Diplomacy [1] (Life on hiatus until 27/3/16, Dorian in charge until then)

[Dorian]

Winter 1912

So far so good, it is now Spring 1913 and you got 51 hours to send me orders.

[Makaze]

I still concede... Any takers?

[Kriemhild]

This game has been dragging on for way too long.

I propose a "draw" where the sole victor is Italy. In other words, the final rankings would be:

1. Italy

2. Austria

3. France

4. England

5. Russia

6. Germany

7. Turkey

At this point, if the currently living nations (France and Austria) agree to this, then we can establish it as the outcome.

[BBM]

"I propose a draw where the only person who wins is me"

[Makaze]

I'm okay with that.

[Izhuark]

Well i would have preferred this game to end properly but i agree with Proto's proposition.

[Dorian]

Well, I would actually call it a game now but a agreement on a "draw" has to be concordant and Izhuark didn't agreed to it yet.

Now is Austria sitting on the edge of inactivity for a good while, so I turn this point around. He has 24 hours to officially object to this agreement, if he doesn't or even agrees then Italy is the winner.

[Dorian]

Oh well, cut by the guy agreeing, so forget what I said.^^;

Itally wins this game.

Now celebrate by having your Marcha Triunfal de Proto ~

[BBM]

I'm not salty I lost; I'm salty that Izhuark didn't play to win. What the fuck is this shit with Makaze and Izhuark surrendering and letting Proto win by himself?

[Refa]

don't play with sheep next time =)

[solrocknroll]

not really happy that you just laid down and let Proto have the high ground negotiation wise, but w/e

[Clarinets]

not really happy that you just laid down and let Proto have the high ground negotiation wise, but w/e

This.

The game was fun to watch otherwise, and it got me into Diplomacy so that was great!

[Makaze]

I lost interest a while ago, and I knew I had lost strategically. It was inevitable.

This saved Dorian the trouble of getting mad about not sending in orders.

[Sunwoo]

I propose a "draw" where the sole victor is Italy. In other words, the final rankings would be:

Proto, go consult a dictionary because you clearly do not know the definition of a draw.

[Kriemhild]

I'm not salty I lost; I'm salty that Izhuark didn't play to win. What the fuck is this shit with Makaze and Izhuark surrendering and letting Proto win by himself?

I was always cautious about France, and tried to ensure that Makaze wouldn't be able to get the better of me. Given Makaze's experiences in this game, I'm not surprised that he gave up on trying to beat me.

I will admit that Austria did have opportunities to royally screw me over, but I wouldn't have left such openings if I wasn't fairly confident that Izhuark wouldn't stab me. I did have contingency plans in case he did, but I would have been severely disadvantaged in such a struggle anyway. Either way, I planned my actions (both interactions and game moves) based on everyone else's states and managed to acquire victory. Sure, there may have been some luck involved, but I think this outcome is reasonable.

Proto, go consult a dictionary because you clearly do not know the definition of a draw.

There's a reason I put "draw" in quotes. I was using the Diplomacy terminology for "draw", which is when all living players agree on the same subset of players to be granted victory. In this case, the subset contained just one player (myself), so it was actually a solo victory, but it still fell under the game's "draw" mechanics (i.e. victory was settled by player agreement and not on in-game dominance).

[Sunwoo]

There's a reason I put "draw" in quotes. I was using the Diplomacy terminology for "draw", which is when all living players agree on the same subset of players to be granted victory. In this case, the subset contained just one player (myself), so it was actually a solo victory, but it still fell under the game's "draw" mechanics (i.e. victory was settled by player agreement and not on in-game dominance).

In which case, I'm going rephrase my statement to you really don't know how to do negotiations.

If you proposed a "draw" to me in which you were the sole winner I'd drag on the game longer just to spite you, and I almost wish Makaze did the same.

[Kriemhild]

In which case, I'm going rephrase my statement to you really don't know how to do negotiations.

I dunno, I think I handled the negotiations pretty well this game. I would likely have been wiped out otherwise. I was playing as freaking Italy this game!

If you proposed a "draw" to me in which you were the sole winner I'd drag on the game longer just to spite you, and I almost wish Makaze did the same.

I don't think you're quite aware of Makaze's (and Izhuark's) perspective at this point in the game. I wouldn't have proposed it if I wasn't confident that it would work out well.

It's easy to say that you wouldn't have done the same as Makaze if you were playing, but well, you weren't the one playing the game, so I don't think you'd be able to properly appreciate Makaze's experiences in this game so far and the state that he was in by the time this happened.

I'm not claiming that I'm an amazing player who only won through superior skill or anything, but I don't think it's very appropriate for other people to criticize the players (me, Makaze, or anyone else) for their decisions without having a clear grasp of the situation they were in. All the living players accepted the outcome, so we really should just leave it at that.

[BBM]

You (and Izhuark) can say what you want but the point is that Izhuark was your bitch all game, long after it was incredibly obvious you had no plan to tie with anyone, and most importantly, didn't try to win. He didn't need to backstab you (although it probably would have been the best move). You guys easily could have made a deal to not attack each other until Makaze had been eliminated and go from there.

I'm not really mad at Makaze (for that, anyways) because he was going to lose no matter what.

Edited May 20, 2016 by BBM

[Excellen Browning]

As an observer, I agree Izhuark played really poorly, and he only has to thank his loss to himself. He had all the cards to win in his hand around the time BBM was getting killed. Proto had left himself almost completely undefended, Anatolia and the Balkans were his for the taking, Proto's armies tied up in England and mostly fleets regardless. And all the while, izhuark had enough armies to tie up Makaze if need be.

But regardless, Proto's gambit paid off for him and he deserves the win for it.

[Kriemhild]

I still think you guys are being a bit hard on Izhuark. It was his first game, and given the type of player he is, along with his nature and experiences, I don't think he would have been able to pull off a first-place victory that easily. If it was a game between seven experienced veterans, then yes, I'll agree that Austria played really badly. But I think for Izhuark's position, it was reasonable for him to pursue second place and hand me the victory. Well, okay, yeah, my dialogues with Izhuark were a bit manipulative, but you can't really blame him for falling for it.

Now that Izhuark, Makaze, etc all have some experience on how a game turns out, I expect they'd play differently in future games. I am quite looking forward to those!

Also, before I forget, I would like to thank Dorian for managing the game until the end. He's not the one who started the game, and only volunteered as a temporary host. But when Life didn't return, Dorian continued to manage the game for our sake, which I really appreciate. Thanks, Dorian!

[solrocknroll]

I think Izhuark did fine all things considered because this was SF's first Diplomacy and it lasted a while.

I do really wish you'd have let everyone win with you though Proto. I think Izhuark and Makaze should be recognized too.

[Clarinets]

Makaze betrayed both of them, it's perfectly fine not letting them in the draw IMO.

[Kriemhild]

I'm not a fan of proposing draws for first place, unless it's like, against a player who grew equally strong and the game ultimately boiled down to a one-on-one duel that I perceived as having a roughly even matchup, at which point I'd propose a draw instead of praying that luck is on my side. But otherwise, if it's something like coaxing a player to assist you by promising to share the ultimate victory, I consider that to be hurting the integrity of the game, where you would expect each nation to play for their own solo victory, keeping it as a fair battleground centered around diplomatic relations.

In this particular case, I believed that as long as France and Austria don't team up, I would have been able to wipe them both out, so it wouldn't have made sense for me to propose a draw with either or both of them. To put it another way, I don't want it to become a thing that playing like the way France and Austria did in this game would lead to being at first-place. It wouldn't be fair to BBM, for example, if his defeat was basically set up by a 3-nation alliance that agree to win as a trio and they never backstab each other. That kind of thing would just ruin the enjoyment from playing the game.

fyi though I didn't want to be tied with anyone, I don't mind if other players tie in lower rankings. Not wanting to decide between the two, I proposed to have Austria and France tie for second place at some point. France replied by attacking us both. The rest is history.

[BBM]

You know what's most against the integrity of the game? Not trying to win. I don't think Izhuark would have won if he'd tried fighting you, but the point is that he didn't try.

I also wouldn't have cared if you guys did a 3-nation alliance. I had the opportunity to do it with Makaze before you did and chose not to because I couldn't trust him. That's how it works; and if I get beaten by an alliance then I didn't play well enough and get strong enough allies on my side.

[Dorian]

Well well, I think that Izhuark problem wasn't his lack of experience but more his lack of attention but he was hardly the only one. Seriously, stuff like that happens in every game I played but I can't tell if I ever hosted a game before where I had to wait for missing or belated orders that often.^^;

However, the more interestin question is, will there be another game?