I feel like Fates just dropped the ball (Conquest Chapter 15 spoilers)

[joshcja]

yeah the black knight was pretty much worth every other enemy on that side of the board combined, and ike was cannon stronger, and he got multiple free units stronger than he was. Including godsdamned mufasa.

It was like a board with one queen and infinite pawns facing down retarded cousin ted's board of 20 superqueens made of 17 queens duct taped into a tower

Probably the "worst" odds canonicly are endgame (new) mystery of the emblem/(i hate to say it) awakening.

Edit: mystery/awakening was a case of gameplay matching plot....badly as the hero's of both games were effectively going on a suicide mission...that anyone half decent at the game flat out 1 turn rolls.

Edited February 25, 2016 by joshcja

[Dark Sage]

People do realize that Xander, Camilla, and Leo would have friends and political allies in the nobility right? So even if they did defect and rebel against Garon, they'd probably receive some support.

Plus you have the Ice Tribe and Chevalier rebelling, so it's not like it'd be impossible for Corrin to find allies and support should he choose to rebel. The Chevalier resistance also receives support from the Hoshidan army, so presumably, they'd also covertly aid other such operations too.

That doesn't mean much when Ike has the closest thing to literal Superheroes on his side(Laguz King/Queens) who are important for being powerful and Yune has exactly the powers they need to prevent being instantly wiped. It only speaks of how at that point in time Ike's forces grew so powerful that only a god could possibly challenge them at that point hence how "all odds" weren't against Ike.

The Laguz Royals are powerful but canonically, they're definitely meant to be weaker than Aeshera since they're noticeably afraid or nervous about facing them. Plus Ashera has all of these powers that are massive advantages over Ike's forces. Plus it's not like Ashera was lacking in her own powerful forces too, sine she has Dheg, the dragons, Beyonce Knowles, and Sephiran and she herself is quite strong too.

Regardless, writing off a complaint about a bad plot element with "well other game has [insert bad plot element here] so you can't complain" is faulty reasoning, since it'd also be bad in that other game.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Dark Sage

[Baldrick]

I don't think you're representing that accurately. Ashera has Begnion Army, Black Knight, Sephiran, Dhenginsea and the Dragons and her own goddess powers. Ike has only the most elite forces of Crimea's Royal Knights, Begnion's Holy Knight commanders, Daein's general, Greil Mercenaries and three to four Laguz Kings/Queens and their top commanders and one half of the exact same goddess he's fighting. In some regards it's arguable by part 4 Ike's forces are superior in all but number not even including himself. By the time Ike reaches the tower, he has together plot-wise the most powerful, legendary or seasoned forces across the entire series and he's backing a god into a corner.

Yune has been sealed away, and is a lot less powerful than Ashera. Ashera has empowered the entire Begnion Army to the point that Laguz Kings find them tough, Yune can only bless Ike at first. Ashera turned the entire world to stone in one hit, and it's a matter of time before she petrifies the party as well.

Far from being backed into a corner, Ashera is in her home ground, where her forces revive indefinitely and she's handed out stronger blessings to her most powerful soldiers.

Any advantage in quality of troops they have inside the tower is negated by the Dragons, whose strength is unparalleled, plotwise at least.

Don't know much about Nohr yet, but I can't imagine Garon is harder to beat than Ashera.

The siblings are only loyal only sibling they really need to convince is Xander; Camilla is crazy for Corrin and the younger siblings would take the word of their elders.

Corrin doesn't even attempt to convince them; and unless I'm missing something, he has literally nothing to lose by trying.

[saisymbolic]

People due realize that Xander, Camilla, and Leo would have friends and political allies in the nobility right? So even if they did defect and rebel against Garon, they'd probably receive some support.

Plus you have the Ice Tribe and Chevalier rebelling, so it's not like it'd be impossible for Corrin to find allies and support should he choose to rebel. The Chevalier resistance also receives support from the Hoshidan army, so presumably, they'd also covertly aid other such operations too.

The Laguz Royals are powerful but canonically, they're definitely meant to be weaker than Aeshera since they're noticeably afraid or nervous about facing them. Plus Ashera has all of these powers that are massive advantages over Ike's forces. Plus it's not like Ashera was lacking in her own powerful forces too, sine she has Dheg, the dragons, Beyonce Knowles, and Sephiran and she herself is quite strong too.

Regardless, writing off a complaint about a bad plot element with "well other game has [insert bad plot element here] so you can't complain" is faulty reasoning, since it'd also be bad in that other game.

...Did you just refer to the Black Knight as Beyonce Knowles?

[BrightBow]

That doesn't mean much when Ike has the closest thing to literal Superheroes on his side(Laguz King/Queens) who are important for being powerful and Yune has exactly the powers they need to prevent being instantly wiped. It only speaks of how at that point in time Ike's forces grew so powerful that only a god could possibly challenge them at that point hence how "all odds" weren't against Ike.

How powerful Ike's group is, is not all that relevant. They won in the end, yes. But it's not like they knew in advance that they could actually succeed, that they as mere mortals would actually be able to challenge the divine. And they would have never found out if they simply decided that the situation was hopeless and and there is no need to even try. Which is the context that matters here since we are talking about Fates and Kamui and his personal preference of invading an innocent nation instead of challenging an evil king.

Ultimately Ike's group won because they didn't give up. Because in the face of overwhelming odds, for the sake of their families, their friends and all the people of Tellius, they were willing to give everything they had to offer. It didn't matter to them how strong they were or powerful their opponent would turn out to be because they were willing to fight until they would either win or die.

Edited February 25, 2016 by BrightBow

[arvilino]

The Laguz Royals are powerful but canonically, they're definitely meant to be weaker than Aeshera since they're noticeably afraid or nervous about facing them. Plus Ashera has all of these powers that are massive advantages over Ike's forces. Plus it's not like Ashera was lacking in her own powerful forces too, sine she has Dheg, the dragons, Beyonce Knowles, and Sephiran and she herself is quite strong too.

Regardless, writing off a complaint about a bad plot element with "well other game has [insert bad plot element here] so you can't complain" is faulty reasoning, since it'd also be bad in that other game.

Sorry but I wasn't talking about quality at all. I was only speaking about how the odds are represented in a way in Radiant Dawn that only a god could possibly stack up to Ike. In fact I haven't mentioned my opinion in regards to Fates which is that despite only acting as a King, Garon is able to apply a lot more dominion over Corrin in his/her circumstances than Ashera can over Ike(due to the massive build up of power in his favour) which puts Corrin into a position where the odds are more against him/her to succeed.

People due realize that Xander, Camilla, and Leo would have friends and political allies in the nobility right? So even if they did defect and rebel against Garon, they'd probably receive some support.

Plus you have the Ice Tribe and Chevalier rebelling, so it's not like it'd be impossible for Corrin to find allies and support should he choose to rebel. The Chevalier resistance also receives support from the Hoshidan army, so presumably, they'd also covertly aid other such operations too.

Those rebellions are quashed by a handful of people(Ice Tribe) and a relatively small force(Chevalier despite having Hoshidan support) both in a single battle. An example in Fire Emblem where the main character successfully rebels is Mystery of the Emblem, Marth was able to rebel against the Akanenian Empire by the merit of having his own Kingdom and gathering together allies and forces built on the trust he built during the previous war against the Doluna empire. He didn't just suddenly with no links or history with those people have any force interested in rebelling rallying under his banner. Even within Nohr would Corrin's siblings really have the same effect and be able to do it behind Garon's back especially when they do Garon's dirtywork even if they try to lessen it would impact their reputation or their willingness to actually work with Hoshido.

I don't know if any of the characters in Nohr are in a position where they would or could lead a rebellion or have a reputation that would have any rebels trust them(other than Corrin having the Yato).

[Pretty_Handsome]

That's because they were rushed instead of being touched upon.

We don't even meet the Flame Tribe in game beyond Rinka.

[mewyeon]

There are definitely different ways they could have approached this in the game, instead of having Corrin and Aqua decide 'HEY LET'S INVADE HOSHIDO AND CONVINCE GARON TO SIT ON THAT THRONE'.

However, having Corrin directly kill Garon would solve nothing. It would be perceived as treason, obviously, and Corrin would be arrested or executed at once. Even the royal siblings would not be able to help him, and if they did, they would be arrested or executed as well. They cannot fight off a massive horde of royal soldiers with just the five of them.

[Rapier]

Conquest railroads Team Corrin into invading Hoshido let's be honest.

While this makes the writing of Conquest problematic, I think it could still be good despite it. If Nohr and Garon had any redeeming quality to sympathize with (say, Nohr going through poverty issues like FE4's Thracia, and Garon being like Vigarde and, to an extent, Zephiel) and the royals followed their father for reasons other than loyalty/fear, like Arionne followed Travant and his ideals out of admiration for his father and for the sake of his nation, then it'd be more reasonable to side with Nohr and go through with the war. If Hoshido wasn't the obvious good guys' side it'd also help.

[Captain Karnage]

i really don't know how to say this but....

If you think about it, a quick invasion is going to cost fewer lives than a long drawn out war

[Pixelman]

That's because they were rushed instead of being touched upon.

We don't even meet the Flame Tribe in game beyond Rinka.

Maybe we don't meet the flame tribe because it isn't important to narrative?

[Dark Sage]

Sorry but I wasn't talking about quality at all. I was only speaking about how the odds are represented in a way in Radiant Dawn that only a god could possibly stack up to Ike. In fact I haven't mentioned my opinion in regards to Fates which is that despite only acting as a King, Garon is able to apply a lot more dominion over Corrin in his/her circumstances than Ashera can over Ike(due to the massive build up of power in his favour) which puts Corrin into a position where the odds are more against him/her to succeed.

Those rebellions are quashed by a handful of people(Ice Tribe) and a relatively small force(Chevalier despite having Hoshidan support) both in a single battle. An example in Fire Emblem where the main character successfully rebels is Mystery of the Emblem, Marth was able to rebel against the Akanenian Empire by the merit of having his own Kingdom and gathering together allies and forces built on the trust he built during the previous war against the Doluna empire. He didn't just suddenly with no links or history with those people have any force interested in rebelling rallying under his banner. Even within Nohr would Corrin's siblings really have the same effect and be able to do it behind Garon's back especially when they do Garon's dirtywork even if they try to lessen it would impact their reputation or their willingness to actually work with Hoshido.

I don't know if any of the characters in Nohr are in a position where they would or could lead a rebellion or have a reputation that would have any rebels trust them(other than Corrin having the Yato).

Altea was also invaded by Akaneia early on, so Marth was completely cut off from most of his resources and manpower. And while it's true Corrin wouldn't have much political clout to gain allies, his siblings do because they've actually had experience dealing with Nohrian nobles and have actually been outside their castle. Clearly not everyone is on Garon's side and clearly there are people disgruntled enough about Garon to want to rebel, so it's not like it would be impossible for Corrin to get help. And yes, the Yato could be a big factor in getting the rebels to trust them because of the legend associated with it (which the Hoshidans believe in).

I mean Ogre Battle's protagonist does just what people have been advocating Corrin to do, betray his kingdom and join the rebels he initially fought. And he's in a lesser ranked position than Corrin too and no royal siblings, so he had an even harder time finding allies. The rebellion he joined didn't initially trust him either and only let him perform small, relatively unimportant operations and he had to earn their trust. It wasn't the best (it was a bit too quick), but I could see that happen for Corrin and his siblings and it wouldn't be too unbelievable.

(btw, to people advocating a quick invasion over a rebellion, an invasion usually takes a lot of time in a world with medieval level technology. The exception to this is when the invasion is a surprise, like in the previous games and when the invading force is much stronger than the defending nation's. Hoshido is both prepared for Nohr and it's military is not weak, so a 'quick invasion' would be pretty much impossible, or at least it wouldn't go as smoothly as it does ingame.)

[saisymbolic]

I am ignorant. What was the importance of the rebellion in Chevelle or whatever Scarlet's nation in terms of the narrative?

Edited February 25, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[ghast]

Nowadays I'm actually torn on how I feel about chapter 15.

On one hand, YES, aqua should have had the foresight to think of a less stupid plan than just to continue what they're doing and bulldozing through Hoshido. At the very least, letting the siblings know would have been for their best interest I think. Like from a moral standpoint on Kamui, if my step-siblings were explicitly concerned about Garon's craziness kamui should be obligated to tell them the truth. Even if they wouldn't believe him initially, perhaps showing them the invisible kingdom would be convincing enough?

On the other, what exactly is the alternative to NOT fighting Hoshido? Sure, you can get the siblings on your side, and ultimately the vanguard you command and the retainers for the siblings. But how powerful are you against Nohr?

You certainly can't fight Garon yourself, and even with just a crystal ball is it really enough to do anything?

even when slime!garon appears, the siblings are STILL reluctant to fight him until Kamui convinces them to. Or when Xander is like "nvm, kamui's right" (im pretty sure that's what happened, its been a few months)

Maybe Kamui can convince his Hoshidan siblings and the Nohrian siblings to truce up. He seems to be the glue that holds them together. Based on what I remember from the chapter where they have dinner together (is that before or after chapter 15?).

But I'm curious, would the Nohrian siblings even war with their own country? Would the Hoshidan's back up the Nohrians? Because I doubt that the Hoshidans would try to show any mercy towards the Nohrians like Kamui tries to do (but I guess that goes both ways).

I could imagine kamui leading his vanguard around nohr and strategically taking over big time territories in Nohr. While the hoshidan siblings take on Nohr head on, perhaps.

Assuming Nohr siblings and Hoshido siblings take on Nohr together, I feel like Nohr's army wouldn't have a chance, really. The strongest fighters are like all on one team.

EDIT: This may not actually work. Since Anankos would probably summon a buttload of mystery people to kill things? idk

And what's Xander supposed to do after he goes civil war mode anyway? I can't help but wonder if the new king of Nohr would be well received by reentering his home country to take it over and stuff, provided he'd actually believe the crystal ball and stuff in the first place.

Maybe I'm not looking into this deep enough. But I think the best of both worlds if IntSys wanted to stick with what they did in Conquest would be if Aqua and Kamui tried to at least come up with a plan and discuss it with Leon, who is the only other person able to see the truth anyway. Even if they ultimately decide to persevere with taking out Hoshido, it would probably yield less damage than getting Nohr's innocent civs involved, which seems to be what Kamui is trying to avoid in the first place (innocent deaths in general).

Its a kind of lesser of two evils thing, I guess?

And if Kamui got treated like an asshole he is by Hinoka and Sakura. Dude's a bit responsible for the death of her brothers and stuff.

in the end, still on the fence about this stuff. I like the discussion going on here though

Edited February 25, 2016 by ghast

[NekoKnight]

People should keep in mind that Hoshido CAN beat Nohr, and that's exactly what happens in Birthright. The single shred of credibility Azura and Kamui's plan has in Conquest is completely blown out the water by Birthright. If the forces of Hoshido could defeat Garon with Kamui's help, think about how much easier it would be if they had the Nohrian siblings and their loyalists fighting with them?

The contrivances that are required to keep the Nohr plot going are one thing but I'm also bothered by how BORING it makes the story. Kamui doesn't consider his options and suffers the same, lame cycle of "try to be merciful, Garon kills everyone anyway".

[Alazen]

(btw, to people advocating a quick invasion over a rebellion, an invasion usually takes a lot of time in a world with medieval level technology. The exception to this is when the invasion is a surprise, like in the previous games and when the invading force is much stronger than the defending nation's. Hoshido is both prepared for Nohr and it's military is not weak, so a 'quick invasion' would be pretty much impossible, or at least it wouldn't go as smoothly as it does ingame.)

Hey, Corrin's forces can somehow beat armies without killing anybody so who knows what they can do?

[ghast]

People should keep in mind that Hoshido CAN beat Nohr, and that's exactly what happens in Birthright. The single shred of credibility Azura and Kamui's plan has in Conquest is completely blown out the water by Birthright. If the forces of Hoshido could defeat Garon with Kamui's help, think about how much easier it would be if they had the Nohrian siblings and their loyalists fighting with them?

The contrivances that are required to keep the Nohr plot going are one thing but I'm also bothered by how BORING it makes the story. Kamui doesn't consider his options and suffers the same, lame cycle of "try to be merciful, Garon kills everyone anyway".

Is that a fair point though? Its not like in this reality that Kamui knows that Hoshido can rival Nohr. Especially right now, when Kamui has beaten Hoshidan siblings like twice and have been actively beating hoshido and stuff.

The momentum is in Nohr's favor right now. Sure Hoshido could defeat Nohr at the beginning, but right now Hoshido is losing.

[NekoKnight]

Is that a fair point though? Its not like in this reality that Kamui knows that Hoshido can rival Nohr. Especially right now, when Kamui has beaten Hoshidan siblings like twice and have been actively beating hoshido and stuff.

The momentum is in Nohr's favor right now. Sure Hoshido could defeat Nohr at the beginning, but right now Hoshido is losing.

He doesn't know that Hoshido can win, but he doesn't know for certain that they are guaranteed to lose either. It can't be argued either way how Kamui should interpret the probable winner because he's an extremely sheltered prince who barely knows Nohr, let alone Hoshido's capacity to fight. As for Kamui's victory over the Hoshidan siblings, isn't that a bit biased because he's applying his own strength to defeat them? If he wasn't helping defeat them they'd have a better chance at winning!

Kamui is the Jon Snow of Fates. He knows nothing and shouldn't be trusted to make informed choices.

[ghast]

He doesn't know that Hoshido can win, but he doesn't know for certain that they are guaranteed to lose either. It can't be argued either way how Kamui should interpret the probable winner because he's an extremely sheltered prince who barely knows Nohr, let alone Hoshido's capacity to fight. As for Kamui's victory over the Hoshidan siblings, isn't that a bit biased because he's applying his own strength to defeat them? If he wasn't helping defeat them they'd have a better chance at winning!

Kamui is the Jon Snow of Fates. He knows nothing and shouldn't be trusted to make informed choices.

I think at this point Kamui should be more confident in his winning potential than their winning potential.

I think at this point in the story he should have a general idea of nohr and hoshido's capacity to fight. Yes, he's been extremely sheltered but he's now been exposed to Hinoka and Takumi. who literally wanted to kill kamui and tried his hardest to do it, so that has to mean something.

I mean, yeah he is applying his own strength to defeat them. But in this reality he's defeated them and can realistically continue on with the momentum he's picked up instead of stopping completely and hoping that everyone will believe him and not think he's bullshitting Nohr or is not trying to trick Hoshido.

side note: does Kamui even care about why Nohr is at war in the first place? I can't even remember him saying anything at all resembling the concern about Nohr's survival as a country. I barely even remember if Garon mentions why they are fighting. like I know its for land and resources but sheesh

[Abvora]

People should keep in mind that Hoshido CAN beat Nohr, and that's exactly what happens in Birthright. The single shred of credibility Azura and Kamui's plan has in Conquest is completely blown out the water by Birthright. If the forces of Hoshido could defeat Garon with Kamui's help, think about how much easier it would be if they had the Nohrian siblings and their loyalists fighting with them?

The contrivances that are required to keep the Nohr plot going are one thing but I'm also bothered by how BORING it makes the story. Kamui doesn't consider his options and suffers the same, lame cycle of "try to be merciful, Garon kills everyone anyway".

Well, consider how it happens. Hoshido wins, yes, but that's because Corrin, Ryoma and Takumi take a crack squad of soldiers and slip through Nohrian defenses to assassinate Garon. When they receive war reports from Yukimura, they hear about how the Hoshidan forces are being constantly pushed back. And on Revelation, despite neither side having Corrin, Hoshido is still the losing side--Ryoma and Takumi still go missing in battle, Yukimura still talks about Nohrian forces marching on the capital, etc. Hoshido just doesn't have the strength in numbers to repel Nohr, that's why Mikoto needed to put up the barrier in the first place.

So really, no, I don't think Hoshido could have beaten Nohr without Corrin.

[NekoKnight]

Well, consider how it happens. Hoshido wins, yes, but that's because Corrin, Ryoma and Takumi take a crack squad of soldiers and slip through Nohrian defenses to assassinate Garon. When they receive war reports from Yukimura, they hear about how the Hoshidan forces are being constantly pushed back. And on Revelation, despite neither side having Corrin, Hoshido is still the losing side--Ryoma and Takumi still go missing in battle, Yukimura still talks about Nohrian forces marching on the capital, etc. Hoshido just doesn't have the strength in numbers to repel Nohr, that's why Mikoto needed to put up the barrier in the first place.

So really, no, I don't think Hoshido could have beaten Nohr without Corrin.

But they win. Because Kamui helped them win.

People say "Kamui can't just sneak in and assassinate Garon!" But that's exactly what Hoshido does in Birthright.

In Conquest, Kamui's plan is: 1. Obey Garon, invade Hoshido. 2. Defeat Garon. In Birthright, they just skip step one and go straight to defeating Garon. I think I like their plan better.

Conquest is just barely holding itself together when played in a vacuum but it all falls apart after playing Birthright. Conquest even reminds you how you shouldn't have picked that rout.

[Pretty_Handsome]

Maybe we don't meet the flame tribe because it isn't important to narrative?

They're said yo be done if the best fighters in the land and are crucial allies of Hoshido. They should have shown up at some point.

[Namarid]

Wasn't it mentioned in the beginning of the game that the royals are way stronger than any common solider. If that's the case then they wouldn't of had that hard of a time against the royal army. In addition I think it's also stated that xander is the strongest solider in nohr, so corrin would of had some strong allies to attack garon with and it isn't as implausible as many people think. Granted they would of needed to convince xander which wouldn't be hard to do if they characterised him better.

[Fyras4]

But they win. Because Kamui helped them win.

People say "Kamui can't just sneak in and assassinate Garon!" But that's exactly what Hoshido does in Birthright.

In Conquest, Kamui's plan is: 1. Obey Garon, invade Hoshido. 2. Defeat Garon. In Birthright, they just skip step one and go straight to defeating Garon. I think I like their plan better.

Conquest is just barely holding itself together when played in a vacuum but it all falls apart after playing Birthright. Conquest even reminds you how you shouldn't have picked that rout.

Since I haven't played either game yet, I can't make a proper critique about the story but from what I spoiled myself about the story, the whole Birthright idea can only work because of how its executed.

Think about it: In Birthright, Corrin has all this allies/loyal soldiers/siblings on his side, he just doesn't go all hardcore all of the sudden and tramples the Nohr soldier resistance he faces by his own (unless we are playing with stats because then I stand corrected).

While in Nohr, the only ones that are loyal to Corrin and Corrin only (his siblings not withstanding/not including Marx) are Joker, Felicia (and perhaps Flora), Kaze, Gunther, Aqua, Mozume and Shura, while the others are loyal soldiers/mercenaries/etc. of Nohr: I get the feeling that if the siblings (especially Marx) found out about him/her wanting to assassinate the King, they'll probably oppose them; if that happens, Corrin already loses a lot of soldiers and support to carry out plan B in the 'Grand Plan to Kill King Garon-dorf'. Taking the whole 'the Crystal Ball told Aqua, who told Corrin, who told Joker' business out of the equation, the siblings would

have no reason to see anything 'right' about Corrin coming to kill their Father; they'll probably do anything in their power to stop Corrin; the worst they could do is put him/her down or capture them while his allies are executed.

But that's just my idea though...I'll probably get a better idea of the circumstances once I actually play the game.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Fyras4

[NekoKnight]

While in Nohr, the only ones that are loyal to Corrin and Corrin only (his siblings not withstanding/not including Marx) are Joker, Felicia (and perhaps Flora), Kaze, Gunther, Aqua, Mozume and Shura, while the others are loyal soldiers/mercenaries/etc. of Nohr: I get the feeling that if the siblings (especially Marx) found out about him/her wanting to assassinate the King, they'll probably oppose them; if that happens, Corrin already loses a lot of soldiers and support to carry out plan B in the 'Grand Plan to Kill King Garon-dorf'. Taking the whole 'the Crystal Ball told Aqua, who told Corrin, who told Joker' business out of the equation, the siblings would

have no reason to see anything 'right' about Corrin coming to kill their Father; they'll probably do anything in their power to stop Corrin; the worst they could do is put him/her down or capture them while his allies are executed.

I guess it's all speculation. We can't really say for certain who'd be on Kamui's side if he did try to start a rebellion/assassinate Garon. I'm of the opinion that if he took the forces loyal to him in Nohr and coordinated an attack plan with Hoshido, they could have pulled it off. If only he considered his options before deciding to invade his homeland.

Edited February 25, 2016 by NekoKnight