Soleil Support Changed in NA/Europe Localization + Shara/Syalla Name Change

[eclipse]

If Kaze was a gay option I would totally go for him, cuz I dislike Midoriko, lol.

Then by that logic, I'd have to vote Tsukuyomi, too.

Yeah, the "if it's you it's okay" trope is awful, as is any form of "but...we're both girls/boys!/but liking girls/boys is forbidden!". Or well, like 80% of the tropes that come from yuri/yaoi that I know IS will reference when writing gay relationships. And you can sign me up for bi Felicia, that's an A+ high quality suggestion.

Screwing the maid/butler is also kinda trope-y. . .but I can honestly see that happening in this game.

. . .though if I truly had it my way, Camilla would be in that pool, somewhere.

Lesbians are great friends though. Our lesbian is the queen of memes and she's super fashionable. They're good to have around.

I've dealt with way more dudes than chicks. . .and the latter did NOT go over well at all. Might be a gender thing.

In all honesty, I think it's fair to take issue with IS conveniently deciding to line the two gay/bi options up with two of the most... morally questionable... recruitable characters in the game. I suppose it's theoretically possible that it's just a coincidence, but considering that they have a female character who is explicitly attracted to women (Soleil), but who for some inexplicable reason can romance neither F!Corrin (whose preferences presumably match the player's), nor Rhajat (who is bi), nor any other female characters for that matter, then one's gotta wonder.

For anyone who's gonna argue the "schoolgirl lesbians" trope for Soleil... it may well be true that that's what they were aiming for, but seeing as it's just another form of the "being [not straight] is just a phase" mentality, it hardly makes things better.

In its own very fucked-up way. . .I think what happened to Soliel is realistic. Apparently, the bi part of LGBT is treated poorly by everyone (the view that they're not being honest with themselves/are on the fence/other nonsense), so having the admittedly bi character being forced to choose which gender she's attracted to is. . .awful, but fitting.

They don't need to have gay people on the staff to know how to write a gay person because well, we're people.

BINGO. . .sort of.

The major personality traits should be easy enough to write. But the minor ones? A few pages back, I had a nice yelling match about food. My views on food are really extreme, and one that I don't think most people have to go through. So if you were to write someone with the same types of allergies, you'd probably do fine with that character as a person, but might screw up some of the really small things (like constantly reading food labels, or going over to someone else's house to do any sort of dessert baking). Likewise, if I were to attempt a not-straight character, I could write a character, but I'd probably miss some small details that someone who is actually not-straight (this isn't meant as an insult, this is me being too lazy to list out all the orientations) would do IRL.

And Rhajat is more of a person that is awkward, quiet and unsocial rather than a stalker.

She really isn't much like Tharja other than her cursing habit.

Would it surprise you if I told you that Tharja is socially awkward, and that's where I think the "stalker" thing crops up?

In other words, Rhajat sounds like Tharja.

[Berret]

I would rather have all the playersexual characters be bi. But guess that's just too much to hope for? Or considering that this is pretty much a Waifu/Husbondo Battle Simulator just have everyone be able to get S ranked by the player character.

It's not hard to write gay characters unless a bad writer decides that their personality is their orientation something that really annoys me.

We are people who just happen to like our own gender. How hard is it to write a character who just happens to like their own gender? For some reason people think there are tons of steps to do so.

"He's a silent warrior who's protective of his friends who happens to like men."

"She's a wandering mercenary who is using the gold to help her ailing parents and she just happens to like women."

There, I just wrote the outline of two characters.

Anyway, the only guys that I like are Gunter, Fuuga and Benoit.

Not sure how I feel about Niles yet, but I don't care for Rattata.

[SalShich10N]

As others have already said, gay characters with flaws are totally fine. Even gay villains are fine. But the problem is 100% of the gay options being bad people. They don't need to have gay people on the staff to know how to write a gay person because well, we're people. Dragon Age Inquisition has 4 gay/bi characters and they all are flawed in some way, 2 of them are even not the best of people (Sera, the lesbian, is all about bashing heads in and doing shady things). But no one criticizes Bioware for including flawed gay characters because they go about it the right way by actually having a variety. If just 1 of the 2 gay options had been more of a positive or even just a more neutral character I wouldn't bat an eye at Tharja 2.0 or Niles/Zero.

You leave it on a lose-lose situation for the writers. Both Shara and Zero have plenty of positive points themselves people ignore, or rather don't know about because _{half the people criticizing the characters haven't played the game nor even read the translated supports} the game isn't even out yet. You say "they don't need to be gay to write gay people" but you seriously underestimate how hard can it be for humans to understand and portray human beings, particularly when the idea is to make every characters as quirky and abnormal as possible. Most romantic supports even when heterosexual feel very forced and unnatural, hell a very big problem with the Nohr's plot is that characters behave in a very unrealistic and undesirable manner, the writers can't even get that aspect of people right. And worst of all, you compare them to Bioware a company known for being too intrusive with gay people and relationships to the player in it's writing. And I honestly do not trust Treehouse, who are known to replace flavor text in games such as Smash Bros, Animal Crossing and Zelda with internet memes to improve on any aspect of the story. Hell I don't think they're smart enough to retain Mitama's haiku speech.

And again, these characters weren't made homosexual for the sake of inclusion, they were done for the sake of pandering. They fully expect perverted fujos to make a male character and pair themselves with Zero or a fat otaku neckbeard to make a female character and pair themselves with Shara. Marriage in this game serves a gameplay function that is lost if one introduces gay marriages.... perhaps if children characters weren't a thing you could've had it your way.

[nyainou]

And again, these characters weren't made homosexual for the sake of inclusion, they were done for the sake of pandering. They fully expect perverted fujos to make a male character and pair themselves with Zero or a fat otaku neckbeard to make a female character and pair themselves with Shara. Marriage in this game serves a gameplay function that is lost if one introduces gay marriages.... perhaps if children characters weren't a thing you could've had it your way.

I feel like everyone seems to forget that surrogate mothers and sperm donors exist. It could add a whole new layer to gameplay/optimization. Maybe something like, any female M!Corrin and Niles have achieved an A-support with are options for surrogate. Or even, gay couples get their own exclusive adopted kid that you can't get any other way. Either way, its not like children are coming back in Fe15, considering how poorly received they were this time around. With that in mind, hopefully IS will take criticisms and only improve from here.

[Jave]

I think that if you were to S-Support a gay couple, they could adopt a child that is a different character to the kid that would be born from one of those parents, but of the same class and similar stats, similar to the replacement characters in FE4.

[NekoKnight]

I feel like everyone seems to forget that surrogate mothers and sperm donors exist. It could add a whole new layer to gameplay/optimization. Maybe something like, any female M!Corrin and Niles have achieved an A-support with are options for surrogate. Or even, gay couples get their own exclusive adopted kid that you can't get any other way. Either way, its not like children are coming back in Fe15, considering how poorly received they were this time around. With that in mind, hopefully IS will take criticisms and only improve from here.

I don't think something like a sperm donor or surrogate mother are going to be included in a game that has such a PG depiction of how procreation works. I could see adoption but...

As for there being children or not in FE15, I wouldn't bet against it. Fates shows you don't need a logical reason for how or why children exist, and the dating sim aspect is as popular as ever.

[Berret]

I think that if you were to S-Support a gay couple, they could adopt a child that is a different character to the kid that would be born from one of those parents, but of the same class and similar stats, similar to the replacement characters in FE4.

That's what I was thinking as well and it might make for some interesting characters(An adopted Kanna won't have the dragon blood, causing him/her to feel inadequate) . But I have no hopes on IS's writing being interesting anymore.

Two different children for the unit that you get depending on what gender their S rank is.

[angienessyo]

On the topic of needing to be gay to understand gay people, large not actual spoilery image under the spoiler tag

Same deal here. Not that I think George RR Martin of all people deserves an award for writing women, but still relevant here haha I agree with Beret that the ideal way for gay characters to be handled is "This character is X. They just happen to like men/women." Being gay shouldn't be all the character is about, that's just awful writing. And straight characters should be the same way. Cordelia was such a missed opportunity because the writers had so much they could have actually used to make her an interesting character, but instead chose to make her all about wanting to bang Chrom.

[Erdall]

When censorship happens (unless it is for extreme-related content like pure sexuality or violence, you know ...), is when no one cares / can understand the way japanese people focus things.

The Soleil thing was more focused on a mere light joke about her own sexual orientation. The irony when she can talk easier to women (disguised in her mind as men) thanks to a certain potion she drinks, is what eventually makes her fall in love with the male Kamui.

Or at least that's what I would want to believe despite that infamous 'Japan's supposed homophobia'.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Erdall

[SalShich10N]

I feel like everyone seems to forget that surrogate mothers and sperm donors exist. It could add a whole new layer to gameplay/optimization. Maybe something like, any female M!Corrin and Niles have achieved an A-support with are options for surrogate. Or even, gay couples get their own exclusive adopted kid that you can't get any other way. Either way, its not like children are coming back in Fe15, considering how poorly received they were this time around. With that in mind, hopefully IS will take criticisms and only improve from here.

This is crazy, grasping for straws, and a huge leeway for other more degenerate fetishes such as swinging, netorare, and actual gay conversion. It's too much effort just to include gays on a game that doesn't need to force romantic supports between everyone in the first place. I think it'd be better if supports were left at A and only very few of them actually developed into romantic endings and increase the amount of fraternal supports between same gender characters. Nearly every single good support is friendship between two same gendered characters and it's annoying how sparse they are. It also triggers my OCD bad how they put the S support after the A, like that's not how the alphabet goes.

[NekoKnight]

This is crazy, grasping for straws, and a huge leeway for other more degenerate fetishes such as swinging, netorare, and actual gay conversion. It's too much effort just to include gays on a game that doesn't need to force romantic supports between everyone in the first place. I think it'd be better if supports were left at A and only very few of them actually developed into romantic endings and increase the amount of fraternal supports between same gender characters. Nearly every single good support is friendship between two same gendered characters and it's annoying how sparse they are. It also triggers my OCD bad how they put the S support after the A, like that's not how the alphabet goes.

Wat...? Where did that come from?

Edited January 24, 2016 by NekoKnight

[eclipse]

On the topic of needing to be gay to understand gay people, large not actual spoilery image under the spoiler tag

Same deal here. Not that I think George RR Martin of all people deserves an award for writing women, but still relevant here haha I agree with Beret that the ideal way for gay characters to be handled is "This character is X. They just happen to like men/women." Being gay shouldn't be all the character is about, that's just awful writing. And straight characters should be the same way. Cordelia was such a missed opportunity because the writers had so much they could have actually used to make her an interesting character, but instead chose to make her all about wanting to bang Chrom.

That's great, for most circumstances. I like deconstructing characters, and if the writer has no idea about how to write a character based on their inherent traits, I'll see it. It's the reason why I shy away from a lot of romance - a lot of it doesn't seem genuine to me. Hell, I don't trust myself with writing a straight romance, and I'm straight. The entire issue could be avoided if it's something that casually comes up in a conversation, and is never mentioned again. . .but that's not really the point of having a gay/bi/other orientation character.

Speaking of Cordelia, there IS a lot more to her. . .and it's actually kinda scary. It explains why Severa turned out the way she did.

[SalShich10N]

Wat...? Where did that come from?

"Surrogate" mothers and Sperm "donors". Come on don't be naive, you and I know how this works the natural way. Whatever, it's not happening and it shouldn't, that is not something I'd like to see from a T rated game by Nintendo. There is a line. The messed up way breeding for stats works in Pokemon makes up plenty for all their other franchises.

[nyainou]

"Surrogate" mothers and Sperm "donors". Come on don't be naive, you and I know how this works the natural way. Whatever, it's not happening and it shouldn't, that is not something I'd like to see from a T rated game by Nintendo. There is a line. The messed up way breeding for stats works in Pokemon makes up plenty for all their other franchises.

..Do you think that the 1st gens in Fates aren't having sex already? How do you think children are made? I'm so confused. I admit my ideas weren't 100% developed or thought out, but I think you're overreacting.

[NekoKnight]

"Surrogate" mothers and Sperm "donors". Come on don't be naive, you and I know how this works the natural way. Whatever, it's not happening and it shouldn't, that is not something I'd like to see from a T rated game by Nintendo. There is a line. The messed up way breeding for stats works in Pokemon makes up plenty for all their other franchises.

I think the person you were responding to meant it in the way modern people do, ie people who can't reproduce naturally so they rely on surrogates and donors. Whether that's appropriate for a video game or not is debatable but suggesting this would lead to NTR, swingers and gay conversion was completely uncalled for.

[gayserbeam]

This is crazy, grasping for straws, and a huge leeway for other more degenerate fetishes such as swinging,

Swinging is "degenerate" now? And how would swinging ever occur in a game that has no sex?

Every addition opens the door for another possible addition. But most people, including IS, can see a clear line between sperm donation and getting your rocks off while watching Ryoma sheath his katana in your lesbian wife. It can be done tastefully.

The entire issue could be avoided if it's something that casually comes up in a conversation, and is never mentioned again. . .but that's not really the point of having a gay/bi/other orientation character.

This is really important, I feel.

Queer characters shouldn't have "gay" as their only defining trait. But that should not necessarily mean that their orientation is completely unimportant to their character. It should not have to mean it never comes up. It should not have to mean their sexuality isn't obvious.

"Hardened mercenary who fights to protect his sick daughter and can talk to cats, who is also gay" can be a good character. But so can "Fashionable young man who wears a pink skirt and has effeminate mannerisms, who tries really hard to to master his magic to prove himself because he is used to being bullied", and so could "Renegade paladin who was kicked out of the royal guard because she had an affair with the princess, and is a smartass who can talk to cats."

A strong gay character doesn't have to be an amazing person. They don't have to be indistinguishable from a straight character. They can freely mention they are gay.

My problem with Niles and Rhajat is that the only gay relationships occur with people who have personalities that could "excuse" their gay behavior, and that the only character who explicitly shows gay preference can't marry women and gives it up to a guy when a man talks to her four times. The fact that Soleil can't marry Rhajat is evidence that Rhajat is simply obsessed with Corrin and that Soleil's attraction to girls is just a phase she gets over when she meets the right guy. These aren't gay characters, they are pandering that lets the writers claim inclusiveness while denying liberalism.

[Alazen]

They weren't trying to be "inclusive". SJWism has no pull over Japanese game devs.

[Solkia]

I would rather have all the playersexual characters be bi. But guess that's just too much to hope for? Or considering that this is pretty much a Waifu/Husbondo Battle Simulator just have everyone be able to get S ranked by the player character.

That's my thought on it.

I don't care how much it doesn't make sense, the best thing a player can have is options.

I say when it comes to same sex stuff go all out or don't bother. Because you're just going to make players wish for things they didn't get if you halfass it.

[RobbieRotten]

That's my thought on it.

I don't care how much it doesn't make sense, the best thing a player can have is options.

I say when it comes to same sex stuff go all out or don't bother. Because you're just going to make players wish for things they didn't get if you halfass it.

Dragon Age 2 did that.

Personally, I think it kind've cheapens the whole thing having everyone swing both ways.

Edited January 25, 2016 by RobbieRotten

[Berret]

Dragon Age 2 did that.

Personally, I think it kind've cheapens the whole thing having everyone swing both ways.

"I like pie."

"I can make pie."

"Let's get married."

"I saw you naked."

"I did too, let's get married."

I say the supports are cheap enough already. :P

[PuffPuff]

I think this is a good change that anyone could see was going to be made from a mile away given the fact that Nintendo of America was first to announce gay romances i felt it was obvious they wouldnt be okay with this support.

im not so sold on rhatja name but its okay i dont really care about names tbh as long as i like the character

Also why are some people saying that the gay support are being cancelled like Nintendo of America was first to confirm gay relationship, imo i feel like it was always the idea of nintendo of america to ask for these to be included but since the game was done by japanese people they did so little and made the support a little pandering to yaoi/yuri fans but im okay with it as long as i get some gay supports

It's not normal society to not include them.

Man, don't tell me. I will sound like a bitter veteran now, but I miss when endings were more than just lovers or marriage. I miss friendship endings or sad endings, and I miss how important some A conversations were.

Now with S supports some conversations feel like they have to go further from A, or like some units are legit flirting with married people.

I know people have a lot of fun with this stuff, but other than how I'd like the devs to focus more on other things (such as gameplay and polish), I'd also like to have characters as characters back, not playthings.

I wish I could have gay characters too, but I do not want them to be toys for the avatar to play with. I can't ask this from this game and I accepted it, I take Fates as what it is and I enjoy its now edonistic nature, but FE, FE for me was the perfect game for some legit same sex relationships WITHOUT the need of an avatar, because of the support system, because of comraderie, because the best form of romance is born from friendship and companionship, IMO.

When I was a child, I was struck by Lyon saying "I love you" to Ephraim, because in Italian, "Love" as a word is only used for romantic love, and my english was not good at all (I was 11). In my eyes, Lyon was in love with Ephraim, and it hit me so hard in the heart. I know it's not canon, but looking back at their relationship, and then seeing a worse version of Heather going HEHE GIRLS, then seeing same sex options that are clearly yuri/yaoi bait (as much as I like them), it makes me sad. And let's not talk about the joke that is heterosexual romance in these games, too. Literally everyone is forced to fall for people they wouldn't care about.

Love now feels like nothing more than a toy or a self insert fantasy in Fire Emblem. Good relationships are so far and in-between, and the absence of good friendships and the joke that is sibling love just makes things worse.

You probably are joking, but deep down in my heart I feel like Fates: Conquest (and the other two routes to an extent) might be Fire Emblem's final swan song from a gameplay standpoint. I really fear the series, at this point, might get worse, because if we go back to something more akin to, IDK, Fire Emblem 7, that might not be enough for a lot of new fans who simply came in for the characters and the match making.

I really don't want to stop liking Fire Emblem.

POST THEME:

Guys... I'm sorry for being such a doombringer... lol... forgive me.

Just like they've hid her convo with her being attracted to Elincia at 2-4.

I just wonder how they are going to do Foleo since he is a transvestite.

Camilla is flirting/teasing Beruka in their Kozaki art and one of the lines in her profile was that she's 'fond of strong women' or something like that. If anything, she's a lesbian who'd go straight for Kamui.

I say give IS a chance. I talked about this in the controversy thread, but I'd like to point out that we have to bear in mind the cultural differences between Japan and the West. What might be seen as fairly progressive over there might just be treading water over here and a little behind the times. Bioware's probably one of the most progressive game developers in the Western World and it took them a while to get to that. Male Shepards in Mass Effect have to wait until the game to have a relationship with another male while female Shepards were allowed to be in a gay relationship in the very first one (the time between the two being almost five years), the male bisexual option in Dragon Age Origins was a flirty former assassin who constantly makes innuendos (aka Niles without the sadism). Hell, they're not immune to this even now. In Inquisition, there's a female-to-male transgender mercenary who's gender identity is only brought up as an Author's Saving Throw so that they can make the Qun seem more progressive and sympathetic (as the Qun is seen by a large portion of the fanbase as xenophobic, self-righteous and chock-full of unfortunate implications). I'm willing to believe that FE15 will be more progressive and a step in the right direction, both in regards to gay/bisexual portrayal and for the series as a whole.

Going "cute child" (kawaii-kun) to female avatar may tell that she's a homo.

Of course not ecchi like you are probably thinking, but like Fates took Awakening further, FE15 might take Fates even further. I doubt sex scenes will happen, but who's to say (clothed) body touching is not too far off? Or how we might get even worse written love relationships? What if they ditch gameplay entirely cuz that's not what sells?(so we have Empty Square maps: Powerleveling! the game) Oh lol I'm so fearful right now. I know I'm exaggerating and I still have faith in IS, but dang sometimes it's hard to not be a doombringer out of fear of disappointment.

The mechanics have been set that you can't.

Niles/Zero sucks, yeah, no question. However, I'd chalk NotTharja up to the yandere stalker archetype being a popular one with some crowds, so it's more a victim of differing cultural perceptions than anything. I would, also, strongly suggest against assuming malice when ignorance might be the cause. Of late I've seen a lot of people try and read authorial intent or support from the creative work they've produced, and nothing good really ever comes of it, because it's mostly un-provable either way, and typically used as a cudgel to try and alter behavior of creators.

They've kept Tharja that way that she didn't have to show it in words. Following the female Robin around...

I would rather have all the playersexual characters be bi. But guess that's just too much to hope for? Or considering that this is pretty much a Waifu/Husbondo Battle Simulator just have everyone be able to get S ranked by the player character.

It's not hard to write gay characters unless a bad writer decides that their personality is their orientation something that really annoys me.

We are people who just happen to like our own gender. How hard is it to write a character who just happens to like their own gender? For some reason people think there are tons of steps to do so.

"He's a silent warrior who's protective of his friends who happens to like men."

"She's a wandering mercenary who is using the gold to help her ailing parents and she just happens to like women."

There, I just wrote the outline of two characters.

Anyway, the only guys that I like are Gunter, Fuuga and Benoit.

Not sure how I feel about Niles yet, but I don't care for Rattata.

I do.

A level 2 Rattata can own anything without a rapid priority move from the opponent.

Item: Focus Sash

Endeavor+Quick Attack

"Surrogate" mothers and Sperm "donors". Come on don't be naive, you and I know how this works the natural way. Whatever, it's not happening and it shouldn't, that is not something I'd like to see from a T rated game by Nintendo. There is a line. The messed up way breeding for stats works in Pokemon makes up plenty for all their other franchises.

Should be rated E-10+. Were getting nothing grown-up out of the deal in the game.

I'm only concerned on Birthright if NOA is to make them more rebellous to Nohr. When they have no rebellious nature whatsoever.

Swinging is "degenerate" now? And how would swinging ever occur in a game that has no sex?

Every addition opens the door for another possible addition. But most people, including IS, can see a clear line between sperm donation and getting your rocks off while watching Ryoma sheath his katana in your lesbian wife. It can be done tastefully.

This is really important, I feel.

Queer characters shouldn't have "gay" as their only defining trait. But that should not necessarily mean that their orientation is completely unimportant to their character. It should not have to mean it never comes up. It should not have to mean their sexuality isn't obvious.

"Hardened mercenary who fights to protect his sick daughter and can talk to cats, who is also gay" can be a good character. But so can "Fashionable young man who wears a pink skirt and has effeminate mannerisms, who tries really hard to to master his magic to prove himself because he is used to being bullied", and so could "Renegade paladin who was kicked out of the royal guard because she had an affair with the princess, and is a smartass who can talk to cats."

A strong gay character doesn't have to be an amazing person. They don't have to be indistinguishable from a straight character. They can freely mention they are gay.

My problem with Niles and Rhajat is that the only gay relationships occur with people who have personalities that could "excuse" their gay behavior, and that the only character who explicitly shows gay preference can't marry women and gives it up to a guy when a man talks to her four times. The fact that Soleil can't marry Rhajat is evidence that Rhajat is simply obsessed with Corrin and that Soleil's attraction to girls is just a phase she gets over when she meets the right guy. These aren't gay characters, they are pandering that lets the writers claim inclusiveness while denying liberalism.

Which Corrin might not be after getting over her problem the wrong way. :/

----

It's obvious as has been pointed out the IS is too straight to wanting to include any homo relationships in the game.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Lin_Lee_Koo

[RobbieRotten]

"I like pie."

"I can make pie."

"Let's get married."

"I saw you naked."

"I did too, let's get married."

I say the supports are cheap enough already. :P

Well you got me there.

[BrightBow]

"I like pie."

"I can make pie."

"Let's get married."

"I saw you naked."

"I did too, let's get married."

I say the supports are cheap enough already. :P

Honestly, after reading that female Robin x Chrom support, I was left in utter amazement about how good the male Robin support was by comparison. You actually got the impression that those two are really important to each other. And yet, the female Robin support is supposed to be the romantic one.

Edited January 25, 2016 by BrightBow

[Water Mage]

Honestly, the Male RobinXChrom support felt extremely romantic to me. I daresay it was the most romatic support in Awakening. In comparison, Female RobinXChrom support feels so lacking. There's no chemistry between the Female Robin and Chrom.

It even fits the Lucina tries to kill Robin scene, with Chrom's "Two halves of a greater whole line".

Chrom and Male Robin's frienship feels suprisingly genuine.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Water Mage

[SalShich10N]

Should be rated E-10+. Were getting nothing grown-up out of the deal in the game.

I'm only concerned on Birthright if NOA is to make them more rebellous to Nohr. When they have no rebellious nature whatsoever.

War is something very serious, specially in Nohr since stuff like murder and public executions are discussed, and of playable characters at that. Plus the game has enough "suggestive themes" by American standards from the portraits and several facilities such as the hotsprings and the accessory shop. The game is T rated through and through.