Does anyone else get irritated by the Nohr story? *possible spoilers*

[sacredenigma]

I think I understand why Ryoma takes his time before saving Kamui in Chapter 6 from Xander's attacks. While the latter sees them as their little brother/sister, Ryoma sees them as their brother/sister but also as a grown man/woman. On Nohr, they were doted by their siblings, who treated him/her like a baby. On Hoshido, they're more like comrades who trust each other, and IIRC Kamui is older than Takumi and Sakura (citation needed), so Kamui isn't just a youngest brother/sister to be pampered, as they were in Nohr.

elise and leo are also younger than kamui though so even in nohr he wasnt the baby, he was the middle one

[Emperor Hardin]

Altea was from the beginning of the series. Pherae isn't a nation in the way Bern or Etruria is. If you're going to bring up Pherae, then you should also bring up Ostia and Laus.

Altea was also a vassal kingdom of Archanea, and even on its own, had many weak kings which was led to Gra's split.

[Ledrert]

For me, despite its flaws from a narrative perspective (magical crystal ball anyone?), Conquest will remain superior to Birthright for a reason that Mr. Absolute brought up; how the two royal families treat Kamui. As previously mentioned, Xander (at least in Conquest) always rushes to support Kamui, who he views to be his younger sibling despite different blood and is more than willing to sacrifice himself to save Kamui. Its not just in chapter 6 when Xander stops Ryouma after one attack, but after they return to Krakenburg, Xander pretty much tells Garon to go screw himself after Garon orders him to kill Kamui. It's not just Xander, every single Nohrian sibling is more than willing to jump in front of each other to take the bullet aimed at one of their own. This sort of loyalty to one's family, even if they are not bound by blood, is what makes the Nohrian family far and above better than the Hoshidoans in my view. Again, Xander jumped in to save Kamui after one attack, Ryouma takes his sweet time, almost if he couldn't be arsed.

Actually, let me mention something that has been bothering me about Birthright that makes Conquest look very good in comparison. For the sake of me not getting banned, the following rant is behind a spoiler tag.

Really, the feeling I get after analyzing the story (or at least the translated, non-localized version) is that the Hoshidoan siblings are using Kamui in Birthright. Think about it. They are aware that kamui isn't truly their brother, yet they treat them like they are, only revealing the true nature of their relationship after falling in love withe them (I haven't read the transcript recently so I do not know if it is revealed anywhere else). Not only does this ruin the entire premise of calling the route "Birthright" but it also forces the question "What were you truly fighting for?" In the end, the only answer I could come up with was that Kamui was harboring anger against Garon for trying to kill them (rightfully so) but was being goaded on by his supposed "family" to the point where Kamui has no problem killing and letting others kill in the name of a cause which Kamui has only been on-board with for a few weeks TOPS. Kamui in Birthright has no problem A) killing large numbers of hostile troops as opposed to Conquest where they labored to avoid killing. B) Kamui also doesn't seem to be negatively affected when people he was close to (like Elise, Xander and Flora) die, as if they are letting their rage blind them or they have been seduced by their "family's" side of the story. Finally C) Kamui should be at least partially aware of the condition of Nohr (I don't care how sheltered you are, you got to be somewhat aware of the outside world) and yet has no problem trampling all over it goaded on by his Hoshidoan "siblings" who placate any questions with halfhearted offers of support for later after Nohr has been pounded into dust. You would think that being forced to fight a land that you regarded as your home for so long and fighting people who you thought were your family would cause you to hesitate even just a bit, but nope! Not Birthright!Kamui. Again, I just get the feeling that he is being used as a pawn by Hoshido to deal with Nohr.

That's just my opinion though. Feel free to point out any flaws in my arguments.

EDIT: One of these days I will learn to spoiler tag things properly...

I have to respond some of your "points" you put forward. Of course, it's my point of view. Let's see...

You're absolutely right about the devoted part of Nohr's siblings. But just one thing : we can see it since Garon would like to kill Kamui. We don't have this confrontation in Hoshido, but I think the Hoshido's siblings will do the same. And I'll talk about themselves since, in the start, Takumi don't trust Kamui, so i'll doubt he'll take a hit to cover him. His distrust against Kamui is understandable.

About the A), I didn't remember one thing about Nohr's soldiers to be killed. Except Xander and his retainers. (But Ryouma and his retainers dies too in Conquest). I confess I didn't read all the Birthright story since I don't want to be fully spoiled for when I'll have the game, but...

B) But I remember his sadness when Xander was dying. And for Elise, Xander didn't let him the time to cry...

C) I'm not really sure. And it's Silas who tell Ryouma about that. So I think Kamui didn't know that. For your last sentence about the no-hesitation of Kamui, I have mixed feelings... You can be right, but... can someone who spend just a little time outside the castle can feels he's home as soon he's entering Nohr ? I'm not so sure. I remember Luke of Tales of the Abyss who doesn't feel at home in his hometown !

Edited February 3, 2016 by Ledrert

[Tharne]

Again, Xander jumped in to save Kamui after one attack, Ryouma takes his sweet time, almost if he couldn't be arsed.

I'm gonna say it but...Xander is on a horse. Horse Speed > Human Speed.

[BruceLee]

Kamui in Birthright has no problem A) killing large numbers of hostile troops as opposed to Conquest where they labored to avoid killing.

There's one major detail i feel like you're forgetting though. Nohr is the aggressor, Hoshido is not.

Avoiding killing some innocents is the least he can do when he's getting so many of them killed....

Edited February 3, 2016 by BruceLee

[Nyanko]

Nohr's story irritates me to no end but so do Birthright and Revelations' stories.

*edit*

I can fully understand why Xander would step in and defend Kamui. I wouldn't let my younger sibling who hasn't had much experience on the battlefield fight a tested warrior one on one. Absolutely not. Xander knows Kamui's limits as a fighter and would know he isn't prepared to face Ryoma alone at that point.

Anway, I think it's sweet that he wants to protect him. It tugs at my heart a bit more than Ryoma just standing by letting him handle it for a while.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Nyanko

[warchiefwilliams]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I figured I was just jumping at shadows while I was looking at the stories, or perhaps it was my desperate attempt to make the overall stories make sense.

[RedRob]

That made me think... Most of the characters in Nohr are psychopaths, sociopaths or possess serious personality issues. Pieri is an homicidal maniac that wants to kill things, Charlotte has no qualms about using people on her own schemes for her own benefit, Zero is a sadomasochist outlaw, Belka is an emotionless killing machine, Camilla is an obsessive-possessive person who is probably more than willing to kill the person they're so obsessive about should they abandon or resist her (even Kamui, as shown in Birthright). The only "normal" people who are exclusive to the Nohr route are Xander, Harold, Elise, arguably Leon and the Awakening expies (who were just recycled). I haven't had much contact with Benoit, so maybe he also fits in the latter category.

It's the world of crapsack, compared to Hoshido, where the only people who are nuts are Oboro (she has no problem with encouraging and comitting a mass genocide of Nohrians) and Takumi (although most of his actions were influenced by other factors, pushing the worst of his personality).

Pieri is like that due to witnessing a servant murder her mother at a young age, Charlotte has already been defended by others here, Zero is like that due to his rough childhood, and the same for Beruka. It's pretty much a prevalent theme in Nohr that your allies are decent people yet have messed up lives that cover up that fact. They're arguably some of the most realistic characters in Fates, compared to the ones in Hoshido, who I find quite bland and boring.

[Rapier]

elise and leo are also younger than kamui though so even in nohr he wasnt the baby, he was the middle one

Even though Kamui is older than Leon and Elise, they're still seen as the "baby sibling" who's sheltered by the rest. They were still pampered by the Nohr siblings to no end, as seen in the start of Conquest and before the decision in Chapter 5. Ryoma and Hinoka treat Kamui as a mature young man/woman, whereas Xander and Camilla are far too overprotective toward them. It takes half of Conquest for Xander to recognize Kamui's growth, and Camilla apparently remains overprotective. So, I understand why Ryoma took longer to defend Kamui, while Xander rushed to defend them immediately. The former sees Kamui as dependable, the latter sees Kamui as undependable (for a long time).

Also, I don't think the Nohr siblings' overprotection is a sign that they care more about Kamui than the Hoshido siblings, who are less protective.

Pieri is like that due to witnessing a servant murder her mother at a young age, Charlotte has already been defended by others here, Zero is like that due to his rough childhood, and the same for Beruka. It's pretty much a prevalent theme in Nohr that your allies are decent people yet have messed up lives that cover up that fact. They're arguably some of the most realistic characters in Fates, compared to the ones in Hoshido, who I find quite bland and boring.

I don't buy this. Oboro also had her parents (or her father/mother, I don't recall) murdered by Nohrians, hates them because of this, but isn't as psychothic as Pieri. Upbringing is not the sole factor that determines one's personality, and we even have Oboro to make the comparisson between both - therefore, I don't take it as a good excuse for someone's bad behavior. Belka is almost emotionless and Pieri is too innocent to notice that what she's doing is wrong, I get that, but Charlotte and Zero are also messed up in the head for having the discernment and acting bad despite of it. They're no different from Ganz, unless there are untranslated supports that I haven't read (because I can't understand moonrunes) that show them in a brighter light and back up the claim that they are decent people but with messed up lives.

Nohr's story irritates me to no end but so do Birthright and Revelations' stories.

Conquest earns more points because it is not like Birthright, where the characters just stroll inside Nohr, sneak around with an army (I don't even know how it is possible to hide an army that, as stated in the game, had enough manpower to face 10k Nohrians), invade Krakenstein Castle and be done with it. There are actually forts to be taken and walls to be broken (and defended by the enemy side). It feels more like a war game than Birthright.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Rapier

[nordopolica]

I feel like a lot of Nohr's story could be fixed by Kamui not being a little noncommittal bitch and actually committing to the invasion. Maybe removing slime dad or make him actually treat Kamui like a child / with love. With those in place, it'd still be underwhelming and not make sense, but I don't think I'd have so much of a problem with it tbh.

[Rapier]

The melted wax Garon with Robotnik's eyes / slime dad kind of took the white x grey morality away by making it obvious who is evil and who is good. Even the adoptive siblings see this, and I doubt such a conclusion would be reached if it was the real Garon all along. Conquest would've been way more interesting because of the siblings' dynamics.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Rapier

[NekoKnight]

Pieri is like that due to witnessing a servant murder her mother at a young age, Charlotte has already been defended by others here, Zero is like that due to his rough childhood, and the same for Beruka. It's pretty much a prevalent theme in Nohr that your allies are decent people yet have messed up lives that cover up that fact. They're arguably some of the most realistic characters in Fates, compared to the ones in Hoshido, who I find quite bland and boring.

Charlotte is the only one in that list I'd really defend. It's mentioned in her Marx support that she wants to send money to support her parents so she's not entirely selfish. As Rapier mentioned, your past doesn't give you an excuse for bad behavior in the present. Apart from being scornful towards Nohrians, Oboro turned out fine. Pieri still kills innocents, Zero is a major creep and Belka admits she would kill even her current allies if she was ordered to.

The melted wax Garon with Robotnik's eyes / slime dad kind of took the white x grey morality away by making it obvious who is evil and who is good. Even the adoptive siblings see this, and I doubt such a conclusion would be reached if it was the real Garon all along. Conquest would've been way more interesting because of the siblings' dynamics.

Garon was always transparently evil. The only thing him being Gooron changed was the Nohrian siblings getting a get-out-of-guilt-free card for killing him. You also have Ganz and Macbeth to complete the trinity of evil that makes up the Nohrian leadership.

[Rapier]

Yes, but was the original Garon as evil as the melted wax monster? I haven't finished playing Conquest (I'm on chapter 22). I don't mind spoilers anymore for Conquest and Birthright, so long as I'm not spoiled about IK.

Charlotte is the only one in that list I'd really defend. (...) Pieri still kills innocents, Zero is a major creep and Belka admits she would kill even her current allies if she was ordered to.

With that said, I don't think we can blame Pieri and Belka. Pieri does not have enough discernment to know that what she's doing is wrong (unless there is a support that states otherwise), and Belka is almost emotionless to the point she does not feel empathy or remorse. I think they have disorders or traumas that made them the way they are, and I don't think we can blame people for what they do in these cases, since their discernment is in question. Zero, however, has enough discernment but chooses to be the messed up creep thug that he is. He's like Dio, imo, in that he had a rough childhood but chose to continue being the same asshole because he is one at heart. Compare to Asura/Asyura, who was also a thief and lived half of his life in poverty and killing others to survive, but redeemed himself later on. Zero and Asura's cases are like Dio and Speedwagon's cases, for anyone who knows about JoJo.

Man, Giorno would be the most OPed second gen character

Edited February 4, 2016 by Rapier

[Elif]

With that said, I don't think we can blame Pieri and Belka. Pieri does not have enough discernment to know that what she's doing is wrong (unless there is a support that states otherwise), and Belka is almost emotionless to the point she does not feel empathy or remorse. I think they have disorders or traumas that made them the way they are, and I don't think we can blame people for what they do in these cases, since their discernment is in question. Zero, however, has enough discernment but chooses to be the messed up creep thug that he is. He's like Dio, imo, in that he had a rough childhood but chose to continue being the same asshole because he is one at heart. Compare to Asura/Asyura, who was also a thief and lived half of his life in poverty and killing others to survive, but redeemed himself later on. Zero and Asura's cases are like Dio and Speedwagon's cases, for anyone who knows about JoJo.

Man, Giorno would be the most OPed second gen character

it's even better knowing that zero and dio have the same voice actor too :')

-----

I just wish the Nohr's story was actually more like how it was commercialized (the revolution thing). I mean I kind of see it going on in the story, but the concept just wasn't executed well at all, imo. Oh well, as long as there's some improvements in the localized version! (:

[RedRob]

Charlotte is the only one in that list I'd really defend. It's mentioned in her Marx support that she wants to send money to support her parents so she's not entirely selfish. As Rapier mentioned, your past doesn't give you an excuse for bad behavior in the present. Apart from being scornful towards Nohrians, Oboro turned out fine. Pieri still kills innocents, Zero is a major creep and Belka admits she would kill even her current allies if she was ordered to.

Garon was always transparently evil. The only thing him being Gooron changed was the Nohrian siblings getting a get-out-of-guilt-free card for killing him. You also have Ganz and Macbeth to complete the trinity of evil that makes up the Nohrian leadership.

Fair enough on Pieri, though was their specific age ever mentioned? Like how old was Pieri when it happened? Because that could explain the differences between her and Oboro. Plus the emotional support one gets after enduring a trauma could effect how one is affected by it. Nohr seems to be a pretty messed up place, making it not the ideal place to recover from that kind of trauma, plus she apparently developed a distrust of servants after that, so she probably didn't have many people to rely on. Hoshido, however is a suetopia, so Oboro turning out fine doesn't surprise me.

Belka was abandoned in the slums and picked up by an assassin to be his apprentice, so that probably screwed her up, and the same with Zero, only with thieves. Both were abandoned at a young age, and were raised by people who only saw them as tools.

So I argue that the idea of "your past doesn't give you an excuse for bad behavior in the present" doesn't quite work for these characters, since they lived in an extremely unhealthy environment that wasn't fit for kids, and as a result grew up with an unhealthy mindset well into their adulthood, where by then their minds and brains had finished developing, and thus are unlikely to change without emotional support from others. Oboro, on the other hand probably grew up in a far more stable environment, making it easier to recover. Plus the recovery process for trauma can take quite a while, and one does not simply change over night, it is a gradual process.

So in short, you really can't compare Oboro to Pieri, Zero, and Belka, as they grew up in vastly different circumstances. I guess my point is that these characters should be pitied more than feared, and that upbringing while not the sole factor in personality, it is a very major factor, and that people like them should be given a chance to try and improve themselves before bring written off as psychos. Plus they aren't utterly psychotic. Belka offers up her life as an apology for her foster parent killing Oboro's parents and actually acknowledges that she's slowly changing in her supports with Jakob. Here's the quote, "I'm doing the same thing I've always done. Take requests and kill someone. Take orders, and kill my enemies... it's all the same, just as I've always done. But when I'm here, I feel like one day I won't be able to do that anymore. I won't be able to stay as the self I've been all this time anymore." Zero actually tries to get his daughter to stop being a thief in fear of her going through what he went, and actually shows some kindness to Mozume by pulling strings to find her hometown's treasure for her. Don't have anything for Pieri though.

That said, I'll admit that I'm stretching a bit, but we really don't get much in terms of exact details on their backstories, so some of it is up to interpretation, plus I'll admit I'm a bit biased since characters like these are entertaining to me, since they come off more emotionally engaging.

P.S. This was to both Neko and Rapier, but I was in the middle of writing this when Rapier posted their latest comment, but it didn't show up for me, though the the guy who quoted you did. SF probably could use a bit of rewriting for it's code. But to address you comparison, Asura was older when he was thrust into that life, and had more maturity to deal with it than Zero had when he became a thief.

P.S.S Now That I actually took some time to look, your comment did show up but only part of it did. Did you edited it? If not, something buggy is going on.

Edited February 4, 2016 by RedRob

[CyborgZeta]

I didn't like the plots in any of the routes in Fates. Somehow, Fates managed to have worse writing than Awakening.

[nordopolica]

I didn't like the plots in any of the routes in Fates. Somehow, Fates managed to have worse writing than Awakening.

It's probably because Awakening's is bad because of what it doesn't do and Fates' is bad because of what it does do. When it's the former, it's easier to fill in the details and make it better but you can't really work around the terrible story elements in Fates without completely rewriting/reworking it.

[Emperor Hardin]

Yes, but was the original Garon as evil as the melted wax monster? I haven't finished playing Conquest (I'm on chapter 22). I don't mind spoilers anymore for Conquest and Birthright, so long as I'm not spoiled about IK.

According to the supports with Gunther, yes he was always pretty evil.

[nordopolica]

According to the supports with Gunther, yes he was always pretty evil.

I'm pretty sure in Kamui's childhood and even by the time they were kidnapped Garon was already slime dad.

[Rapier]

It's probably because Awakening's is bad because of what it doesn't do and Fates' is bad because of what it does do. When it's the former, it's easier to fill in the details and make it better but you can't really work around the terrible story elements in Fates without completely rewriting/reworking it.

I think both games do things badly, and that's their main issue. For example, Awakening could've been a much better game if, for example, it explored the grudge that Plegia developped for Ylisse, and its bad past being ruled by a King that persecuted many Grimleal, thus showing the bad side of the suetopia that is Ylisse. Fates could've done the same with Hoshido and Nohr, exploring them in a way that has been mentioned countless times by posters of this subforum. The problem with both games is the execution of the plot and the depth of the character and world building, imo, and not the ideas that they used. Granted, Awakening could've done much more and feels incomplete, which is something that Fates doesn't suffer from, as you said.

P.S.S Now That I actually took some time to look, your comment did show up but only part of it did. Did you edited it? If not, something buggy is going on.

I think the quote part was edited, but I'm not sure. I remember I edited, but I don't remember if it was just to include the Asura part. Tell me about having a horrible memory...

Anyway, good points. I'll look at them more attentiously when I'm not so drowsy.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Rapier

[PuffPuff]

Nope.

Because do not want to live under a Catholics roof with strangers when wanting to stick with the people who have been with Corrin all his/her life and that Ryoma is too forceful in the cutscene. (Ch6's decision)

Nohr=My family (Defending within the dark kingdom to keep Hoshido at bay in secret)

Hoshido=Strangers. I'll pass. (Defending for Hoshido)

Revelations=Too sweet (Finding out who's pulling the strings going on your own path)

Edited February 4, 2016 by PuffPuff

[Ebony]

Nope.

Because do not want to live under a Catholics roof with strangers when wanting to stick with the people who have been with Corrin all his/her life and that Ryoma is too forceful in the cutscene. (Ch6's decision)

Nohr=My family (Defending within the dark kingdom to keep Hoshido at bay in secret)

Hoshido=Strangers. I'll pass. (Defending for Hoshido)

Revelations=Too sweet (Finding out who's pulling the strings going on your own path)

...

what the hell does catholicism have to do with anything?

[PuffPuff]

...

what the hell does catholicism have to do with anything?

None.

Anyone would be scared to death to go with people they don't know. Haven't you've forgotten that it is war. People get formal all the time since betrayal is extremely common upon it. If these strangers trick you later, you've just paid the ultimate price of regretting your decision. I'd rather have Corrin stick with his/her brethren who are like brothers and sisters to him/her as well as me. Sure. This is spitting on Queeny's grave, but...it is war and we have to be cautious every step of the way!

[Ebony]

None.

Anyone would be scared to death to go with people they don't know. Haven't you've forgotten that it is war. People get formal all the time since betrayal is extremely common upon it. If these strangers trick you later, you've just paid the ultimate price of regretting your decision. I'd rather have Corrin stick with his/her brethren who are like brothers and sisters to him/her as well as me. Sure. This is spitting on Queeny's grave, but...it is war and we have to be cautious every step of the way!

Except Corrin did grow up for a time with the Hoshidan siblings and had their memories erased, along with being backstabbed already beforehand by Garon due to a suicidal mission. The Hoshidan siblings could have betrayed you, but they didn't. Garon did. I may care for siblings, but Garon lied to Corrin, basically tortured them as a kid, wiped their memories, and then tried to kill them off. That doesn't inspire loyalty in me.

[Sunwoo]

Ebony, you might be better off just ignoring PuffPuff/Ayanami.

In my opinion, all three paths are pretty sucky. But I liked Nohr's story the least of the three so it tends to catch most of my ire. That said, it's amazing that the developers managed to fuck up on not one, not two, but all three paths.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Sunwoo