Least Favorite Characters?

[BruceLee]

Conquest Ch27

Sure he doesn't realise what he's done until Slime Garon, but it proves how loyal he is to his country and that he is worthy of being next heir to the throne. He is a strong willed man that can be king as nothing of royalty cannot be weak to going on the offensive if politics don't work. He kept it secret to Corrin that he/she isn't a Nohrian, but what's the difference if he/she is happy?

1. He perfectly realizes what he's done, even before he finds out his daddy is a slime. He just doesn't give a fuck if other people are suffering as long as he can make his daddy proud.

2. I don't see how a person who invades and kills just because his daddy tells him to is qualified to be a good ruler.

3. What's the difference as long as Kamui is happy you ask? Then why does he try to kill you when you want to go back to your real family after finding out you've been abducted from them all this time and have been living a lie, and then immediately get your own mother killed because of Garon? As long as Kamui's happy right? Give me a break.

The game trying to make me see him as an honorable and lovable guy is seriously one of the most annoying things.

Edited February 28, 2016 by BruceLee

[Karis]

1. He perfectly realizes what he's done, even before he finds out his daddy is a slime. He just doesn't give a fuck if other people are suffering as long as he can make his daddy proud.

2. I don't see how a person who invades and kills just because his daddy tells him to is qualified to be a good ruler.

3. What's the difference as long as Kamui is happy you ask? Then why does he try to kill you when you want to go back to your real family after finding out you've been abducted from them all this time and have been living a lie, and then immediately get your own mother killed because of Garon? As long as Kamui's happy right? Give me a break.

The game trying to make me see him as an honorable and lovable guy is seriously one of the most annoying things.

1.) You're being incredibly one-sided. Do you really think Xander could say no to the man who rules the whole country? So if the President of the US came to you, put a gun in your hand and to your head, and then told you kill a random person or he'll kill you, you wouldn't do it? What a bleeding heart you have.

2.) Because Xander knows what NOT to do. Again, if you played Conquest you'd know this.

Honestly, I think you need to play Conquest. If you already have, you need a better understanding of why people have no choice in their actions.

Edited February 28, 2016 by Karis

[Azure Sen]

1.) You're being incredibly one-sided. Do you really think Xander could say no to the man who rules the whole country? So if the President of the US came to you, put a gun in your hand and to your head, and then told you kill a random person or he'll kill you, you wouldn't do it? What a bleeding heart you have.

2.) Because Xander knows what NOT to do. Again, if you played Conquest you'd know this.

Honestly, I think you need to play Conquest. If you already have, you need a better understanding of why people have no choice in their actions.

1) Yes, yes he could. Other Fire Emblem Lords have done it (see also: Marth, Alm, Sigurd, Seliph, etc.). Also, that analogy is awful for a number of reasons and has nothing to do with the situation at hand.

2) Having played Conquest...no, no he does not. He makes a number of bad decisions, has trouble empathizing with the struggles of those outside his family, and has the diplomatic skill of a stick.

I've played Conquest, and I still think Xander is awful. He had a choice. He just chose the one that would be less inconvenient for him and his family.

[Karis]

1) Yes, yes he could. Other Fire Emblem Lords have done it (see also: Marth, Alm, Sigurd, Seliph, etc.). Also, that analogy is awful for a number of reasons and has nothing to do with the situation at hand.

2) Having played Conquest...no, no he does not. He makes a number of bad decisions, has trouble empathizing with the struggles of those outside his family, and has the diplomatic skill of a stick.

I've played Conquest, and I still think Xander is awful. He had a choice. He just chose the one that would be less inconvenient for him and his family.

If Xander didn't obey, Garon would have killed him. It's also why Corrin "obeys" Garon. That fits my example pretty well. Xander can't help his people if he's dead. So rather than be dead, he took the more difficult path that would make people hate him, so that he could live to see his dream come true.

[Thane]

1) Yes, yes he could. Other Fire Emblem Lords have done it (see also: Marth, Alm, Sigurd, Seliph, etc.). Also, that analogy is awful for a number of reasons and has nothing to do with the situation at hand.

2) Having played Conquest...no, no he does not. He makes a number of bad decisions, has trouble empathizing with the struggles of those outside his family, and has the diplomatic skill of a stick.

I've played Conquest, and I still think Xander is awful. He had a choice. He just chose the one that would be less inconvenient for him and his family.

Adding to this, if you want to put a character in a position where they'd be powerless to do anything (which, like AzureSen said doesn't make sense in the Fire Emblem setting anyway), at least have the decency to portray it well and NOT make the guy look like a hero we're supposed to like.

The fact remains that we know extremely little about his relationship to Garon and even the latter's entire personality pre-slime in general, which is one of the key reasons his behavior comes across as odd, to put it mildly. Also, like mentioned earlier, Fire Emblem has had many similar situations like this where this has been done far better; Sacred Stones could probably provide the closest parallel: a king goes batshit and is questioned by his commanders and all of their reasons staying or abandoning are explained and their actions are easier to relate to and understand as a result.

[BruceLee]

1.) You're being incredibly one-sided. Do you really think Xander could say no to the man who rules the whole country? So if the President of the US came to you, put a gun in your hand and to your head, and then told you kill a random person or he'll kill you, you wouldn't do it? What a bleeding heart you have.

2.) Because Xander knows what NOT to do. Again, if you played Conquest you'd know this.

Honestly, I think you need to play Conquest. If you already have, you need a better understanding of why people have no choice in their actions.

I'm not being one-sided. I've looked at both sides, and my conclusion is that Xander's a piece of shit. You make it sound like Xander is so very opposed to the invasion of Hoshido, which actually makes me believe you're the one who hasn't played Conquest.

[Karis]

I'm not being one-sided. I've looked at both sides, and my conclusion is that Xander's a piece of shit. You make it sound like Xander is so very opposed to the invasion of Hoshido, which actually makes me believe you're the one who hasn't played Conquest.

Um, hello? He WAS opposed to it. Xander did everything he could from the shadows even to make sure not everyone died, even going as far as to hide the very people his father wanted dead.

[Thane]

I'd also take this opportunity to mention that Xander is a little shit in Birthright as well.

Um, hello? He WAS opposed to it. Xander did everything he could from the shadows even to make sure not everyone died, even going as far as to hide the very people his father wanted dead.

And utterly failing to prevent a lot of his atrocities, clenching his fists in his pockets and just saying that justice doesn't exist. What a hero.

[BruceLee]

Um, hello? He WAS opposed to it. Xander did everything he could from the shadows even to make sure not everyone died, even going as far as to hide the very people his father wanted dead.

Not opposed enough. My daddy tells me to slaughter your family, I don't like it, but i'm gonna do it anyway, because my daddy told me to. Oh what a lovable guy i am.

[Sunwoo]

Holy format break! Who's the smartass responsible for this?!

To respond to an above point: why would I want to play as a character who has no choice in their actions? It's really not fun. It's true, sometimes people have no choice in their actions. But they're awful as protagonists because it's frustrating to see their inaction. It's frustrating to see them not be able to do anything. While not everyone has the strength to make a difference, the reason stories often focus on the ones who DO is because they are interesting in that they made a difference even when most people could not. Someone who doesn't stand up, even if realistic, is boring.

Speaking of which, I think I've pinpointed my real reason for disliking Nohr!Kamui. (Reasons for disliking Revelation!Kamui are different, and I don't really dislike Hoshido!Kamui.)

Playing as Kamui on Nohr simply isn't empowering. He's stuck in a shitty situation, but he can't do anything about it. And when Aqua does get a plan, it really isn't any different than if he'd just continued doing nothing, and even when he wants to accomplish something Garon and his lackeys are there to undo what he wanted to do.

Micaiah in FE10 felt more empowering than Nohr!Kamui. Yes, she is stuck in a shitty situation too. But in part 1, we saw her rebelling against Begnion. And in part 3, she actively decides to stay in a shitty situation because she loves her country. Micaiah doesn't care if she goes down as a villain in history, as long as it is for the good of Daein and Daein's survival. I can respect that. Micaiah is in a shit situation, but she never whines and she knows full well that she will need to make unsavory decisions to save Daein. But she accepts that she can be the bad guy as long as it saves her country.

Kamui actually had a choice, unlike Micaiah, to choose whether he wanted to be in Nohr or Hoshido. And when he chooses Nohr, he doesn't really get to choose what he wants to do. He's just following Garon's orders up until chapter 15, when Aqua tells him about her "plan" … which in all honestly is not really a plan? I mean … Garon was already invading Hoshido. All Aqua's plan added was an additional step at the end of invading Hoshido. And even then, anything Kamui tries to do is overruled by Garon and Iago and Ganz, who only exist to make him cry.

[spoiler=Conquest spoilers]And unlike Micaiah, Kamui can't even have the decency to admit that in Hoshido's eyes, he may be the villain in all this. What does he say again? "My happiness is a small price to pay to save the world"? You seemed perfectly happy in the Conquest ending scene, laughing with all of your Nohr siblings and getting the undeserved forgiveness of your sisters in Hoshido. No, your happiness is not the sacrifice. The real sacrifice is Hoshido.

"I hope one day we can meet together and laugh as siblings"? Hey genius, one of those siblings just threw himself off a damn wall in the previous chapter! He's dead! You CAN'T be one whole family anymore!

And he still seems to think that he "saved" Hoshido. He didn't really do anything to save them. I think the only time he actually made a difference was saving Hinoka, but other than that nothing he does in the actual invasion of Hoshido really sticks. If Kamui had some decency like Micaiah to realize that he still was complicit in the invasion of Hoshido and may go down as the bad guy to them, or if he actively acknowledged that Hoshido was the sacrifice to pay for saving NOHR, I'd be fine with it. But the way the story is written … it's like it wants me to believe he's the good guy in everything when he's not.

Edited February 28, 2016 by Sunwoo

[Katryn]

I'd also take this opportunity to mention that Xander is a little shit in Birthright as well.

And utterly failing to prevent a lot of his atrocities, clenching his fists in his pockets and just saying that justice doesn't exist. What a hero.

And he's a Paladin to boot. Oh the irony, eh? (In most mythology / games, Paladins are holy warriors of justice. I'm aware that doesn't necessarily apply to FE--there have been paladin villains before--but Xander tries so hard to fit the classic archetype and fails so miserably... )

Edited February 28, 2016 by Katryn

[Karis]

I'd also take this opportunity to mention that Xander is a little shit in Birthright as well.

And utterly failing to prevent a lot of his atrocities, clenching his fists in his pockets and just saying that justice doesn't exist. What a hero.

Not opposed enough. My daddy tells me to slaughter your family, I don't like it, but i'm gonna do it anyway, because my daddy told me to. Oh what a lovable guy i am.

So now we're expecting every action to work? People fail. It happens. Yes, Xander failed. What would you have done? Would you have openly opposed a man who would kill you without a second thought? Or would you have swallowed your pride and done what was told of you while also working on how to get out of doing it?

Who was the one who openly argued to keep Nohr!Corrin safe? Xander.

Who sneaked all the retainers out to Nohr!Corrin to help in their mission? Xander.

Who was the first of the children to side with you once the truth was revealed. Xander.

Yeah, he's not a good guy. He makes bad calls. But he does his best to help when it's needed most.

[PlasticandRage]

Oddly I find Subaki worse... All his convo he shouts PERFECTION.... Literally none of his convos ever had him not mention his perfection... At least Cordelia was modest about it.... (Haven't got to play as kids yet so no judging Caledori well I can't anyways...) anyways I really dislike Saizo... Surprisingly.... Out of all the ninjas (counting his rip off of gauis son, Asugi) I disliked him the most... He wasn't that interesting for me... And I used him the least of the 4 ninjas in birthright... Kagero (dispite how late she comes) surpasses him in strength and I love her convos, especially the exotic paintings of hell that she creates XD

I think it's meant to be a play on the whole zen feudal Japan/samurai training thing. How part of training to be a samurai was attempting to find perfection in every aspect of everything you do. But they added to it by making him really arrogant and over confident. I can see how thatd make him unlikable but Im enjoying him. Hes turned out really well for me in terms of stats. Hes one of the strongest characters on my team in fact, so I guess I'm little baised there, but I thought his support conversations with Rinkah were fun, because she gets angry at every little thing and hes confused by it because he believes he's the personification of perfection. I actually married the two of them partly because I found the irony of it enjoyable.

Don't get me wrong, I like Robin and Morgan better too but wasn't Morgan an amnesiac tactician just like her dad in the same way Kana takes after her dad?

Yeah absolutely, but personally I found both of their personalities a million times more endearing to begin with, so the repeated aspects of Morgans didnt bother me at all. Being that I think Corrins a douchebag, repeating aspects of his personality in Kana has the same effect. Hes unlikable, so his daughter whose repeating that unlikability is also unlikable.

Edited February 28, 2016 by PlasticandRage

[CyborgZeta]

Honestly, pretty much everybody except maybe Jakob.

I actually like Awakening's cast better than Fates, which is really weird.

[BruceLee]

Who was the one who openly argued to keep Nohr!Corrin safe? Xander.

Who sneaked all the retainers out to Nohr!Corrin to help in their mission? Xander.

Who was the first of the children to side with you once the truth was revealed. Xander.

Yeah, he's not a good guy. He makes bad calls. But he does his best to help when it's needed most.

Not sure if you noticed, but all of those examples are him protecting Kamui. As i said earlier in this thread, Xander is only willing to endanger himself if it's to protect people close to him, but when it's innocents who he doesn't now that are suffering, he's fine ignoring it. Innocents who are suffering because of his actions, mind you.

[PlasticandRage]

Honestly, pretty much everybody except maybe Jakob.

I actually like Awakening's cast better than Fates, which is really weird.

I did too. I liked a lot of the characters from Awakening. Sullys easily one of my series favorites period. I really liked the super dark female dark caster too. I cant remember her name now. All of her support conversations were fantastic. A lot of Awakenings characters had great personality.

I thought the story explaining why the child characters in Awakening were able to show up as productive adult members of your army was a million times better in Awakening too. It was a big part of the plot, and was written in a way that not only made sense but really worked. I thought Lucina was awesome in that way. They were traveling through time trying to correct a potential future where mankind was wiped out. In Fates it just feels like a cop out. Its deus ex machina. The writers didnt know what to do with them this time in order to make the narrative make sense, so instead they were like 'uuh alright well theres this alternate reality where time flows faster that has nothing to do with anything else at all, and we're just going to stick them there.' The plot of Fates is like going to a fastfood restaurant and being made a burger that looks like they do on the menu, and then right before they give it to you the retarded kid that works there sits on it and then hands it to you and tells you to have a nice day.

Edited February 28, 2016 by PlasticandRage

[solrocknroll]

Not sure if you noticed, but all of those examples are him protecting Kamui. As i said earlier in this thread, Xander is only willing to endanger himself if it's to protect people close to him, but when it's innocents who he doesn't now that are suffering, he's fine ignoring it. Innocents who are suffering because of his actions, mind you.

Who wouldn't put the needs of their famiy over the needs of random strangers? This is a pretty common mindset and only makes Xander more relatable. I know that I wouldn't care about some random people if my family was in trouble, especially people from another country under another ruler's jurisdiction. It's also apparent because FE has nameless randoms as the innocents, and I find it very difficult to sympathize with nameless randoms.

[Thane]

So now we're expecting every action to work? People fail. It happens. Yes, Xander failed. What would you have done? Would you have openly opposed a man who would kill you without a second thought? Or would you have swallowed your pride and done what was told of you while also working on how to get out of doing it?

Who was the one who openly argued to keep Nohr!Corrin safe? Xander.

Who sneaked all the retainers out to Nohr!Corrin to help in their mission? Xander.

Who was the first of the children to side with you once the truth was revealed. Xander.

Yeah, he's not a good guy. He makes bad calls. But he does his best to help when it's needed most.

We can play that game all night long and we'd never get anywhere, so I'll just ask this: have you played Revelations or at least knows what happens? The difference in his characterization is like night and day, and he's much closer to his support version of himself rather than his spineless coward portrayal in Birthright and Conquest, and thank the gods for that.

And you're wondering if I expect every action to succeed, which I absolutely don't since that'd create a very boring story. However, Xander doesn't accomplish nearly enough, comes across as both idiotic and incompetent as a result, says idiotic things like "justice doesn't exist" as if that would excuse his inaction - and the game wants the player to like him even though he clearly doesn't deserve it.

Again, Garon is not all-knowing, in fact he seems to be incredibly slow on the uptake. Not only doesn't he notice it when his children go behind his back but he doesn't even notice [spoiler=Birthright endgame spoilers]Xander and Elise dying in the same castle he's in

. The fact that Xander can't stop Hans or Iago from being dicks because daddy might hear of it makes no sense, and we're given no reason to believe Garon would execute them for that, especially since he values Xander's strength. Xander's options were many and if he was as noble as the game tries to make him out to be, then he wouldn't have invaded an innocent nation, but instead join forces with as is the norm in Fire Emblem.

Fighting for the wrong side because he's too afraid to do anything else does not make him a sympathetic character for many different reasons, but most importantly of all it's simply not fun to follow him.

As an aside, what the hell happened to the layout of this thread? Is it just me or are things completely messed up?

Edited February 28, 2016 by Thane

[Sunwoo]

As an aside, what the hell happened to the layout of this thread? Is it just me or are things completely messed up?

Someone on the previous page broke the formatting. It seems to have fixed itself on the new page, though.

Other than that, I have to say I agree with what you say.

Edited February 28, 2016 by Sunwoo

[Azure Sen]

And he's a Paladin to boot. Oh the irony, eh? (IN most mythology / games, Paladins are holy warriors of justice. I'm aware that doesn't necessarily apply to FE--there have been paladin villains before--but Xander tries so hard to fit the classic archetype and fails so miserably... )

Re: the Paladin thing, at least Camus realized what he was doing was wrong, which is more than I can say for most of the enemy blond Paladins FE games try to present as honorable. (Lookin' at you, Percival.) We never get a reason as to why Camus is so loyal, but it doesn't matter because, again, he clearly knows he's working for the bad guys and has chosen to stick with his decision.

So now we're expecting every action to work? People fail. It happens. Yes, Xander failed. What would you have done? Would you have openly opposed a man who would kill you without a second thought? Or would you have swallowed your pride and done what was told of you while also working on how to get out of doing it?

Who was the one who openly argued to keep Nohr!Corrin safe? Xander.

Who sneaked all the retainers out to Nohr!Corrin to help in their mission? Xander.

Who was the first of the children to side with you once the truth was revealed. Xander.

Yeah, he's not a good guy. He makes bad calls. But he does his best to help when it's needed most.

Again, that's not nor ever what Fire Emblem has been about. Overthrowing evil dictators who want to kill you is just a standard Tuesday afternoon in Fire Emblem. Enabling the villains to do what they please is always the action of a villainous character, albeit one with noble traits and a good reason to. Two things that Xander clearly lacks.

And, as BruceLee pointed out, the spoilers is all him protecting Kamui. But whenever other people are in danger? He could care less.

[BruceLee]

Who wouldn't put the needs of their famiy over the needs of random strangers? This is a pretty common mindset and only makes Xander more relatable. I know that I wouldn't care about some random people if my family was in trouble, especially people from another country under another ruler's jurisdiction.

Reread my post, i didn't say he should put the needs of strangers over the needs of his family. I'm calling him out for his selfish behaviour.

It's also apparent because FE has nameless randoms as the innocents, and I find it very difficult to sympathize with nameless randoms.

This means absolutely nothing to the discussion at hand, all it says is that you don't immerse yourself into the game's world very much.

Someone on the previous page broke the formatting. It seems to have fixed itself on the new page, though.

Other than that, I have to say I agree with what you say.

Was that me(my spoiler tags weren't working)? I don't know what happened or how i'm capable of making the thread trip for others lol.

[Azure Sen]

Who wouldn't put the needs of their famiy over the needs of random strangers? This is a pretty common mindset and only makes Xander more relatable. I know that I wouldn't care about some random people if my family was in trouble, especially people from another country under another ruler's jurisdiction. It's also apparent because FE has nameless randoms as the innocents, and I find it very difficult to sympathize with nameless randoms.

Except that's an awful trait for a future ruler to have, considering his job would require him to put the needs of people he's never met (and doesn't really care about beyond lip service, to be honest) over the needs of his family. That's also not considering all the Nohrians (you know, those people Xander is supposed to care about) who have suffered under Garon's rule.

[Tsuky]

So now we're expecting every action to work? People fail. It happens. Yes, Xander failed. What would you have done? Would you have openly opposed a man who would kill you without a second thought? Or would you have swallowed your pride and done what was told of you while also working on how to get out of doing it?

Who was the one who openly argued to keep Nohr!Corrin safe? Xander.

Who sneaked all the retainers out to Nohr!Corrin to help in their mission? Xander.

Who was the first of the children to side with you once the truth was revealed. Xander.

Yeah, he's not a good guy. He makes bad calls. But he does his best to help when it's needed most.

About the third point that you made within the spoilers:

[spoiler=] What would Xander have done if Garon wasn't conveniently a slime monster? What if he was just a terrible person? Based on Xander's actions in Birthright and Conquest, he wouldn't do a thing and would certainly not side with Corrin. That wouldn't make a very good story, would it? So we get the stupid slime mon contrivance to preserve Xander's noble character.

If Garon had just been a normal human being, the Nohrian people would surely have to suffer under his rule until his death since Xander is all talk when it comes to caring about the wellbeing of his people.

[spoiler=] Also, about his death in Birthright, although I felt bad for him, I can't really get behind it. Not only did he kill Elise and go on to not honor her last wish, but he also wanted to be killed by Corrin. Is it really a good idea to force your little brother/sister to live with the guilt of taking your life, when it didn't have to be this way?

Edited February 28, 2016 by Tsuky

[BruceLee]

About the third point that you made within the spoilers:

[spoiler=] What would Xander have done if Garon wasn't conveniently a slime monster? What if he was just a terrible person? Based on Xander's actions in Birthright and Conquest, he wouldn't do a thing and would certainly not side with Corrin. That wouldn't make a very good story, would it? So we get the stupid slime mon contrivance to preserve Xander's noble character.

If Garon had just been a normal human being, the Nohrian people would surely have to suffer under his rule until his death since Xander is all talk when it comes to caring about the wellbeing of his people.

This is so fucking true. Ugh, what a shitty move from the writers.

[spoiler=] Also, about his death in Birthright, although I felt bad for him, I can't really get behind it. Not only did he kill Elise and go on to not honor her last wish, but he also wanted to be killed by Corrin. Is it really a good idea to force your little brother/sister to live with the guilt of taking your life, when it didn't have to be this way?

And i agree with this aswell, except for the feeling bad for Xander part. Screw him. Elise deserved better than that.

Edited February 28, 2016 by BruceLee

[Loki Laufeyson]

Oddly I find Subaki worse... All his convo he shouts PERFECTION.... Literally none of his convos ever had him not mention his perfection... At least Cordelia was modest about it.... (Haven't got to play as kids yet so no judging Caledori well I can't anyways...) anyways I really dislike Saizo... Surprisingly.... Out of all the ninjas (counting his rip off of gauis son, Asugi) I disliked him the most... He wasn't that interesting for me... And I used him the least of the 4 ninjas in birthright... Kagero (dispite how late she comes) surpasses him in strength and I love her convos, especially the exotic paintings of hell that she creates XD

No, Tsubaki only applies his perfectionist behavior to himself. He doesnt not expect others to be perfect. Cordelia strove to be good and was praised by everyone around her. (she actually ate it up despite trying to seem humble.) Caeldori wants to be perfect and sorta..expects everyone else to be to her standards.

Caeldori, Rhajat, and Asugi.

As I like to lovingly call them, The Trifecta of Shitchildren.

lmao, i havent even met Rhajat and Asugi.

Nina is essentially a walking trope and an extreme take on yaoi fan girls who can't shut up about their porn and don't see why talking about it to strangers would be weird (Nina seems to be aware of that though, but hey). Kinu and Foleo are very much the same, just popular anime stereotypes and apparently common fetish fuel for men and women respectively.

Forrest is not exactly treated like hes just a trope tbh. Theres a pretty serious and lovely message to his character. No one treats him as if hes doing anything wrong, except Leo at first. And he gets told as a result. Forrest is treated with care, and isnt offensive in any way. In fact, theres more to him than just cute clothes. Nina, in localization is toned down a little and is presented to be more of a dreamer, than just a yaoi fetishist. While she has her moments of "daydreaming" about dudes, its not exactly as fujoshi as her Japanese self.

Why are you leaving Velouria out of the fetish list? Shes such a huge fetish, its almost like its smacking you across the face. Little Red Riding Hood? Check. Furry wolf girl? Check. Silly, yet innocent personality? Check. Omg my dude.