Possible WiFi Battle Mini Tournaments on the Forum?

[CaitlynMellark]

LIke I said, dont know much about Fates

Yeah, there is no Lunatic+, just telling you

I don't know what you get for beating Lunatic

[Jariu]

Actually, there was a topic on the matter of rulesets and all that some months ago.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=56799

Although as Warp has shown us a ''DLC skills are forbiden/restricted'' clause is needed, although Awakening was already pretty bad before Warp was a thing truth being told imo.

[Torchick11]

Honestly I would only ban Warp and copycat. I would possibly restrict certain tournaments like: Nohr only tournament, Hoshido only tournament, Revelation only tournament.

The only problem I can see is the game being regionlocked on who you can fight. So JPN users may not be able to fight NA users. (though if someone could test this in a fhew days... I wouldn't mind fighting someone~).

[Orblet]

Honestly I would only ban Warp and copycat. I would possibly restrict certain tournaments like: Nohr only tournament, Hoshido only tournament, Revelation only tournament.

The only problem I can see is the game being regionlocked on who you can fight. So JPN users may not be able to fight NA users. (though if someone could test this in a fhew days... I wouldn't mind fighting someone~).

Yeah maybe we should go ahead and plan a teat tournament, like the first weekend some of us could just see what it is like and then tell everyone else what we can do with it

[CaitlynMellark]

If there is a test tournament, I volunteer to help out in the testing.

[Nishiki]

Ooh, test tournament? Sign me up for that if it happens! I'll probably dedicate a ton of my time to playing it the first weekend anyway, so that would be interesting!

[Torchick11]

I may or may not do a test tournament but first we need to test if NA can connect to JPN users.

[ladyfoster]

From that past forum linked on here I like the Odin's Sphere rule set, which notably, allows one copycat puppet skill per team. I feel like copycat could have some interesting uses so allowing only one unit to have it allows those uses without making your entire team broken. It also allows for one use of boots on a team.

As for the idea of splitting things up into tiers like decent stats, above average, and mostly maxed/normal, hard, lunatic I think that could work if a way to organize it can be arranged. Organizing it could be done through entry forums maybe? Like by taking inspiration from the Pokemon VCG tournaments, even though the pvp mode is 5v5 you can enter 10 units (the size of a streetpass team, right?) which you can switch the use of from match to match. To try and convey what I mean by entry forums for character I'll use my partway through lunatic mode Donnel and Lissa as an example:

[spoiler=Entry]

[spoiler=Unit 1]

Donnel:

Class - Hero

Stats -

HP: 77

Str: 43 (max)

Mag: 17

Skill: 45 (max)

Spd: 41 (max)

Lck: 48 (max)

Def: 41 (max)

Res: 30

Mov: 6

Skills -

1. Armsthrift

2. Sol

3. Axebreaker

4. Counter

5. Aptitude (will be swapped out for Patience)

[spoiler=Unit 2]

Lissa:

Class - Falcon Knight

Stats -

HP: 68

Str: 30

Mag: 36

Skill: 37

Spd: 44 + 2 (max)

Lck: 44

Def: 20

Res: 31

Mov: 8

Skills -

1. Miracle

2. Speed +2

3. Relief

4. Rally Movement

5. Galeforce

So based off those two Donnel would be either above average or max, while Lissa would probably be decent or above average. It depends on what's decided to count as what. What I did with Donnel's Aptitude is what would be done for a unit with copycat so they have a skill they could switch to if another is using copycat instead of them. I mean, I think my format allows it to be as little as based off the honor system as possible while still allowing a bit of mystery as to what a person may choose for a match. Maybe items should be included for what's needed in an entry, but I dunno. I'm just throwing a bit of ideas out there because I'd be very interested in tournaments.

[SaltyBucket]

If there is a test tournament, I volunteer to help out in the testing.

I will help also if it dont work we could just go ahead and start doing tourneys, i wanted the EU version to be realeased before we started doing tournatments so they would not miss out on the fun. But if its region locked it would not matter.

[Orblet]

From that past forum linked on here I like the Odin's Sphere rule set, which notably, allows one copycat puppet skill per team. I feel like copycat could have some interesting uses so allowing only one unit to have it allows those uses without making your entire team broken. It also allows for one use of boots on a team.

As for the idea of splitting things up into tiers like decent stats, above average, and mostly maxed/normal, hard, lunatic I think that could work if a way to organize it can be arranged. Organizing it could be done through entry forums maybe? Like by taking inspiration from the Pokemon VCG tournaments, even though the pvp mode is 5v5 you can enter 10 units (the size of a streetpass team, right?) which you can switch the use of from match to match. To try and convey what I mean by entry forums for character I'll use my partway through lunatic mode Donnel and Lissa as an example:

OK this sounds good, but for the tiers maybe we could do something like finished game tier (Mainly for Nohr teams), max stats tier, OP team (as in all the best characters and skills), No grinding tier for Hoshido, and so on and so forth. Maybe we could even have themed tourneys at some point, like a male/female units only or no magic users, just an idea of one or two. As for the switching in and out that also sounds really good and like it could make things a lot about strategy and looking at your opponent's set, and maybe we could add other things like that as we go along.

[DLNarshen]

Not really a fan of any kind of complex rule set involving things such as "only two units with x skill on a team", or "no forges above y level". I'm open to experimentation, but ultimately in a game that isn't going to have a large player pool we should strive for simplicity.

One rule set I think is worth considering is "no class skills", with no other rules besides that. I feel that removing only the DLC skills doesn't do much to solve any of the game's perceived problems, such as complete lack of balance between characters and classes and hyper-offense being the only viable play style, among other things. In an environment with no class skills, characters have to rely purely on their personal skills and traits. While these are important in vanilla play (turns some characters broken in fact), in most cases they matter far less than optimized skill sets slapped on the units with the highest caps. Most of the luck elements through skills would be gone; nobody gets cheaped out by Miracle or Lethality shenanigans. In theory (I have not gotten a chance to actually to play a "no class skills" game yet), such a rule could open up for more diversity in the characters people use, as well as hopefully playstyles. It would be interesting to see if a defensive style could work in such a metagame.

It's not perfect by any means, and will likely cause its own set of issues (most of the above is just theory, after all), but I think it's worth trying out as a simple, easy to understand alternative to the vanilla game.

[Orblet]

Not really a fan of any kind of complex rule set involving things such as "only two units with x skill on a team", or "no forges above y level". I'm open to experimentation, but ultimately in a game that isn't going to have a large player pool we should strive for simplicity.

One rule set I think is worth considering is "no class skills", with no other rules besides that. I feel that removing only the DLC skills doesn't do much to solve any of the game's perceived problems, such as complete lack of balance between characters and classes and hyper-offense being the only viable play style, among other things. In an environment with no class skills, characters have to rely purely on their personal skills and traits. While these are important in vanilla play (turns some characters broken in fact), in most cases they matter far less than optimized skill sets slapped on the units with the highest caps. Most of the luck elements through skills would be gone; nobody gets cheaped out by Miracle or Lethality shenanigans. In theory (I have not gotten a chance to actually to play a "no class skills" game yet), such a rule could open up for more diversity in the characters people use, as well as hopefully playstyles. It would be interesting to see if a defensive style could work in such a metagame.

It's not perfect by any means, and will likely cause its own set of issues (most of the above is just theory, after all), but I think it's worth trying out as a simple, easy to understand alternative to the vanilla game.

Wow, that is actually the best idea I have heard thous far, it is simple and solves a lot of the problems that would be had. Since all the classes are made with mostly balanced caps the "no skills" would be a very good idea. I mean we could still have more specific tourneys because drafting is also a pretty complex process in this community but that has like 4-5 players per draft so we can do both but yeah your idea is a really good one because there are skills that negates doubles and other stuff like that would ruin experimentation which is what I like most about what Awakening did.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Wow, that is actually the best idea I have heard thous far, it is simple and solves a lot of the problems that would be had. Since all the classes are made with mostly balanced caps the "no skills" would be a very good idea. I mean we could still have more specific tourneys because drafting is also a pretty complex process in this community but that has like 4-5 players per draft so we can do both but yeah your idea is a really good one because there are skills that negates doubles and other stuff like that would ruin experimentation which is what I like most about what Awakening did.

What about personal weapons though? The 'no skills, only stats' thing kinda falls apart when Ryoma, Xander and Kamui are getting +4 to certain stats just for having a weapon in their inventory. Not to mention that even with prf weapons, Xander and Ryoma (although Ryoma suffers form this to a lesser extent) will be completely invalidated by the second-gen due to much higher stat modifiers. If you really want to use this as a tourney rule-set, pretty much every competitive team will be Kamui, a second-gen Kanna and three other children units.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Phillius

[Orblet]

What about personal weapons though? The 'no skills, only stats' thing kinda falls apart when Ryoma, Xander and Kamui are getting +4 to certain stats just for having a weapon in their inventory. Not to mention that even with prf weapons, Xander and Ryoma (although Ryoma suffers form this to a lesser extent) will be completely invalidated by the second-gen due to much higher stat modifiers. If you really want to use this as a tourney rule-set, pretty much every competitive team will be Kamui, a second-gen Kanna and three other children units.

Then we can have Kamui, one/two child(ren), and two/three adults, and no buffing weapons in a match to make fair game. I just realized something, this is something that will take a while to master the balancing of, most likely a year.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Then we can have Kamui, one/two child(ren), and two/three adults, and no buffing weapons in a match to make fair game. I just realized something, this is something that will take a while to master the balancing of, most likely a year.

So now we're limiting the team composition for generations? What about brave weapons? With no skills and thus, no Defensive Formation, the balance will shift immediately to speedy classes like Swordmaster, Lodestar, Great Lord, Master Ninja ETC so that they can get those sweet 4x hits.

[Orblet]

So now we're limiting the team composition for generations? What about brave weapons? With no skills and thus, no Defensive Formation, the balance will shift immediately to speedy classes like Swordmaster, Lodestar, Great Lord, Master Ninja ETC so that they can get those sweet 4x hits.

Like I said this is something that will take a while to sort out and make fair, honestly this is my fault for bringing all this extra stuff up and for now maybe we should just mostly focus on seeing if we can even make something like this, at first when we are still getting the hang of it we will try to set these up and groups of the weak and the strong might be made, I know this sounds cheesy but natural selection will most likely happen and the pros will go in one corner while the casual/non-efficient masters/expirementors will go to another, and that might just be how it is. Wow well I feel like I sorta went a little philosphical there, but yeah for now maybe it would be better to just see if we can accomplish something as simple as setting up a working system

[Time the Crestfallen]

Like I said this is something that will take a while to sort out and make fair, honestly this is my fault for bringing all this extra stuff up and for now maybe we should just mostly focus on seeing if we can even make something like this, at first when we are still getting the hang of it we will try to set these up and groups of the weak and the strong might be made, I know this sounds cheesy but natural selection will most likely happen and the pros will go in one corner while the casual/non-efficient masters/expirementors will go to another, and that might just be how it is. Wow well I feel like I sorta went a little philosphical there, but yeah for now maybe it would be better to just see if we can accomplish something as simple as setting up a working system

The main problem is that Fire Emblem, with the exception of Fates and I think New Mystery of the Emblem, has always been a single player game. It's probably a little early to say, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Fates PVP turned out to be less balanced than Pokemon's. No matter how many things get banned or limited, there will always be something that takes its place (albeit not as OP). Ban forge weapons and I reckon Generals would be pretty OP since it's pretty easy to get 60+ defence and res for example.

[DLNarshen]

Prf weapons fall under the blanket of "personal skills and traits". Corrin and their child are going to be polarizing units in just about any meta that we conceive. There isn't much one can do about that, nor do I think it's necessary.

In regards to generation balance, the idea is that the 1st generation units have arguably better personals and a couple have powerful Prf weapons, creating incentive to use them more and to at the very least tighten the viability gap between the 1st and 2nd generations. Whether or not such a thing would actually happen remains to be seen.

In any case I am far less concerned about character and generational diversity than I am about playstyle and elimination of luck factors.

Edited February 3, 2016 by DLNarshen

[Time the Crestfallen]

Prf weapons fall under the blanket of "personal skills and traits". Corrin and their child are going to be polarizing units in just about any meta that we conceive. There isn't much one can do about that, nor do I think it's necessary.

In regards to generation balance, the idea is that the 1st generation units have arguably better personals and a couple have powerful Prf weapons, creating incentive to use them more and to at the very least tighten the viability gap between the 1st and 2nd generations. Whether or not such a thing would actually happen remains to be seen.

That was probably the intention, but it doesn't really work that well. Even with his prf weapon, Charlotte!Siegbert is easily better than Xander. Ryoma doesn't suffer as much, but an optimised Shinonome will still be better. From an optimisers standpoint, the only First-Gens worth using are Kamui (because the Omega Yato really is that broken) and Azura (because Sing is insanely useful, especially when combined with Warp and Special Song). Hell, even most of the personal skills don't tend to matter in PVP and let's not forget Kisaragi, who gets +4 Spd and +8 Lck from waiting a turn, which is easily one of the best Prf skills in the game).

Edited February 3, 2016 by Phillius

[Leif]

That was probably the intention, but it doesn't really work that well. Even with his prf weapon, Charlotte!Siegbert is easily better than Xander. Ryoma doesn't suffer as much, but an optimised Shinonome will still be better. From an optimisers standpoint, the only First-Gens worth using are Kamui (because the Omega Yato really is that broken) and Azura (because Sing is insanely useful, especially when combined with Warp and Special Song). Hell, even most of the personal skills don't tend to matter in PVP and let's not forget Kisaragi, who gets +4 Spd and +8 Lck from waiting a turn, which is easily one of the best Prf skills in the game).

Kisaragi's Personal skill is only beneficial during enemy phase. It makes him a defensive unit of sorts. Fates is all about player phase, so his skill isn't as useful as you'd think. I'd argue that Charlotte, Odin, Ophelia, and Midoriko have the best skills for PvP since they give free bonuses without meeting some situational condition. Kisaragi's isn't hard to activate, but if it worked during player phase, THEN it would be an amazing skill.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Leif

[Time the Crestfallen]

I also meant to add this video to the topic. I found it amusing (albeit more fitting for My Castle battles than possible tournaments).

[Tolvir]

I love the idea. Sounds like it would be pretty fun to do. I think we would have to give it a good week or 2 after the release though so that everyone can get to a certain point.

[shadowofchaos]

My problem and probably a few members' issue would be to confirm if region locking for online play exists or not.

[Tharne]

My problem and probably a few members' issue would be to confirm if region locking for online play exists or not.

Region Locking online play is maybe the most stupid thing they could do. I hope they're not like that.

[Torchick11]

My problem and probably a few members' issue would be to confirm if region locking for online play exists or not.

Might be like tri-force heroes, might not.