Does anyone else have a hard time choosing Nohr (conquest)?

[solrocknroll]

I don't think Nohr and Hoshido being literally black and white is a bad thing. I'm playing both and I find the complete differences to be amusing. It would be worse if it turned out they weren't that different after all. Gray morality is boring and I'd prefer it to be clear cut.

You and I side with Nohr probably for the characters or gameplay. That's the point. It's an SRPG, not a morality test and idk why people have difficulty seeing that. I'm also having trouble seeing people forsake one version for the other when both perspectives are unique. It makes me laugh seeing people who've solely played Conquest bash Ryoma or Takumi or people who have solely played Birthright bash Xander or Camilla. I mean, feel free to dislike them, but at least see the story from both sides before you make a decision.

It's why I really don't like Revelation. It adds a wrench into the two sides tbh.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Ms. Andrews

[PrincessAlyson]

I bought both versions and started playing Conquest first...and then switched to Birthright. As much as I like the Nohr characters, I was guilt tripped into siding with Hoshido (plus I like the Hoshido characters just as much as the Nohr. Don't have a fav side in regards to characters really). I will play Conquest eventually and not for the story (because we all know it's the weakest route in terms of story). I'll play Conquest for the characters. Leo FTW. I will also buy Revelation when it comes out because it's supposedly the ''correct/golden'' route and you get most of the characters, rendering the ''pick a game, get certain people only'' thing moot. Really, I just want the whole experience, which is why I'm getting all three paths.

Edited February 21, 2016 by PrincessAlyson

[Katryn]

A couple more thoughts after reading the latest responses:

1. While it is understandable that we automatically try to justify or vilify characters for not fitting within the construct of our own morality, I'm surprised no one has paused to suggest that maybe the morality within the cultures presented in the games is not a pure mirror of our own. Are Hinoka, Ryoma and Sakura's reaction to Corrin reappearing a more normal reaction for their world, perhaps because hostages are taken regularly and people hope to get them back? Does Hoshido, Nohr, or both follow the 'don't shoot the doctors' rule that is normal in our world, or are they a parody of mmo pvp tactics where "kill the healers!" is priority one? None of this is going to make what they do okay; nor should it. But it is an interesting consideration. (That said I'm really interested in seeing the context of Takumi shooting Elise so I can form my own opinion, but that won't be happening for a while.)

2. More thoughts on the Garon situation. If you have any history with Final Fantasy II (US) or IV (JP) we may be able to have an interesting discussion--it's a large part of why I can overlook many flaws I'm noticing. As long as you know the truth about Garon, this will be safe to read.

Garon is essentially FFII / IV's water fiend, Kainazzo. Kainazzo is a giant turtle monster that murdered the true King Baron and who has taken the king's place. Our FE buddy Garon is a slime monster who has replaced the true King Garon of Nohr--who apparently wasn't necessarily a stand-up guy, but I'm gonna assume he didn't want to destroy his own country.

In FFII / IV, the king's adopted son, Cecil, does not like a mission Kainazzo (note: Cecil has no idea at this point that King Baron is a fake) sends him on and questions him about its necessity, resulting in Cecil being stripped of his post as commander of Baron's airfleet, the Red Wings. He is then sent to deliver a "package" to the village of Mist. (*cough* Glangari / Corrin's big purple sword of doom *cough*)

Before I go on I'd like to point out two things FFIV got right that FE14 did not: (1) Cecil knew the true king before his personality change / murder / possession happened (2) Cecil successfully carried out the initial mission he was sent on, kept a brave / loyal / neutral face in front of his men--who were doubting the mission, and only expressed his concerns when he was speaking with the king and his advisor. Corrin, on the other hand, has no comprehension of Garon's behavior or how to react in front of him and is (at this point) driven by naive idealism rather than regret over something he / she has done. (And again I ask--how did Garon *ever* permit that to happen?)

When Cecil and his friend Cain reach the end of a cave they need to go through to reach Mist, they fight a creature called the Mist Dragon. When they reach the actual village of Mist, the "package" they carry explodes and lights the entire village on fire killing the vast majority of its inhabitants.These events tie well to the death of Mikoto / the people of Hoshido who are caught in the blast from Corrin's sword. We'll see in a minute how the Mist Dragon ties in, too.

The one known survivor is a little girl named Rydia--a girl whose mother has just died because "her mom's dragon fell, so her mom did too". Cain tells Cecil that King Baron wants the Callers, those who wield the power to summon monsters, wiped out. He feels that they should kill Rydia, too. Cecil objects to the is the two plan to grab Rydia and take her somewhere safe, but she freaks out after learning that they are responsible for her mother's death. She summons a creature called Titan which causes a massive earthquake. Cecil (and Rydia) pass out during this and he wakes up sometime later to find she is still there but that Kain has somehow gone missing. Wracked with guilt over what has happened, Cecil carries Rydia to a nearby village and seeks treatment for her at an Inn. He also fights soldiers that have been sent to execute her, completely branding himself as a traitor to Baron in the process.

So we can see that the loss of Rydia's mother plays in a similar vein to Mikoto's sacrifice in being the catalyst that causes Corrin to see that something is definitely wrong in Nohr. Further, we can also see how the Hoshido / Birthright path plays in several interesting ways as a parallel to Cecil's path in IV seeking redemption for what happened because of his / her (Corrin's) actions and trying to make things right. I also like the fact that we get characters like Jakob, Silas and Felicia since they kinda match for characters like Kain, Rosa and Cid who are good people currently living in a bad (corrupted) kingdom.

Final Fantasy IV is my favorite game of all time and in Golbez (let's not talk about Zemerus and FF's whole silly 'final boss tacked on at the end' silliness--it is weak here and I'm gonna guess it's weak in its FE counterpart in Revelation) it presents a fascinating villain whom it turns out is (big surprise with the parallel I'm making...) your brother. As a kid one of the things I use to make up were storylines where the two could have somehow found a way to work together. So when I heard about Conquest, started researching all the info I could on it and saw Xander and Leo (who has the whole darkly dressed mage thing totally down)... Yeah, I was hyped. *laughs*

I don't necessarily feel that Nohr is going to be so broken that I cannot like it, but based on the angle I'm coming at this from I will admit to being a bit sad / disappointed / frustrated that great opportunities were lost in developing both Garon and Corrin. You know you're doing it wrong when there were characters (IMO) doing it better in 1991.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Katryn

[saisymbolic]

A couple more thoughts after reading the latest responses:

1. While it is understandable that we automatically try to justify or vilify characters for not fitting within the construct of our own morality, I'm surprised no one has paused to suggest that maybe the morality within the cultures presented in the games is not a pure mirror of our own. Are Hinoka, Ryoma and Sakura's reaction to Corrin reappearing a more normal reaction for their world, perhaps because hostages are taken regularly and people hope to get them back? Does Hoshido, Nohr, or both follow the 'don't shoot the doctors' rule that is normal in our world, or are they a parody of mmo pvp tactics where "kill the healers!" is priority one? None of this is going to make what they do okay; nor should it. But it is an interesting consideration. (That said I'm really interested in seeing the context of Takumi shooting Elise so I can form my own opinion, but that won't be happening for a while.)

2. More thoughts on the Garon situation. If you have any history with Final Fantasy II (US) or IV (JP) we may be able to have an interesting discussion--it's a large part of why I can overlook many flaws I'm noticing. As long as you know the truth about Garon, this will be safe to read.

Garon is essentially FFII / IV's water fiend, Kainazzo. Kainazzo is a giant turtle monster that murdered the true King Baron and who has taken the king's place. Our FE buddy Garon is a slime monster who has replaced the true King Garon of Nohr--who apparently wasn't necessarily a stand-up guy, but I'm gonna assume he didn't want to destroy his own country.

In FFII / IV, the king's adopted son, Cecil, does not like a mission Kainazzo (note: Cecil has no idea at this point that King Baron is a fake) sends him on and questions him about its necessity, resulting in Cecil being stripped of his post as commander of Baron's airfleet, the Red Wings. He is then sent to deliver a "package" to the village of Mist. (*cough* Glangari / Corrin's big purple sword of doom *cough*)

Before I go on I'd like to point out two things FFIV got right that FE14 did not: (1) Cecil knew the true king before his personality change / murder / possession happened (2) Cecil successfully carried out the initial mission he was sent on, kept a brave / loyal / neutral face in front of his men--who were doubting the mission, and only expressed his concerns when he was speaking with the king and his advisor. Corrin, on the other hand, has no comprehension of Garon's behavior or how to react in front of him and is (at this point) driven by naive idealism rather than regret over something he / she has done. (And again I ask--how did Garon *ever* permit that to happen?)

When Cecil and his friend Cain reach the end of a cave they need to go through to reach Mist, they fight a creature called the Mist Dragon. When they reach the actual village of Mist, the "package" they carry explodes and lights the entire village on fire killing the vast majority of its inhabitants.These events tie well to the death of Mikoto / the people of Hoshido who are caught in the blast from Corrin's sword. We'll see in a minute how the Mist Dragon ties in, too.

The one known survivor is a little girl named Rydia--a girl whose mother has just died because "her mom's dragon fell, so her mom did too". Cain tells Cecil that King Baron wants the Callers, those who wield the power to summon monsters, wiped out. He feels that they should kill Rydia, too. Cecil objects to the is the two plan to grab Rydia and take her somewhere safe, but she freaks out after learning that they are responsible for her mother's death. She summons a creature called Titan which causes a massive earthquake. Cecil (and Rydia) pass out during this and he wakes up sometime later to find she is still there but that Kain has somehow gone missing. Wracked with guilt over what has happened, Cecil carries Rydia to a nearby village and seeks treatment for her at an Inn. He also fights soldiers that have been sent to execute her, completely branding himself as a traitor to Baron in the process.

So we can see that the loss of Rydia's mother plays in a similar vein to Mikoto's sacrifice in being the catalyst that causes Corrin to see that something is definitely wrong in Nohr. Further, we can also see how the Hoshido / Birthright path plays in several interesting ways as a parallel to Cecil's path in IV seeking redemption for what happened because of his / her (Corrin's) actions and trying to make things right. I also like the fact that we get characters like Jakob, Silas and Felicia since they kinda match for characters like Kain, Rosa and Cid who are good people currently living in a bad (corrupted) kingdom.

Final Fantasy IV is my favorite game of all time and in Golbez (let's not talk about Zemerus and FF's whole silly 'final boss tacked on at the end' silliness--it is weak here and I'm gonna guess it's weak in its FE counterpart in Revelation) it presents a fascinating villain whom it turns out is (big surprise with the parallel I'm making...) your brother. As a kid one of the things I use to make up were storylines where the two could have somehow found a way to work together. So when I heard about Conquest, started researching all the info I could on it and saw Xander and Leo (who has the whole darkly dressed mage thing totally down)... Yeah, I was hyped. *laughs*

I don't necessarily feel that Nohr is going to be so broken that I cannot like it, but based on the angle I'm coming at this from I will admit to being a bit sad / disappointed / frustrated that great opportunities were lost in developing both Garon and Corrin. You know you're doing it wrong when there were characters (IMO) doing it better in 1991.

That was a very interesting read. Thank you for that. The parallels are uncannily similar and, now that you've mentioned it, the light/darkness theme of Fates resemble that of Cecil's struggle between the darkness and light.

Too bad, my only knowledge of the earlier games comes from Dissidia and sporadic reads on the wikia.

[NekoKnight]

A couple more thoughts after reading the latest responses:

1. While it is understandable that we automatically try to justify or vilify characters for not fitting within the construct of our own morality, I'm surprised no one has paused to suggest that maybe the morality within the cultures presented in the games is not a pure mirror of our own. Are Hinoka, Ryoma and Sakura's reaction to Corrin reappearing a more normal reaction for their world, perhaps because hostages are taken regularly and people hope to get them back? Does Hoshido, Nohr, or both follow the 'don't shoot the doctors' rule that is normal in our world, or are they a parody of mmo pvp tactics where "kill the healers!" is priority one? None of this is going to make what they do okay; nor should it. But it is an interesting consideration. (That said I'm really interested in seeing the context of Takumi shooting Elise so I can form my own opinion, but that won't be happening for a while.)

2. More thoughts on the Garon situation. If you have any history with Final Fantasy II (US) or IV (JP) we may be able to have an interesting discussion--it's a large part of why I can overlook many flaws I'm noticing. As long as you know the truth about Garon, this will be safe to read.

Garon is essentially FFII / IV's water fiend, Kainazzo. Kainazzo is a giant turtle monster that murdered the true King Baron and who has taken the king's place. Our FE buddy Garon is a slime monster who has replaced the true King Garon of Nohr--who apparently wasn't necessarily a stand-up guy, but I'm gonna assume he didn't want to destroy his own country.

In FFII / IV, the king's adopted son, Cecil, does not like a mission Kainazzo (note: Cecil has no idea at this point that King Baron is a fake) sends him on and questions him about its necessity, resulting in Cecil being stripped of his post as commander of Baron's airfleet, the Red Wings. He is then sent to deliver a "package" to the village of Mist. (*cough* Glangari / Corrin's big purple sword of doom *cough*)

Before I go on I'd like to point out two things FFIV got right that FE14 did not: (1) Cecil knew the true king before his personality change / murder / possession happened (2) Cecil successfully carried out the initial mission he was sent on, kept a brave / loyal / neutral face in front of his men--who were doubting the mission, and only expressed his concerns when he was speaking with the king and his advisor. Corrin, on the other hand, has no comprehension of Garon's behavior or how to react in front of him and is (at this point) driven by naive idealism rather than regret over something he / she has done. (And again I ask--how did Garon *ever* permit that to happen?)

When Cecil and his friend Cain reach the end of a cave they need to go through to reach Mist, they fight a creature called the Mist Dragon. When they reach the actual village of Mist, the "package" they carry explodes and lights the entire village on fire killing the vast majority of its inhabitants.These events tie well to the death of Mikoto / the people of Hoshido who are caught in the blast from Corrin's sword. We'll see in a minute how the Mist Dragon ties in, too.

The one known survivor is a little girl named Rydia--a girl whose mother has just died because "her mom's dragon fell, so her mom did too". Cain tells Cecil that King Baron wants the Callers, those who wield the power to summon monsters, wiped out. He feels that they should kill Rydia, too. Cecil objects to the is the two plan to grab Rydia and take her somewhere safe, but she freaks out after learning that they are responsible for her mother's death. She summons a creature called Titan which causes a massive earthquake. Cecil (and Rydia) pass out during this and he wakes up sometime later to find she is still there but that Kain has somehow gone missing. Wracked with guilt over what has happened, Cecil carries Rydia to a nearby village and seeks treatment for her at an Inn. He also fights soldiers that have been sent to execute her, completely branding himself as a traitor to Baron in the process.

So we can see that the loss of Rydia's mother plays in a similar vein to Mikoto's sacrifice in being the catalyst that causes Corrin to see that something is definitely wrong in Nohr. Further, we can also see how the Hoshido / Birthright path plays in several interesting ways as a parallel to Cecil's path in IV seeking redemption for what happened because of his / her (Corrin's) actions and trying to make things right. I also like the fact that we get characters like Jakob, Silas and Felicia since they kinda match for characters like Kain, Rosa and Cid who are good people currently living in a bad (corrupted) kingdom.

Final Fantasy IV is my favorite game of all time and in Golbez (let's not talk about Zemerus and FF's whole silly 'final boss tacked on at the end' silliness--it is weak here and I'm gonna guess it's weak in its FE counterpart in Revelation) it presents a fascinating villain whom it turns out is (big surprise with the parallel I'm making...) your brother. As a kid one of the things I use to make up were storylines where the two could have somehow found a way to work together. So when I heard about Conquest, started researching all the info I could on it and saw Xander and Leo (who has the whole darkly dressed mage thing totally down)... Yeah, I was hyped. *laughs*

I don't necessarily feel that Nohr is going to be so broken that I cannot like it, but based on the angle I'm coming at this from I will admit to being a bit sad / disappointed / frustrated that great opportunities were lost in developing both Garon and Corrin. You know you're doing it wrong when there were characters (IMO) doing it better in 1991.

Nice write up. This Fates plot element sounds like it was ripped directly from FFIV.

[Sentacotus]

I think Corrin/MU is in a real lose lose situation from a design standpoint. On one you get what you have in Nohr where he seems indecisive and a bit whiny BUT if you make him out to be a brilliant character who's calculating and knows what he's doing then you get criticized for making a Mary Sue...kinda like a certain other MU from FE13...you just can't win.

[CyborgZeta]

From a narrative standpoint, I don't really care.

I have no qualms siding with the family I grew up with, and swaggering ourselves to Hoshido while blasting Stayin' Alive.

[Tsuky]

Well first off, since it seems you can't read, I said from a Nohr point of view. Not Hoshido, not Valla, but Nohr. I understand that there are more motivations behind these two from the other paths, but from what I am seeing in Nohr, Takumi is not a good person by any stretch of the imagination. Are Nohr good people? Oh hell no. There is a reason for Hoshido's anger towards them, but does that mean you need to judge each Nohrian by face value and call them all horrible? Well that isn't right either. Sure Takumi's frustration towards Corrin is understandable, but at the same time he is still trying to kill him. To be honest if allowed to in Hoshido, he would likely do the same thing, the only difference is you have Ryoma and Hinoka holding him back. As I stated in my comment, Hinoka and Sakura seem to be the only one to understand what Corrin is doing. Why haven't Ryoma and Takumi realized that he, nor any of the others in his army, have kept Hoshidan troops alive? To be honest that goes to show that they are blinded by their own emotions to see what Corrin is trying to do, which is stop Garon, not fight Hoshido.

Is Ryoma a bad person? No not at all. Once again he has very good reasons for his actions, but at the same time two wrongs don't make a right. Because Nohrian troops attacked a hospital makes it okay to attack a Nohrian hospital? Why not fight outside the hospital, or stop Corrin on his way to it. Now onto what Takumi did, his motivations for that were evil. He shot at Elise not because she was a healer, but because he was becoming annoyed by her. Does that mean I can go shoot my dog because his whining annoys me? She is a healer, and practically a child. Both which would be considered an evil act in which to both attack and kill. What Takumi did there should not be looked at in any other way than wrong. But that does not mean he is evil. Once again, I said from a Nohr point of view it seems that way, and I am not even fully through the game.

Now on the final point. Why rip my post apart when it was merely my opinion on what I think of the matter? I am clearly not through the game, and know limited information, but instead of realizing that, you decided you were going to rip my opinions apart and say I was very narrow-minded on the matter. No, I am ignorant to the full picture, not purposefully overlooking outside points of view. I literally know nothing of both Birthright and Revalation's stories, so I don't know anything about Takumi outside of what I know in Nohr. You clearly have I bias towards Hoshido, so maybe look at it from the Nohr point of view as well.

Depending on what point in the game you're at, it's understandable for you to hold this opinion, and I'm actually very interested in hearing your opinion of the story after you finish all three games. But let's just say (without going into spoilers) that Ryoma and Takumi are certainly not wrong for raging at Corrin. Essentially, the goal of getting rid of Garon is not realized in a way that is acceptable to a lot of the commenters here, which is one of the reasons we take issue with Conquest.

With the Ryoma situation, I think there's a bit of a double standard going on. Two wrongs definitely don't make a right, but people are hating on Ryoma's actions while pretty much ignoring Nohrian wrongdoings, such as the attack in Birthright Ch.7. As Sunwoo already pointed out, he is in a lose-lose situation here: don't give the medicine and get hated on by the fanbase for hurting "the precious cinnamon roll," or give the medicine and instantly lose the trust of his army. I don't think Ryoma's action was justifiable for a purely moral perspective, but he's not a saint and under those circumstances, is not obligated to care about an enemy princess. I actually liked this part of his characterization quite a bit.

In Takumi's case, it's more of him just raging because she was defending Corrin's decision. The action is definitely wrong, but it should be viewed in a similar light to how he shot Corrin before that, which less people seem to have problems about (or if Takumi had shot Camilla instead of Elise). I personally don't really buy the whole child argument in this specific case since if Nohr really didn't want a child getting hurt, then he/she shouldn't be allowed on the battlefield, or travel with a group who is involved in any sort of combat. Anyone who is willingly putting themselves in such a situation should be mentally prepared for getting attacked. And Elise is technically an adult, as stated clearly in the beginning of the game.

Overall, it just seems that the Hoshidans get called out more for their actions than the Nohrians. But why? I thought people wanted gray morality. I've even seen people suggest in other places that it's okay to trash Hoshido because it's a perfect country and can just rebuild itself. Um, what? While I don't think IS took a good approach by depicting Hoshido as such, that line of thinking is pretty messed up.

Also, adding on a bit about Xander. I have yet to play the localized version, but what I'm getting from people here is that Xander already knows that something is wrong with Garon and is actively taking actions against him behind his back? If so, then I'm just super confused about his characterization...

[Dark Sage]

Elise just shrugs off getting shot like nothing happened, which is baffling on it's own. But it's weird that people hold that greatly against Takumi when he apparently doesn't even hurt her (seriously, she loses no HP and only displays mild discomfort in the cutscene).

[jankmaster98]

I think maybe a reason for Corrin/Avatar to go running back to Nohr is the sheer information overload they're probably experiencing. They might want to go back to what's familiar, even if for a fleeting moment that a large part of them says is wrong. Nohr and it's siblings and people are what have their reality for as long as they can remember and now in a few short days these strangers have shattered it. I really there was more nuance to the character of Garon especially. In the end though I'm happy buying conquest and if I think things are crap I'll just rewrite the head canon like anybody else can do. It ain't getting a rewrite or a better story, but it helps me.

[Tolvir]

Depending on what point in the game you're at, it's understandable for you to hold this opinion, and I'm actually very interested in hearing your opinion of the story after you finish all three games. But let's just say (without going into spoilers) that Ryoma and Takumi are certainly not wrong for raging at Corrin. Essentially, the goal of getting rid of Garon is not realized in a way that is acceptable to a lot of the commenters here, which is one of the reasons we take issue with Conquest.

With the Ryoma situation, I think there's a bit of a double standard going on. Two wrongs definitely don't make a right, but people are hating on Ryoma's actions while pretty much ignoring Nohrian wrongdoings, such as the attack in Birthright Ch.7. As Sunwoo already pointed out, he is in a lose-lose situation here: don't give the medicine and get hated on by the fanbase for hurting "the precious cinnamon roll," or give the medicine and instantly lose the trust of his army. I don't think Ryoma's action was justifiable for a purely moral perspective, but he's not a saint and under those circumstances, is not obligated to care about an enemy princess. I actually liked this part of his characterization quite a bit.

In Takumi's case, it's more of him just raging because she was defending Corrin's decision. The action is definitely wrong, but it should be viewed in a similar light to how he shot Corrin before that, which less people seem to have problems about (or if Takumi had shot Camilla instead of Elise). I personally don't really buy the whole child argument in this specific case since if Nohr really didn't want a child getting hurt, then he/she shouldn't be allowed on the battlefield, or travel with a group who is involved in any sort of combat. Anyone who is willingly putting themselves in such a situation should be mentally prepared for getting attacked. And Elise is technically an adult, as stated clearly in the beginning of the game.

Overall, it just seems that the Hoshidans get called out more for their actions than the Nohrians. But why? I thought people wanted gray morality. I've even seen people suggest in other places that it's okay to trash Hoshido because it's a perfect country and can just rebuild itself. Um, what? While I don't think IS took a good approach by depicting Hoshido as such, that line of thinking is pretty messed up.

Also, adding on a bit about Xander. I have yet to play the localized version, but what I'm getting from people here is that Xander already knows that something is wrong with Garon and is actively taking actions against him behind his back? If so, then I'm just super confused about his characterization...

Yes Xander is actively working against Garon, just not in front of him. Its always behind his back like sending people to help or warning Corrin about what he is trying to do. It actually makes a lot of sense because he wouldn't want to risk himself and others being executed, but knows Garon is wrong. That and it is always best to work right under their noses where they don't expect it. Garon believes Xander is completely faithful to him, so it is allowing Xander to keep doing what he is doing.

I don't have a problem with Hoshido so much, I was just looking at it from the point of view I have at the moment. I will say that Takumi's actions are starting to make more sense now because they are hinting at the fact that he already is or is in the process of being possessed by something. So he is not himself in any way, which makes me understand him a bit more if that is the case. Azura stated that he isn't acting like himself at all, and that while he is the type to be stand offish, he isn't the type to act with outright anger and violence towards another. He also keeps talking about how much pain he is in, so I am thinking that he is being possessed or manipulated by something.

Ryoma I also understand as well, since it is more of a blinded my emotions situation. He himself isn't a bad person at all, he is just blinded by the emotions of his brother, from what he feels like, betraying him. I personally feel that they handled this situation well since Corrin isn't trying to harm his siblings from Hoshido or fight against them, he is trying to stop the war completely. He is trying to change Nohr, which would stop the constant hostilities, and lower Hoshido's casualties in the process. Sure he doesn't have complete control over the Nohr army, but he does have the power to change the country. I am also under the impression that the events in Birthright don't actually happen in Conquest since Corrin isn't sided with them to change what is going on. The entire reason for attacking the hospital was because of Corrin. At the same time with people like Iago, Hans, and Garon, similar acts are definitely happening. Unfortunately its not like he can communicate with his siblings easily, and won't listen to him either, so it is a lose lose situation for Corrin as well for what he is trying to accomplish.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Tolvir

[Tsuky]

Yes Xander is actively working against Garon, just not in front of him. Its always behind his back like sending people to help or warning Corrin about what he is trying to do. It actually makes a lot of sense because he wouldn't want to risk himself and others being executed, but knows Garon is wrong. That and it is always best to work right under their noses where they don't expect it. Garon believes Xander is completely faithful to him, so it is allowing Xander to keep doing what he is doing.

I don't have a problem with Hoshido so much, I was just looking at it from the point of view I have at the moment. I will say that Takumi's actions are starting to make more sense now because they are hinting at the fact that he already is or is in the process of being possessed by something. So he is not himself in any way, which makes me understand him a bit more if that is the case. Azura stated that he isn't acting like himself at all, and that while he is the type to be stand offish, he isn't the type to act with outright anger and violence towards another. He also keeps talking about how much pain he is in, so I am thinking that he is being possessed or manipulated by something.

Ryoma I also understand as well, since it is more of a blinded my emotions situation. He himself isn't a bad person at all, he is just blinded by the emotions of his brother, from what he feels like, betraying him. I personally feel that they handled this situation well since Corrin isn't trying to harm his siblings from Hoshido or fight against them, he is trying to stop the war completely. He is trying to change Nohr, which would stop the constant hostilities, and lower Hoshido's casualties in the process. Sure he doesn't have complete control over the Nohr army, but he does have the power to change the country. I am also under the impression that the events in Birthright don't actually happen in Conquest since Corrin isn't sided with them to change what is going on. The entire reason for attacking the hospital was because of Corrin. At the same time with people like Iago, Hans, and Garon, similar acts are definitely happening. Unfortunately its not like he can communicate with his siblings easily, and won't listen to him either, so it is a lose lose situation for Corrin as well for what he is trying to accomplish.

Very interesting analysis on your part, and I'm glad that you're sympathizing with both sides. Again, I'm trying really hard to not spoil, but the ending of Conquest may prove to be a disappointment and not what you expected based on what you've said... I guess we will find out. Which chapter are you currently on?

[FluffyWarlock]

With Birthright being blatant cultural posturing? Pfft. I had a easier time choosing Nohr.

[FlameUser64]

From what I've seen of Birthright, Hoshido isn't quite as "pure" as it wants you to think it is. They go on about vengeance and "Nohrian scum" a lot in Birthright. You'd think they'd be a little more sensitive given that Corrin lived most of his/her life there. They're lucky Corrin came back to them, considering how hard they tried at antagonizing Corrin by insulting his/her step-siblings. Heck, if they'd just shut up and stop antagonizing Corrin's Nohrian family every chance they get, this whole situation could have been resolved in Chapter 6!

Also Conquest's ending sounds like it's legitimately disappointing, though I don't know the details. Realistically I think the best way to end it would have been a large-scale battle between Nohr and Hoshido, only for Corrin's unit, as well as those of the other Nohrian siblings, to all turn traitor and attack Garon head-on. Probably with Hinoka's and maybe Sakura's help based on what I've seen in this thread. You'd end up with an odd three-way battle where Ryoma and Takumi's forces keep attacking both Garon's forces and those of Corrin & Co., while Hinoka's and Sakura's forces totally ignore or even outright cooperate with Corrin & Co.'s forces to focus on Garon's.

Also Elise is probably 14, which would make her "technically an adult" by medieval era standards.

[Tolvir]

Very interesting analysis on your part, and I'm glad that you're sympathizing with both sides. Again, I'm trying really hard to not spoil, but the ending of Conquest may prove to be a disappointment and not what you expected based on what you've said... I guess we will find out. Which chapter are you currently on?

i am on 14 right now. I am currently doing some of the children paralogues in order to catch some units up though, so it may be a bit before I actually continue.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Tolvir

[shadowofchaos]

Heck, if they'd just shut up and stop antagonizing Corrin's Nohrian family every chance they get, this whole situation could have been resolved in Chapter 6!

Yea...no.

Did you miss the part where Garon's behind all this crap? I'm also omitting spoilers.

I'm stupidly biased for Byakuya, because fantasy Japan... but at least I have the insight to admit when the crap I say is biased.

Edited February 22, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[FlameUser64]

Yea...no.

Did you miss the part where Garon's behind all this crap? I'm also omitting spoilers.

I'm stupidly biased for Byakuya, because fantasy Japan... but at least I have the insight to admit when the crap I say is biased.

No, I definitely didn't miss the part where Garon's behind everything. But a lot of that family tension stuff could potentially have been resolved right away, even if offing Garon still needs to happen. At least, that's my opinion of the situation.

Edited February 22, 2016 by FlameUser64

[shadowofchaos]

Did you forget chapter 5? You know? Their mother? Their reactions immediately following this is understandable, because what they know is that Nohrians were behind that, regardless of what actually happened.

Edited February 22, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[FlameUser64]

Did you forget chapter 5? You know? Their mother? Their reactions immediately following this is understandable, because what they know is that Nohrians were behind that, regardless of what actually happened.

Eh, fair. It's just that Corrin spends so much time repeatedly explaining how it was all a setup from King Garon. Still, in a situation like that it's hard to expect anyone to be in a particularly logical state of mind.

[Sentacotus]

As I play conquest one thing I wish was explored a little more and possibly a route it could have gone down was what the common Nohrian soldiers and officers thought about Garon's actions. I mean its evident from the beginning that the Royal siblings don't like what he's doing and are actively working against him and I have to assume they have command over certain armies. Unless we are just led to believe that EVERY single Nohrian is like Hans or Zola...

[Tsuky]

i am on 14 right now. I am currently doing some of the children paralogues in order to catch some units up though, so it may be a bit before I actually continue.

Ah, so you are close, but not yet at the part where most people start having problem with Conquest. Take your time and let me know what you think :)

From what I've seen of Birthright, Hoshido isn't quite as "pure" as it wants you to think it is. They go on about vengeance and "Nohrian scum" a lot in Birthright. You'd think they'd be a little more sensitive given that Corrin lived most of his/her life there. They're lucky Corrin came back to them, considering how hard they tried at antagonizing Corrin by insulting his/her step-siblings. Heck, if they'd just shut up and stop antagonizing Corrin's Nohrian family every chance they get, this whole situation could have been resolved in Chapter 6!

Also Conquest's ending sounds like it's legitimately disappointing, though I don't know the details. Realistically I think the best way to end it would have been a large-scale battle between Nohr and Hoshido, only for Corrin's unit, as well as those of the other Nohrian siblings, to all turn traitor and attack Garon head-on. Probably with Hinoka's and maybe Sakura's help based on what I've seen in this thread. You'd end up with an odd three-way battle where Ryoma and Takumi's forces keep attacking both Garon's forces and those of Corrin & Co., while Hinoka's and Sakura's forces totally ignore or even outright cooperate with Corrin & Co.'s forces to focus on Garon's.

Also Elise is probably 14, which would make her "technically an adult" by medieval era standards.

Going back to the whole gray morality thing. People want gray morality, right? Then why is it that when Hoshido is shown to have flaws, people pounce on it, while Nohr can get away with morally questionable actions? And what reason do they have to not antagonize Nohr and the Nohrian siblings? As far as they can tell, the Nohrian siblings are actively aiding Garon in, you know, invading their country. Yeah, no big deal.

The idea that you suggested for the ending to Conquest would've been pretty nice to implement, but... IS is stupid and that's not even close to what happens.

[Seanp12]

Going back to the whole gray morality thing. People want gray morality, right? Then why is it that when Hoshido is shown to have flaws, people pounce on it, while Nohr can get away with morally questionable actions?

Probably because the game keeps telling you they're the good guys and you're the bad for opposing them.

[Thane]

Ah, so you are close, but not yet at the part where most people start having problem with Conquest. Take your time and let me know what you think :)

I was just thinking the same thing actually. I've seen several sudden changes in attitude after that certain chapter, and if that doesn't do the trick, the last few usually do.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Thane

[saisymbolic]

Probably because the game keeps telling you they're the good guys and you're the bad for opposing them.

Basically how I feel.

No one has ever doubted that Nohr has done morally questionable things. Hell, that's a given as the game makes it blatantly and comically obvious that Nohr are the "bad" guys with the over-the-top, blood thirsty minions and apparently weaker storyline.

Hoshido is great. I like the kingdom and the storyline. But I'm not going to act as if their crap doesn't stink, either.

Edited February 22, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[Tsuky]

Probably because the game keeps telling you they're the good guys and you're the bad for opposing them.

But given the way the two countries are set up, the game isn't really wrong. They have their flaws, but still "the good guys," since Nohr is clearly the aggressor, and as far as we know, Hoshido hasn't done anything to deserve it. "The good side" doesn't have to be perfect.

I was just thinking the same thing actually. I've seen several sudden changes in attitude after that certain chapter, and if that doesn't do the trick, the last few usually do.

Personally, I wasn't too offended by the contrivance when I first got there. But chapter 16 (especially the title) was what did it for me. Like... wtf.