Does anyone else get irritated by the Nohr story? *possible spoilers*

[BruceLee]

Forget how they treat the Hoshidans, look at how Garon treats Kamui. The moment he gets back from Hoshido, Garon sends him on an obvious suicide mission, cackling about how he wants Kamui to suffer. Yup, Father of the Year. He's just oozing (hah) charisma.

Marx sees and hears all of this but doesn't rebel against Garon until the very end. It okay to abuse Kamui but when Garon attacks Elise, Camilla and Leon, THEN it's "something our real father would never do."

It is really inconsistent isn't it? Hurting his other siblings isn't something his father would do but slaughtering defenseless people is?

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

*sigh*

Well look just as you have problems with Nohr's story I myself along with others have problems with Hoshido's story.

"The fact that Mikoto doesn't show up in Kamui's near death experience in Birthright really annoys me and even Gunther not showing up as he sadly is most likely dead in the version because Aqua wasn't chased out of Hoshido and thus didn't visit the Invisible Kingdom like she did in Conquest and in doing so saved his life. Not to mention I feel like the scenes and dialogue differences in Conquest were handled a lot better too.

First off for one during the choice if Kamui chooses Birthright Xander is getting multiple hits on Kamui and Ryoma is no where to be found until the last moment (no seriously where the heck was he?), but in Conquest Xander is right beside Kamui and Ryoma only gets in 1 hit that hurts him and then from there Xander interferes and tells him to back off and that right there struck me as him being a better older brother, especially since he has multiple times has been assisting Kamui in telling Garon of his deeds and in giving him back up and has been more relevant than that of Ryoma who appears so late in the story with everyone wondering where he is.

Then two the Rainbow Sage upgrade for the Yatogami is better in Conquest because Leo ends up compromising with Kamui and there weapons both respond to their feelings, but in the other version with Takumi it's just through belief in the Fire Emblem... and that's really a poor way to show a shining moment in the story and it feels half assed as a result.

Lastly three Lilith's death was more realistic in Conquest as we saw Kamui was showing signs of fatigue and is sneaked attacked by a Faceless and Lilith saves his life there, but in Birthright this sequence happens at the beginning of the chapter with Kamui not one bit looking tired and Ganz is RIGHT IN FRONT OF KAMUI and charges at him with an axe and Kamui with a sword and we all know how this goes, but Kamui shows just poor reaction time and Lilith saves him even Xander's speech is better than Ryoma's as he brings up the importance of another ally dieing and how he should comes to terms with that along with him being the leader of the army and if he dies then the rest of them are lost (bringing more emphasis on him being the light within the darkness), but Ryoma doesn't bring up at all of another possible ally dieing.

In fact we know that by Garon's orders Kamui is the leader of the army over Xander, but for whatever reason in Birthright once Ryoma joins you would think he would take charge, but he doesn't and again Kamui doesn't spare any Nohrian soldiers aside from key characters showing his lack of caring about both sides if you ask me and it is instead Ryoma who spares Nohrian soldier lives as shown in the latest translation video from linkmstr and yes Kamui was in the process of being by Lilith's side to be bothered by anything else, but it still goes to show you he has not yet done what is to be expected from a character from both sides and it is just inexcusable and don't even get me started on Zorua's wasted development in Birthright and his down right stupidity for even thinking that Kamui should be the only one to spared while everyone else in the army gets butchered and thinking Kamui would be fine with that. Overall while neither Birthright or Conquest or canon with the true path being Relevations if it were just those two Conquest seems to have more in common with the third path as far as character deaths go (Crimson) and not happening (Gunther and Flora) and even the mention of the Invisible Kingdom to boot."

To also add to the above there's Clear's off screen death which Flora doesn't even hint (a good opportunity if she battles Felicia would have been good, but no). And then there's the unfortunate fact that Kamui isn't related to the Hoshido siblings (Ryoma freaking lies about and I can't believe Kamui recovers from it)... which just killed it for me.

Right now I'm starting to feel depress about Fates overall now. Meltlilith who was both the one in that forum topic I posted and who I discussed with about on the game said "Don't completely subscribe to the group mentality this place seems to have and view various peoples' opinions - preferably if they've actually played and can read the game - before forming your own opinion." so for now I'll just wait for the game to release and see if localization can make a few changes here and if I missed anything. Hoping for changes like make the upgrade for the Yato sword better with Takumi instead of a belief in the Fire Emblem it should have been learning to trust one another because if it was through belief then that could have been the upgrade with all the siblings (see my reason for why that annoys me x.x).

Edited January 30, 2016 by AbsoluteZer0Nova

[Tolvir]

My problem is it was advertised as a revolution/redemption story, and came out the complete opposite. I would of loved to see a good story of sacrifices and redemption for a kingdom that was once for the most part evil, but nope we got this. I also would of liked a good reason as to why Nohr was so evil. I think a good story would of been to give Hoshido a bit of a dark side and have it be the reason why Nohr is the way they are. Something like a war between the 2 thirty years ago where Hoshido was actually the aggressors. Have Nohr before the events of the war be your typical fantasy kingdom that was lawful good for lack of a better term. Paladins, Knights, light mages, etc. Even Garon was a good king that was loved by the people. during the course of the war Nohr starts winning, so Hoshido pulls a dirty trick to try and topple Nohr. Pretty much Hoshido attempts to assassinate Nohr's royal family. They kill Garon's wife, and the crown prince, but fail to kill Garon and the youngest son, Xander. This kicks off Nohr's downfall. Garon turns away from what he used to be out of grief and anger over the death of his wife and oldest son, the army is demoralized because of the death of the queen and the prince, and how easy it happened, and eventually turns Nohr from a pure and good kingdom, to an angry vengeful kingdom. This would give a motivation and reason for Nohr starting a war again, and for being as evil as they are, and give Hoshido a bit of a darker side. Of course it needs a lot more fleshing out, but it is a start to what this could of been, and I thought this up in about 5 minutes. Imagine if they just sat down and really worked on and fleshed out this entire story, it could of been one of the best ones yet.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Tolvir

[BruceLee]

*sigh*

Well look just as you have problems with Nohr's story I myself along with others have problems with Hoshido's story.

"The fact that Mikoto doesn't show up in Kamui's near death experience in Birthright really annoys me and even Gunther not showing up as he sadly is most likely dead in the version because Aqua wasn't chased out of Hoshido and thus didn't visit the Invisible Kingdom like she did in Conquest and in doing so saved his life. Not to mention I feel like the scenes and dialogue differences in Conquest were handled a lot better too.

First off for one during the choice if Kamui chooses Birthright Xander is getting multiple hits on Kamui and Ryoma is no where to be found until the last moment (no seriously where the heck was he?), but in Conquest Xander is right beside Kamui and Ryoma only gets in 1 hit that hurts him and then from there Xander interferes and tells him to back off and that right there struck me as him being a better older brother, especially since he has multiple times has been assisting Kamui in telling Garon of his deeds and in giving him back up and has been more relevant than that of Ryoma who appears so late in the story with everyone wondering where he is.

Then two the Rainbow Sage upgrade for the Yatogami is better in Conquest because Leo ends up compromising with Kamui and there weapons both respond to their feelings, but in the other version with Takumi it's just through belief in the Fire Emblem... and that's really a poor way to show a shining moment in the story and it feels half assed as a result.

Lastly three Lilith's death was more realistic in Conquest as we saw Kamui was showing signs of fatigue and is sneaked attacked by a Faceless and Lilith saves his life there, but in Birthright this sequence happens at the beginning of the chapter with Kamui not one bit looking tired and Ganz is RIGHT IN FRONT OF KAMUI and charges at him with an axe and Kamui with a sword and we all know how this goes, but Kamui shows just poor reaction time and Lilith saves him even Xander's speech is better than Ryoma's as he brings up the importance of another ally dieing and how he should comes to terms with that along with him being the leader of the army and if he dies then the rest of them are lost (bringing more emphasis on him being the light within the darkness), but Ryoma doesn't bring up at all of another possible ally dieing.

In fact we know that by Garon's orders Kamui is the leader of the army over Xander, but for whatever reason in Birthright once Ryoma joins you would think he would take charge, but he doesn't and again Kamui doesn't spare any Nohrian soldiers aside from key characters showing his lack of caring about both sides if you ask me and it is instead Ryoma who spares Nohrian soldier lives as shown in the latest translation video from linkmstr and yes Kamui was in the process of being by Lilith's side to be bothered by anything else, but it still goes to show you he has not yet done what is to be expected from a character from both sides and it is just inexcusable and don't even get me started on Zorua's wasted development in Birthright and his down right stupidity for even thinking that Kamui should be the only one to spared while everyone else in the army gets butchered and thinking Kamui would be fine with that. Overall while neither Birthright or Conquest or canon with the true path being Relevations if it were just those two Conquest seems to have more in common with the third path as far as character deaths go (Crimson) and not happening (Gunther and Flora) and even the mention of the Invisible Kingdom to boot."

To also add to the above there's Clear's off screen death which Flora doesn't even hint (a good opportunity if she battles Felicia would have been good, but no). And then there's the unfortunate fact that Kamui isn't related to the Hoshido siblings (Ryoma freaking lies about and I can't believe Kamui recovers from it)... which just killed it for me.

Right now I'm starting to feel depress about Fates overall now. Meltlilith who was both the one in that forum topic I posted and who I discussed with about on the game said "Don't completely subscribe to the group mentality this place seems to have and view various peoples' opinions - preferably if they've actually played and can read the game - before forming your own opinion." so for now I'll just wait for the game to release and see if localization can make a few changes here and if I missed anything. Hoping for changes like make the upgrade for the Yato sword better with Takumi instead of a belief in the Fire Emblem it should have been learning to trust one another because if it was through belief then that could have been the upgrade with all the siblings (see my reason for why that annoys me x.x).

I hear you, the Hoshido route definitely has its faults aswell. It's just that with the Nohr route, the whole premise is based on you following Garon's orders. So the game constantly throws it's faults in your face, that's why it irritates me a lot more than Hoshido's faults.

My problem is it was advertised as a revolution/redemption story, and came out the complete opposite. I would of loved to see a good story of sacrifices and redemption for a kingdom that was once for the most part evil, but nope we got this. I also would of liked a good reason as to why Nohr was so evil. I think a good story would of been to give Hoshido a bit of a dark side and have it be the reason why Nohr is the way they are. Something like a war between the 2 thirty years ago where Hoshido was actually the aggressors. Have Nohr before the events of the war be your typical fantasy kingdom that was lawful good for lack of a better term. Paladins, Knights, light mages, etc. Even Garon was a good king that was loved by the people. during the course of the war Nohr starts winning, so Hoshido pulls a dirty trick to try and topple Nohr. Pretty much Hoshido attempts to assassinate Nohr's royal family. They kill Garon's wife, and the crown prince, but fail to kill Garon and the youngest son, Xander. This kicks off Nohr's downfall. Garon turns away from what he used to be out of grief and anger over the death of his wife and oldest son, the army is demoralized because of the death of the queen and the prince, and how easy it happened, and eventually turns Nohr from a pure and good kingdom, to an angry vengeful kingdom. This would give a motivation and reason for Nohr starting a war again, and for being as evil as they are, and give Hoshido a bit of a darker side.

I like this. It would make the game a lot less black and white and give me an actual reason to side with Nohr over Hoshido.

[riolumaster]

My problem is it was advertised as a revolution/redemption story, and came out the complete opposite. I would of loved to see a good story of sacrifices and redemption for a kingdom that was once for the most part evil, but nope we got this. I also would of liked a good reason as to why Nohr was so evil. I think a good story would of been to give Hoshido a bit of a dark side and have it be the reason why Nohr is the way they are. Something like a war between the 2 thirty years ago where Hoshido was actually the aggressors. Have Nohr before the events of the war be your typical fantasy kingdom that was lawful good for lack of a better term. Paladins, Knights, light mages, etc. Even Garon was a good king that was loved by the people. during the course of the war Nohr starts winning, so Hoshido pulls a dirty trick to try and topple Nohr. Pretty much Hoshido attempts to assassinate Nohr's royal family. They kill Garon's wife, and the crown prince, but fail to kill Garon and the youngest son, Xander. This kicks off Nohr's downfall. Garon turns away from what he used to be out of grief and anger over the death of his wife and oldest son, the army is demoralized because of the death of the queen and the prince, and how easy it happened, and eventually turns Nohr from a pure and good kingdom, to an angry vengeful kingdom. This would give a motivation and reason for Nohr starting a war again, and for being as evil as they are, and give Hoshido a bit of a darker side. Of course it needs a lot more fleshing out, but it is a start to what this could of been, and I thought this up in about 5 minutes. Imagine if they just sat down and really worked on and fleshed out this entire story, it could of been one of the best ones yet.

Wow, its kind of sad that you were able to write a better backstory in five minutes than they could in however many months they had to write the story.

All they really needed to do was make an opening sequence that showed how the hostilities started, and the stories eould have been improved. They kind of do it here, but the pre-Fates info is all split up between the story and the supports, and it still isn't done well. Even in Awakening Chrom gave some backstory for the Ylisse-Plegia war.

[arvilino]

My problem is it was advertised as a revolution/redemption story, and came out the complete opposite. I would of loved to see a good story of sacrifices and redemption for a kingdom that was once for the most part evil, but nope we got this. I also would of liked a good reason as to why Nohr was so evil. I think a good story would of been to give Hoshido a bit of a dark side and have it be the reason why Nohr is the way they are. Something like a war between the 2 thirty years ago where Hoshido was actually the aggressors. Have Nohr before the events of the war be your typical fantasy kingdom that was lawful good for lack of a better term. Paladins, Knights, light mages, etc. Even Garon was a good king that was loved by the people. during the course of the war Nohr starts winning, so Hoshido pulls a dirty trick to try and topple Nohr. Pretty much Hoshido attempts to assassinate Nohr's royal family. They kill Garon's wife, and the crown prince, but fail to kill Garon and the youngest son, Xander. This kicks off Nohr's downfall. Garon turns away from what he used to be out of grief and anger over the death of his wife and oldest son, the army is demoralized because of the death of the queen and the prince, and how easy it happened, and eventually turns Nohr from a pure and good kingdom, to an angry vengeful kingdom. This would give a motivation and reason for Nohr starting a war again, and for being as evil as they are, and give Hoshido a bit of a darker side. Of course it needs a lot more fleshing out, but it is a start to what this could of been, and I thought this up in about 5 minutes. Imagine if they just sat down and really worked on and fleshed out this entire story, it could of been one of the best ones yet.

That would however completley conflict with the set up they have going. Birthright is supposed to be the typical Fire Emblem Tale so Hoshido needs to be something along the lines of Pherae, Altea, etc. when it comes to moral choices newcomers to series tend to lean towards the "good" choice which in this case also reflects the more manageable campaign for beginners. Make it more vague a or even pose Nohr as the pure/good kingdom and Hoshido as the original aggressor and you'd have so many new players being thrown into the deepest end of Fire Emblem with standard unpromoted enemies running around with skills because they wanted to make the right choice.

I think the stories they written complement and reflect the choices and consequences of the two options but also the game design and understanding player psychology far better than any "both sides are ambiguously grey, here choose!" story could accomplish in a videogame.

Edited January 30, 2016 by arvilino

[BruceLee]

That would however completley conflict with the set up they have going. Birthright is supposed to be the typical Fire Emblem Tale so Hoshido needs to be something along the lines of Pherae, Altea, etc. when it comes to moral choices newcomers to series tend to lean towards the "good" choice which in this case also reflects the more manageable campaign for beginners. Make it more vague a or even pose Nohr as the pure/good kingdom and Hoshido as the original aggressor and you'd have so many new players being thrown into the deepest end of Fire Emblem with standard unpromoted enemies running around with skills because they wanted to make the right choice.

I think the stories they written complement and reflect the choices and consequences of the two options but also the game design and understanding player psychology far better than any "both sides are ambiguously grey, here choose!" story could accomplish in a videogame.

The problem isn't that Conquest is the ''evil'', ''black'', or ''bad'' route. The problem is that they are objectively in the wrong and the game tries to show it in another light.

Essentially, they are ''black'' but the game tries to paint them as ''grey''. And that's really annoying.

Edited February 1, 2016 by BruceLee

[BruceLee]

Any more opinions?

[Tolvir]

That would however completley conflict with the set up they have going. Birthright is supposed to be the typical Fire Emblem Tale so Hoshido needs to be something along the lines of Pherae, Altea, etc. when it comes to moral choices newcomers to series tend to lean towards the "good" choice which in this case also reflects the more manageable campaign for beginners. Make it more vague a or even pose Nohr as the pure/good kingdom and Hoshido as the original aggressor and you'd have so many new players being thrown into the deepest end of Fire Emblem with standard unpromoted enemies running around with skills because they wanted to make the right choice.

I think the stories they written complement and reflect the choices and consequences of the two options but also the game design and understanding player psychology far better than any "both sides are ambiguously grey, here choose!" story could accomplish in a videogame.

The problem is that goes against what they advertised. Nohr was not supposed to be the clearly evil kingdom. Yes it was supposed to be closer to the evil side of the alignment system, but that was supposed to change over the course of the story. Nohr overall was meant to be a redemption story more than anything, which is why it is so annoying. Hoshido on the other hand is clearly supposed to be on the good side of the alignment system, but this is where everything really starts to get messed up. Both sides are supposed to be reasonable options, but Hoshido destroys this with having virtually no flaws at all. There isn't a single evil thing they have done, they are practically perfect. The only reason to side with Nohr is choosing the family you know over strangers. Even that falls short because Corrin regrets his decision in the Nohr route, putting more emphasis on Hoshido being the best option of the two.

The background I brought up wasn't meant to make Hoshido the evil kingdom. It was meant to give a background to why the things are as bad as they are. This also would of been a good part to Hoshido's story because it would land a bit of the fault on Hoshido for the war, instead of just Nohr. It could lead to an interesting situation in Hoshido by having this be a secret kept by certain parts of the royal family. Keep all the people that hated Nohr with a passion like Hinoka, and then have a reveal about halfway through the game where the characters finds out what happened to Nohr. Having a reveal like this halfway through the game would of hit the player and the characters with a ton of bricks knowing now that they are the cause of Nohr being the way they are. It would allow for a situation of feeling sorry for Nohr and the situation they are in even when you chose Hoshido over Nohr.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Tolvir

[Emperor Hardin]

That would however completley conflict with the set up they have going. Birthright is supposed to be the typical Fire Emblem Tale so Hoshido needs to be something along the lines of Pherae, Altea, etc. when it comes to moral choices newcomers to series tend to lean towards the "good" choice which in this case also reflects the more manageable campaign for beginners. Make it more vague a or even pose Nohr as the pure/good kingdom and Hoshido as the original aggressor and you'd have so many new players being thrown into the deepest end of Fire Emblem with standard unpromoted enemies running around with skills because they wanted to make the right choice.

I think the stories they written complement and reflect the choices and consequences of the two options but also the game design and understanding player psychology far better than any "both sides are ambiguously grey, here choose!" story could accomplish in a videogame.

Altea and Pherae were never even close to perfect, not to mention they were both incredibly tiny unlike Hoshido.

[Etrurian emperor]

I am annoyed by Nohr's story because I think its deliberately thrown under the buss to make Hoshido come off all the better.

The justification Nohr has are just thrown under the rug so they can focus on some mustache twirlers killing people for fun. Rather than well intended extremists Garon's inner circle is staffed exclusively by psychopaths. I don't think even the more moral characters in Nohr even mention the lack of resources all that much, just that they must do as Garon tells them to do.

I'm confused about this because they already used this lore 20 years ago and for some reason showed much more nuance in a decades old SNES game. The resource starving Tracia was clearly the bad guy in the conflict with Lenster but its made clear that they are driven by poverty. Trabant is vile but he really does care about this and I recall Tracian commanders telling you its nothing personal when fighting them. The following game even expends on this by pointing out the noble Cuan wasn't blameless in the conflict either.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Etrurian emperor

[GrayClouds23]

The problem with Nohr is the characters are much more lively and cute~ yet dat story. Still love Conquest more after actually playing it. Though I wanted to see Takumi get brutally murdered eventually, I hate his guts. At least Joker is the original asshole of the story.

[NekoKnight]

So many emperors in this thread...I'm starting to feel inadequate,only being a knight.

The justification Nohr has are just thrown under the rug so they can focus on some mustache twirlers killing people for fun. Rather than well intended extremists Garon's inner circle is staffed exclusively by psychopaths. I don't think even the more moral characters in Nohr even mention the lack of resources all that much, just that they must do as Garon tells them to do.

This is my main beef. The setting and characters just scream for there being some pragmatic reason for the invasion, but it's all ignored in favor of "we're invading because that's a bad guy thing to do". Considering the people you control in Nohr are mostly decent people, you'd think there would be more of a dialogue about why they're doing what they're doing and the moral implications of it. If Nohr were a country of well intentioned extremists, or ruthless by necessity, you might be able to sympathize with them but the invasion happens primarily "because Garon said so". Does it even make sense for a character like Harold to be assisting in the invasion of a peaceful country?

[Rapier]

The problem isn't that Conquest is the ''evil'', ''black'', or ''bad'' route. The problem is that they are objectively in the wrong and the game tries to show it in another light.

Essentially, they are ''black'' but the game tries to paint them as ''grey''. And that's really annoying.

That made me think... Most of the characters in Nohr are psychopaths, sociopaths or possess serious personality issues. Pieri is an homicidal maniac that wants to kill things, Charlotte has no qualms about using people on her own schemes for her own benefit, Zero is a sadomasochist outlaw, Belka is an emotionless killing machine, Camilla is an obsessive-possessive person who is probably more than willing to kill the person they're so obsessive about should they abandon or resist her (even Kamui, as shown in Birthright). The only "normal" people who are exclusive to the Nohr route are Xander, Harold, Elise, arguably Leon and the Awakening expies (who were just recycled). I haven't had much contact with Benoit, so maybe he also fits in the latter category.

It's the world of crapsack, compared to Hoshido, where the only people who are nuts are Oboro (she has no problem with encouraging and comitting a mass genocide of Nohrians) and Takumi (although most of his actions were influenced by other factors, pushing the worst of his personality).

Edited February 3, 2016 by Rapier

[Time the Crestfallen]

That made me think... Most of the characters in Nohr are psychopaths, sociopaths or possess serious personality issues. Pieri is an homicidal maniac that wants to kill things, Charlotte has no qualms about using people on her own schemes for her own benefit, Zero is a sadomasochist outlaw, Belka is an emotionless killing machine, Camilla is an obsessive-possessive person who is probably more than willing to kill the person they're so obsessive about should they abandon or resist her (even Kamui, as shown in Birthright). The only "normal" people who are exclusive to the Nohr route are Xander, Harold, Elise, arguably Leon and the Awakening expies (who were just recycled). I haven't had much contact with Benoit, so maybe he also fits in the latter category.

It's the world of crapsack, compared to Hoshido, where the only people who are nuts are Oboro (she has no problem with encouraging and comitting a mass genocide of Nohrians) and Takumi (although most of his actions were influenced by other factors, pushing the worst of his personality).

Well Leo canonically has a crush on Camilla, so...

[NekoKnight]

That made me think... Most of the characters in Nohr are psychopaths, sociopaths or possess serious personality issues. Pieri is an homicidal maniac that wants to kill things, Charlotte has no qualms about using people on her own schemes for her own benefit, Zero is a sadomasochist outlaw, Belka is an emotionless killing machine, Camilla is an obsessive-possessive person who is probably more than willing to kill the person they're so obsessive about should they abandon or resist her (even Kamui, as shown in Birthright). The only "normal" people who are exclusive to the Nohr route are Xander, Harold, Elise, arguably Leon and the Awakening expies (who were just recycled). I haven't had much contact with Benoit, so maybe he also fits in the latter category.

It's the world of crapsack, compared to Hoshido, where the only people who are nuts are Oboro (she has no problem with encouraging and comitting a mass genocide of Nohrians) and Takumi (although most of his actions were influenced by other factors, pushing the worst of his personality).

You're missing quite a few Nohrians (I know you excluded neutral characters but they still count). Felicia, Joker, Flora, Silas, Elfie, Benoit and Gunter are all reasonably well adjusted people. You could probably have Flannel added to the list if you take the people he killed as self defense. Charlotte also has a reason for being a gold digger.

I don't recall Oboro calling for mass genocide...

[Time the Crestfallen]

You're missing quite a few Nohrians (I know you excluded neutral characters but they still count). Felicia, Joker, Flora, Silas, Elfie, Benoit and Gunter are all reasonably well adjusted people. You could probably have Flannel added to the list if you take the people he killed as self defense. Charlotte also has a reason for being a gold digger.

I don't recall Oboro calling for mass genocide...

She actually does the opposite. In her support with Jakob, she finds the dispatching of enemy wounded after a battle to be horrid and barbaric (obviously referring to Nohrians in Birthright). She also (initially) expresses disgust that Jakob volunteers for it.

[Rapier]

You're missing quite a few Nohrians (I know you excluded neutral characters but they still count). Felicia, Joker, Flora, Silas, Elfie, Benoit and Gunter are all reasonably well adjusted people. You could probably have Flannel added to the list if you take the people he killed as self defense. Charlotte also has a reason for being a gold digger.

I don't recall Oboro calling for mass genocide...

That's true, I didn't think this through. The overall characters from Nohr aren't that bad, true. The character rooster exclusive to the Nohr route overall is definitely darker than the Hoshido route, though. It likely was done to show a darker side of the story on the Conquest route. Also, I'd rather not use Charlotte's upbringing as an excuse for her personality, since upbringing is not the sole factor in molding one's character and it'd arguably be a shallow, convenient excuse for every character, including villains.

Yes, calling for mass genocide was an exaggeration of mine, yet she is all too happy to slaughter every Nohrian that she encounters and she's very vocal about her intent to do so. I know she has reasons to hate Nohr, but her hate toward the country and every Nohrian is not so healthy. Even Hinoka is more tame than her regarding Nohrians.

She actually does the opposite. In her support with Jakob, she finds the dispatching of enemy wounded after a battle to be horrid and barbaric (obviously referring to Nohrians in Birthright). She also (initially) expresses disgust that Jakob volunteers for it.

Oh. I made my conclusion from her speech on the chapter she joins the group, her personal skill and her personal profile. I haven't read that support of hers with Jakob, since he wasn't on my Birthright team (I thought that the Jakob that joined in My Castle after chapter 15 or so was some extra character sent over by the internet or something so I ignored it completely). That's good to know.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Rapier

[Water Mage]

That's true, I didn't think this through. The overall characters from Nohr aren't that bad, true. The character rooster exclusive to the Nohr route overall is definitely darker than the Hoshido route, though. It likely was done to show a darker side of the story on the Conquest route. Also, I'd rather not use Charlotte's upbringing as an excuse for her personality, since upbringing is not the sole factor in molding one's character and it'd arguably be a shallow, convenient excuse for every character, including villains.

Yes, calling for mass genocide was an exaggeration of mine, yet she is all too happy to slaughter every Nohrian that she encounters and she's very vocal about her intent to do so. I know she has reasons to hate Nohr, but her hate toward the country and every Nohrian is not so healthy. Even Hinoka is more tame than her regarding Nohrians.

Oh. I made my conclusion from her speech on the chapter she joins the group, her personal skill and her personal profile. I haven't read that support of hers with Jakob, since he wasn't on my Birthright team (I thought that the Jakob that joined in My Castle after chapter 15 or so was some extra character sent over by the internet or something so I ignored it completely). That's good to know.

There's more to Charlotte than being a gold digger however.

In some supports it shows that she is quite cynical, and honestly believes that people only judge by appearance.

And she also seems scared of revealing her physical strenght, since she thinks that women that are physically strong are not well-recieved in society, and that men only want weak women and dislike women that are stronger than them.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Water Mage

[warchiefwilliams]

For me, despite its flaws from a narrative perspective (magical crystal ball anyone?), Conquest will remain superior to Birthright for a reason that Mr. Absolute brought up; how the two royal families treat Kamui. As previously mentioned, Xander (at least in Conquest) always rushes to support Kamui, who he views to be his younger sibling despite different blood and is more than willing to sacrifice himself to save Kamui. Its not just in chapter 6 when Xander stops Ryouma after one attack, but after they return to Krakenburg, Xander pretty much tells Garon to go screw himself after Garon orders him to kill Kamui. It's not just Xander, every single Nohrian sibling is more than willing to jump in front of each other to take the bullet aimed at one of their own. This sort of loyalty to one's family, even if they are not bound by blood, is what makes the Nohrian family far and above better than the Hoshidoans in my view. Again, Xander jumped in to save Kamui after one attack, Ryouma takes his sweet time, almost if he couldn't be arsed.

Actually, let me mention something that has been bothering me about Birthright that makes Conquest look very good in comparison. For the sake of me not getting banned, the following rant is behind a spoiler tag.

Really, the feeling I get after analyzing the story (or at least the translated, non-localized version) is that the Hoshidoan siblings are using Kamui in Birthright. Think about it. They are aware that kamui isn't truly their brother, yet they treat them like they are, only revealing the true nature of their relationship after falling in love withe them (I haven't read the transcript recently so I do not know if it is revealed anywhere else). Not only does this ruin the entire premise of calling the route "Birthright" but it also forces the question "What were you truly fighting for?" In the end, the only answer I could come up with was that Kamui was harboring anger against Garon for trying to kill them (rightfully so) but was being goaded on by his supposed "family" to the point where Kamui has no problem killing and letting others kill in the name of a cause which Kamui has only been on-board with for a few weeks TOPS. Kamui in Birthright has no problem A) killing large numbers of hostile troops as opposed to Conquest where they labored to avoid killing. B) Kamui also doesn't seem to be negatively affected when people he was close to (like Elise, Xander and Flora) die, as if they are letting their rage blind them or they have been seduced by their "family's" side of the story. Finally C) Kamui should be at least partially aware of the condition of Nohr (I don't care how sheltered you are, you got to be somewhat aware of the outside world) and yet has no problem trampling all over it goaded on by his Hoshidoan "siblings" who placate any questions with halfhearted offers of support for later after Nohr has been pounded into dust. You would think that being forced to fight a land that you regarded as your home for so long and fighting people who you thought were your family would cause you to hesitate even just a bit, but nope! Not Birthright!Kamui. Again, I just get the feeling that he is being used as a pawn by Hoshido to deal with Nohr.

That's just my opinion though. Feel free to point out any flaws in my arguments.

EDIT: One of these days I will learn to spoiler tag things properly...

Edited February 3, 2016 by warchiefwilliams

[NekoKnight]

Oh. I made my conclusion from her speech on the chapter she joins the group, her personal skill and her personal profile. I haven't read that support of hers with Jakob, since he wasn't on my Birthright team (I thought that the Jakob that joined in My Castle after chapter 15 or so was some extra character sent over by the internet or something so I ignored it completely). That's good to know.

Oboro is really the only person besides Yuugiri with a particularly negative personality trait, and it's mostly justified. She hates Nohrians in general for what they did to her family, but it doesn't mean she goes out of her way to be cruel. Supports with others indicate that she's willing to work for peace, despite her grudge. There aren't many things to criticize about Hoshido.

For me, despite its flaws from a narrative perspective (magical crystal ball anyone?), Conquest will remain superior to Birthright for a reason that Mr. Absolute brought up; how the two royal families treat Kamui. As previously mentioned, Xander (at least in Conquest) always rushes to support Kamui, who he views to be his younger sibling despite different blood and is more than willing to sacrifice himself to save Kamui. Its not just in chapter 6 when Xander stops Ryouma after one attack, but after they return to Krakenburg, Xander pretty much tells Garon to go screw himself after Garon orders him to kill Kamui. It's not just Xander, every single Nohrian sibling is more than willing to jump in front of each other to take the bullet aimed at one of their own. This sort of loyalty to one's family, even if they are not bound by blood, is what makes the Nohrian family far and above better than the Hoshidoans in my view. Again, Xander jumped in to save Kamui after one attack, Ryouma takes his sweet time, almost if he couldn't be arsed.

Actually, let me mention something that has been bothering me about Birthright that makes Conquest look very good in comparison. For the sake of me not getting banned, the following rant is behind a spoiler tag.

Really, the feeling I get after analyzing the story (or at least the translated, non-localized version) is that the Hoshidoan siblings are using Kamui in Birthright. Think about it. They are aware that kamui isn't truly their brother, yet they treat them like they are, only revealing the true nature of their relationship after falling in love withe them (I haven't read the transcript recently so I do not know if it is revealed anywhere else). Not only does this ruin the entire premise of calling the route "Birthright" but it also forces the question "What were you truly fighting for?" In the end, the only answer I could come up with was that Kamui was harboring anger against Garon for trying to kill them (rightfully so) but was being goaded on by his supposed "family" to the point where Kamui has no problem killing and letting others kill in the name of a cause which Kamui has only been on-board with for a few weeks TOPS. Kamui in Birthright has no problem A) killing large numbers of hostile troops as opposed to Conquest where they labored to avoid killing. B) Kamui also doesn't seem to be negatively affected when people he was close to (like Elise, Xander and Flora) die, as if they are letting their rage blind them or they have been seduced by their "family's" side of the story. Finally C) Kamui should be at least partially aware of the condition of Nohr (I don't care how sheltered you are, you got to be somewhat aware of the outside world) and yet has no problem trampling all over it goaded on by his Hoshidoan "siblings" who placate any questions with halfhearted offers of support for later after Nohr has been pounded into dust. You would think that being forced to fight a land that you regarded as your home for so long and fighting people who you thought were your family would cause you to hesitate even just a bit, but nope! Not Birthright!Kamui. Again, I just get the feeling that he is being used as a pawn by Hoshido to deal with Nohr.

That's just my opinion though. Feel free to point out any flaws in my arguments.

EDIT: One of these days I will learn to spoiler tag things properly...

I don't really buy it. There isn't much evidence to support that theory and some things that contradict it.

If I recall correctly, only Ryoma is aware of Kamui not sharing blood with the Hoshidan siblings. Hinoka cared about Kamui as a sibling so much that she devoted her life to becoming a warrior and rescuing him. She's also moved to tears upon being reunited. Sakura obviously isn't a schemer and Takumi didn't want Kamui there at all. It's not like Kamui is especially important as a person, anyway. He can turn into a small dragon and he has a cool sword. He's not super valuable as a war asset, nor for political reasons.

The writing for Hoshido and Nohr is pretty simple. Hoshido is good and Nohr is bad so Kamui doesn't have to feel bad about killing Nohrians, but he has to spare as many Hoshidans as possible. That's the 'logic' they're using, not an elaborate brainwashing attempt by Ryoma and friends.

[Rapier]

I think I understand why Ryoma takes his time before saving Kamui in Chapter 6 from Xander's attacks. While the latter sees them as their little brother/sister, Ryoma sees them as their brother/sister but also as a grown man/woman. On Nohr, they were doted by their siblings, who treated him/her like a baby. On Hoshido, they're more like comrades who trust each other, and IIRC Kamui is older than Takumi and Sakura (citation needed), so Kamui isn't just a youngest brother/sister to be pampered, as they were in Nohr.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Rapier

[Thor Odinson]

I think I understand why Ryoma takes his time before saving Kamui in Chapter 6 from Xander's attacks. While the latter sees them as their little brother/sister, Ryoma sees them as their brother/sister but also as a grown man/woman. On Nohr, they were doted by their siblings, who treated him/her like a baby. On Hoshido, they're more like comrades who trust each other, and IIRC Kamui is older than Takumi and Sakura (citation needed), so Kamui isn't just a youngest brother/sister to be pampered, as they were in Nohr.

I can't believe the Camilla/Ryouma support does anything useful but it's incredibly relevant here, because what you said here is exactly the attitude that Ryouma holds vs what Camilla holds in that support.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Oboro is really the only person besides Yuugiri with a particularly negative personality trait, and it's mostly justified. She hates Nohrians in general for what they did to her family, but it doesn't mean she goes out of her way to be cruel. Supports with others indicate that she's willing to work for peace, despite her grudge. There aren't many things to criticize about Hoshido.

Except for the fact that there's nothing to complain about.

Anyway, my main gripe is that the advertising and all the pre-release information available led us to believe that we were going to get a morally complex story with grey and gray morality to spare and what we got instead was a relatively simple and cliche story about the Good Kingdom vs the Evil Empire with a Third Faction operating from the shadows so that we can have a happy ending. If that's what they wanted to write that's fine, Good vs Evil is a template and you can do plenty of interesting stuff with it, but it strikes me as a a bit disingenuous when I'm offered a Poulet de Provençal and all I get is a six-pack of chicken McNuggets

[Alazen]

The problem is that goes against what they advertised.

Remember how the choice between Hoshido and Nohr was framed as BLOOD (complete with showing the Hoshido siblings) VS Loyalty? Even official sources before Fates' release had Kamui as a birth sibling.

Altea and Pherae were never even close to perfect, not to mention they were both incredibly tiny unlike Hoshido.

Altea was from the beginning of the series. Pherae isn't a nation in the way Bern or Etruria is. If you're going to bring up Pherae, then you should also bring up Ostia and Laus.

You're missing quite a few Nohrians (I know you excluded neutral characters but they still count). Felicia, Joker, Flora, Silas, Elfie, Benoit and Gunter are all reasonably well adjusted people. You could probably have Flannel added to the list if you take the people he killed as self defense. Charlotte also has a reason for being a gold digger.

I don't recall Oboro calling for mass genocide...

Felicia, Joker, Flora, Silas, and Gunter are all either Kamuisexuals or otherwise in Kamui's fanclub. Elfie is a retainer of the Light of Nohr. Benoit's gimmick is that he looks like a murdering thug but he's actually not.