So why exactly do people call Conquest Corrin an idiot?(Conquest spoilers)

[Emblem Blade]

I think the Hoshido siblings in general, save Takumi, are all far too trusting of Corrin, but it's not explained why. During the duel, Ryoma probably could tell that Corrin isn't actually the kind of person who would murder his own sibling, and so Ryoma decides to commit seppuku both as a fulfillment of his code (having been captured by the enemy) and to allow Corrin to fulfill whatever plan he has. Corrin's plan is stupid, but I can understand why Ryoma decided to trust him, since that seems to be the way the Hoshido siblings are (once again, except for Takumi).

Half of the Nohr Royal Family trusts Corrin in the Birthright route even though they are their enemy, it happens after they defeats them (Leo and Camille). Elise also trusts Corrin to help bring back peace even though it isn't easy. Xander believes Corrin's words before he dies. Arguably, Corrin's actions are just as good as they are bad in both routes if not every route due to their morals. Shifting blame to the other siblings means that you aren't fully acknowledging that Corrin is the reason why they are so trusting (Nohr in Conquest and Hoshido in Birthright). Regarding the Hoshido Siblings, Corrin was originally raised in Hoshido, not Nohr, they Hoshido Royal Family knew him before the Nohr Royal Family did. The fact that all of them (minus Takumi until after you get him in Hoshido as a playable unit or until after his final defeat in Conquest) show that they actually do support them means that both sides in general are too trusting of them. Corrin is the focal points for why both sides trust him (or not). If Corrin wasn't born, then things might have been different.

[Seanp12]

Half of the Nohr Royal Family trusts Corrin in the Birthright route even though they are their enemy, it happens after they defeats them (Leo and Camille). Elise also trusts Corrin to help bring back peace even though it isn't easy. Xander believes Corrin's words before he dies. Arguably, Corrin's actions are just as good as they are bad in both routes if not every route due to their morals. Shifting blame to the other siblings means that you aren't fully acknowledging that Corrin is the reason why they are so trusting (Nohr in Conquest and Hoshido in Birthright). Regarding the Hoshido Siblings, Corrin was originally raised in Hoshido, not Nohr, they Hoshido Royal Family knew him before the Nohr Royal Family did. The fact that all of them (minus Takumi until after you get him in Hoshido as a playable unit or until after his final defeat in Conquest) show that they actually do support them means that both sides in general are too trusting of them. Corrin is the focal points for why both sides trust him (or not). If Corrin wasn't born, then things might have been different.

True, but Camilla's trust is limited (after all, you still fight her a second time, even though she believes you), and you encounter Leo twice before you actually fight him, and he doesn't realize he trusts you until he finds that he also can't kill you (unless it's gameplay, in which case he has no problem doing that). The Hoshidans, particularly Hinoka, never seem intent on actually hurting Corrin. Camilla, Xander, and Leo all seem to make completely earnest attempts to kill Corrin in Birthright however. (Camilla in Cheve, but not in Windmire; Leo in the graveyard, although he can't actually bring himself to do the deed; and Xander until after Elise dies.) Ryoma only decides to kill him when he thinks that Corrin killed Hinoka, and of course, Takumi is the continual exception.

[Emblem Blade]

True, but Camilla's trust is limited (after all, you still fight her a second time, even though she believes you), and you encounter Leo twice before you actually fight him, and he doesn't realize he trusts you until he finds that he also can't kill you (unless it's gameplay, in which case he has no problem doing that). The Hoshidans, particularly Hinoka, never seem intent on actually hurting Corrin. Camilla, Xander, and Leo all seem to make completely earnest attempts to kill Corrin in Birthright however. (Camilla in Cheve, but not in Windmire; Leo in the graveyard, although he can't actually bring himself to do the deed; and Xander until after Elise dies.) Ryoma only decides to kill him when he thinks that Corrin killed Hinoka, and of course, Takumi is the continual exception.

Takumi is Takumi, his personality issue makes it hard for him to trust about anyone, until you can get sense into him. You realize that it's hard to get sense into someone who doesn't listen to their older brother (Ryoma) for a long time. Camille's trust is mostly directed towards Corrin, evident since Chapter 1. Leo is doing just what he thinks is right (same with Xander) and Xander is doing his duty to his kingdom (even if it isn't the best approach). Corrin is a focal point as they seem to start the trouble between the two sides (Birthright and Conquest) when they have to make that choice in Chapter 6.

[Seanp12]

Takumi is Takumi, his personality issue makes it hard for him to trust about anyone, until you can get sense into him. You realize that it's hard to get sense into someone who doesn't listen to their older brother (Ryoma) for a long time. Camille's trust is mostly directed towards Corrin, evident since Chapter 1. Leo is doing just what he thinks is right (same with Xander) and Xander is doing his duty to his kingdom (even if it isn't the best approach). Corrin is a focal point as they seem to start the trouble between the two sides (Birthright and Conquest) when they have to make that choice in Chapter 6.

I don't see how that makes Corrin the focal point of their trust, though. Camilla doesn't trust him--or rather, she doesn't trust him to know what's best for himself until after she's beaten and she has to listen to him explain. Even then, she still fights him again because she believes that she knows what's best for him more than he does. Leo's chapter makes it very clear that, while he is doing what he thinks is right, he doesn't trust Corrin, which is why he tries to kill him. When he finds he can't do that, he essentially surrenders his trust, since he realizes he can't fight Corrin. And Leo still doesn't fully trust Corrin until he uses the gem that Azura gave him. Xander's case is a little tougher, since his family's breakdown has heavily clouded his judgment, resulting in his suicide by cop. It's never completely clear whether Xander trusts him or not, though he seems to do so once he's about to die. Of all siblings save Takumi, however, Xander is clearly the one who is most willing to kill Corrin even when he isn't being deceived like Ryoma was.

I can't quite understand what your point is. Your first reply seemed like a counterpoint to mine, but the last one I can't quite get what you're going for.

[NekoKnight]

True, but Camilla's trust is limited (after all, you still fight her a second time, even though she believes you), and you encounter Leo twice before you actually fight him, and he doesn't realize he trusts you until he finds that he also can't kill you (unless it's gameplay, in which case he has no problem doing that). The Hoshidans, particularly Hinoka, never seem intent on actually hurting Corrin. Camilla, Xander, and Leo all seem to make completely earnest attempts to kill Corrin in Birthright however. (Camilla in Cheve, but not in Windmire; Leo in the graveyard, although he can't actually bring himself to do the deed; and Xander until after Elise dies.) Ryoma only decides to kill him when he thinks that Corrin killed Hinoka, and of course, Takumi is the continual exception.

It feels like the sibling relationships should be reversed. Why do the Nohrian siblings distrust Kamui to the point that they're willing to KILL him? They've known him since he was a young child and his reason for defecting (that whole, "Garon tried to murder me" thing) are perfectly clear. Conversely, the Hoshidan siblings, sans Takumi, trust Kamui, even though time and time again it's shown he's their enemy. A merciful enemy, but an enemy nonetheless. They never seem to fight him with the intention of killing him, even though he's playing an active role in the invasion of their country.

Edited March 8, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Emblem Blade]

I don't see how that makes Corrin the focal point of their trust, though. Camilla doesn't trust him--or rather, she doesn't trust him to know what's best for himself until after she's beaten and she has to listen to him explain. Even then, she still fights him again because she believes that she knows what's best for him more than he does. Leo's chapter makes it very clear that, while he is doing what he thinks is right, he doesn't trust Corrin, which is why he tries to kill him. When he finds he can't do that, he essentially surrenders his trust, since he realizes he can't fight Corrin. And Leo still doesn't fully trust Corrin until he uses the gem that Azura gave him. Xander's case is a little tougher, since his family's breakdown has heavily clouded his judgment, resulting in his suicide by cop. It's never completely clear whether Xander trusts him or not, though he seems to do so once he's about to die. Of all siblings save Takumi, however, Xander is clearly the one who is most willing to kill Corrin even when he isn't being deceived like Ryoma was.

I can't quite understand what your point is. Your first reply seemed like a counterpoint to mine, but the last one I can't quite get what you're going for.

Even if it wasn't Anakos' using Corrin as a gamble to start it, Corrin is one of the spear reasons for why one side (the nation you didn't ally with) will try to get rid of the other (the one you chose to be with). Also, Leo lied that he didn't trust Corrin because he couldn't find the will to say so. Xander says that he will 'kill' Corrin for trying to attack the king, not just for deceiving his other two siblings. Maybe I should have said that the siblings of the side you didn't side with still love Corrin no matter what they do just that it's hard for them to say so given their circumstances that they are finding themselves in instead of saying they still trust in them.

I don't tend to make my arguments or responses confusing, I try to avoid it. The reason Xander said that Corrin is weak in the Birthright route is that they're so naive and innocent in a war where morals shouldn't exist, in a war, you need to be strong and not take so many risks. In Conquest, that line was given to Corrin and the Nohr Royal Family by Hans, who they immediately shut up. Corrin in Conquest isn't really that weak as what people see them as, sure they make some 'immature' choices but they're still adjusting.

[Seanp12]

It feels like the sibling relationships should be reversed. Why do the Nohrian siblings distrust Kamui to the point that they're willing to KILL him? They've known him since he was a young child and his reason for defecting (that whole, "Garon tried to murder me" thing) are perfectly clear. Conversely, the Hoshidan siblings, sans Takumi, trust Kamui, even though time and time again it's shown he's their enemy. A merciful enemy, but an enemy nonetheless. They never seem to fight him with the intention of killing him, even though he's playing an active role in the invasion of their country.

I think it has to do with the fact that the Nohrian royal family is royally messed up due to their upbringing. In Birthright, the Nohrian royals except for Elise all demonstrate big psychological issues, and that's what motivates Elise to jump in front of Xander's sword. The Hoshidans are far more stable, except for Takumi, and so they handle the situation better (except for Takumi).

Even if it wasn't Anakos' using Corrin as a gamble to start it, Corrin is one of the spear reasons for why one side (the nation you didn't ally with) will try to get rid of the other (the one you chose to be with). Also, Leo lied that he didn't trust Corrin because he couldn't find the will to say so. Xander says that he will 'kill' Corrin for trying to attack the king, not just for deceiving his other two siblings. Maybe I should have said that the siblings of the side you didn't side with still love Corrin no matter what they do just that it's hard for them to say so given their circumstances that they are finding themselves in instead of saying they still trust in them.

I don't tend to make my arguments or responses confusing, I try to avoid it. The reason Xander said that Corrin is weak in the Birthright route is that they're so naive and innocent in a war where morals shouldn't exist, in a war, you need to be strong and not take so many risks. In Conquest, that line was given to Corrin and the Nohr Royal Family by Hans, who they immediately shut up. Corrin in Conquest isn't really that weak as what people see them as, sure they make some 'immature' choices but they're still adjusting.

Leo might have been lying about hating Corrin, but not about not trusting him. It's his shattered trust that brings about his rage in the first place. If you had said ​love, I would agree with you wholeheartedly. Their inability to reconcile love with distrust is part of what causes the Nohrian family's breakdown. The Hoshidan family doesn't have that problem (except for Takumi), which is why they don't fall apart.

I think that line by Xander just shows how much his perspective has been skewed. Elise wakes him up to it, and that's when he realizes that he's been an idiot and decides to let Corrin kill him out of guilt.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Seanp12

[Emblem Blade]

I think it has to do with the fact that the Nohrian royal family is royally messed up due to their upbringing. In Birthright, the Nohrian royals except for Elise all demonstrate big psychological issues, and that's what motivates Elise to jump in front of Xander's sword. The Hoshidans are far more stable, except for Takumi, and so they handle the situation better (except for Takumi).

Leo might have been lying about hating Corrin, but not about not trusting him. It's his shattered trust that brings about his rage in the first place. If you had said ​love, I would agree with you wholeheartedly. Their inability to reconcile love with distrust is part of what causes the Nohrian family's breakdown. The Hoshidan family doesn't have that problem (except for Takumi), which is why they don't fall apart.

I think that line by Xander just shows how much his perspective has been skewed. Elise wakes him up to it, and that's when he realizes that he's been an idiot and decides to let Corrin kill him out of guilt.

I should have said 'love' not trust since on every single route, there is trust issues but the theme on the love between characters still is present (somewhat). What makes Corrin in this game a bit unique is that even though they are torn between trust and loyalty to the side they choose, they still very much love the other side (usually a scenario like this causes the protagonist to show more favor to the nation they side with until the end). The thread heading makes me wonder if it should be called 'Why is Conquest Corrin called an 'idiot'?' since it's only their morals that end up with one side (Birthright and Conquest) or both (Revelation) sides calling them weak and indecisive.

[eclipse]

Two people had some clue as to what I wanted. So rather than quote both posts (which are long), I'll link them instead. If anyone ELSE wants to give their interpretation of what should've happened, feel free to do so.

One. I didn't see Nohr as an unsympathetic nation, just one that was too afraid to do anything contrary because of their king. I'd like to see the ending before addressing this further (just finished Chapter 23).

Two. There's a major sticking point, and that's the trust between the nations. Azura originally came from Hoshido, so if she suddenly got a crystal that showed Garon's true nature, there's no guarantee that the other four siblings would've gone "okay you're right". . .especially Xander, who might bring up the fact that she might be a Hoshido agent working to undermine Nohr's politics. If Azura's plan works, the next hurdle would be to convince the Hoshido siblings that Nohr really is trying to change. And even if THAT happens. . .

there's that curse Iago placed on Takumi, which would immediately have the Nohr siblings branded as traitors. Unless that plot device never happens.

Next, the rest of the Hoshido populace would have to be convinced that this is for the best. Though Scarlet wasn't affiliated with any of the Nohr royalty, she mounted a rebellion in Cheve, so I don't see why some daredevil in Hoshido couldn't do the same.

[Azure Sen]

Two. There's a major sticking point, and that's the trust between the nations. Azura originally came from Hoshido, so if she suddenly got a crystal that showed Garon's true nature, there's no guarantee that the other four siblings would've gone "okay you're right". . .especially Xander, who might bring up the fact that she might be a Hoshido agent working to undermine Nohr's politics. If Azura's plan works, the next hurdle would be to convince the Hoshido siblings that Nohr really is trying to change. And even if THAT happens. . .

there's that curse Iago placed on Takumi, which would immediately have the Nohr siblings branded as traitors. Unless that plot device never happens.

Next, the rest of the Hoshido populace would have to be convinced that this is for the best. Though Scarlet wasn't affiliated with any of the Nohr royalty, she mounted a rebellion in Cheve, so I don't see why some daredevil in Hoshido couldn't do the same.

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. I think perhaps the best solution to that would be for all of the siblings to make the trip to Valla somehow, instead of just Corrin and Azura going, since Azura seemed to pick right after they returned specifically because Corrin would be more receptive to the idea. It would certainly make Chapter 15 less annoying to play through. The Hoshido siblings minus Takumi I feel wouldn't be too hard to convince, given their faith in Corrin in Conquest as is.

I'm a little confused. Are you talking about Takumi's curse in Birthright, or his condition in Conquest? Because the latter is quite different, for extra spoiler-y reasons I won't go into now.

Scarlet's rebellion in Cheve was in response to Garon's cruelty, according to her Support in Birthright. In fact, given how widely known his actions are, Garon is a pretty convincing scapegoat, more or less. Add on that they could easily pin Mikoto's death on him, and it seems like Xander and co. have at least some footing to begin building goodwill between the two nations. (And any sort of post-war politics wouldn't be shown in-game anyway, since the game would still end after defeating Garon and the whole point of the Hoshido sibs' support of the Nohr sibs' plans is that no one outside the ten of them knows about it.)

Edited March 8, 2016 by AzureSen

[NekoKnight]

One. I didn't see Nohr as an unsympathetic nation, just one that was too afraid to do anything contrary because of their king. I'd like to see the ending before addressing this further (just finished Chapter 23).

As far as I can tell, none of the Nohrians are particularly against the war, some taking to their duties with gusto. Even for the main characters who dislike how Garon does things, it's more about his methodology than the principle of invading another nation. Marx goes as far as telling Kamui that there is no such thing as justice.

I'd find them sympathetic if they made efforts to stand for their morals. The massacre in Chevelier has been mentioned as a point Kamui should realize the futility of his current direction but he never changes. None of the siblings take a stand until the final chapters and by then most of the villainy has already been accomplished.

[eclipse]

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. I think perhaps the best solution to that would be for all of the siblings to make the trip to Valla somehow, instead of just Corrin and Azura going, since Azura seemed to pick right after they returned specifically because Corrin would be more receptive to the idea. It would certainly make Chapter 15 less annoying to play through. The Hoshido siblings minus Takumi I feel wouldn't be too hard to convince, given their faith in Corrin in Conquest as is.

I'm a little confused. Are you talking about Takumi's curse in Birthright, or his condition in Conquest? Because the latter is quite different, for extra spoiler-y reasons I won't go into now.

Scarlet's rebellion in Cheve was in response to Garon's cruelty, according to her Support in Birthright. In fact, given how widely known his actions are, Garon is a pretty convincing scapegoat, more or less. Add on that they could easily pin Mikoto's death on him, and it seems like Xander and co. have at least some footing to begin building goodwill between the two nations. (And any sort of post-war politics wouldn't be shown in-game anyway, since the game would still end after defeating Garon and the whole point of the Hoshido sibs' support of the Nohr sibs' plans is that no one outside the ten of them knows about it.)

There's several things I don't know about Azura (and probably won't until I finish Revelations), so I can't really say how feasible it would be to get everyone over there (or if they'd even agree to it).

While pinning Mikoto's death on Garon would be easy enough, it would implicate Corrin by association, as it was his sword that went boom. The populace remembers that event like how my grandparents remember the events at Pearl Harbor, so putting blame on the guy that's supposed to be unifying the countries probably won't end very well. Plus, the populace would see that their nobles are aligning with Nohr, and that would most likely cause a riot/loss of faith in the government. Not really the noble's fault, more like the culture's fault for harboring so much hatred.

As far as I can tell, none of the Nohrians are particularly against the war, some taking to their duties with gusto. Even for the main characters who dislike how Garon does things, it's more about his methodology than the principle of invading another nation. Marx goes as far as telling Kamui that there is no such thing as justice.

I'd find them sympathetic if they made efforts to stand for their morals. The massacre in Chevelier has been mentioned as a point Kamui should realize the futility of his current direction but he never changes. None of the siblings take a stand until the final chapters and by then most of the villainy has already been accomplished.

How long do you think the average person would last if they spoke out against the war?

This is a bit more complicated. . .the timing was wrong, and had Corrin went "okay I'm done with this shit", he/she would've been removed, which would've ended any hope for peace (at least in Corrin's eyes). I think even Garon the Cartoon Villain only has so much patience before he snaps.

[Pretty_Handsome]

I think the Hoshido siblings in general, save Takumi, are all far too trusting of Corrin, but it's not explained why. During the duel, Ryoma probably could tell that Corrin isn't actually the kind of person who would murder his own sibling, and so Ryoma decides to commit seppuku both as a fulfillment of his code (having been captured by the enemy) and to allow Corrin to fulfill whatever plan he has. Corrin's plan is stupid, but I can understand why Ryoma decided to trust him, since that seems to be the way the Hoshido siblings are (once again, except for Takumi).

Ryoma and Hinoka knew Corrin before the kidnapping, Hinoka dedicated her life to save Corrin. Of course they are trusting. They just wanted their beloved sibling back.

Sakura is known to be meek and shy.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Pretty_Handsome

[NekoKnight]

How long do you think the average person would last if they spoke out against the war?

This is a bit more complicated. . .the timing was wrong, and had Corrin went "okay I'm done with this shit", he/she would've been removed, which would've ended any hope for peace (at least in Corrin's eyes). I think even Garon the Cartoon Villain only has so much patience before he snaps.

The average person? Not long I suspect, but there is a reason why we don't tell stories about the incapable. We play as lords, not the common soldier, because it's expected that we should have agency. The problem with the story is that it keeps railroading you into doing things you don't want to do, and whenever you do try to accomplish something, the villains are quick to undo it.

I'm not saying they should act without fear of punishment or without failure (the massacre in Chevalier is a fair scene, taken by itself), I'm saying if they truly want to make a difference (and this goes for both Kamui and his siblings) they need to be more proactive. I'd agree rebelling openly wouldn't be wise, but as AzureSen suggested, they could try more subtle ways to undermine Garon and eventually defeat him.

The counterargument to my post would be "Iago is always watching them so they can't do anything suspicious." but that's exactly what I mean by railroading. How and why is Iago always watching? Does he not have a day job? It doesn't matter. Everything in Conquest exists to ensure that you fail. Kamui doesn't grow or learn. He doesn't take proactive steps (Chapter 15 introduces the "do nothing until the end of the war and then kill Garon" plan) to create the world he wants to see. You are doomed to fail from the start.

That's why I often compare Conquest to a Bad End from a visual novel. The game gives you the choice but it was obviously intended to be the wrong choice. Conquest is bad enough in a vacuum but it becomes immeasurably worse when compared to the other choices (routes) he could have taken.

Ryoma and Hinoka knew Corrin before the kidnapping, Hinoka dedicated her life to save Corrin. Of course they are trusting. They just wanted their beloved sibling back.

Sakura is known to be meek and shy.

There is a difference between missing a person you lost and trusting someone who continues to act against you.

[Pretty_Handsome]

They do act oddly in Conquest but everyone does.

Ryoma at least flies into a rage and disowns you when he believes that you killed his beloved little sister Hinoka.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Pretty_Handsome

[BruceLee]

Chapter 13: During Chapter 13, this is the first real time we see Corrin fail on attempting mercy due to the interference of Hans. Without the knowledge of Leo, Corrin gets in a slump and essentially lets the massacre take place, even though he does not want it to happen. While I would like to see a different outcome where Corrin prevents the massacre, I think the events in this chapter are crucial to the overall plot. Chapter 13 and Chapter 22 would have been extremely powerful chapters, especially if Corrin finally breaks away from Garon and rebels, but it seems like that never happens, so Corrin's lack of action suggests incompetence and may make players not like the character.

Exactly, it makes him very unlikable to me. I don't want a hero with no backbone who just stands around clenching his fists while innocents are slaughtered in front of him.

Everything in Conquest exists to ensure that you fail. Kamui doesn't grow or learn. He doesn't take proactive steps (Chapter 15 introduces the "do nothing until the end of the war and then kill Garon" plan) to create the world he wants to see. You are doomed to fail from the start.

That's why I often compare Conquest to a Bad End from a visual novel. The game gives you the choice but it was obviously intended to be the wrong choice. Conquest is bad enough in a vacuum but it becomes immeasurably worse when compared to the other choices (routes) he could have taken.

So true.

[Emblem Blade]

The average person? Not long I suspect, but there is a reason why we don't tell stories about the incapable. We play as lords, not the common soldier, because it's expected that we should have agency. The problem with the story is that it keeps railroading you into doing things you don't want to do, and whenever you do try to accomplish something, the villains are quick to undo it.

I'm not saying they should act without fear of punishment or without failure (the massacre in Chevalier is a fair scene, taken by itself), I'm saying if they truly want to make a difference (and this goes for both Kamui and his siblings) they need to be more proactive. I'd agree rebelling openly wouldn't be wise, but as AzureSen suggested, they could try more subtle ways to undermine Garon and eventually defeat him.

The counterargument to my post would be "Iago is always watching them so they can't do anything suspicious." but that's exactly what I mean by railroading. How and why is Iago always watching? Does he not have a day job? It doesn't matter. Everything in Conquest exists to ensure that you fail. Kamui doesn't grow or learn. He doesn't take proactive steps (Chapter 15 introduces the "do nothing until the end of the war and then kill Garon" plan) to create the world he wants to see. You are doomed to fail from the start.

That's why I often compare Conquest to a Bad End from a visual novel. The game gives you the choice but it was obviously intended to be the wrong choice. Conquest is bad enough in a vacuum but it becomes immeasurably worse when compared to the other choices (routes) he could have taken.

There is a difference between missing a person you lost and trusting someone who continues to act against you.

Again, both sides have some issues reconciling their love for Corrin due to the hardships in trusting them when they side against them. Corrin, being a very smart person, still occasionally acts like a typical FE Lord, which is being stupid a few times in the storyline.

[BruceLee]

Again, both sides have some issues reconciling their love for Corrin due to the hardships in trusting them when they side against them. Corrin, being a very smart person, still occasionally acts like a typical FE Lord, which is being stupid a few times in the storyline.

Nohr!Corrin is a very smart person? You and i have different standards on what a smart person is then.

[Emblem Blade]

Nohr!Corrin is a very smart person? You and i have different standards on what a smart person is then.

Corrin, regardless of the route taken, is morally smart, they don't rely on power alone to get their point across (if it was power alone they wouldn't even make an impression as Xander is much stronger than them in even in Conquest due to story-mechanics). In Conquest, Corrin actually takes less time to stop and think about the casualties and keeps pressing on, in Birthright, they become hesitant whenever they are faced with the situation that they'll have to kill someone they really care for. Conquest Corrin just says briefly 'Capture them' then resuming their mission as what they should do. Capture any resistance and deal with them later since your main mission is to conquer (in Conquest's storyline). When the team battles Iago and Hans, they give the two villains a 'shut up' speech before ordering the army to execute them in battle. Smart doesn't mean that 24/7 you are going to do the right thing every time without botching up the scenario. If a character were to do the right thing all the time in a FE series, they would sooner or later become very boring as they never change at all, they would be the 'perfect' being, having some flaws is never a bad thing when said character will slowly or on a quick pace pound those flaws out of themselves.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Emblem Blade

[BruceLee]

Smart doesn't mean that 24/7 you are going to do the right thing every time without botching up the scenario.

There's a difference between not doing the right thing 24/7, and doing a lot of stupid shit.

Having some flaws is never a bad thing when said character will slowly or on a quick pace pound those flaws out of themselves.

When does Nohr!Corrin ''pounds his flaws out''? I seem to be missing something here. As far as i saw he was the same idiot at the end of Conquest as he was at the end of chapter 15. Even more of an idiot than when you choose Nohr.

Edited March 8, 2016 by BruceLee

[Thane]

Corrin, regardless of the route taken, is morally smart, they don't rely on power alone to get their point across (if it was power alone they wouldn't even make an impression as Xander is much stronger than them in even in Conquest due to story-mechanics). In Conquest, Corrin actually takes less time to stop and think about the casualties and keeps pressing on, in Birthright, they become hesitant whenever they are faced with the situation that they'll have to kill someone they really care for. Conquest Corrin just says briefly 'Capture them' then resuming their mission as what they should do. Capture any resistance and deal with them later since your main mission is to conquer (in Conquest's storyline). When the team battles Iago and Hans, they give the two villains a 'shut up' speech before ordering the army to execute them in battle. Smart doesn't mean that 24/7 you are going to do the right thing every time without botching up the scenario. If a character were to do the right thing all the time in a FE series, they would sooner or later become very boring as they never change at all, they would be the 'perfect' being, having some flaws is never a bad thing when said character will slowly or on a quick pace pound those flaws out of themselves.

I'm not very into discussions about moral since they tend to never lead anywhere (much like Fates story threads, hey-ooooh!), but wouldn't Conquest Corrin be a complete asshat morally speaking, since he could just let Zora do his dirty work and remove any obstacle to Garon sitting on that bloody glorified chair?

[Emblem Blade]

There's a difference between not doing the right thing 24/7, and doing a lot of stupid shit.

When does Nohr!Corrin ''pounds his flaws out''? I seem to be missing something here. As far as i saw he was the same idiot at the end of Conquest as he was at the end of chapter 15. Even more of an idiot than when you choose Nohr.

That's quite a lot coming from someone who I could start to think that has an opinion of 'Might makes right'. Corrin never does stupid things all the time, of course they would make mistakes, just about every FE Lord has made mistakes that other army members and players think need to be avoided.

I never said 'Corrin' in that line, I said that it's not a bad thing for characters to have some flaws if they sooner or later remove them over the course of the game. If by your implication is dictating what I said to Corrin and Corrin alone, then I'm wondering where you saw that.

I'm not very into discussions about moral since they tend to never lead anywhere (much like Fates story threads, hey-ooooh!), but wouldn't Conquest Corrin be a complete asshat morally speaking, since he could just let Zora do his dirty work and remove any obstacle to Garon sitting on that bloody glorified chair?

That was the reason why Xander said that to Corrin in Birthright during his final boss fight. Hans also said that to Corrin and the Nohr Royal Family when he said that the five of them were 'weak'. And no, Conquest Corrin wouldn't be that much of a stupidhead if he was just morally correct. You can't properly lead a kingdom through brute strength without considering the need of your people as your people (if they are supporting you) will continue to side with you and fight for you. Conquest Corrin actually knows a bit more regarding Garon's intentions since he actually returns to Nohr and is able to 'translate' what the false Garon is trying to get him to do. You need the strength to back up your words as a leader, Corrin has the moral options that gives them leadership qualities but they (obviously) lack the actual might to support their views. Also, even Corrin screwed up there, I think both Xander and Leo wouldn't let Corrin's useless ideals last too long as it would send all five of them into deeper trouble than they need to be in.

[Azure Sen]

There's several things I don't know about Azura (and probably won't until I finish Revelations), so I can't really say how feasible it would be to get everyone over there (or if they'd even agree to it).

While pinning Mikoto's death on Garon would be easy enough, it would implicate Corrin by association, as it was his sword that went boom. The populace remembers that event like how my grandparents remember the events at Pearl Harbor, so putting blame on the guy that's supposed to be unifying the countries probably won't end very well. Plus, the populace would see that their nobles are aligning with Nohr, and that would most likely cause a riot/loss of faith in the government. Not really the noble's fault, more like the culture's fault for harboring so much hatred.

Yeah, let's drop this line of discussion before we head into Revelations spoiler territory and resume once everyone's had a chance to play it. I've already accidentally spoiled myself and don't want to do that to anyone else.

Things like this are what makes working within the bounds of canon to revise a story difficult. Though I'd disagree that it would lead to rioting, there would probably be some major discontent. (Although didn't the explosion kill most everyone who was there anyway?)

That's quite a lot coming from someone who I could start to think that has an opinion of 'Might makes right'. Corrin never does stupid things all the time, of course they would make mistakes, just about every FE Lord has made mistakes that other army members and players think need to be avoided.

I never said 'Corrin' in that line, I said that it's not a bad thing for characters to have some flaws if they sooner or later remove them over the course of the game. If by your implication is dictating what I said to Corrin and Corrin alone, then I'm wondering where you saw that.

That was the reason why Xander said that to Corrin in Birthright during his final boss fight. Hans also said that to Corrin and the Nohr Royal Family when he said that the five of them were 'weak'. And no, Conquest Corrin wouldn't be that much of a stupidhead if he was just morally correct. You can't properly lead a kingdom through brute strength without considering the need of your people as your people (if they are supporting you) will continue to side with you and fight for you. Conquest Corrin actually knows a bit more regarding Garon's intentions since he actually returns to Nohr and is able to 'translate' what the false Garon is trying to get him to do. You need the strength to back up your words as a leader, Corrin has the moral options that gives them leadership qualities but they (obviously) lack the actual might to support their views. Also, even Corrin screwed up there, I think both Xander and Leo wouldn't let Corrin's useless ideals last too long as it would send all five of them into deeper trouble than they need to be in.

Where in BruceLee's post did he indicate that he thought that "might makes right?" (And given that war kind of solves the major problem of Conquest, he's not far off.) And while you could argue that Corrin doesn't do stupid things all the time in Conquest, the stupid things he does are so monumentally dumb that it kind of taints the rest of his character.

The problem with bringing up those two instances are that the two characters are supposed to be wrong within the narrative. Hans is...well, Hans, and Xander throughout the course of Birthright has proven himself to be much weaker than Corrin. And Garon's intentions are to make Corrin suffer, something that Corrin never figures out, and to destroy Hoshido, which Corrin opposes (but then doesn't because plot). It doesn't take being in Nohr to figure out the latter, really.

[Emblem Blade]

Yeah, let's drop this line of discussion before we head into Revelations spoiler territory and resume once everyone's had a chance to play it. I've already accidentally spoiled myself and don't want to do that to anyone else.

Things like this are what makes working within the bounds of canon to revise a story difficult. Though I'd disagree that it would lead to rioting, there would probably be some major discontent. (Although didn't the explosion kill most everyone who was there anyway?)

Where in BruceLee's post did he indicate that he thought that "might makes right?" (And given that war kind of solves the major problem of Conquest, he's not far off.) And while you could argue that Corrin doesn't do stupid things all the time in Conquest, the stupid things he does are so monumentally dumb that it kind of taints the rest of his character.

The problem with bringing up those two instances are that the two characters are supposed to be wrong within the narrative. Hans is...well, Hans, and Xander throughout the course of Birthright has proven himself to be much weaker than Corrin. And Garon's intentions are to make Corrin suffer, something that Corrin never figures out, and to destroy Hoshido, which Corrin opposes (but then doesn't because plot). It doesn't take being in Nohr to figure out the latter, really.

I never said anywhere that he did say that, I said that because I thought that was his viewpoint. Yes, I can agree that in Conquest, Corrin does send their followers and Nohr 'siblings' into some very dumb situation that make them look 'weak' as well as making some rather horrid decisions, I have played Conquest and I don't really see any real problems with it other than the difficulty due to the lack of exp. gain outside of the story and DLC.

Xander was literally beating Corrin fairly in the cutscene sequence (although one could say that Corrin wasn't even defending themselves), the actual battle somewhat proves that Xander is basically shattered emotionally and his own beliefs are pretty much destroyed and he lost his will to fight so by that point he is weaker than he should be (but this point is off-topic).

Edited March 8, 2016 by Emblem Blade

[TWrex]

Honestly it's not so much Corrin's idiocy that bothers me so much as it's the Norhian siblings idiocy that bothers me, at least on the Birthright path. I don't understand how the siblings can claim to care for you so much, or at least Camilla and Elise do, but then are so quick to call you traitorous scum and try to kill you. This is especially infuriating when King Garon has tried to kill Corrin three times before the decision to side with Hoshido comes around;

• Once when Corrin refuses to execute Rinkah and Kaze (Which this one I can sorta let slide because you did directly disobey the King and show mercy to your sworn enemies.)
• Once when Hans tries to kill you at the bottomless canyon under orders from King Garon.
• Once when King Garon gives you a self destruct sword that would've killed Corrin if it wasn't for Mikoto.

So despite these attempts on Corrin's life and their explanation of this to his Nohrian siblings they simply call him traitorous scum and try to kill him. I mean what the actual fuck?! Corrin's basically like "Look dads trying to kill me, can you really call me a traitor for not wanting to return to the guy who has tried to have me killed three times now?" and the siblings are basically like "But you sided with Hoshido therefore you are scum." How can they possibly claim to care for Corrin if they aren't even willing to listen to what they have to say? I mean I can understand not siding with him but the fact that they try to actually kill him after everything that has happened is ludicrous.