So why exactly do people call Conquest Corrin an idiot?(Conquest spoilers)

[FEF]

Admittedly I only actually played through English Birthright once, but I thought that Flora made note of how Kamui spared as many people as he could in that chapter?

EDIT:

And since two of those siblings die anyway before Conquest is over, Kamui's actions in chapter 18 seem moot anyway. Might've actually been more merciful to just let them die (or be captured) in chapter 18 instead of dragging out their demises until the last handful of chapters.

Agreed, but to be fair, Corrin doesn't know they'll die at that point. I mean... it should've been kinda obvious that it was a major possibility, I would think, but yeah.

What would have been smart is to insist that the Hoshidans remain captured, but used as bargaining chips instead of killing them and making them martyrs. After all, even with Garon, Hans, and Iago right there, none of them took umbrage at the idea of keeping Sakura as a hostage later on. So it's not impossible at all that Hinoka, at least, would have also been spared.

But that doesn't result in a battle instantly, so can't have none of that.

Edited March 7, 2016 by FEF

[Tolvir]

If Kamui really was a hero he would strike Hans down in chapter 13, regardless of the consequences. A hero doesn't stand around while civilians are slaughtered in front of him, atleast not a likable one.

I often imagine what Ike(for example) would have done in that situation. And then i realize Kamui is a little bitch.

Well you do have the Garon's Iron Fist situation, but even then, as I pointed out Garon really doesn't care about Iago or Hans. Corrin could of easily ended the both of them and then come up with an excuse as to why he had to kill them, and Garon would likely let it go since he really doesn't care. It would of been a great situation to show off his intelligence because they could of had him doing things like framing Iago to look like he was a traitor so that Garon executes him instead of Corrin doing it. Same with Hans, but getting him killed by setting a trap for him, like luring him into a heavily armed Hoshidan force that could easily wipe out Hans and whatever force he has.

edit: See I didn't know the full situation with Birthright as I havent gotten the chance to play it yet. All I remember reading is that you fight the Ice Tribe, and that a lot of them died or something, so I clearly don't have the entire picture of what actually went on in that chapter.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Tolvir

[Rapier]

What would have been smart is to insist that the Hoshidans remain captured, but used as bargaining chips instead of killing them and making them martyrs.

Slime Garon doesn't approve this optimistic and logical idea.

[Sunwoo]

What would have been smart is to insist that the Hoshidans remain captured, but used as bargaining chips instead of killing them and making them martyrs. After all, even with Garon, Hans, and Iago right there, none of them took umbrage at the idea of keeping Sakura as a hostage later on. So it's not impossible at all that Hinoka, at least, would have also been spared.

Actually, this is a really damn good point. If my memory isn't mistaken they were perfectly willing to take Sakura and Takumi as hostages in chapters 22 and 23, and if all four of them had been kept alive in Izumo as hostages then Hoshido would be forced to surrender anyway. And maybe we could've had something different and more revolution-related from 19+ instead of continuing to invade Hoshido when you could've stopped the war right there.

WTF, game.

[Emblem Blade]

Well you do have the Garon's Iron Fist situation, but even then, as I pointed out Garon really doesn't care about Iago or Hans. Corrin could of easily ended the both of them and then come up with an excuse as to why he had to kill them, and Garon would likely let it go since he really doesn't care. It would of been a great situation to show off his intelligence because they could of had him doing things like framing Iago to look like he was a traitor so that Garon executes him instead of Corrin doing it. Same with Hans, but getting him killed by setting a trap for him, like luring him into a heavily armed Hoshidan force that could easily wipe out Hans and whatever force he has.

One of the only times Garon even remotely showed concern regarding events was when Corrin returned from Hoshido back to Nohr (as Corrin now knows most of their origins thanks to Ryoma and Mikoto). From there...all of you can should be able to agree that Garon didn't even care for anyone below him. Garon actually showed that he didn't really approve of Iago and it looked like he didn't care if he died as one of Birthright's chapters shows. Sending Corrin on a suicide mission? Not the first time it has happened to them aka Chapter 3. Even then Corrin makes some pretty smart decisions when it comes down to battling the Hoshido Army in Conquest (although they make some mistakes). Hans was asking to get killed one way or another. He basically blew the stick twice in the wrong direction, the second time in Conquest, it ended in an epic failure.

[Abysswalker25]

Actually, this is a really damn good point. If my memory isn't mistaken they were perfectly willing to take Sakura and Takumi as hostages in chapters 22 and 23, and if all four of them had been kept alive in Izumo as hostages then Hoshido would be forced to surrender anyway. And maybe we could've had something different and more revolution-related from 19+ instead of continuing to invade Hoshido when you could've stopped the war right there.

WTF, game.

Zola was planning on executing all of them. And if he killed all your siblings.. well, doesn't that sort of feel anti-climatic? No showdown with Ryoma, Takumi, Sakura or Hinoka? They're just.. dead and we move on to revolution?

[FEF]

Zola was planning on executing all of them. And if he killed all your siblings.. well, doesn't that sort of feel anti-climatic? No showdown with Ryoma, Takumi, Sakura or Hinoka? They're just.. dead and we move on to revolution?

Yeah, and he's Zola. You're the royal family. Did you see how smoothly Corrin handled Iago earlier, with the whole "This blood is totally from some enemies we killed. Don't question me again or I'll kill you" deal? Paraphrasing obviously, but the point is that Corrin has proven themselves capable of intimidating Iago, Garon's right-hand man. Zola is massively down on the food chain, so to speak. And he's a cowardly little dastard on top of it. When presented with all 5 royal children telling him not to kill the Hoshidans, he ain't gonna do a dang thing against them.

Honestly, the fact that you even fight him at all is stupid for him, too. "Hey Garon so I killed your kids..." would not have gone well for anybody involved. Well I mean, Garon being what he is probably wouldn't actually care, but Zola doesn't know that at the time.

[Tolvir]

Actually, this is a really damn good point. If my memory isn't mistaken they were perfectly willing to take Sakura and Takumi as hostages in chapters 22 and 23, and if all four of them had been kept alive in Izumo as hostages then Hoshido would be forced to surrender anyway. And maybe we could've had something different and more revolution-related from 19+ instead of continuing to invade Hoshido when you could've stopped the war right there.

WTF, game.

One of my biggest problems with Conquest's story is why Corrin didn't drag Ryoma and Hinoka off to the side in that chapter, since they were both there, and tell them what is going on with Garon, and what needs to be done about him. I am pretty sure Ryoma and Hinoka would of been perfectly willing to help Corrin if he explained everything to them.

[Rapier]

One of my biggest problems with Conquest's story is why Corrin didn't drag Ryoma and Hinoka off to the side in that chapter, since they were both there, and tell them what is going on with Garon, and what needs to be done about him. I am pretty sure Ryoma and Hinoka would of been perfectly willing to help Corrin if he explained everything to them.

I don't think they'd be so willing to give up the throne and surrender just because of a traitor's word, despite it being Corrin.

[Tolvir]

I don't think they'd be so willing to give up the throne and surrender just because of a traitor's word, despite it being Corrin.

Not give up the throne, but it is still their brother, and if he told them that Garon was possessed, and that the Nohrian Royals don't know that, and need to find a way to do that. Then they would probably try and help their brother find a way to stop Garon while still trying to break it to the Nohrian Royals that their father is not the same person anymore. Xander once his form was revealed was the first to really come around, and in the localized version he says he had suspicions, so at least he would be easy to convince. Either way I think they would be willing to help corrin find another way to go about this, doesn't have to include the throne.

EDIT: Okay let me restate that, worded it a little badly. What I am trying to say is that I think at least Ryoma and Hinoka would be willing to help Corrin find a way to stop Garon without using the throne, and sparing the Nohrians.Ryoma showed that he was still willing to talk to his brother in the chapter, so he doesn't completely resent him, and Hinoka is the same way, the only one is Takumi, who by this time is well under way for what happens later in the game. The Hoshidans aren't evil, and the royals don't have racism towards them speaking that they were just fine with both Scarlet and Azura, so it wouldn't be hard for Corrin to explain the situation the Nohr siblings are in, that they are the ones who spared Kaze and Rinka's life, and that they are really stuck in a bad place because they don't agree with their father, but they don't have a choice because otherwise they will be executed.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Tolvir

[Emblem Blade]

I don't think they'd be so willing to give up the throne and surrender just because of a traitor's word, despite it being Corrin.

It could be argued for Hinoka and Sakura, Ryoma most likely wouldn't (his description of being the worst at giving up proves it in a way). I would most likely say that Takumi would flat-out turn down the offer considering his inferior personality and hatred towards Nohr in both routes (not Revelation where he accepts them in the end).

[Sire]

Just adding in my opinion, but I have not read the entire topic yet. Also, I have not yet finished Conquest, but I'm on chapter 25/28. Also, please note that I am talking about Conquest as a stand-alone story, without ties to the other two routes.

I have read the previous story topics, especially when Fates was originally released in Japan, so I knew what I was getting into. When I finally picked up Conquest, I enjoyed the story for what it was worth and went with the flow, but everything changed once Chapter 21 came along. Before that chapter, I saw...

1: Corrin sides with Nohr to be with his family that he grew up with. Although he has a terrible father in the form of Garon, his siblings are there for him and they all get along.

2: Corrin desires a peaceful resolution, and tries to pick the diplomatic or merciful option whenever possible. This can be considered one of Corrin's "good" traits, but it does border somewhat on naivety especially as the story progresses.

2a: He spares the Ice Tribe Village in Chapter 8, Spares his Hoshido siblings in Chapters 10 & 11, tries to spare the Cheve rebellion in 13 before they were massacred, etc.

2b: He spares his Hoshido siblings from being executed in Chapter 18. While it may make more sense for the "greater peace" if they were executed, Corrin does not choose that option and wishes for a peaceful solution. They are family, after all.

3: Garon and Iago want Corrin to suffer as much as possible, I believe they do this so Corrin can act as some form of sacrifice later on. ("Prime" the sacrifice with despair and stuff.)

3a: Direct intervention happens in Chapter 7 and 21 with the Faceless, but there are also indirect methods as well.

3b: Xander catches this as early as Chapter 7 when he sends Elise and others to help out Corrin. While some action is taken from the shadows, it begs the question why active action is not really taken, unless Garon's forces are indeed too powerful to take on.

3c: Corrin, meanwhile, seems blind on the "unfortunate series of events" that happen. However, Corrin prevails anyway and continues his journey.

4: Garon himself seems to be too powerful to take on as of present, so Corrin and company must try and work from the shadows and give the illusion of following orders. Of course, their good intentions does not save everyone because Garon and company kill practically everyone anyway (and this reason is likely a major factor on why everyone dislikes Conquest's Corrin).

This is somewhat understandable, especially as Eastern cultures value collectivism and "for the group" instead of individual beliefs that is commonly valued in the West. However, once Chapter 21 hit (which sucks as this begins the proper Invasion of Hoshido arc and amazing music), my disbelief got thrown out the window.

1: Lilith in Chapter 21. Setting the tone for the rest of the story, coming out of nowhere, my immersion was immediately shattered during this scene. A character that barely shows up for the entire game suddenly dies and Corrin has a meltdown, needing a pep talk from Xander to get back on his feet. I understand that Corrin lost someone dear to him, but this is not really explained in-game and Lilith conveniently transforming back into a human just shattered my immersion. It was so unrealistic I had to call BS.

2: Ending of Chapter 22, the massacre of Fort Jinya. If Cheve of Chapter 13 was not a wake-up call, this had to be. Even Xander was powerless against the "authority of King Garon", but at least the important characters were spared from execution. One the major plot points listed in this chapter (or one nearby), is that the Nohrian army is split between Xander Loyalists and Garon Loyalists. Things could have been different if...

3: Chapter 24, Hinoka is allowed to talk to Ryoma. This is Corrin's chance to rebel against King Garon, as Corrin's ultimate goal is to unmask Garon and bring peace to the land, not to slaughter and conquer Hoshido. If Nohr's army is split and Corrin's (Xander's) forces teams up with the Hoshido army, they could have crushed Garon's legions. There would have been possessed Takumi to deal with, but otherwise this change delivers on Corrin's maturity and taking action against his corrupt (and fake) father instead of blindly following Azura's plan of the "Throne of Truth".

However, in-game, Corrin sticks with the plan to "Have Garon sit on the throne, that will unmask him, and deal with him then" instead of attempting this risky maneuver. Of course, Corrin would have to convince everyone to rebel against Garon (and trying to work with your enemy would also be difficult), but considering Garon's recent actions, I think the rebellion could have gone fairly well.

Nitpicks:

Chapter 7 : Xander picks up on that Corrin is being made to suffer by Garon and Iago. While he does help out from the shadows, as per the overall theme of the Conquest storyline, some may have liked if the siblings took action earlier, especially as Hans and Iago begin massacring everyone against the wishes of Corrin and company like in Chapter 13.

Chapter 13: During Chapter 13, this is the first real time we see Corrin fail on attempting mercy due to the interference of Hans. Without the knowledge of Leo, Corrin gets in a slump and essentially lets the massacre take place, even though he does not want it to happen. While I would like to see a different outcome where Corrin prevents the massacre, I think the events in this chapter are crucial to the overall plot. Chapter 13 and Chapter 22 would have been extremely powerful chapters, especially if Corrin finally breaks away from Garon and rebels, but it seems like that never happens, so Corrin's lack of action suggests incompetence and may make players not like the character.

Chapter 14: Corrin does not recognize Azura who is dancing, nor does anyone else. It should be easy for an outside observer to immediately see that Azura resembles the dancer on the stage, how many dancers are there that have long blue hair and wears an outfit similar to what they already wear? While it can be argued that the audience had some distance from the performance, the long blue hair and perhaps even the outfit should be a dead giveaway.

Also, Leo offers insight on the overall Conquest theme of "following father's orders, but bending the rules to do the right thing." Leo shows this as early as Chapter 2 when he spares Kaze and Rinkah by faking their deaths. This is an important plot point, especially when Corrin becomes helpless as he is forced to watch people die in front of him, as well as lie in the name of "greater peace." However, as I have stated above and perhaps as others may have wished, is that Corrin breaks away from following orders and finally stands up for himself and do the right thing, even if there are consequences.

Chapter 15: As far as I am concerned, this chapter is here to tie in with the other storylines and maybe justify Slime Garon. While I can deal with Slime Garon, I too wish Corrin actually did something instead of trying to keep up the facade of following orders and being a "good little murderer".

* * * * *

It is a shame. I now see where Conquest's story had so much potential (and it was going fairly smoothly for me until Chapter 21), but to see it all practically fall apart in the end sucks. Yes, the scene with Ryoma is touching and all because we know what Corrin really did, but that could have been prevented.

I like the idea of Corrin working in the shadows and trying to manipulate events for "greater peace", but it is also nice that he fails sometimes because of the interference of another, like the massacre at Cheve. What I would have liked to see is that Corrin finally break the facade and confront Garon instead of waiting for the "Throne of Truth", and I felt that Chapter 24 would have been a perfect place to rebel against King Garon and work alongside Hoshido's forces.

Corrin sees the massacre at Chapter 13, Xanders witnesses the massacre at Chapter 22, and both become disillusioned with Garon. Xander's loyalists also do not approve of the massacre, and then they rebel while Corrin calls in favors from Ryoma and Hinoka. Garon is defeated by a Nohr & Hoshido alliance, Takumi is blamed for everything (joking, he is handled somehow), and Xander and Ryoma begin new relationships between Nohr and Hoshido.

Then, the third faction pops up, destroys everything, laughs in your face, and say, look at the DLC for what happens if you did not choose Revelations, you fool!

Back to being serious, I guess at the end of the day, the main question that needs to be asked is "How powerful is Garon?" The story paints him as an all powerful figure that executes anyone who disobeys him, but aside from mostly minor characters being killed off-screen, we really don't see the extent of Garon's power. Perhaps story wise Corrin could not rebel against Garon even if he wanted to, and needed the magic throne for that final piece of evidence to unmask what Garon really is, but I feel this is just a weak plot point that could have been handled better.

I guess I'll read up on the topic and stop writing a wall of text. I look forward to the discussion at hand.

[Tolvir]

Just adding in my opinion, but I have not read the entire topic yet. Also, I have not yet finished Conquest, but I'm on chapter 25/28. Also, please note that I am talking about Conquest as a stand-alone story, without ties to the other two routes.............

One of the things that would of helped immensely is some show of Garon's power. The entire cutscene showing what happened between Sumeragi and Garon should of been Garon kicking his ass, which would of been a great show of power on just how dangerous he is. Then after that you can have him fighting the three main hoshido royals later on by himself, and once again winning that fight. It should of been made very clear that Garon is no pushover, and that he has the power he has because of how dangerous he is on his own, let alone having a lot of powerful lackeys as well.

edit: One way they could of gone is that Xander has control over a bit of the army on his own. He is the crown prince after all, so it would make sense. Have chapter 22 go on, and the objective for 22 is to get to where Yukimura is. Once that happens you get a cutscene of Xander and a small portion of the army approaching, with Garon's forces being visible in the background. You show it looking bleak for the Hoshidans in Jynra with Xander already surrounding them. Then as Xander approaches them, he turns around and starts shouting orders to his forces. You then see them start turning around, and setting for charge, with Xander telling the remaining Hoshidans to leave and that they will cover their retreat. Right here you start playing the revolution route by Xander and the other siblings clearly disobeying orders and fighting against Garon, and showing Hoshido that they do not wish to fight them. from here you could have the two teaming up to bring down Garon. The only problem is though is this would only work if the game was structured more like Radiant Dawn with each part being a different faction, rather than entirely different games.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Tolvir

[Sunwoo]

Zola was planning on executing all of them. And if he killed all your siblings.. well, doesn't that sort of feel anti-climatic? No showdown with Ryoma, Takumi, Sakura or Hinoka? They're just.. dead and we move on to revolution?

I'd take anticlimactic but sensical over stupid nonsensical plot, honestly. And besides, there's no reason you couldn't have had a climactic battle with all of the siblings in an earlier chapter and still have them captured or executed in chapter 18.

EDIT: Oh my gosh, people, TRIM YER LONG QUOTES. IF YOU DON'T NEED THE WHOLE THING PLEASE CUT IT DOWN.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Sunwoo

[Emblem Blade]

One of the things that would of helped immensely is some show of Garon's power. The entire cutscene showing what happened between Sumeragi and Garon should of been Garon kicking his ass, which would of been a great show of power on just how dangerous he is. Then after that you can have him fighting the three main hoshido royals later on by himself, and once again winning that fight. It should of been made very clear that Garon is no pushover, and that he has the power he has because of how dangerous he is on his own, let alone having a lot of powerful lackeys as well.

It should also be noted that it might have been Slime Garon that killed Sumeragi, not the actual living King Garon. Because both the real living Garon and Sumeragi should be well known for their fighting power, Garon in particular since he ruled a military nation. Slime Garon beating Ryoma shouldn't be too shocking, it is afterall a shadow of the one real Nohr King easily trouncing someone who is still leagues below it. The fact that Yato had to blessed and buffed again after the initial power-up alone should prove how powerful Slime Garon is and how much stronger the real King Garon could have been. In either direction, a direct confrontation with a being who is the leader of a nation should not be taken too lightly. Garon effortlessly proved that twice, even if the first time it wasn't the real person but a slime clone. Corrin got really lucky that Xander wasn't killed for intervening for them during each 'failure' to obey or they wouldn't even be able to beat the imposter.

[RedRob]

Well you do have the Garon's Iron Fist situation, but even then, as I pointed out Garon really doesn't care about Iago or Hans. Corrin could of easily ended the both of them and then come up with an excuse as to why he had to kill them,

Corrin doesn't even need an excuse, he could just pass off their deaths as the deeds of an enemy soldier, and avoid any possible punishment. I think I actually mentioned that in my post to Fallanar or somebody on why Corrin was stupid and considered a Stu.

[Seanp12]

That's an interesting take on it. What chapter are you at?

When I wrote that, I believe I was at Chapter 22. It was definitely before

any Hoshidan siblings died. At that point, the part about sparing those closest to you kind of went out the window. Then again, it was impossible for Corrin to know about Takumi, and after being defeated, Ryoma did what samurai are supposed to do anyway. At least Conquest only has one ridiculous death (Ryoma's). Birthright threw so many random deaths at me that I stopped caring after Flora died. "Oh, Lilith is dead. Who's next to die for a ham-fisted attempt to pull heartstrings?"

[Tolvir]

Corrin doesn't even need an excuse, he could just pass off their deaths as the deeds of an enemy soldier, and avoid any possible punishment. I think I actually mentioned that in my post to Fallanar or somebody on why Corrin was stupid and considered a Stu.

That would of worked fine too. To be completely honest Nohr!Corrin should of been a Chaotic Good type character where the end justifies the means type of thing. Then again I am biased towards those types of characters as I find them to be capable of some really interesting story telling when done right. While you can kind of say that is what he is like in Nohr, I am meaning more of the type that is willing to get his hands a little dirty killing someone like Hans or Iago if it means saving the innocent. Even in Chapter 27 Corrin couldn't kill Iago, even though he confessed to getting both Lilith and Ryoma killed.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Tolvir

[Thane]

I don't think they'd be so willing to give up the throne and surrender just because of a traitor's word, despite it being Corrin.

Aren't Ryouma's literal last words "I'll believe you", and letting Corrin do just that?

Edited March 7, 2016 by Thane

[Shadow Knight]

Aren't Ryouma's literal last words "I'll believe you", and letting Corrin do just that?

He says I'm counting on you.... to the guy who betrayed his entire family after he was used as a pawn in a plot to kill his own mother, lied to him about having killed his sister, and conquered his entire kingdom.

....Yup

[Abysswalker25]

He says I'm counting on you.... to the guy who betrayed his entire family after he was used as a pawn in a plot to kill his own mother, lied to him about having killed his sister, and conquered his entire kingdom.

....Yup

Xander says the same thing too apparently. Everyone is counting on you.

[Tolvir]

Aren't Ryouma's literal last words "I'll believe you", and letting Corrin do just that?

Yeah but we also have multiple personality disorder Xander who contradicts himself at every turn, so...

Sucks because I really like Xander at the base of what he is supposed to be, its just his constant contradicting himself because of IS's bad job of keeping continuity with their stuff.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Tolvir

[Emblem Blade]

Aren't Ryouma's literal last words "I'll believe you", and letting Corrin do just that?

I think that was directed towards Corrin's will to find a way to bring peace to both nations. Corrin's 'main' weakness to me in Conquest is their sympathetic and caring nature which makes them a bit too loyal and naive when you are in a war.

Xander in Birthright when you fight him in Chapter 24, says to them that there is no time to be naive and so overly caring and protective when you are involved in a war. He also tells Corrin that as a leader and a prince, he (Xander) has no time to show sympathy towards any opposition no matter who they are and what their cause is and that is also what they (Corrin) lacks. It's not until Elise dies that Xander starts to see where he went wrong. Conquest is more militaristic and war-heavy so Corrin's flaw in heaving a caring and moral behavior is what tends to get him screwed up at times.

Xander is also torn about what Corrin is telling him about Garon and his (Xander's) own views on his 'father' in Birthright while at the same time knowing that it's his duty to put down any opposition that threatens his kingdom. So by that time, he's very unstable. In Conquest, he questions himself after each 'strange' quest that Garon is sending Corrin on. Near the end of Conquest, Xander's confusion is just about done.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Emblem Blade

[Shadow Knight]

Xander says the same thing too apparently. Everyone is counting on you.

Xander's makes a bit more sense though. He himself acknowledges

In Birthright as well

that peace must be restored no matter what the cost. More importantly he acknowledges that Garon is not perfect. (Though he doesn't rebel till the very end.) Whereas Kamui wants the same thing but Kamui wants to hang on to his ideals. Even in Conquest Kamui refuses to kill people unless he absolutely has to because he is a foolish idealist and boring all-loving hero.

Killing that guy after Ch.16 doesn't count. It's a one-off player choice and even after that Kamui's character is the same, the execution is never mentioned again.

Imo, when Xander says I'm counting on you he's essentially saying that he's trusting Kamui's viewpoint and path to peace, versus his own which means pacifying the population and instilling order at any cost. But that is why Xander is my favorite character in the game.

[Seanp12]

I think the Hoshido siblings in general, save Takumi, are all far too trusting of Corrin, but it's not explained why. During the duel, Ryoma probably could tell that Corrin isn't actually the kind of person who would murder his own sibling, and so Ryoma decides to commit seppuku both as a fulfillment of his code (having been captured by the enemy) and to allow Corrin to fulfill whatever plan he has. Corrin's plan is stupid, but I can understand why Ryoma decided to trust him, since that seems to be the way the Hoshido siblings are (once again, except for Takumi).