So why exactly do people call Conquest Corrin an idiot?(Conquest spoilers)

[Emblem Blade]

What allies? The only competent allies you can gather are Cheve's, and unfortunately they are very unlikely to listen to Corrin based on Hoshido already interacting with them. That leaves the Ice Tribe, which you stomp a mud hole in at level 7. If level 7 corrin and friends can beat them, what chance to they stand against Iago, Hans, Garon, and their collective forces? The problem is Conquest doesn't give enough rebel forces that are competent enough to fight against Nohr, we only get 1, and they are already aligned with Hoshido. Ike had two kingdom's forces, all the laguz, his own forces(which I imagine has more characters than are named, its just the ones that are named are the "leaders and elite") and even the Dragon Laguz. It was heavily stacked in Ike's favor at that point, as opposed to it being heavily stacked in Garon's.

Imposter Garon could also theoretically and more or less likely kill any individual that tried to even fight him head on. It took a double buffed Yato to even make a dent on him due to story-purposes. Imposter Garon even curbstomped RYOMA of all the people in Hoshido with ease...in ONE magical blast in the Birthright path. An Imposter managed to easily beat someone who's basically on par with Xander, the top leader of the Nohr Army who is at the same time being the eldest of the Nohr Family. If the reason why Nohr is feared is due to 'Garon''s sheer power that he has, you're going to need more than just brute power to defeat that kingdom. Right before 'Garon' sends you on your first suicide mission in Chapter 3, Elise mentions to Corrin how scary and ferocious her 'father' is and that at most the two of them can do is hope that he doesn't punish them (Corrin) too hard for their failure to kill Kaze and Rinka due to stubbornness.

Edited March 10, 2016 by Emblem Blade

[BruceLee]

What allies? The only competent allies you can gather are Cheve's, and unfortunately they are very unlikely to listen to Corrin based on Hoshido already interacting with them. That leaves the Ice Tribe, which you stomp a mud hole in at level 7. If level 7 corrin and friends can beat them, what chance to they stand against Iago, Hans, Garon, and their collective forces? The problem is Conquest doesn't give enough rebel forces that are competent enough to fight against Nohr, we only get 1, and they are already aligned with Hoshido. Ike had two kingdom's forces, all the laguz, his own forces(which I imagine has more characters than are named, its just the ones that are named are the "leaders and elite") and even the Dragon Laguz. It was heavily stacked in Ike's favor at that point, as opposed to it being heavily stacked in Garon's.

Even if he fails to immediately convince the cheve rebels, he can fight them off and then convince them afterwards, hell, Hans is perfect here. When he shows up strike him down(instead of letting him kill civilians while you watch), that should convince the rebels. Anyway, you are arguing details, i'm saying if Corrin tried he would find a way to rebel, or die trying. Just don't be a coward.

They are, but what about Takumi? Or the other Hoshidan nobles and generals? There's more to Hoshido than just Ryoma and Hinoka, since a rogue group of soldiers was able to kidnap Azura and escort her all the way to the Dragon Fortress.

The Ice Tribe doesn't fail because of Corrin, Corrin actually makes things better for them. In Conquest, they get convinced to stand down. In Birthright, they get absolutely destroyed by Garon and the Nohrian Military, to the point where Flora says they would've been wiped out completely if they weren't intimidated into trying to assassinate Corrin.

There is no military power that can stand up to Nohr in the story. Even on Birthright, everything you hear about the battles on the front lines say that Nohr is pushing further into Hoshidan territory and will win if I recall correctly. That's why you sneak into Krakenburg and assassinate Garon instead of just facing the entire Nohrian military up-front.

Same as above. And Ryoma is king, as long as he trusts you options open up. There were also anti-laguz racists in Crimea, didn't stop Ike from allying with them.

Edited March 10, 2016 by BruceLee

[Time the Crestfallen]

Ryoma is king, as long as he trusts you options open up. There were also anti-laguz racists in Crimea, didn't stop Ike from allying with them.

Ryoma being King didn't stop rogue soldiers from kidnapping Azura and taking her to Nohr. Even if Corrin changes his mind and sides with Hoshido, what's to stop Takumi, who at this point is balls-to-the-wall insane and probably whacks it to the thought of violently murdering you by shoving an arrow up your arse while Oboro cheers him on in the background, from killing you when no-one's watching?

[semolinaro]

I'm seeing the argument come up a lot that it's useless to overthrow Garon because he leads a powerful army and it would be hopeless to oppose him. But isn't that what makes an interesting story and protagonist? Facing impossible odds and trying to overcome them? That's what this game needed.

Yes, in a real-life situation, it would probably be dumb for Corrin to go against Garon. But this is a fictional story, where there's mages and dragons and bestial shapeshifters, anything is possible, especially in a fantasy opera like FE. It won't be easy, characters will be sacrificed trying to achieve this near-impossible goal, but having Corrin sitting around and moping while the very people he is trying to save are getting killed (due to his spinelessness) makes for a dull protagonist and borderline ridiculous plot. Had Corrin had the guts to lead his army against Garon as opposed to Hoshido, the kingdom he wants to bring peace to, we would have had a dark, gritty and twisty plot. Even if it meant he had to go through Xander at some point, all the better. The plot keeps trying to protect us from the tragedies of Corrin's situation (and then decides to randomly throw in tragic moments out of the blue, and that's a real shame, because Corrin's situation is really tragic. He betrayed his birth family and sided with the people who killed his mother. And while IS advertised the game to have Corrin going through the dark reality of his choice, all the action and twists happen in the first six chapters. After that, the plot does nothing to evoke sadness or tragedy over what happened because it's trying to protect Corrin from doing anything controversial, which in turn, makes his actions even MORE controversial. It's just a mess.

The bigger the risks involved, the better. Characters who make decisions with overwhelming odds lay the groundwork for a great story. Characters who are too cowardly to take chances (and don't even give good justification as to why they won't take the chance) are generic and bland. I'm sorry Corrin, but this applies to you.

Edited March 10, 2016 by semolinaro

[BruceLee]

Ryoma being King didn't stop rogue soldiers from kidnapping Azura and taking her to Nohr. Even if Corrin changes his mind and sides with Hoshido, what's to stop Takumi, who at this point is balls-to-the-wall insane and probably whacks it to the thought of violently murdering you by shoving an arrow up your arse while Oboro cheers him on in the background, from killing you when no-one's watching?

Then you kill the rogues? Knock Takumi out? He can be reasoned with later, after he sees your accomplishments against Garon.

Again, details. Just don't let Corrin be a coward. Should Ike have handed over Elincia when his fort was surrounded by Daein? He and his mercenaries would have died if it wasn't for being rescued by the laguz. That's what i want from Corrin, fight or die.

Edited March 10, 2016 by BruceLee

[Hunter Nightblood]

Knock Takumi out? He can be reasoned with later, after he sees your accomplishments against Garon.

Takumi's possesed in Conquest. There are voices in his head telling him to kill you. I'm fairly certain resoning with him is out of the question.

[Emblem Blade]

Then you kill the rogues? Knock Takumi out? He can be reasoned with later, after he sees your accomplishments against Garon.

Again, details. Just don't let Corrin be a coward. Should Ike have handed over Elincia when his fort was surrounded by Daein? He and his mercenaries would have died if it wasn't for being rescued by the laguz. That's what i want from Corrin, fight or die.

Ike arguably did fairly well against most of those generic soldiers in the end cutscene battle of Chapter 8. Only got hit 2-3 times while beating the 5 enemies that came at him one after another with him unable to get a break, he even had the weapon disadvantage. Then Mist comes in and 'ruins' the atmosphere out of concern for her older brother and only family she has left when Ike is clearly ok taking out the Daein brutes that are invading his team's base.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Then you kill the rogues? Knock Takumi out? He can be reasoned with later, after he sees your accomplishments against Garon.

Again, details. Just don't let Corrin be a coward. Should Ike have handed over Elincia when his fort was surrounded by Daein? He and his mercenaries would have died if it wasn't for being rescued by the laguz. That's what i want from Corrin, fight or die.

How are you going to reason with Takumi when he's currently being possessed by Anankos and is explicitly stated to be acting wildly out of character?

Believe me, I want Corrin to be rebellious just as much as you do, but a lot of the methods explained in this topic tend more towards 'what ifs' and fanfiction. Within the context of the story given to us by the Devs, there's no real way to form a meaningful rebellion against Garon, let alone one that has a chance of succeeding.

Edited March 10, 2016 by Phillius

[BrightBow]

Ike arguably did fairly well against most of those generic soldiers in the end cutscene battle of Chapter 8. Only got hit 2-3 times while beating the 5 enemies that came at him one after another with him unable to get a break, he even had the weapon disadvantage. Then Mist comes in and 'ruins' the atmosphere out of concern for her older brother and only family she has left when Ike is clearly ok taking out the Daein brutes that are invading his team's base.

Are you serious? Ike was on his lest legs, constantly panting. And even Titania was already down for the count. The Greil Mercenaries simply aren't that powerful by themselves. They are just a small mercenary group after all.

Edited March 10, 2016 by BrightBow

[Together We Ride]

There is no military power that can stand up to Nohr in the story. Even on Birthright, everything you hear about the battles on the front lines say that Nohr is pushing further into Hoshidan territory and will win if I recall correctly. That's why you sneak into Krakenburg and assassinate Garon instead of just facing the entire Nohrian military up-front.

...then use that military against him perhaps? Admittedly I have yet to complete Conquest so I don't know how loyal Nohrians are strictly to Garon, but I'm sure if Xander, the strongest knight and general in Nohr, crown prince, and overall far more reasonable man than his father, was openly opposing Garon then some of that army would choose to follow you and rebel. With a chunk of the Nohrian army, other Nohrian rebels, and all of Hoshido (except Mokushu I guess) fighting with you, I'd say it's very plausible to dethrone Garon.

And even if that somehow isn't possible, why can't you sneak into Krakenburg to assassinate Garon in Conquest as well? Once the Nohrian siblings are convinced that Garon is a big evil pile of goo (which absolutely would have been much easier than Azura made it out to be), it should be very easy for them to get into their own home to face Garon.

Basically what I'm saying is that even within the context of the story, there were still a lot of ways to stop Garon in Conquest without having to destroy another nation so he can sit on a chair...

Edited March 10, 2016 by Together We Ride

[BruceLee]

How are you going to reason with Takumi when he's currently being possessed by Anankos and is explicitly stated to be acting wildly out of character?

Believe me, I want Corrin to be rebellious just as much as you do, but a lot of the methods explained in this topic tend more towards 'what ifs' and fanfiction. Within the context of the story given to us by the Devs, there's no real way to form a meaningful rebellion against Garon, let alone one that has a chance of succeeding.

Then you kill Takumi, but i don't see what that has to do with what i'm saying.

I see what you're saying, the writers have made it so that we are to believe if Corrin tries anything he dies, just to further their plot agenda. But if that's the plot we have, i would rather have Corrin rebel and die a hero, than be a coward who can only clench his fists while civilians are killed in front of him.

That should say enough about how much i dislike the writing.

Edited March 10, 2016 by BruceLee

[Emblem Blade]

Are you serious? Ike was on his lest legs, constantly panting. And even Titania was already down for the count. The Greil Mercenaries simply aren't that powerful by themselves. They are just a small mercenary group after all.

Still, he wasn't ready to give up even if he was on the verge of collapsing from fatigue. That's the determination that just about any FE Lord needs, the sheer will and dedication to your cause and purpose using everything you got without giving in to the impossible odds.

[Tolvir]

Still, he wasn't ready to give up even if he was on the verge of collapsing from fatigue. That's the determination that just about any FE Lord needs, the sheer will and dedication to your cause and purpose using everything you got without giving in to the impossible odds.

Well that is why I think he is the best lord to date. Ike is a great leader, doesn't give up, and tries to make the most out of all situations, but that is another topic entirely. The thing is that determination is what made Ike special, if you start adding that to each and every lord, then it is no longer is unique. Each lord needs to have their own identity and personality so that we don't have cookie cutter lords like Roy and Marth, who are essentially the same character with different hair color.

Edited March 10, 2016 by Tolvir

[Time the Crestfallen]

...then use that military against him perhaps? Admittedly I have yet to complete Conquest so I don't know how loyal Nohrians are strictly to Garon, but I'm sure if Xander, the strongest knight and general in Nohr, crown prince, and overall far more reasonable man than his father, was openly opposing Garon then some of that army would choose to follow you and rebel. With a chunk of the Nohrian army, other Nohrian rebels, and all of Hoshido (except Mokushu I guess) fighting with you, I'd say it's very plausible to dethrone Garon.

And even if that somehow isn't possible, why can't you sneak into Krakenburg to assassinate Garon in Conquest as well? Once the Nohrian siblings are convinced that Garon is a big evil pile of goo (which absolutely would have been much easier than Azura made it out to be), it should be very easy for them to get into their own home to face Garon.

Basically what I'm saying is that even within the context of the story, there were still a lot of ways to stop Garon in Conquest without having to destroy another nation so he can sit on a chair...

I won't spoil you, but the idea of Xander (or any of the siblings for that matter) rebelling in anything less than the most extreme circumstances proves that common sense ain't so common.

It takes him being revealed as a slime monster for any of them to rebel against him and other than that, no-one is shown to be at all disloyal to Garon.

Then you kill Takumi, but i don't see what that has to do with what i'm saying.

I see what you're saying, the writers have made it so that we are to believe if Corrin tries anything he dies, just to further their plot agenda. But if that's the plot we have, i would rather have Corrin rebel and die a hero, than be a coward who can only clench his fists while civilians are killed in front of him.

That should say enough about how much i dislike the writing.

But then they'd just think you joined them to assassinate them or something

That's basically it. Even though rebelling should be an option (albeit a difficult one), the writers just railroad you into doing what services the plot they designed.

Edited March 10, 2016 by Phillius

[BruceLee]

But then they'd just think you joined them to assassinate them or something

That's basically it. Even though rebelling should be an option (albeit a difficult one), the writers just railroad you into doing what services the plot they designed.

Um it's self defense, as long as one of your siblings sees Takumi attacking you and vouches for you it should work out. But we're side-tracking here lol.

And in turn they made Corrin come off as a coward.

Edited March 10, 2016 by BruceLee

[Emblem Blade]

Well that is why I think he is the best lord to date. Ike is a great leader, doesn't give up, and tries to make the most out of all situations, but that is another topic entirely. The thing is that determination is what made Ike special, if you start adding that to each and every lord, then it is no longer is unique. Each lord needs to have their own identity and personality so that we don't have cookie cutter lords like Roy and Marth, who are essentially the same character with different hair color.

Only issue is...that is what some other people on this thread want out of Corrin (being determined and taking risks regardless of the situation). If Corrin were to be even smarter than he is and take huge risks he would be even more of an expy to Awakening's Robin, that isn't needed. Corrin has leadership qualities in areas that aren't generally well enjoyed due to beliefs from other people.

[Seanp12]

People keep saying they want Ike, but they keep describing a person who sounds like Robin, the never-fail, always-beat-the-odds tactical genius. (Which is basically RD Ike.)

Which someone else just decided to mention. I feel like Severa when the supporting unit kill-steals.

Birthright's the underdog story--the same one we've seen in just about every Fire Emblem to date. I don't mind a little variety. What's more, Corrin vs. Garon's armies is probably on a larger scale than Greil Mercenaries vs. Daein. Probably closer to PoR Greil Mercenaries vs. Begnion.

[Emblem Blade]

People keep saying they want Ike, but they keep describing a person who sounds like Robin, the never-fail, always-beat-the-odds tactical genius. (Which is basically RD Ike.)

Which someone else just decided to mention. I feel like Severa when the supporting unit kill-steals.

Birthright's the underdog story--the same one we've seen in just about every Fire Emblem to date. I don't mind a little variety. What's more, Corrin vs. Garon's armies is probably on a larger scale than Greil Mercenaries vs. Daein. Probably closer to PoR Greil Mercenaries vs. Begnion.

I would feel as if it should be Greil Mercenaries against Begnion if it were large scaled regarding Birthright. Begnion has the largest army which says a lot when you consider that said army is also the strongest on the continent. You even have a unique case where you have to face the strongest general of Nohr (aka Prince Xander) which is similar to facing Zelgius as the Black Knight before you reach your destination. In both cases, both are incredibly strong leaders leading very powerful nations and their opponents are relatively smaller or weaker in comparison.

People (including myself) should just accept the fact that Corrin makes themselves unique by their personality and actions (just like every FE Lord before them) and that they don't need to be like any other FE Lord before them as they wouldn't be who they were described to be. Sure Corrin is dumb, book dumb more than not, but they're also intelligent even if their actions on the battlefield are highly questionable.

[Ebony]

I won't spoil you, but the idea of Xander (or any of the siblings for that matter) rebelling in anything less than the most extreme circumstances proves that common sense ain't so common.

It takes him being revealed as a slime monster for any of them to rebel against him and other than that, no-one is shown to be at all disloyal to Garon.

hella revelation spoilers

Okay not even then. Xander and Leo literally walk in on Garon laughing and saying how he'll destroy Hoshido and Nohr. Leo's like, "man he's gone insane." Xander's repose is essentially, "nah he's just having a bad day. Let's wait to see what happens later."

wtf xander

[Time the Crestfallen]

hella revelation spoilers

Okay not even then. Xander and Leo literally walk in on Garon laughing and saying how he'll destroy Hoshido and Nohr. Leo's like, "man he's gone insane." Xander's repose is essentially, "nah he's just having a bad day. Let's wait to see what happens later."

wtf xander

Well he did mention the slime monster bit in his own post, so it isn't a spoiler (for him anyway).

[Ebony]

Well he did mention the slime monster bit in his own post, so it isn't a spoiler (for him anyway).

Still spoilering it in case anyone didn't wanna read it.

[NekoKnight]

People keep saying they want Ike, but they keep describing a person who sounds like Robin, the never-fail, always-beat-the-odds tactical genius. (Which is basically RD Ike.)

I wouldn't want this. I want a protagonist who works hard to achieve his goals, not someone who never fails. Not to blow my own trumpet but the rewrite I'm doing has Kamui make several mistakes that lead to tragic results. But he's an active player in his own story, for a change.

hella revelation spoilers

Okay not even then. Xander and Leo literally walk in on Garon laughing and saying how he'll destroy Hoshido and Nohr. Leo's like, "man he's gone insane." Xander's repose is essentially, "nah he's just having a bad day. Let's wait to see what happens later."

wtf xander

Seriously? My opinion of Marx drops even more.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Seriously? My opinion of Marx drops even more.

Like I've said, the plot railroads you to the conclusion, no matter how much the character's suffer for it in terms of characterisation and intelligence.

[NekoKnight]

This all reminds me of a certain character from Radiant Dawn:

Sanaki: Hetzel… I had thought that you alone might be above Lekain’s foul conspiracy! It saddens me to see you at his side.

Hetzel: N-no, Apostle Sanaki! I–

Sanaki: I didn’t ask for excuses! You fight alongside Lekain. That’s more proof than I’ll ever need.

Hetzel: …You are right, I fight with him. I had no choice. But…please, understand that I’ve always done my best to honor and respect Your Majesty.

Sanaki: Then how do you explain my confinement in Mainal Cathedral?

Hetzel: I-I didn’t do anything! It was all Lekain! I didn’t know anything about it, and only heard later…

Sanaki: And when you did hear of it, why didn’t you stop it?

Hetzel: I…couldn’t. Actually, I could have, but I…didn’t say anything. It was the same with Misaha, and the Serenes Massacre… I…

Sanaki: …didn’t say anything. In other words, you stood by as my grandmother and the Serenes people were killed!

Hetzel: P-please forgive me…

Hetzel: Wait… I remember you… You were one of the dracoknights that fled to Daein, defying the senators… You opposed the almighty Begnion and the word of the goddess… Why? Why would you defy such power?

Haar: You could live another lifetime, and you’d still never understand.

Hetzel: I don’t understand any of you. How can you oppose the goddess? It’s only natural that people live to please the gods… the weak follow the strong.

Jill: Strong, weak… It doesn’t matter. I fight on the side of my conscience, and have yet to regret my battles.

Hetzel: Mortals cannot measure up to gods. Any child knows as much. Why do you not kneel before her?

Astrid: That would be throwing away my own beliefs to live a life of blind obedience. I stopped doing that three years ago, and I’ve never looked back.

They should have made Hetzel the protagonist of that game.

Hah, I see Awakening isn't the only game that loaned characters to Fates. Hetzel was reborn as Nohrrin.

Radiant Dawn hit some snags on the plot but at least they got the spirit of Fire Emblem down pat. Cowards in that game are called out for what they are.

Edited March 10, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Emblem Blade]

I wouldn't want this. I want a protagonist who works hard to achieve his goals, not someone who never fails. Not to blow my own trumpet but the rewrite I'm doing has Kamui make several mistakes that lead to tragic results. But he's an active player in his own story, for a change.

Seriously? My opinion of Marx drops even more.

My respect for Xander remains the same. Although the fact that even after concrete evidence that the being he once knew isn't the same being in front of him makes me question his intelligence after he's seen so much trash because of the 'Garon' he placed his trust in. Said evidence is seeing the slimy imposter and having knowledge that the 'Garon' he's currently serving isn't acting like the one he once knew in the past.

That part regarding Corrin reminds me of Micaiah in RD...hard worker somewhat but her plans keep failing until she sides with Ike.