Is Orochi the Illyana of Fates?

[Book Bro]

"We don't get the clumsy/dumb fighter"

We totally did. The unlucky Fighter right there?

"the serene Pegasus Knight."

Granted yeah we didn't get this one, although i don't even know what exactly is a serene pegasus knight.

lol totally forgot about Arthur, that's how much he annoys me

For the Peg knight I was thinking like Florina, Sumia, actually maybe this isn't as common as I thought.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Its actually kinda weird. The amount of Pegasus Knight that is written in a group of 3 is very common in the series(Fates, Telius, and Thracia 776 is the only one without Pegasus Trio, which is 4 out of 14 games)

But then you realize we only had like 6 unique Pegasus trio, and one of them(Sumia Cordelia and the fuck is that girls name) doesn't even qualify as one

The original Pegasus trio shows up in no less than 5 games

[Quintessence]

But the Pegasus Trio are generally sisters like Florina, Fiora and Farina, and Palla, Catria and Est.

Stuff like Vanessa, Tana and Syrene, and Marcia, Elincia, Tanith and Sigrun have some tweaks and don't follow strictly the archetype.

Also, no Orochi is not Ilyana. Ilyana is super average and Orochi has high Magic and skill. I haven't used Orochi at all but so far I think Ilyana is better.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Yeah i'll be honest that Vanessa Tana Syrene is only there because i shoehorned it

Also i don't even mentioned Marcia Elincia Tanith and Sigrun since i forgot Sigrun even exist

[Radiant Dragon]

Now that I think about, if we include FE9!Elincia as a pegasus knight, aren't the Jugdral games the only ones that don't have at least three recuitable ones?

The 'Jeorge' archetype is actually quite common in the series. I'll admit I'd never heard of it before today, but just from the games I've played, there's Lewyn (I think? Been a while since I've played FE4), Elphin, Lyndis (if we're including Azura), Joshua, L'Arachel, Soren, Micaiah and Robin (not sure if those last three count, to be fair), and I'm sure I'm forgetting someone. And that's just royalty (+Lyndis). That's not including the various characters from noble families that either hide/don't mention their heritage, such as Priscilla, Raven, Astrid, Virion, etc.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Radiant Dragon

[The Geek]

Now that I think about, if we include FE9!Elincia as a pegasus knight, aren't the Jugdral games the only ones that don't have at least three recuitable ones?

The 'Jeorge' archetype is actually quite common in the series. I'll admit I'd never heard of it before today, but just from the games I've played, there's Lewyn (I think? Been a while since I've played FE4), Elphin, Lyndis (if we're including Azura), Joshua, L'Arachel, Soren, Micaiah and Robin (not sure if those last three count, to be fair), and I'm sure I'm forgetting someone. And that's just royalty (+Lyndis). That's not including the various characters from noble families that either hide/don't mention their heritage, such as Priscilla, Raven, Astrid, Virion, etc.

Honestly I'd never heard it called the 'Jeorge' archetype (which makes sense as from what I gather Jorge being nobility is an extra detail added into FE12 and not actually a part of the original games)

I'd always heard it called the Lewyn archetype.

But I agree with above posts that Fates actually doesn't follow archetypes as strongly as previous games. Which IMO is a good thing, as following archetypes would make the games too formulaic.

[Emblem Blade]

As I've played everything from SS and above in FE...I'll just compare/constrast how I see Orochi and Ilyana in their pure magical class, ending comparison/contrasts exclude stats as statues are not taken into account so only growths are applied:

*Ilyana's Growths in Path of Radiance: HP (45%), Str (25%), Mag (45%), Skl (45%), Spd (30%), Lck (45%), Def (15%), Res (50%)
**Every time I played, Ilyana kept getting Skl/Res > HP/Mag/Lck > HP/Spd/Def
**Max Stats for all Sages: HP (60), Str (15), Mag (30), Skl (28), Spd (28), Lck (40), Def (20), Res (28)
**Average Stats as a Sage by 20/20 without boosters: HP (40), Str (10), Mag (30), Skl (28), Spd (20), Lck (28), Def (11), Res (27)
*Ilyana's Growths in Radiant Dawn: HP (55%), Str (45%), Mag (50%), Skl (60%), Spd (30%), Lck (40%), Def (30%), Res (50%)
**Most of the time her growths ended up as...HP/Mag/Skl/Def > Str/Spd/Lck/Res
**Max Stats for Archsage (Thunder-Female): HP (45), Str (24), Mag (39), Skl (34), Spd (30), Lck (30), Def (24), Res (38)
**Average Stats as an Archsage by 20/20 without boosters: HP (45), Str (22), Mag (38), Skl (34), Spd (27), Lck (25), Def (22), Res (35)

*Orochi's Growths as a Diviner in Fates (Statues are not included for stats):
**Modifiers: +3 Mag, +2 Skl, -2 Spd, -1 Lck, -2 Def, +1 Res
**Base Growths w/o Class Growths: HP (35%), Str (5%), Mag (65%), Skl (50%), Spd (15%), Lck (35%), Def (25%), Res (45%)
**Diviner Growths: HP (35%), Str (10%), Mag (80%), Skl (60%), Spd (30%), Lck (20%), Def (25%), Res (55%)
**Onmyoji Growths: HP (35%), Str (5%), Mag (85%), Skl (60%), Spd (30%), Lck (35%), Def (25%), Res (60%)
**Max Stats as Onmyoji w/Modifiers: HP (45), Str (25), Mag (36), Skl (33), Spd (30), Lck (26), Def (23), Res (32)
**Average stats without boosters at 20/20 Onmyoji: HP (35), Str (10), Mag (36), Skl (32), Spd (20), Lck (25), Def (18), Res (32)

Orochi/Ilyana (both games) Growth Lead:

*Ilyana:

**+10%~15% HP Lead
**+15%~40% Str Lead (due to Orochi's Str Growth changing by class)
**RD Ilyana has a +10% Skl Lead over non-class growth boosted base Orochi.
**+15% Speed Lead over non-class growth boosted base Orochi
**+5%~15% Luck Lead (again due to Orochi's Lck Growth changing by class)
**RD Ilyana has a +5% Defense Lead
**PoR and RD Ilyana have a +5% Res Lead over non-class growth boosted base Orochi.

*Orochi:

**+20%~35% Magic Lead (Orochi's Mag Growth changes by class)
**+5%~15% Skl Lead over PoR Ilyana.

**+10% Def Lead over PoR Ilyana.
**Diviner and Onmyoji boosted Orochi has a +5%~10% Res Lead over PoR/RD Ilyana.

Looking at this by overall potential:

*Shared:

**Their Defense Growths overall are very balanced in comparison but Orochi's poor HP Growths make her more suspicious to being KO'd a bit faster against physical enemies.
**Both of them also sport quite a lot of Skill Growths and the overall difference is a mere +5% Lead that Orochi has. Despite that both are evenly hitting their targets in-battle.
**While both are equally fast/slow with ~30% Speed Growths, Ilyana sports a balanced 30% Speed Growth regardless, detailed further in her advantages.

*Ilyana:

**Far more durable as she has more HP compared to Orochi overall. A +10%~15% HP Lead is actually rather important in a game where HP stats are once again diverse depending on the class being used and Ilyana wins for this.
**Now while a +10%~40% Strength Lead isn't much to say at first, if Fates had returned the Weight System of weapons...Ilyana wouldn't really struggle as much as she would be able to overcome that issue, especially RD Ilyana. Orochi would have an issue as stronger tomes/scrolls tend to get near 15-20 Weight and her Strength Growths are horrible (Orochi would suffer from quite an AS Loss to use the stronger tomes/scrolls). If Staves/Rods could do damage again just like in RD, Ilyana could possibly Crit-KO Orochi with a staff.
**Despite having even Speed Growths with Orochi, having a better HP Growth as well is wonderful. Also, should Tome/Scroll Weight be added, Ilyana (RD) would have a better advantage in battle as the AS Loss is reduced to 0 due to her monstrous 45% Strength Growth.
**Far more 'dodgy' than Orochi. As Speed and Luck factor in for Avoid and in Fates, Luck * 0.5 becomes your Dodge, Ilyana is not just avoiding those pesky critical-hits a bit more than Orochi but she's having a much better time dodging enemy attacks. That +5%~15% Luck Lead is actually doing Ilyana a lot more good.

*Orochi:

**Orochi's primary if not her only advantage over Ilyana (both PoR and RD) is her +20%~35% Magic Lead and +5%~10% Resistance Lead. This serves to make Orochi more of a magical tank that can dent enemies much faster even if her HP Growths and final stats get screwed.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Orochi does remind me of Illyana and Radiant Dawn mages in general, stat-wise, in that both have poor speed and physical durability (though, most mages have the latter). Yeah, Orochi has more Magic and Illyana is a bit more durable, but in practice they're quite similarly mediocre.

[Emblem Blade]

Orochi does remind me of Illyana and Radiant Dawn mages in general, stat-wise, in that both have poor speed and physical durability (though, most mages have the latter). Yeah, Orochi has more Magic and Illyana is a bit more durable, but in practice they're quite similarly mediocre.

For some reason I still wonder why RD Ilyana has a whopping 45% Strength Growth for a mage...really, that's absurd since while it does prevent her from suffering from AS Loss, it doesn't really help her that much in RD except for counter-Crit-Killing non-Halberdiers/Generals/Wyvern Lords with Rescue.

[Lady Sansa]

I wonder if Illyana was a typo or a pun.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Typo, I can never remember how her name is spelled. Though now I wish I could claim it was a pun...

RD mage strength is generally just nonsensical, they'll never be weighed down by anything anyway (especially since they get huge promotion bonuses to strength). Ilyana's overkill strength growth means nothing except that I guess she caps a bit faster and thus becomes slightly better at using Bonus Exp then.

[Augestein]

Typo, I can never remember how her name is spelled. Though now I wish I could claim it was a pun...

RD mage strength is generally just nonsensical, they'll never be weighed down by anything anyway (especially since they get huge promotion bonuses to strength). Ilyana's overkill strength growth means nothing except that I guess she caps a bit faster and thus becomes slightly better at using Bonus Exp then.

She can counter with staves competently for what it's worth as well.

[Abvora]

Hoo boy. . .

Jeorge is from a noble family, IIRC, but that's about it. FE12 supports should have more details.

Azura's some weird mix of Ninian and Caeda. She's a blue-haired dancer chick that's fast, frail, wields a lance, and

is a princess of a country no one cares about

. . .and she's also pushed as the main lord's love interest.

She strikes me more as being in the same archetype as Ninian and Deirdre, tbh.

- Pale-haired "mysterious waif" who is pushed as the main lord's love interest

- Has powers/heritage that is important to the main plot

- Has an unknownst-to-them blood relation to a major character

Edited April 23, 2016 by Abvora

[Emblem Blade]

She can counter with staves competently for what it's worth as well.

I wish that that 45% Strength Growth was more of 30% and her Speed was 45%, that would help Ilyana a bit more as 45% is a bit more acceptable to me as a max Speed cap of 30 (for her and Pelleas) isn't doing her much good.

[Radiant Dragon]

She can counter with staves competently for what it's worth as well.

Not particularly, unfortunately. Yeah, she'll have more strength than Micaiah or Soren, but all staves have a might of only 1, and enemies will almost always have more defense than she does strength (especially considering her strength caps at 15 until she reaches third-tier).

[Emblem Blade]

Not particularly, unfortunately. Yeah, she'll have more strength than Micaiah or Soren, but all staves have a might of only 1, and enemies will almost always have more defense than she does strength (especially considering her strength caps at 15 until she reaches third-tier).

Micaiah has a horrible Strength Growth and unless you get lucky on getting at least 10 Strength before her final promotion, Rexaura is going to make her really slow. This also makes her very liable to enemy Swordmasters and Halberdiers in the endgame who can potentially 3-4 HKO her and enemy Warriors who can 2-3 HKO her at full HP. Also, her below-average HP/Def and average Spd makes surviving against anything that's a General/Warrior/Sniper a nightmare. I'm not going to mention anything about Laguz as they can either OHKO her or possibly 2-HKO her.

Soren is better this time, better Strength Growths prevent a large AS Loss. His HP/Lck is average though but he's your most powerful non-Lord magical tank in the game who can also tank 2 Warrior hits in the face and live to say it at 20/20 even with average Defense Growths.

Ilyana is an unusual mage whose class is specialized in magic yet her Magic Growth isn't her highest.

*HP (55%), Str (45%), Mag (50%), Skl (60%), Spd (30%), Lck (40%), Def (30%), Res (50%).

**I have fun and stick Resolve/Wrath on her and after you get to choose who's on whose team, and give her a Rescue Staff and let enemies chip her HP away before I get 70% Crits while enemies start missing her 80% of the time (the 20% of the time are enemy Swordmasters still hitting her).

[Dark Holy Elf]

Elincia's the one most likely to do damage with staff counterattacks, due to actually being a true hybrid unit instead of a mage. Mist might be able to manage some kinda okay ones after promotion too. Of course they still do very poor damage compared to any other weapon.

[saisymbolic]

Micaiah has a horrible Strength Growth and unless you get lucky on getting at least 10 Strength before her final promotion, Rexaura is going to make her really slow. This also makes her very liable to enemy Swordmasters and Halberdiers in the endgame who can potentially 3-4 HKO her and enemy Warriors who can 2-3 HKO her at full HP. Also, her below-average HP/Def and average Spd makes surviving against anything that's a General/Warrior/Sniper a nightmare. I'm not going to mention anything about Laguz as they can either OHKO her or possibly 2-HKO her.

AVERAGE!? Her speed growth is average!?

I remember playing through RD and having consistent runs where Micaiah would earn between 1-3 points of speed throughout the entire game. My Micaiah would literally be a glass cannon--one powerful strike but would shatter the moment any enemy (outside of other mages) breathed on her.

That's why I never liked her.

[maybe]

AVERAGE!? Her speed growth is average!?

I remember playing through RD and having consistent runs where Micaiah would earn between 1-3 points of speed throughout the entire game. My Micaiah would literally be a glass cannon--one powerful strike but would shatter the moment any enemy (outside of other mages) breathed on her.

That's why I never liked her.

35%

i'd say that's probably below average for the most important stat

[Emblem Blade]

AVERAGE!? Her speed growth is average!?

I remember playing through RD and having consistent runs where Micaiah would earn between 1-3 points of speed throughout the entire game. My Micaiah would literally be a glass cannon--one powerful strike but would shatter the moment any enemy (outside of other mages) breathed on her.

That's why I never liked her.

Every time I play RD, Micaiah (without using boosters which are meant for Kurth [who joins veeeery late]) has at least 15 speed before becoming a Light Sage and 22 (out of 23) Speed as a Light Sage which amounts to ~29 Speed as a Light Priestess. What I get horrible on regarding her is her getting little HP Growths (40 HP at 20/20 without boosters) and 19 Defense on just about every RD Hard Run I do.

35%

i'd say that's probably below average for the most important stat

35%, that's 5% higher than Ilyana who is slow to say at the most although in matters for the Archsage (Ilyana), she gets Speed Growths about 40% of the time when leveling up for me.

Out of all my characters who survived fighting BK in a test run to see who could dodge better (Easy) in Chapter 3-7, Ilyana (Lvl 15 max stats Archsage) dodged a 98%, Mist (Lvl 1 Valkyrie maxed stats as a Cleric prior) dodged a 70%, Mia (Lvl 10 Trueblade with all but her Mag/Res capped [HP/Str/Skl/Spd/Lck/Def were capped]) dodges a 40% (of course), and Ike (Lvl 20 Hero with all but Mag/Res capped) dodged a 87%.

Ilyana had me worried as she just tanked a double-hit from a Lvl 14 Trueblade Eddy (who left her with 5 HP) but she dodged the BK and scored a crit for 27 damage on the brute.