism and good nature create problems in the delicate situations he's thrown into without and exploited to hell and back by his enemies.

His flaws manifest in a terrible way. I like that he has doubts and eternal regrets but feeling sad doesn't bring people back from the dead. Kamui's first mistake was returning to Garon, but he just doesn't learn his lesson. It's apparent that the upper brass of Nohr is evil to the core but Kamui doesn't rebel. He doesn't defect. He doesn't have any plan other than to let the villain win and THEN he decides it's time to do the right thing.

It's not simply that Kamui fucked up and was forgiven. It's that he continues to fuck up and can't acknowledge the fact that his actions were making the world a worse place. It wouldn't be enough for the story to call Kamui a piece of shit, because he is. Being a hero doesn't mean feeling sorry for your mistakes, it means making up for and fixing them. If there was any room to doubt, both Hoshido and Revelations exist to show that choosing Nohr was a mistake.

Edited January 15, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Thor Odinson]

On behalf of Ghast, I request a normal Ryouma and JoJo/Fist of the North Star style Ryouma portrait to be used interchangeably and alternated without cause or warning.

...

I'm gonna fucking do it

[Time the Crestfallen]

On behalf of Ghast, I request a normal Ryouma and JoJo/Fist of the North Star style Ryouma portrait to be used interchangeably and alternated without cause or warning.

His flaws manifest in a terrible way. I like that he has doubts and eternal regrets but feeling sad doesn't bring people back from the dead. Kamui's first mistake was returning to Garon, but he just doesn't learn his lesson. It's apparent that the upper brass of Nohr is evil to the core but Kamui doesn't rebel. He doesn't defect. He doesn't have any plan other than to let the villain win and THEN he decides it's time to do the right thing.

It's not simply that Kamui fucked up and was forgiven. It's that he continues to fuck up and can't acknowledge the fact that his actions were making the world a worse place. It wouldn't be enough for the story to call Kamui a piece of shit, because he is. Being a hero doesn't mean feeling sorry for your mistakes, it means making up for and fixing them. If there was any room to doubt, both Hoshido and Revelations exist to show that choosing Nohr was a mistake.

Especially if he's dressed like the Pillar Men. I demand that Ryoma wear nothing but a loincloth for...scientific reasons.

That's not my point. I agree that the way Kamui is treated by the plot is obnoxious, I'm just saying that it's not fair to compare Kamui (a character with a good, workable backstory and personality who's actions are mostly in line with said backstory and personality) to Bella Swan, who the novel states is compassionate and humble while being treated like the second coming of Jesus in-universe, despite being an objectively terrible person (http://das-sporking.livejournal.com/151027.html). Kamui had a lot of potential and could've been a great protagonist if his story had similarities to that of Sigurd's in terms of his flaws.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Phillius

[Dark Sage]

Honestly, I think it would've made more sense if Hinoka was the main rival/recurring antagonist and not Takumi. I mean really, Hinoka has even more reason to be pissed off than Takumi does about Corrin defecting. It's not that Takumi wouldn't be angry but 1) he doesn't remember Corrin and 2) Corrin defecting was exactly what he was expecting. Hinoka not only remembers Corrin but dedicated her life to becoming strong enough to rescue him; not only does Corrin leave them but he goes as far as attacking her and helping the people who kidnapped him, pretty much shitting all over her, her family, and her country and invalidated everything she's worked for. It would be far more of an emotional shock to her than Takumi and would leave her more open to possession to Anakos if that plot point must be kept.

Come to think of it, Nohr's plot reminds me a bit of the plots of a Vietnam movie. Actually, it's a lot like them, to the point that I wouldn't have been surprised if Kibayashi was watching Platoon and Full Metal Jacket while writing Nohr's draft. Ganz in particular is like one of those psychotic soldiers you see in those movies, who basically spend most of their time victimizing the civilians like a savage bully. Part of the reason he falls flat though is because unlike, say, Sergeant Barnes, who is cunning and menacing, Ganz is a pure meathead and comes across as a joke in his introduction, which destroys any menace he might have had and he doesn't come across as a threat (especially since he spends pretty much all his screentime killing people who can't fight back and not anyone who can). It's like making the Door Gunner from Full Metal Jacket or Bunny from Platoon one of the main villains; it just doesn't work because they can't carry a role that large.

Now all we need is a Hoshidan hooker humping Corrin's leg and offering to love him long time.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Dark Sage

[NekoKnight]

Especially if he's dressed like the Pillar Men. I demand that Ryoma wear nothing but a loincloth for...scientific reasons.

That's not my point. I agree that the way Kamui is treated by the plot is obnoxious, I'm just saying that it's not fair to compare Kamui (a character with a good, workable backstory and personality who's actions are in line with said backstory and personality) to Bella Swan, who the novel states is compassionate and humble while being treated like the second coming of Jesus in-universe, despite being an objectively terrible person (http://das-sporking.livejournal.com/151027.html). Kamui had a lot of potential and could've been a great protagonist if the game/characters weren't riding his dick and his flaws were explored more and had an impact on his actions.

I was just saying that even without the dick riding, Nohr!Kamui was bad as a protagonist and bad as a person. I'd agree there is some potential to explore in a moral character being forced to involve themselves in evil schemes (that's the basis of my rewrite), but as Kamui was fucking things up from square one, I can't bring myself to like him.

Kamui's tragic hero character is so closely tied to the critically flawed Nohr story, if you were to change the story in a satisfactory manner. Kamui himself would become a different character. Does that make sense? I don't consider Kamui a lone grace of a terrible story, I consider him a core element of what makes it bad. Had the same events happened, but Kamui had a better response to them (clenching his fists in pockets, looking sad), I'd find him more sympathetic and interesting.

Honestly, I think it would've made more sense if Hinoka was the main rival/recurring antagonist and not Takumi. I mean really, Hinoka has even more reason to be pissed off than Takumi does about Corrin defecting. It's not that Takumi wouldn't be angry but 1) he doesn't remember Corrin and 2) Corrin defecting was exactly what he was expecting. Hinoka not only remembers Corrin but dedicated her life to becoming strong enough to rescue him; not only does Corrin leave them but he goes as far as attacking her and helping the people who kidnapped him, pretty much shitting all over her, her family, and her country and invalidated everything she's worked for. It would be far more of an emotional shock to her than Takumi and would leave her more open to possession to Anakos if that plot point must be kept.

I enjoyed Takumi's antagonism, compared to everyone else who treated Kamui like their ally in need of saving, but after a while it got kind of annoying. I mean, I know Kamui wronged Hoshido but I don't feel as guilty about how it affects Takumi because Takumi hated me from the start. Had it been Hinoka, it could be built up to be much more of gut punch. Imagine after several encounters with you she realizes that the brother she had fond memories of and had devoted herself to saving was gone forever, by his own will. The rage and sorrow she (and the player) would feel would be intense! Takumi swearing revenge every time I beat him and spare his ungrateful bum just makes him look like a punk. Hinoka's compassion for you turning into hatred would be a big emotional turning point.

[Sunwoo]

Now all we need is a Hoshidan hooker humping Corrin's leg and offering to love him long time.

You mean Suzukaze *shot*

Edited January 15, 2016 by Sunwoo

[Time the Crestfallen]

I was just saying that even without the dick riding, Nohr!Kamui was bad as a protagonist and bad as a person. I'd agree there is some potential to explore in a moral character being forced to involve themselves in evil schemes (that's the basis of my rewrite), but as Kamui was fucking things up from square one, I can't bring myself to like him.

Kamui's tragic hero character is so closely tied to the critically flawed Nohr story, if you were to change the story in a satisfactory manner. Kamui himself would become a different character. Does that make sense? I don't consider Kamui a lone grace of a terrible story, I consider him a core element of what makes it bad. Had the same events happened, but Kamui had a better response to them (clenching his fists in pockets, looking sad), I'd find him more sympathetic and interesting.

Speaking of that, let's do what most of these topics do at one point or another and complain about Garon. The problem with Kamui and the other Nohrian siblings is that they keep getting hamstrung by Garon's 'If you disobey me even slightly, I'll kill you' attitude. Let's recap:

-If Kamui questions Garon, he'll probably be executed

-If Kamui tries to subvert Garon's orders, he'll get executed

-If Kamui opposes Iago/Ganz, they'll tell Garon and he'll be executed

-If any of the Nohrian Siblings disobey Garon or oppose Iago/Ganz, they'll be executed

Not only does this make them all look ineffectual, but it also locks you into performing moral reprehensible things while 'excusing' Kamui of any blame. I think it'd work better if it was said that you'd be 'punished' for disobeying him while not spelling out what said punishment would be, and then giving you an option in missions to disobey the orders he's given. If you do, the next time you report to Garon he could punish you in a number of ways like:

-Taking money away from you or permanently removing items from your inventory (considering Nohr's 'no-grinding', this would be pretty crippling)

-Open up pathways to different missions, with two possibilities; he could send you on easier, less important missions that give less experience (again, considering the 'no-grind', this could be pretty bad) or much harder missions that give less loot and in which recruited characters could die.

-If the writers were feeling particularly brutal, repeated failure to follow orders could have him execute one of the servants or Silas, excusing it with them being a 'bad influence'.

Conversely, actually following his orders would have him reward you for loyal service, with possibilities including:

-Rare weapons

-Extra money

-Extra experience

-Class changing items

-ETC

I think this would work for two reasons. Firstly, it fixes a lot of Kamui's 'hand in pockets, look sad' problems since how rebellious Kamui is depends on the player. Secondly, it helps with the siblings characterisations as they can imply that they used to subvert Garon's orders when they weren't comfortable with them and slowly broke under Garon's 'punishments', but still defend him because he rewards them for following his orders and states that he was doing it 'for their own good' (similar to what happens in actual emotionally abusive relationships. Who knows, some players might find the same thing happening to them).

You mean Suzukaze *shot*

*Hides Rifle*

Oh no! Sunwoo's dead! Who could've done such a thing?

Edited January 15, 2016 by Phillius