VincentASM Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 (edited) I am not pointing fault at anyone, whether it be an individual or one side, but lately the situation with debating in the FE boards has gotten quite out of hand. In the most extreme, there has been flaming and semi-flaming. Otherwise, people are becoming overly aggressive. To be honest, initially, I've attempted to ignore the situation. For one, I am a pretty busy/lazy/whatever person. Secondly, because I know how messy debates can become. However, people on both sides of the debates are becoming increasingly unhappy, so I can no longer ignore the issue. Temporary resolve There will be a new, and for now, unwritten rule. Discussions on the concept of debating and/or debating standards are prohibited, except for in this topic. Anyone seen breaking this rule, from now, will receive 10% Warn by me. 24 hours from now, new rule-breakers will receive 30% Warn instead. Future resolve That is all I can do for now. The rest, I want to hear other's thoughts on the matter. Maybe these are some questions to think about: What went wrong? Why did it go wrong? What do you think about the concept of FE debating? What do you think when you see FE debating? What is Serenes Forest? Edited October 5, 2008 by VincentASM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metal Rabbit Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 What I wanna know is how many of you master debators is from Gfaqs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral "Bull" Halsey Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 (edited) Just trying to understand the aspect of this new rules here: Simply put we can still have debates in Fire Emblem General no? Edited October 5, 2008 by Gulcasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentASM Posted October 5, 2008 Author Share Posted October 5, 2008 Just trying to understand the aspect of this new rules here: Simply put we can still have debates in Fire Emblem General no? Yes, you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tino Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 Instead of just thinking about those questions, am I allowed to post my answers to them here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentASM Posted October 5, 2008 Author Share Posted October 5, 2008 Instead of just thinking about those questions, am I allowed to post my answers to them here? I kind of implied you could, so yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tino Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 Please don't flame me on anything I say, because this is in no way meant offensively towards anybody on the forums, and these are all answers from my point of view. I'll try to keep my answers as short as I can. First of all... What I wanna know is how many of you master debators is from Gfaqs. I used to go there 9~12 months ago but barely go there anymore. I post there from time to time, but that's it. You can probably think about >5 posts a week or so. Possibly even less. But I don't go there to debate, at least. I can't remember the first FE forum I joined, but it was either Fire Emblem Fusion or Fire Emblem Universe. The forums I frequent at the moment are FEUnivers, FEFusion, FEEmpire, FEShrine and Serenes Forest. What went wrong? Why did it go wrong? Debaters came here. At least, most members at Serenes Forest think that is wrong. It seems many people here don't like debates, and therefore they try to get rid of them, but because most people don't seem to be able to discuss things with us (the debaters) very well and they seem to "lose" every discussion, they start flaming us. During any debates that were held here, such as the Titania topic, arguments were thrown against us with personal experience. We said that according to the debating standards, that means nothing, and that debating should follow the general debating standards and structure, because it makes everything better organized and makes you seem more mature. Obviously, there are way more reasons the people made the whole FE Debating Structure back in the days, but those are just a couple of them. And because the other members couldn't come up with good arguments aside of personal experience or their own playing styles or things like that, and they couldn't win without ignoring the standards, they started flaming us and didn't even bother trying to understand us and what we do and how we do that. So the other members got pissed off and then started they didn't want debating on Serenes Forest, even though they have been debating before we arrived here. That's what happened in short, and there's probably even something I forgot. What do you think about the concept of FE debating? If you're talking about FE debating, then it can be many things. Usually though, FE debates are discussions between two or more persons about which of the two discussed characters is better. Debates are also held according to the general debating rules, standards and structure. What do you think when you see FE debating? Not only do I enjoy reading good debates, I also enjoy debating a lot. It gives me a better understanding of the characters, game mechanics, supports and everything else. It gives me pretty much a better understanding of the entire game. For me, debating and reading debates is just like, for example, playing hockey; a hobby. What is Serenes Forest? A Fire Emblem community where every member should be able to feel at home, no matter what he or she likes and dislikes, and no matter what he or she does and does not (as long as he/she follows the general SF rules). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 What went wrong? Simply put, people started debating in what was supposed to be opinionated threads. Non-debaters didn't like that. Why did it go wrong? We generally state our opinion, and someone comes out and tells us its wrong on account of us "claiming something as such" or whatever their terminology was. Then they claim that they are right and can't be wrong because they can debate and we can't, even though we're not asking for debates, we're only stating what is in our state of mind. What do you think about the concept of FE debating? If people want to do it, fine. I think it's a waste of time, but that's just me. What do you think when you see FE debating? It used to be "Get me the hell out of here." It's recently become "Shut the hell up." What is Serenes Forest? It is a place where people speak freely of their own mind and are accepted for it. It is a place where people go crazy on occasion and talk about things other than Fire Emblem often. It is a place where you don't have to be great or smart to fit in because help is offered. It is not a debate forum. It never was and it doesn't need to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonri Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 I really have no problem with debating here. It's rather fun actually. In a single-player game like FE, with many characters, it's obvious that some are better than others. Therefore we should be able to find out which characters are better. A sytem of rules and considerations was devised to allow us to distinguish the good characters from the fail ones. This is the basic concept of debating. My problem is that the rules themselves are biased. They put to much emphasis on certain places and take attach to little to more important aspects. Therefore the base on which debates is held are suspect, leading to debators saying things that just aren't true. This leads to the huge contention we see between debators and non-debators, who don't follow these flawed rules. We must have a system that is fair, and upon which everyone agrees, to truly find the best characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 (edited) What went wrong? People's opinions became "wrong". How can an opinion be wrong? Debaters appeared, and began accusing other members that what they say is wrong. Before, a person would say that they like one unit more than another because they're better, and nobody would bat an eyelid. Debaters however, see this as a challenge of sorts, and began engaging members in debate, even when the other members didn't want it, and telling us that what we believe is right is actually wrong. Myself, and many others, don't care, because it's our opinion at the end of the day. Why did it go wrong? "Wild Debater appeared!" "Wild Debater used Flame Opinion!" Debaters need to realise that almost everything everyone says in topics, especially where topics ask for a favourite unit, is nothing more than opinion. We don't give a crap about "facts". If we want facts, we'll bloody well ask for them... What do you think about the concept of FE debating? As with the Nino topic a long time ago, it's alright. But when almost every "Who's your favourite?" starts turning into a debate because someone said "This unit's better than that unit", that's what pisses me off. The topic itself states "Who's your favourite?" So saying "This unit's better than that unit" should be just accepted, because it's someone's opinion, because it's in a topic where opinions are stated. We don't want someone telling us we're wrong, because we just don't care... What do you think when you see FE debating? I enjoy reading it, but when I'm involved myself, being accused that my opinion's wrong, that really gets to me... If I'm going to be challenged every time I give my opinion and say that one unit is better than another in a topic that clearly asks for opinion, and then having "facts" shoved at me left, right and centre, I'm probably going to get the fuck out of here, because I don't want my opinions being challenged every fucking time. What is Serenes Forest? What Fox said. But, I believe we can have debates, so long as they're between members in a specific debate thread... Edited October 5, 2008 by Raven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ether Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 I agree with Raven.Debating is fun to read if you want to read it.People need to stop spouting the same thing over and over.PEMN,for example,is nearly necessary in a debate, [hint]but when debaters start saying this in a topic that was not designed to be a debate it pisses people off.[/hint] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordsalmon Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 (edited) What went wrong? Most people would probably say something like "Swordsalmon came and ruined everything". What went wrong is that people are taking everything too seriously, and being intolerant of newer and more logical ideas. Why did it go wrong? I came, I saw, I conquered. Really though, everyone takes their views far too seriously. What do you think about the concept of FE debating? I believe debating is a wonderful hobby. It takes away bias and favouritism, allowing the debator to make a choice based off logic. It's a fun way to spend time, requiring looking at the whole picture and every choice in Fire Emblem. What do you think when you see FE debating? A fun time that improves both sides' knowledge of Fire Emblem. Debaters need to realise that almost everything everyone says in topics, especially where topics ask for a favourite unit, is nothing more than opinion. We don't give a crap about "facts". If we want facts, we'll bloody well ask for them... Except if you state that a character is better than another character, we'll easily come and try to arguefor the other character. There's a difference between favourite characters and good characters. Edited October 5, 2008 by Swordsalmon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uguu Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 What went wrong? People started debates in threads that weren't supposed to be debates. Why did it go wrong? Because people started debates in threads that weren't supposed to be debates. What do you think about the concept of FE debating? Fine as long as you keep it out of threads not made for debates. What do you think when you see FE debating? Either 'Get this out of this thread' or 'Wow, they actually managed to make a thread for it' What is Serenes Forest? My favorite forum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tino Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 Are we supposed to react to all statements here? Just asking before I do something I'm not supposed to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_____ Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 I'd just like to say that a lot of the threads that have been debated in were marked "BEST _____!". They were not "Your opinion on _____!" Thus, there's no reason why we shouldn't be allowed to debate in those "Best!" threads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ϲharlie Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 What went wrong? The community became divided into two cliques: debaters and non-debaters. This polarization resulted in several minor flame wars. Why did it go wrong? People seem to have forgotten that Fire Emblem is just a game. What do you think about the concept of FE debating? I think that debating over Fire Emblem or video games in general is a waste of time. Just because you *can* argue over something does not mean you *should*. I tried to convey this point in MaSu's topic by using the bikeshed metaphor, but I was almost universally misunderstood, overlooked, or ignored. I'll try to explain why I consider debates a waste of time using the metaphor. MaSu's topic is the bikeshed and the pegasus knights are the colors we can paint it. Tana is blue, Vanessa is green. Several people decided that blue was the best color for their shed and decided to say as much. It may be possible to prove that green paint is the better choice, but ask yourself these two questions: What are they doing wrong by saying blue is the best? What do you gain from proving that green is the better color? The answer to both is nothing. What do you think when you see FE debating? That depends. I don't care if the debate is kept within its own topic (example). It's only an issue when they spill into places where they don't belong. What is Serenes Forest? One of only two Fire Emblem forums that is worth my time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 My opinion on debates notwithstanding, I'm pretty sure that despite us acting generally crappy towards them and all, Tino and Swordsalmon haven't actually personally insulted individuals here, or at least not notably or heavily. We can't say the reverse is true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canas is back Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 I am niether opposed to, or in favor of debatesm I think both sides have acted immaturely, but I think the wisest decision is to make a actual debate board, and be careful not to label something BEST when you mean FAVORITE, now this won't stop everything, but it will allow things to cool down. In other words, there is a best but people think in favorites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGV Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 (edited) My turn! Might as well get my word in here... [*]What went wrong? People used the word "fact" and challenge our own thoughts. It sorta bugged us. But they eventually said they were wrong about the "fact" part. And I forgave them for that [*]Why did it go wrong? They mistook opinion threads and thoughts for debate threads and actual statements. It happened when we said "unit a>b" when we just meant that's what we thought [*]What do you think about the concept of FE debating? Personally, I think it's a load of shit. But if people want to debate, let em do it, just not where we like to express our opinions. We like to be able to have open minds without it being challenged [*]What do you think when you see FE debating? Honestly, I don't mind when I see it. Two people striving to see who's better with stats, averages, etc. Nothing wrong there. It's just when they do it where it isn't intended or when they say something we think flat out sucks is where the problem starts [*]What is Serenes Forest? SF is this kickass place where I have more friends than IRL AND they all like Fire Emblem Seriously, you guys should check it out I did notice that the debaters weren't always debating on stuff. I guess they just saw things through debaters eyes and not our eyes and they thought that that's when they should be debating. I think a lot of it has just been a big misunderstanding Edited October 5, 2008 by CGV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metal Rabbit Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 I don't much care for the outcome of this topic. I only mod when there's an offense, and there's only one or two people who have openly done it in debates. While I find you all annoying as hell, I have no problem with debating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentASM Posted October 5, 2008 Author Share Posted October 5, 2008 Are we supposed to react to all statements here? Just asking before I do something I'm not supposed to do. You can if you want. Hopefully things don't start to get out of control after I post this statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Defeatist Elitist Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 What went wrong? Why did it go wrong? What do you think about the concept of FE debating? What do you think when you see FE debating? What is Serenes Forest? * We (debaters), joined this forum, and started trying to debate. However, we quickly came up at odds with some of the regulars here. * At first, when we joined, we where unaware that the people here had no real experience with the General Debate Structure, and Debate rules. Soon after they where explained, people began to question they way we "stated opinion as fact". Our explanation was that according to the rules, and the definitions created by the rules, that it was fact. Looking at it from a non debaters standpoint however, would make it look very much like we where stating opinion as fact. Now, we who debate generally see any statements like "X character is best", or similar to mean that someone is attempting to prove that. Thus we attempt to begin a debate. This caused several problems where topics originally not intended for debates contained such statements, and debates where initiated. * Fire Emblem debating is just like most things. Fun. Some people say it's pointless, but then again, so is playing the game. We enjoy debating. It also helps us form proper opinions on the game, gives us a greater understanding, and helps us all around. Take for example, a debate between Erk and Nino. This would generally be considered horribly one sided, by the way. In such a debate, we would compare good points of characters, and they're result, compared to the time and energy expended for their use, etc. We would eventually discover that you will, on the whole, have an easier time playing through the game with Max Ranks on HHM if you use Nino. Now, what does this tell us? It can tell us many things. We understand the game better. As for the Bike shed metaphor, it is not accurate. Now, for a bike shed, the color will make basically no difference in the end. It will have no affect on anything, even things like the ease of use of the shed. When we debate Fire Emblem, there IS a difference between characters, beyond personal preference. Their is a solid, mechanical backing. * Sex. * Serene's Forest is a site, and a forum. The site itself offers one of the most comprehensive collections of Fire Emblem Game Mechanics and similar. The forum is of course, a forum. It's a place for discussion. Nowhere does it say that ANY type of discussion is required, or prohibited, save that discussion of a certain game go in its correct topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metal Rabbit Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 lol, jumping without looking is something i'd do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canas is back Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 (edited) EDIT: I retract this remark as being silly and out of place, though it was funny so I think I'll sig it Edited October 6, 2008 by Shigeru Miyamoto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serene Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 My lazyness is acting up so I won't be quoteing 1. Because some peopel thought opinion topics were full fledged debates 2. To hell if I know 3. Personally I think it's like the teir debates at Smashboards, pointless, and needless, but this case it's even more pointless 4. Someone's dirty Laundry (seriously) 5. What is Serenes Forest? IT IS SPARTAAAAAAAAAA Seriously Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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