Does anyone else have a hard time choosing Nohr (conquest)?

[Dark Sage]

I'm at Chapter 20 right now in Conquest and have been paying close attention to the story.

The biggest problem so far is that it's boring. Chapter 6 sets up the struggle pretty well but wouldn't you know it, pretty much nothing happens after that, you're mostly just putting down rebellions by people who are introduced in that chapter and are never seen again. The plot is really aimless until Chapter 15 but then there's still very little happening. It's a route composed mostly of filler with not much tension. It feels less like there's a war going on and more like a set of matches between two rival blernsball teams, but tbf this one is probably just me.

Also the villains make the route much harder to take seriously because of how ridiculous they are. Garon is so evil that he literally bursts into a random fit of evil laughter at one point, which confuses even puppy-kicker Iago and he doesn't even bother to wait until the siblings leave before bragging about how much he loves making Corrin suffer. His plan to use Corrin as a living bomb is one of those plans where if something deviated only slightly from what actually occurred, then it would've completely failed. And then there's his ridiculous desire to make Corrin suffer. They try to justify it by saying it will corrupt her into being evil like he is, but it's pretty flimsy when you realize that early on, when she's seeing him for the first time since forever, Corrin desperately wants his approval and the reason why Xander is so loyal to Garon is because he remembers all the times Garon was nice to him. Iago and Hans are pretty much Lang except the game lets them survive for a longass time. Hans barely shows up and Iago's dialogue is so annoyingly repetitive that I want him to die, not because he's evil or a good villain or anything but so he'll finally shut the fuck up.

Also it's interesting how in Chapter 6, Ryoma's reaction to Corrin is "eat shit and die" before he desperately wants to bring her home later. I guess he's had a moment to cool off, though I would have much preferred it if he kept that attitude throughout the rest of game.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Dark Sage

[Lann La Mirah]

Nope. Actually, I would have a hard time picking Birthright. They showed me nothing in the paralogue that even moved me to want to pick Hoshido while the Nohr siblings were so charming it would break my heart into pieces to have Kamui leave Nohr to fight against them.

Same. Garon is a complete monster, but the bond between Corrin and the Nohrian siblings is really sweet (though a little crazy in Camilla's case).

Same.

Really for me the only reason to pick Hoshido is "morality" and the fact that they're not terrible human beings, just relatively honorable (and maybe just a tad racist) people . Whereas I love my Nohr siblings and have every right to want to join them again instead of risking life and limb fighting against the family I've already been established to love more than any other for a family of complete strangers who claim to be blood related and say they care about you despite immediately demanding you to butcher the people who raised you without question. I mean, there are good reasons to be on both sides, but the way its almost unrepentantly skewed towards the pure and perfect Hoshido actually repels me from wanting to choose it as a player, especially when I already have such a compelling family of siblings in Nohr. Plus, the Nohr siblings are simply more interesting in character to me.

I'll play and enjoy both of course, but I'm playing Conquest first right now for a reason.

Definitely agree, particularly the underlined parts.

also I have an adopted brother and the notion that your family has anything to do with blood really infuriates me.

100% agree here too. Glad I'm not alone, sheesh. Most people around me are so baffled by the concept of adoption. Like, completely. It upsets me, because their bewilderment bewilders me. XD

[goldenlance7]

Also the villains make the route much harder to take seriously because of how ridiculous they are. Garon is so evil that he literally bursts into a random fit of evil laughter at one point, which confuses even puppy-kicker Iago and he doesn't even bother to wait until the siblings leave before bragging about how much he loves making Corrin suffer.

I always saw that scene as Xander knew Garon would try to pull something like that and eavesdropped on Garon after everyone left makes more sense.

[Katryn]

Same. Garon is a complete monster, but the bond between Corrin and the Nohrian siblings is really sweet (though a little crazy in Camilla's case).

Definitely agree, particularly the underlined parts.

100% agree here too. Glad I'm not alone, sheesh. Most people around me are so baffled by the concept of adoption. Like, completely. It upsets me, because their bewilderment bewilders me. XD

1. Pretty much sums up my taken on Garon and family.

2. Yes, this. A company selling two products and making the consumer feel bad for buying one of them is bad business. Player as a darker or more (potentially) villainous side of a conflict can be popular (Star Wars: The Old Republic for example) and it can be done without blatantly having the player's character say they were wrong. Having bad things happen and the player feels uncomfortable? That's totally fine. But telling the player how to feel is bad writing.

3. Yes, I feel very strongly about this, too. Two of my best friends were adopted. So was my brother's girlfriend. So was my grandfather. When you add the villain element it can definitely add a twist to that, but many people seem uncapable or unwilling to try and imagine it from the more simple / real scenario of adoption and -then- potentially expand. While it is true that the Hoshidans did try to get Corrin back and did love and want him / her, he or she did not grow up with this knowledge and bond. Some people (who become Hoshido Corrin) can likely say they see evidence of this while in Hoshido--and that's fine. Other people (who pick Nohr Corrin) either don't see this or do not care because they still value their Nohrian siblings more (Garon be damned).

[The DanMan]

I think it's ridiculous that they give you the choice to go with Nohr only to have preemptively shit on any real reason to have made that choice and make it painfully obvious that you chose the wrongly.

And then lock map good map design and challenge behind that choice.

Edited February 21, 2016 by The DanMan

[Dark Holy Elf]

I tried to come at the choice from a roleplaying perspective and I chose Nohr, though with some reservations. I get why some people are saying Hoshido is "obvious", and if I were an impartial third party I would also counsel Corrin to side with Hoshido. But... in his/her shoes? There's no way I could betray the siblings I had spent my entire life growing up with and close to (and the game sells you very well on the bond they share). I would want to stay with them and protect them, and if my dad were super-evil, well, we'd try to do something about that I guess. I'd probably even want to see if I could get through to my dad and make him be less evil. Seems easier to accomplish if all five of his children worked together.

Having said that, for all that I'm on Team Nohr, I don't really have a problem for the game judging you for it. It's an in-character choice to make, for sure, but it's arguably not the "right" one, and if that choice leads to more bloodshed/bad things for the world (seems possible; I'm only at chapter 9!), then Corrin feeling guilt about the choice seems immensely believable!

[NekoKnight]

I think the choice of over the family who raised you and your blood family requires some interpretation of how Kamui feels about his life. Is Kamui happy in Nohr or does the realization of having a second family who loves him and wants him back make a significant conflict of interests? To some, choosing the family who raised you is obvious but this discounts how Kamui feels about not having a mother and being treated like shit by his "father" in Nohr. This is the same guy who tries to have you killed twice.

The deciding factor for me is Kamui's plan of action behind each choice. Choosing Hoshido is "I'll defend the virtuous country and avoid fighting/spare my adopted siblings." Choosing Nohr is "I'll aid the side promoting a war of aggression and maybe mitigate the damage." When you choose Hoshido, Kamui would have succeeded in protecting his family and the virtuous country if not for Marx's actions. Choosing Nohr is a predictable negative outcome.

I think it's ridiculous that they give you the choice to go with Nohr only to have preemptively shit on any real reason to have made that choice and make it painfully obvious that you chose the wrongly.

And then lock map good map design and challenge behind that choice.

But if Nohr didn't have good map design, there wouldn't be a reason to choose it.

I think the real shitty thing about Nohr is that Kamui chooses that side to be with the family who raised him but also to fix Nohr from the inside.

The problem is, the story never allows Kamui to do that and he's locked into a constant cycle of failure and sadness. He wants to stop the war but he doesn't have a plan, and ends up contributing to the war effort instead. He wants to spare people but the villains just kill the people he spares. Why would you give me a route choice but constantly undermine my agency, making all of my goals fruitless? No wonder Kamui regrets not choosing Hoshido. It really is the superior choice.

[warchiefwilliams]

The problem is, the story never allows Kamui to do that and he's locked into a constant cycle of failure and sadness. He wants to stop the war but he doesn't have a plan, and ends up contributing to the war effort instead. He wants to spare people but the villains just kill the people he spares. Why would you give me a route choice but constantly undermine my agency, making all of my goals fruitless? No wonder Kamui regrets not choosing Hoshido. It really is the superior choice.

And this is why once my life calms down a little I will likely attempt a full rewrite of Conquest. Seriously, the base work for a really good piece of medieval fantasy is here, full of political intrigue, war, love and death. Instead, the game chastises us for picking what was advertised as the more interesting option (at least to those of us who chose Conquest). It bloody well sucks, especially when they lock A) Good maps, B) unique objectives and C) interesting characters behind this wall.

[Seanp12]

I know nothing of the plot yet. (My 3DS hasn't arrived yet, even though I have the SE.) However, I envisioned Conquest to somehow give Nohr a moral reason to fight Hoshido. Then once they won and had defeated the Hoshidan royals, Garon would become even more iron-fisted and Corrin would turn against Garon while simultaneously trying to keep Hoshido from accidentally making something worse a la Kirby-in-every-one-of-his-games-ever. I'm kinda bummed to hear that's not the case.

[BruceLee]

100% agree here too. Glad I'm not alone, sheesh. Most people around me are so baffled by the concept of adoption. Like, completely. It upsets me, because their bewilderment bewilders me. XD

3. Yes, I feel very strongly about this, too. Two of my best friends were adopted. So was my brother's girlfriend. So was my grandfather. When you add the villain element it can definitely add a twist to that, but many people seem uncapable or unwilling to try and imagine it from the more simple / real scenario of adoption and -then- potentially expand. While it is true that the Hoshidans did try to get Corrin back and did love and want him / her, he or she did not grow up with this knowledge and bond. Some people (who become Hoshido Corrin) can likely say they see evidence of this while in Hoshido--and that's fine. Other people (who pick Nohr Corrin) either don't see this or do not care because they still value their Nohrian siblings more (Garon be damned).

Not sure what point you two are trying to make, no one here has used the fact that the Nohrians are your adopted family as an argument against Nohr.

Edited February 21, 2016 by BruceLee

[warchiefwilliams]

Not sure what point you two are trying to make, no one here has used the fact that the Nohrians are your adopted family as an argument against Nohr.

I think the point they are trying to counter is the idea that Kamui should return to Hoshido because they are their "true family" as opposed to the Nohrians who are the adopted (via child kidnapping services) family. There are some other threads that say that Kamui should return to their blood family because, well, blood-ties trump all in their opinion. A valid opinion, though many, including myself, disagree.

[Sunwoo]

I think there might be a big thing that a LOT of people are missing here regarding the whole blood vs. adoption debate.

One of my friends, who is a member on this site and whom I've been hanging out with a lot recently, is adopted. So it's not like I'm unsympathetic towards adoptive families or think that blood bonds always triumph. Your family is who raised you, who cares about you, and who you love and love you back.

The problem? Kamui wasn't adopted.

This is what I think a lot of people forget. Kamui was not adopted. Kamui was kidnapped. This is NOT a situation in which blood relatives of a child willingly gave them up for adoption or flaked out on them, and the adoptive family stepped up. This is a situation in which Kamui already had a family that loved them, but Nohr attacked and killed Sumeragi then kidnapped Kamui.

Even if Kamui was happy growing up with the Nohr siblings, to say that this is blood vs. adoption is pure intellectual dishonesty because Kamui was NOT given up by their blood family to an adoptive family that truly loved them. He was kidnapped from the family that his mother married into and had their memories manipulated. Now, whether Kamui or the players want to pick Nohr despite that is your choice and I don't care what you do, but a lot of the semantics of how you guys are portraying the two sides just seems outright dishonest or false.

[Seanp12]

Garon kidnapped Corrin, but that doesn't mean the Nohrian siblings didn't adopt him. (Unless you're speaking legally.)

[warchiefwilliams]

I think there might be a big thing that a LOT of people are missing here regarding the whole blood vs. adoption debate.

One of my friends, who is a member on this site and whom I've been hanging out with a lot recently, is adopted. So it's not like I'm unsympathetic towards adoptive families or think that blood bonds always triumph. Your family is who raised you, who cares about you, and who you love and love you back.

The problem? Kamui wasn't adopted.

This is what I think a lot of people forget. Kamui was not adopted. Kamui was kidnapped. This is NOT a situation in which blood relatives of a child willingly gave them up for adoption or flaked out on them, and the adoptive family stepped up. This is a situation in which Kamui already had a family that loved them, but Nohr attacked and killed Sumeragi then kidnapped Kamui.

Even if Kamui was happy growing up with the Nohr siblings, to say that this is blood vs. adoption is pure intellectual dishonesty because Kamui was NOT given up by their blood family to an adoptive family that truly loved them. He was kidnapped from the family that his mother married into and had their memories manipulated. Now, whether Kamui or the players want to pick Nohr despite that is your choice and I don't care what you do, but a lot of the semantics of how you guys are portraying the two sides just seems outright dishonest or false.

technically, the blood part is dishonest as well, given certain... things... the player can do.

[BruceLee]

I think the point they are trying to counter is the idea that Kamui should return to Hoshido because they are their "true family" as opposed to the Nohrians who are the adopted (via child kidnapping services) family. There are some other threads that say that Kamui should return to their blood family because, well, blood-ties trump all in their opinion. A valid opinion, though many, including myself, disagree.

If it was simply a question of Bond vs Blood it would be completely different, but it's not. Almost all who are arguing against Nohr are doing so from a morality standpoint, not a blood-related standpoint.

In fact, the Nohr defenders are the ones who are constantly bringing up the ''adopted family, but still love you'' thing. It's like the majority is completely missing the bigger picture.

[Sunwoo]

Garon kidnapped Corrin, but that doesn't mean the Nohrian siblings didn't adopt him. (Unless you're speaking legally.)

I'm speaking in the sense that it's not a simple "blood vs. bonds" thing. Most people who are adopted were not kidnapped from a family that didn't want to give them up. It's very difficult to understand how one would react if they found out that the family that raised them had actually kidnapped them (and had perhaps killed someone in their previous family while doing so), and the other family has always tried to get them back. So people saying that they know people who are adopted who would never go back to their blood families is not a good comparison unless those people were actually kidnapped from their blood families.

technically, the blood part is dishonest as well, given certain... things... the player can do.

I am perfectly aware of that, which is why I didn't actually refer to them as that.

[Anacybele]

Garon kidnapped Corrin, but that doesn't mean the Nohrian siblings didn't adopt him. (Unless you're speaking legally.)

While this is true, the Hoshido siblings still didn't give him/her up willingly. They still loved him/her dearly and desperately tried to get him/her back.

[Katryn]

I strongly doubt anyone picking Nohr is doing so from a moral standpoint. The game's blatantly clear on what is "right" and "wrong" and also on how your character feels about it based on what path you choose for him or her. There is no sense in having a discussion on morality in Fates. *That* aspect of the game was weakly done and is essentially paint by numbers.

I thought people were interested in *why* people are choosing Nohr, or what justifications Corrin (who doesn't have this outside source of morality, bless his / her soul--otherwise there would be no need for two paths. He or she finds out the ramifications of the choice once it's too late.) might have for choosing it.

If we really are discussing the question only at face value?:

I have no problem with choosing Nohr. I'm not really killing anyone. They're pixels. I feel no remorse for picking the ones I think look / think / sound / act more interestingly. I'm a pretty straight laced, moral, decent person in real life. I enjoy shades of gray or black when I can get them in games, film or fiction. I'm a writer and that happens to be my area of expertise--been interested in it since childhood. It's even better when these shades of morality are well done, but we can't have it all and with regard to FE I will take what I can get.

[BruceLee]

I strongly doubt anyone picking Nohr is doing so from a moral standpoint. The game's blatantly clear on what is "right" and "wrong" and also on how your character feels about it based on what path you choose for him or her. There is no sense in having a discussion on morality in Fates. *That* aspect of the game was weakly done and is essentially paint by numbers.

I've seen quite a few people defend Nohr from a moral standpoint though. That's all i'm arguing against. I can completely understand if you prefer Nohr for whatever reasons, what i can't understand is when people defend it from a moral standpoint.

[Katryn]

I've seen quite a few people defend Nohr from a moral standpoint though. That's all i'm arguing against. I can completely understand if you prefer Nohr for whatever reasons, what i can't understand is when people defend it from a moral standpoint.

Ah, I see. Then we actually agree in that respect. A healthy, well balanced individual would not condone what Garon is doing coming from the outside looking in. I'm not saying no one would side with Nohr--there are those who choose other things / feel other things have a higher value than flat out morality... But nah, it's driven home hard that you picked the wrong door. *laughs*

Which of course (and I feel a lot of us agree on this regardless of morality angles, etc.) is why there is such a big problem with how the whole Nohr thing is set up. It has a fantastic premise and could have been done so much better if there had been a solid reason to go with them. The sibling love is a legit reason *for Corrin*, in my opinion, but it's not backed up by a reasonable / believable situation. We essentially get Mikoto=good, Garon=bad and that's the end of it.

[Sentacotus]

I think its safe to say that Nohr is supposed to be painted as the darker path. However, I think there are a few things that need to be taken in consideration. I'm only on Chapter 18 but here are just some observations.

Xander

I think he figures out that his father Garon is fucked up from the beginning and I think its obvious he begins to question his loyalty to Garon in ch6/7. He does after all overhear his conversation with Lago about how he is intentionally and mechanically sending Corrin on suicidal missions. So he goes behind his back and sends Corrin help even though he was meant to be alone. Now sure you can say ask why he is loyal until its painfully obvious that Garon is possessed, but I think from the beginning he was already actively working against Garon. When it comes to going to war with Hoshido, he could reject Garon but that would probably also not solve the problem and get him killed too.

Leo

After completing the boat chapter he effectively saves Corrin from being executed for saying stupid shit in front of Garon and later talks to Corrin and gives him advice on how to put a face on for Garon while not going along with his plans to kill everything in sight. He mentions how his siblings had been effectively doing that for years against Garon and effectively use it as a means to act against him. Hell he even mentions himself how the rest of the siblings along with himself don't agree one bit with the way Garon does business. But he alongside the rest of them know that if they openly speak out against him that will get them killed.

While Nohr is painted as the bad guys I do think its important to know how the Royals (to include even Xander) do actively do things against Garon but also realize if they speak out against him that they'll only get themselves and the people they care about killed. So what I think IS was trying to do was make that the moral question of the Nohr path is the dilemma between not condoning and being against what Garon is doing but trying to find a way to get rid of him without getting themselves killed in the process. Kind of Games of Thrones like in a way.

[Captain Karnage]

I think that the reason the game's original name was FE if, was because of the Nohr path

instead of going with the obvious good guys the game lets you see what would happen if you sided with the antagonists of the peacful kingdom

[Alazen]

Fates tries to spin Corrin as this shining paragon even in the Nohr Path. The thing is that Nohr is presented as the ''wrong'' side (war crimes, being a crime ridden cesspit, Elise as the ''One Good Sibling'', Garon having Papa Hoshido killed, having ) even if Corrin is on her side. The narrative repeatedly twists itself so that Corrin won't be vilified for his actions.

[The DanMan]

And this is why once my life calms down a little I will likely attempt a full rewrite of Conquest. Seriously, the base work for a really good piece of medieval fantasy is here, full of political intrigue, war, love and death. Instead, the game chastises us for picking what was advertised as the more interesting option (at least to those of us who chose Conquest). It bloody well sucks, especially when they lock A) Good maps, B) unique objectives and C) interesting characters behind this wall.

We've got multiple people re-writing the entirety of Fates' plot, last time I checked.

[Vitezen]

The morality debate over whether or not one should choose Nohr or Hoshido is completely subjective though. Morals are a code to which you subscribe. You can objectively evaluate whether or not something violates a given moral code, but you cannot say that one moral code is objectively superior to another. I saw nothing morally wrong with siding with Nohr, I just hated the story that makes you out to be an indecisive, whiny idiot when you should know exactly what you're in for by living in Nohr.