Sorcerers vs. Witches

[Emblem Blade]

Countermagic When the enemy triggers the battle and inflicts magical damage, the enemy receives the same damage

Counter When an adjacent enemy triggers the battle and inflicts damage, the enemy receives the same damage

Are you literally ending phase by a robe, and not clicking that brave weapon to flat ohko?

Cause that's the only way this makes sense at all.

Ok, thanks for correcting me on the skills.

*Brave Weapons will trigger either or both skills respectfully per strike if the conditions are met, you're still risking being defeated by a random enemy after you turn ends.

*Freeze/Silence still exists, you can still Freeze/Silence a unit with high Resistance provided your Skill/Luck is high enough and if you don't stack enough Resistance, you can get hit by either at a 70% chance at least. Hello Sakura and Elise as two common 1st Gen Females who can use said staff.

*Right now Fates is more of a physical meta, not a magical meta for PvP (95% of the online teams I see constantly are all physical class users). Unless you run a Sorcerer with Galeforce to Warp to safety, once your Sorcerer ends their turn and in comes the enemy turn, better hope the enemy doesn't OTKO or OHKO your unit before they can act again.

*Many people can acknowledge that Galeforce got nerfed, it won't work for the main attacker if the Dual Strike Partner defeats the enemy anymore so no OHKO on a target then Warp away if your partner KO'd the victim instead of you doing it. You get a very close 99-100% OTKO with a Dual Strike Partner KO assist at the cost of the main attacker not being able to use Galeforce.

[joshcja]

Ok, thanks for correcting me on the skills.

*Brave Weapons will trigger either or both skills respectfully per strike if the conditions are met, you're still risking being defeated by a random enemy after you turn ends.

*Freeze/Silence still exists, you can still Freeze/Silence a unit with high Resistance provided your Skill/Luck is high enough and if you don't stack enough Resistance, you can get hit by either at a 70% chance at least. Hello Sakura and Elise as two common 1st Gen Females who can use said staff.

*Right now Fates is more of a physical meta, not a magical meta for PvP (95% of the online teams I see constantly are all physical class users). Unless you run a Sorcerer with Galeforce to Warp to safety, once your Sorcerer ends their turn and in comes the enemy turn, better hope the enemy doesn't OTKO or OHKO your unit before they can act again.

*Many people can acknowledge that Galeforce got nerfed, it won't work for the main attacker if the Dual Strike Partner defeats the enemy anymore so no OHKO on a target then Warp away if your partner KO'd the victim instead of you doing it. You get a very close 99-100% OTKO with a Dual Strike Partner KO assist at the cost of the main attacker not being able to use Galeforce.

That sounds like a lot more work than killing every single threat the moment a unit gets within 25 tiles of my army.

I generally operate on the principal of "dead units deal 0 damage" so I ignore whatever the fuck this meta is and play instant death mode. So far no losses, so I'd call it a successful build.

Edited April 8, 2016 by joshcja

[Emblem Blade]

That sounds like a lot more work than killing every single threat the moment a unit gets within 25 tiles of my army.

Understandable.

It also means you're taking more risks and effort into account making a unit have 99+ Attack Power by only specializing in Strength/Magic and not caring a whole lot for your Defense/Resistance once Enemy Turn comes after the battle has started. We can all compare stats and builds to show who's better in each of our opinions and said thoughts will either be complimented or argued against. I personally run a balanced stat distribution using statues with extentions with the Luck stat being an exception. Your builds for example on how you're defining that Sorcerer is 'god' tier with Berserker is one that could be debated if that is entirely doable without any drawbacks. You showed an absurd damage output of 100+ on a magical unit who will can come close to OTKOing enemies with 60+ Res with a cap of 45-55 HP as well on those who have high Resistance stat caps, but that pleasure of OTKOing the enemy is on your turn whereas if an enemy is smart enough to take advantage of your stats and abilities on their turn, if they OTKO your powerhouse, you lost an essential unit (for that online battle only). If you're talking about the power advantage and not taking any disadvantages with the power builds into the equation, then yes, I can say that your view that Sorcerers are up there in the top best classes viable for PvP and PvE. I would be very wary that a max of 50 HP and 26-29 Defense with 30-37 Resistance on Magic-Only users (ignoring statues increasing the stat cap on all but HP) is a risk on Enemy Turn during online battles where enemies who aren't yet in range of battling you are then able to fight you and OTKO your main attackers is a pretty high risk-high return offer (enemy magical RH users will like messing with you on their turn if they're smart enough once they enter attack range).

[joshcja]

Understandable.

It also means you're taking more risks and effort into account making a unit have 99+ Attack Power by only specializing in Strength/Magic and not caring a whole lot for your Defense/Resistance once Enemy Turn comes after the battle has started. We can all compare stats and builds to show who's better in each of our opinions and said thoughts will either be complimented or argued against. I personally run a balanced stat distribution using statues with extentions with the Luck stat being an exception. Your builds for example on how you're defining that Sorcerer is 'god' tier with Berserker is one that could be debated if that is entirely doable without any drawbacks. You showed an absurd damage output of 100+ on a magical unit who will can come close to OTKOing enemies with 60+ Res with a cap of 45-55 HP as well on those who have high Resistance stat caps, but that pleasure of OTKOing the enemy is on your turn whereas if an enemy is smart enough to take advantage of your stats and abilities on their turn, if they OTKO your powerhouse, you lost an essential unit (for that online battle only). If you're talking about the power advantage and not taking any disadvantages with the power builds into the equation, then yes, I can say that your view that Sorcerers are up there in the top best classes viable for PvP and PvE. I would be very wary that a max of 50 HP and 26-29 Defense with 30-37 Resistance on Magic-Only users (ignoring statues increasing the stat cap on all but HP) is a risk on Enemy Turn during online battles where enemies who aren't yet in range of battling you are then able to fight you and OTKO your main attackers is a pretty high risk-high return offer (enemy magical RH users will like messing with you on their turn if they're smart enough once they enter attack range).

I only field 1-2 flat nukes for spot removal, it's straight overkill to bring more. Stacking up forged effectiveness weapons and braves on leads gets ORKO's on 90% of this game.

As for defense I'll care about that when "the meta" realizes not stacking 12 move on leads is an automatic loss to anyone who does. Till then I'm getting away with murder.

By care about defense I mean field balisticians and bow knights to up the kill range (70% CoS on the win sucks though), if this game ever forces tanking I'm out, the only remotely "reliable" way to stack that shit is miracle+aegis+pavise and I would rather flip a coin 10 times IRL.

Edit: To clarify my builds snipe range is "the map" for all intents and purposes, 25 tiles is just where the game ends 100% of the time if someone is optimistic enough to leave a unit there to try and EP.

Edited April 8, 2016 by joshcja

[Emblem Blade]

I only field 1-2 flat nukes for spot removal, it's straight overkill to bring more.

As for "defense" I'll care about that when "the meta" realizes not stacking 12 move on leads is an automatic loss to anyone who does.

By care about that I mean field balisticians, if this game ever forces miracle tanking I'm out.

What's wrong about the movement range? On your turn it's fine, if you actually move your units after the opponent moves theirs. It becomes a war of 'first to attack properly wins' if both armies have 8+ Movement on everyone before Support Movement (which comes from Outlaws, Ninjas and Elite Ninjas, and Mounted units not named Mechanists).

The Ballistician crusades (as in when the seals become unlimited), are still 2 weeks away from us, so take confidence that preparations can still be made. Long-range combatants are never fun to defeat if units lack a lot of HP and the needed Defense/Resistance to survive while trying to get to them.

If players buy Ballistician units from others or use the logbook to make multiple Ballistician Avatars, then yes, countermeasures are going to become difficult (varying by the opponent).

[joshcja]

What's wrong about the movement range? On your turn it's fine, if you actually move your units after the opponent moves theirs. It becomes a war of 'first to attack properly wins' if both armies have 8+ Movement on everyone before Support Movement (which comes from Outlaws, Ninjas and Elite Ninjas, and Mounted units not named Mechanists).

The Ballistician crusades (as in when the seals become unlimited), are still 2 weeks away from us, so take confidence that preparations can still be made. Long-range combatants are never fun to defeat if units lack a lot of HP and the needed Defense/Resistance to survive while trying to get to them.

If players buy Ballistician units from others or use the logbook to make multiple Ballistician Avatars, then yes, countermeasures are going to become difficult (varying by the opponent).

Yes, that's why I actually use the "garbage" move+1 skill to ensure the first strike, and the win.

It's a pretty big one tile.

Edit: the balistician thing was purely brought up as a way for move+1 instakill, to CT move +1 instakill. It's not really applicable to standard builds (I dont even know how standard builds manage to fit move+1 into those overcrowded as fuck skillsets lol. There's already so many slashed skills on em)

Edited April 8, 2016 by joshcja

[Emblem Blade]

Yes, that's why I actually use the "garbage" move+1 skill to ensure the first strike, and the win.

It's a pretty big one tile.

Edit: the balistician thing was purely brought up as a way for move+1 instakill, to CT move +1 instakill. It's not really applicable to standard builds (I dont even know how standard builds manage to fit move+1 into those overcrowded as fuck skillsets lol. There's already so many slashed skills on em)

At least Ballisticians don't have a very long-distance attack radius like regular ballista turrets do. At most they have 2-4 tile attack radius which isn't bad defensively when supported by defensive allies.

[FluffyWarlock]

Sorry for the bump, but would it be viable to get Wary Fighter on Sorcerer, since they're essentially magic tanks?

I mean, it's not like they'll double most of the time, anyway.

Edited April 27, 2016 by FluffyWarlock

[Jakkun]

Sorry for the bump, but would it be viable to get Wary Fighter on Sorcerer, since they're essentially magic tanks?

I mean, it's not like they'll double most of the time, anyway.

yes, especially if you used a Forged Nosferatu as your main form of attack.

[Rezzy]

Witch seems the superior class to me, lady-locked aside. Sorcs aren't tanky enough to really tank like in Awakening, and Witches have superior Magic, Skill, and especially Speed. Being able to reliably double is the best way to have a good offense. Witches also get the invaluable Warp skill, which is debatably the most OP skill in the game.

[Emblem Blade]

Witch seems the superior class to me, lady-locked aside. Sorcs aren't tanky enough to really tank like in Awakening, and Witches have superior Magic, Skill, and especially Speed. Being able to reliably double is the best way to have a good offense. Witches also get the invaluable Warp skill, which is debatably the most OP skill in the game.

Warp Scroll exists which removes the Warp advantage between characters that can use them both player-controlled and enemy alike. Wary Fighter can somewhat remove the double attacking issue. It comes down to how players use the two classes and how they are set up that makes a difference to me at this point now.

Max Stat Sorcerer w/o modifiers: 50/25/35/26/29/26/29/33

Max Stat Witch w/o modifiers: 50/25/36/27/34/2826/29

*Sorcerer by default has a +3 Def/+4 Res Lead over the Witch which is more durable if you can put Wary Fighter on to not get doubled by an enemy by normal means.

*Witch by default has a +1 Mag/+1 Skl/+5 Spd/+3 Lck Lead over the Sorcerer, which is more offensively built non-modifier-wise even if the two classes ran the exact same skills.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Emblem Blade

[Jakkun]

Witch seems the superior class to me, lady-locked aside. Sorcs aren't tanky enough to really tank like in Awakening, and Witches have superior Magic, Skill, and especially Speed. Being able to reliably double is the best way to have a good offense. Witches also get the invaluable Warp skill, which is debatably the most OP skill in the game.

Also Witches have godlike pair-up bonuses. For example my wife Rhajat gives me +7 Mag & +6 Spd, which, in combination with my Yato and Horse Spirit, gives me ridiculous levels of Spd/Mag.

@Emblem Blade: This may sound gimmicky, but if you're using a mage unit specifically for Nostanking, I think an Oni Chieftain with Wary Fighter & Shadowgift would be an interesting idea.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Jakkun

[Shadow Mir]

Witch seems the superior class to me, lady-locked aside. Sorcs aren't tanky enough to really tank like in Awakening, and Witches have superior Magic, Skill, and especially Speed. Being able to reliably double is the best way to have a good offense. Witches also get the invaluable Warp skill, which is debatably the most OP skill in the game.

Agreed.

Warp Scroll exists which removes the Warp advantage between characters that can use them both player-controlled and enemy alike. Wary Fighter can somewhat remove the double attacking issue. It comes down to how players use the two classes and how they are set up that makes a difference to me at this point now.

Max Stat Sorcerer w/o modifiers: 50/25/35/26/29/26/29/33

Max Stat Witch w/o modifiers: 50/25/36/27/34/2826/29

*Sorcerer by default has a +3 Def/+9 Res Lead over the Witch which is more durable if you can put Wary Fighter on to not get doubled by an enemy by normal means.

*Witch by default has a +1 Mag/+1 Skl/+5 Spd/+3 Lck Lead over the Sorcerer, which is more offensively built non-modifier-wise even if the two classes ran the exact same skills.

Erm, Sorcerers' Res advantage over Witches is only +4.

[Thor Odinson]

Witch's animation so smooth I love it so much

Shame it's gender locked, though

[maninbluejumpsuit]

Witch's animation so smooth I love it so much

It's cool and stylish, though there is that odd pause after doing a standard attack.

Only disadvantage witch truly has is it's female only, and you have to give up a skill slot to use nosferatu. The barely-lower def, and res doesn't mean much to me with all that extra speed, and their hidden crit and avo bonus just means they're practically magic swordmasters.

[Emblem Blade]

Agreed.

Erm, Sorcerers' Res advantage over Witches is only +4.

Sorry, I was falling asleep at campus when I was typing that and I had to rush home before I crashed. Corrected the mistake, thanks for informing me about it.

Also Witches have godlike pair-up bonuses. For example my wife Rhajat gives me +7 Mag & +6 Spd, which, in combination with my Yato and Horse Spirit, gives me ridiculous levels of Spd/Mag.

@Emblem Blade: This may sound gimmicky, but if you're using a mage unit specifically for Nostanking, I think an Oni Chieftain with Wary Fighter & Shadowgift would be an interesting idea.

As long as you're able to make use of what you create, it'll be fun for you. That build sounds entertaining although I'm not a huge fan of using characters who's main offensive stat is Magic (why do I see so much Tomebreaker these days on enemy streetpass teams!?) but I might give it a try. Shadowgift sadly got nerfed due to only one Dark Tome existing. I wish Shadowgift was a skill that allowed tome/scroll-using units to get their Tome/Scroll weapon rank to A at most while it was equipped (if Shadowgift was unequipped the the Tome/Scroll weapon rank of that user would return to the rank it was before Shadowgift was equipped) seeing how the skill has limited potential seeing how Nos can't crit, follow-up or activate offensive trigger skills (according to Serenes Forest) and Nos being the only Dark Tome in Fates.

[Jakkun]

As long as you're able to make use of what you create, it'll be fun for you. That build sounds entertaining although I'm not a huge fan of using characters who's main offensive stat is Magic (why do I see so much Tomebreaker these days on enemy streetpass teams!?) but I might give it a try. Shadowgift sadly got nerfed due to only one Dark Tome existing. I wish Shadowgift was a skill that allowed tome/scroll-using units to get their Tome/Scroll weapon rank to A at most while it was equipped (if Shadowgift was unequipped the the Tome/Scroll weapon rank of that user would return to the rank it was before Shadowgift was equipped) seeing how the skill has limited potential seeing how Nos can't crit, follow-up or activate offensive trigger skills (according to Serenes Forest) and Nos being the only Dark Tome in Fates.

I'm still holding out that maybe Mire will be added in Future DLC at some point. Apparently its in the game's files.

But yeah we need more Dark Magic, at least give us Goetia and Mire back.

[maninbluejumpsuit]

I'm still holding out that maybe Mire will be added in Future DLC at some point. Apparently its in the game's files.

But yeah we need more Dark Magic, at least give us Goetia and Mire back.

Wasn't mire a max range of 10? If it were to come back somehow, my money is on it being brought down to 6 with a 1-2 deadzone, no follow-ups, no dual strikes, no offensive trigger clauses. Probably no crits either.

Edited April 27, 2016 by maninbluejumpsuit

[Emblem Blade]

Wasn't mire a max range of 10? If it were to come back somehow, my money is on it being brought down to 6 with a 1-2 deadzone, no follow-ups, no dual strikes, no offensive trigger clauses. Probably no crits either.

Mire in Awakening prevented you from activating offensive trigger skills or using follow-up attacks (can't double attack at all) or using Dual Strikes (Partner can't follow-up), the tome also had a range of 3-10 tiles so it can't be used if the enemy targetted is 1-2 tiles away from you. The only issue is the fact that 65% Hit on a tome that can't be forged makes it questionable against enemies who have a high Avoid Rate and/or Tomebreaker.

[garrisoncade_3576]

I like the designs of both.

[Zerosabers]

Witch, I love that outfit so much. It helps that Witches are awesome in general.

[Rezzy]

Warp being available as a scroll is a bit irrelevant, if we're considering skills at all in the mix, since we can get all the Sorc skills from My Castle as well. So we'd have to go strictly by stats, if we don't count skills which would give the Warp point to Witches.

I almost wish Warp wasn't a skill. It's an OP level almost to GaleForce, where you pretty much want to have it on every unit. Replicate is almost to that level, but sharing HP with your clone, and therefore being quite vulnerable, gives it a little bit of balance.

[maninbluejumpsuit]

Mire in Awakening prevented you from activating offensive trigger skills or using follow-up attacks (can't double attack at all) or using Dual Strikes (Partner can't follow-up), the tome also had a range of 3-10 tiles so it can't be used if the enemy targetted is 1-2 tiles away from you. The only issue is the fact that 65% Hit on a tome that can't be forged makes it questionable against enemies who have a high Avoid Rate and/or Tomebreaker.

All for good reasons. I just anticipate they'd bring down the max range even further if they were to bring mire back. Not like it really needs to be hindered anymore.

Warp being available as a scroll is a bit irrelevant, if we're considering skills at all in the mix, since we can get all the Sorc skills from My Castle as well. So we'd have to go strictly by stats, if we don't count skills which would give the Warp point to Witches.

I almost wish Warp wasn't a skill. It's an OP level almost to GaleForce, where you pretty much want to have it on every unit. Replicate is almost to that level, but sharing HP with your clone, and therefore being quite vulnerable, gives it a little bit of balance.

It's pretty gross how both the original, and the replicate copy can each use their own warp.

Map control, with optional super mobile dual striking nosferatu tanking where you need it if both the original, and replica stand shoulder to shoulder... I feel guilty doing that. Makes awakening galeforce seem somewhat tame.

Well that was sorta off topic.

Like I said earlier, witch's one real flaw is having one less skill than sorcs if you want to use nosferatu. Other than that, witch is just better.

Edited April 28, 2016 by maninbluejumpsuit

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Awakening Galeforce is way more broken than anything in fates simply because Rescue Staff in Awakening is more bullshit(buyable with potentially whole map coverage)

Granted its impossible to balance Rescue Staff anyway. We only get 2 pairs with 4 use in Conquest and its still horrendously overpowered

Edited April 28, 2016 by JSND

[Emblem Blade]

All for good reasons. I just anticipate they'd bring down the max range even further if they were to bring mire back. Not like it really needs to be hindered anymore.

It's pretty gross how both the original, and the replicate copy can each use their own warp.

Map control, with optional super mobile dual striking nosferatu tanking where you need it if both the original, and replica stand shoulder to shoulder... I feel guilty doing that. Makes awakening galeforce seem somewhat tame.

Well that was sorta off topic.

Like I said earlier, witch's one real flaw is having one less skill than sorcs if you want to use nosferatu. Other than that, witch is just better.

'One less skill'?