screenshot Ike's FE Megathread {15.5}

[Baldrick]

That said, the complete change of Lewyn's tone from post-Yied to post-Melgen is staggering. He goes from: "Well, these people aren't all that evil; don't be too quick to call people evil," to: "Yeah, they weren't evil per se, but they were supporting a tyrant, so they were definitely the enemy and had to die."

No, it makes sense. Note that Levin warns against placing labels on good as well as evil; Ishtor and Liza may not be mustache-twirling villains who remind us how evil they are in every scene, but they're still supporting the child hunts as well as the Balding Lousy Uncle with Miniscule Eyes.

[Integrity]

I actually like this part in the narrative. It shows the reason why the Loptyr cult exists and why it has followers: it's a terrorist organisation based on religious extremism. It's basically the Islamic State of Jugdral.

while you have a point, it doesn't show anything at all. the only part of the loptyr cult ever shown in game, besides a little scrawl on the wall of a place where everybody is trying to kill everybody else, is the terrorists. this doesn't show us anything we didn't already know - that the loptyr cult is a group of religious fanatics. we've been told this since chapter zero.

in your analogy, this is telling us that not all muslims are terrorists, while on the other hand every single muslim portrayed in-game is a terrorist. even so, it's not even really comparable; the loptyr cult picked up steam in the relatively best-off part of the world (grannvale) so it's not like it was preying on the oppressed of grannvale, taking root in the poor parts. none of this is mentioned in game at all.

you'd have a point, in a game with any subtlety this could be a subtle moment, but it's a ham-fisted moment that tries to add pathos to an organization that is entirely portrayed without nuance. it's not an allusion for modern terrorism, because there's nothing else in the game to support that analysis, and the comparisons you can draw to it are chiefly superficial.

i appreciate that you're giving another interpretation, though! i just don't think it's supported by the material

[Baldrick]

in your analogy, this is telling us that not all muslims are terrorists, while on the other hand every single muslim portrayed in-game is a terrorist.

What about the villagers of the Spirit Forest? Admittedly, apart from Diadora only one is portrayed, a generic villager who dumps exposition and leaves.

Looking back, you may well have skipped that village.

[Integrity]

What about the villagers of the Spirit Forest? Admittedly, apart from Diadora only one is portrayed, a generic villager who dumps exposition and leaves.

Looking back, you may well have skipped that village.

they're never stated to be loptyr cultists as far as i'm aware? deirdre certainly isn't a loptyr cultist

[Baldrick]

The reason they live in the Spirit Forest to avoid persecution. They're not Lopt cultists in the sense that they don't want to revive Lopt.

They're the equivalent of Muslims that aren't part of IS.

[Integrity]

not all of them; "the descendants of maira took shelter there to avoid persecution" etc (chapter 1 village guy) but that is literally one guy, nothing is said about the rest of the spirit village men

EDIT: remember, "the descendant of maira" would have been one person, according to the maira pact, and deirdre would be their only spawn.

EDIT2: in fact, the dialogue implies the village was already there when maira's descendants hid there

Edited July 4, 2016 by Integrity

[General Horace]

i don't really get your gripe about bosses in gen2 (aside from maybe Chapter 7 Blume, if you don't earlypromote Celice he oneshots pretty much everyone). Ishtor has less than a 10% shot at activating continue (although I don't think it should work on siege tomes).

Areone is one of the cooler bosses in the FE series imo (if only you actually had to defeat him instead of running past him), and while Alvis can be kind of a slog because of great shield, I think it's good with the narrative of the story (it'd be pretty anticlimactic if Celice could just goon him with the hero sword like the last 50 bosses). Julius/Ishtar in Chapter 10 is also really cool. Your units become so strong so quickly great shield doesn't even really matter in any fight aside from Alvis and the first Blume maybe (unless you fed Celice in which case he sucks).

Celice also gives +20 hit to everyone, and most of the time you'll have two mounts that give another +10 each (you missed out on Laylea and the Hezul kids which kinda blows) and most of the strong bosskilling weapons (Killer Bow, Hero Sword, Mistoltin) are very accurate anyway.

Edited July 4, 2016 by General Horace

[Baldrick]

Yeah, it doesn't make sense that he says "all of Maira's descendants" if there is only one descendant.

The Maira Decree wouldn't have been made until after the Miracle of Darna, and Maira rebelled >100 years before that, so maybe there were more than one descendant who fled to the Spirit Forest. And then after the Maira Decree, they stopped reproducing.

EDIT: The Lopt Sect/IS comparison doesn't work because the former comprises their whole religion. Anyone in the sect who doesn't support Lopt's revival was probably killed off (ignoring Thracia's retcons).

Edited July 4, 2016 by Tricky Drick

[Tamanoir]

Yeah, it doesn't make sense that he says "all of Maira's descendants" if there is only one descendant.

The Maira Decree wouldn't have been made until after the Miracle of Darna, and Maira rebelled >100 years before that, so maybe there were more than one descendant who fled to the Spirit Forest. And then after the Maira Decree, they stopped reproducing.

EDIT: The Lopt Sect/IS comparison doesn't work because the former comprises their whole religion. Anyone in the sect who doesn't support Lopt's revival was probably killed off (ignoring Thracia's retcons).

Lopt cult is more similar to satanists, honnnestly. Loptyr is, like, the incarnation of Evil.

Even if they're not obligatory bad people (just horribly misguided), they're still fundamentally on the wrong camp.

IS are using God for their plans, but God ​himself isn't evil, as far as we know.

[Integrity]

i don't really get your gripe about bosses in gen2

tbh it might just be differences in philosophy as to what a strategy game boss should be, but my problem with them is that a lot of the bosses literally aren't able to be engaged by a very large portion of your army. chapter 7 blume is obviously bad, and i think continue on siege tomes is more BM than anything, but looking further down you get shit like arion (who is a cool fight, but i wouldn't call it a good one), hilda both times, arvis, ishtar, hell, even julius. now that i'm thinking about it, all the major named bosses in the game.

your units become strong fast, but even capped out versions of your non-holy-weapon users can't do meaningful damage to a lot of the named bosses without a good bit of powergaming behind it - possible? sure, but i don't know if i've ever throw a shot at any of the above with anyone besides seliph, shanan, ares, faval, or forseti.

what this means for me is that my boss-killing units are defined for me by the game as these elite few with the holy weapons (fuck you, subs), and boss fights rather than bringing the force of your army to bear on a poor chap become everybody hanging out in a corner besides a dancer, a healer, and a few big lads from a list of the same units it was last time i played taking shots at them in turn.

it's an artifact of the bosses being balanced for fighting by your holy weapon users, but the holy weapon bonuses are so ridiculous that that takes them out of the league of the rest of your army. blume isn't the worst - honestly, it doesn't get that bad until chapter 9, since you can absolutely power somebody up hard to eat ishtor or blume. but will slatesaber (who was way fed and still struggled against ishtor) ever be able to fight arion with all the cheese i can muster? arvis? those guys are for your holy weapons and only them.

so i guess it's less that i have an issue with the boss design of the second generation and more that it just comes right back to the holy weapons and the fact that they needed to be balanced around and that i don't like that.

[Gradivus.]

(although I don't think it should work on siege tomes)

It can, it's pretty evil when it procs, but it's only like 5% and you get infinite map saves so yeah

Edited July 4, 2016 by Gradivus.

[TheMoniker]

I actually find the boss design discussion interesting, since it essentially results from a massive divide in power between your units. You have the "normals" (non-holy weapon users) and the "elite troops" (Holy Weapon users, with all the statboosts that come with it), forcing the designers into a problem situation: Either they design bosses that the normal units can beat, but lose instantly to the Holy Weapon users, or they design bosses that pose a threat to the Holy Weapon users preventing an easy win, at the cost of relegating the majority of your army to "moral support" status. I've never played FE4, but from what I can tell from your screenshots, it looks like they somehow managed to get the worst of both worlds, with bosses that can't be beat (or require ridiculous cheese to beat) by normals, but get steamrolled by the Holy Weapon users anyways.

[solrocknroll]

I was playing Chapter 4 a few minutes ago, and yes, Siege Tomes can proc Continue. It happened legitimately twice on a row, with Tiltyu surviving one turn and then Beowulf getting slammed on the next turn.

[Integrity]

This post took me three sessions to write. I don’t like making original content, I prefer commenting on stuff, but there isn’t much to comment on in this chapter so I created content to satisfy instead. Effort is bad.

This chapter is the first half of the Thracian arc of the second generation, and they have the only real actual ambiguity in the game’s story besides one plot point in chapter 10. Genealogy tries desperately to torpedo itself, natch, but that’s largely Lewyn’s fault. Like always. Dopey fuck.

Our map text today lines out something that’s been hinted at, but I don’t think has been explicitly stated in the game yet, so I reckon it’s worth discussion briefly.

[spoiler=map text]The Thracia Peninsula has two very distinct faces. The northern half is an enormous fertile savannah home to several small kingdoms.

The south however is a barren wasteland lined with towering mountains, and home to the Thracia Kingdom and their infamous Dragon Knights.

With reckless valour Thracia made repeated attempts to conquer the northern fertile land.

However, each attempt met with opposition by Lenster’s Royal House and ended in defeat.

After the massacre of Lenster’s army in the Yied Desert, Thracia’s perseverance finally seemed to have paid off.

However, a military force headed by Blume of Freege quickly moved in and subdued the area.

Thereafter the empire appointed the region as the Northern Kingdom of Thracia under King Blume.

During the ten-odd years that followed, not even the brazen King Trabant dared challenge the empire’s military power.

And thus a precarious balance persisted.

But the fall of the capitol in Alster to the liberation army presented a new twist to the delicate balance of power in the region.

Celice’s liberation army now controlled both Alster and Lenster Castle.

After safely escaping to Conote Castle, King Blume began to amass a military force.

Meanwhile Princess Ishtar, better known as the goddess of thunder, fortified Manster Castle’s defense in case of a Thracian attack.

And just over the border at Mease, King Trabant and his commanding officer General Maikov maintained an ominous silence.

The people had only one wish, and that was for Lenster’s Royal House to return to power.

And thus another battle commenced.

Basically: there’s two Thracias. South Thracia fucking blows, everyone is starving all the time. North Thracia is a paradise full of food, and everybody is always happy and it rules. South Thracian dudes keep trying to invade North Thracia, because their country is a hellscape, and Leinster keeps smacking them back into their place. Travant actually has pretty good, believable motivations in this game – hell, both the Good Villains do.

Anyway, Travant crushed Quan and his dudes and then went to gear up to kill Finn and all of Leinster but Arvis beat him to the punch and occupied all this sick rich North Thracian food land. Now we’re going to kill Blume for him. We rule.

Don’t be fooled, they’re fucking with us this time. Ishtar doesn’t die, Seliph is like a mile south of that, and we never fight Travant.

Let’s get down to it, then. This chapter follows on the heels of chapter 7 – the second generation has a slightly better grasp of time than the first – after Seliph and his lads have rested up from taking Leinster back and Leif has had time to finish beating Thracia 776. Blume is kind of freaking out now because we nearly killed him, also we murdered his son and his girlfriend and stole Tinny from him. Blume’s a bad dude, but he’s a decent villain; he’s satisfying to beat and he acts believably.

Travant’s been grinding his teeth for years waiting for this and now we’re giving it to him. All he has to do is ignore a few communiques and Blume will be gone. Good on him. Blume sends all his dudes out at us.

Meanwhile, new character time! Cedric is a pretty cool guy, but he fully follows the Genealogy Trend – he has three conversations this chapter (one only if Lewyn is his dad) and then he doesn’t talk again for the rest of the game unless he married Tinny. Poor dude. He’ll come back in Thracia 776, though. Or, more accurately, we’ll see him about a year before this.

Travant’s pretty great. Arion also makes his appearance here. He’s this game’s obligatory cold but sympathetic enemy general who you regrettably cannot recruit. Fire Emblem is really fond of that particular trope. For the next chapter or so he’s largely an echo chamber for Travant.

[spoiler=echo echo] Areone: “Father, King Blume has sent another request for backup. He claims the empire has lost both Lenster and Alster to the rebels.”

Trabant: “That’s Sigurd’s boy, right? Blume must be getting pretty old to let some kid walk all over him. Areone, don’t worry about Blume. Let the empire and the rebel army fight it out. I’ll strike when they’re both too tired to fight back.”

Areone: “I knew it. You’ve been holding out all this time, haven’t you father…”

Trabant: “You’re damn straight! The peninsula was finally within my grasp after disposing of Lenster’s knights in Yied. Then that Blume slipped in and stole it right from under me… He’s gonna pay with blood!”

Areone: “Father, I know how you must feel. If only we could take on Grandbell outright…”

Trabant: “Everything rests on the unification of the peninsula. The fertile lands to the north hold the key to eliminating poverty within our kingdom. Areone, our ways have often been likened to that of hyenas… Yet our mercenary work for foreign lands has meant the kingdom’s survival. However… I’ve had enough. It’s time we move up in this world. Areone, the rivalry before us will determine the fate of Thracia.”

Areone: “Understood, father.”

Arion’s also kind of a dipshit, but we won’t see too much of that until next chapter.

Credit to game, after this conversation Leif, Finn, and Jeanne run out and rush up to Leinster, where they start. Leinster’s also been renovated and has all the amenities you’d expect of a field castle.

On to gameplay! I really like how the start and end of this chapter pan out – honestly, overall, I really like this chapter besides some minor quibbles – but there’s a slump after the initial rush that’s hard to get over and throws off tempo for the next part. I fuck around for a few turns off-camera to alleviate that.

Muhammed, who is not Shagall, swear it guys, starts out next to our main base. He’s got a pretty threatening circle of lance armors, bow armors, thunder mages, and a healer, while he himself has a Hero Lance and Hero Bow. It’s threatening, but not insurmountable, except…

These Horse Lads immediately set out for Leinster. The bulk of them are javelineers, they have five Troubadours for healing, and the boss is a modestly beefy thunder mage. Again, not terribly threatening on its own, but they’re bearing down on Leif, Finn, and Jeanne, and unless you piled shit into Finn or Leif (I didn’t), you need to get backup over there ASAP.

Vampa, Fetra, and Eliu make their reappearance and move right behind the Horse Lads, presenting a pretty credible second wave threat if you’re slow to wipe out the initial one. Again, not particularly problematic on their own.

But Blume also send Faval out a few steps behind them, introducing us to Faval.

[spoiler=faval.] Faval: “King Blume, you called?”

Blume: “Ah, Faval, I’ve been waiting for you.”

Faval: “Look, I’m busy, okay? So if you’ve got something for me, spit it out.”

Blume: “Grmph… I had you summoned because I have a favour to ask of you.”

Faval: “What kind of favour?”

Blume: “I need your help in bringing down the rebel army.”

Faval: “Not interested. Find another mercenary to do your dirty work.”

Blume: “I understand you have several orphans under your care. It seems you could use the money. I hear your younger sister has resorted to theft to make ends meet. That doesn’t bother you?”

Faval: “Patty really goes out of her way for those kids… Hmph… we could use the cash.”

Blume: “Then we have an agreement? You finish off Celice and all the money you want is yours.”

Faval: “Agreed. I’ve a feeling I’m going to regret this… but I’ll help you just this once.”

Faval’s a bitch, he’s pretty great. He even has conversations in the rest of the chapters of the game! What a guy! I like him pretty well, and also his substitute has a stupid name and a stupid face and is useless. Screw you, Assholio. Also, please note how quickly Faval decided to work for Blume.

Oddly enough, I have zero screenshots between Faval appearing and Lana punking the northern midboss. Muhammed’s squad is all already dead, this dude’s squad is all already dead. I don’t know, I guess I just didn’t press F12 for like four turns. There was a SLATESABER GANK for Muhammed, though.

Incidentally, the sisters are packed with Leg Rings now instead of Life Rings, giving them a way longer punch than you’re probably expecting. Their AI is programmed to go for their TRIANGLE ATTACK, unfortunately, which leads to them usually mass suiciding on Ares at 1-range, since they go for it even if a sister is dead and it’s impossible. They’re more a hypothetical threat than an actual one thanks to that, but I respect that the game tried and it’s a cool opener to the map.

Blume now unveils his final threat: Ishtar. Ishtar does massive damage, because she steals Mjölnir from Blume. This is also our introduction to her as a character and, uh, don’t be fooled by the trend of Genealogy on every single other character so far. She looks sympathetic but she’s a total fucking psychopath, and it starts right now. I’m putting this one in-line because it’s …it.

Ishtar: “Father, you called for me?”

Blume: “Ishtar? Good, you made it. The rebel army is nearing. Please… you must protect me!”

Ishtar: “Father, this so unlike you! How could a petty band of rebels get you so worked up?”

Blume: “They’ve already killed your brother, Ishtor, and we’ve lost Tinny as well. I can’t rely on Vampa and her sisters either… You’re all I have left!”

“Your brother is dead, your cousin is missing, and I, your dad, am about to die!”

“I see.”

She’s got more relevance, don’t worry. Don’t you worry about a thing.

And as I’m so smug about how great my planning is, I totally mess up Patches’ positioning and have her way too far away from Faval when he’s about to close to range with my dudes. Nice.

This dude hits really hard, but Ichival has total crap for accuracy so it’s pretty safe to bait him.

I recover.

[spoiler=patches recruits faval] Patty: “Faval? What’re you doing here!? Don’t tell me you’re working for Blume!”

Faval: “Patty? Are you fighting with the rebels!?”

Patty: “That’s right! We’re here helping the people and we’re gonna finish off Blume! It was the Imperial Guard that killed the parents of all the orphans. Remember!? And now YOU are fighting with the very same army! What’s wrong with you!”

Faval: “You’re right. Sorry… I don’t know what got into me.”

Patty: “If you’re really sorry about it, then join up with us. We gotta bring peace back to the people!s”

Faval: “Alright, I’m in. Patty, you sure have grown up since I saw you last.”

Patty: “Who, me? Heehee!”

Faval changes his mind quickly in general. One argument from Blume, he’s working for Blume. One argument from Patches, he’s working against Blume. Faval is the tide.

Anyway, I didn’t want to just start cheesing shit this early into the LP but fuck it, Ishtar is no fun to fight at all and Lana is hella buff right now. We annihilate her.

Oh man, it begins! Here’s Imperial Prince Julius. He’s got Manfroy’s plot powers, and he’s literally the dark god reborn (spoilers), and Manfroy still manages to be even more of a boring overpowered void of personality than him. Honestly, though, I don’t have too much for complaint about Julius. He doesn’t abuse his plot powers quite as hard as Manfroy has and is still going to later in the game, which is a huge plus. His writing gets a little ow the edge at points, but it’s not as bad as Ishtar’s Mom, who doesn’t have the excuse of actually being the dark god reborn. We’ll enjoy chapter 10 together!

Blume actually calls Faval out when you get close. Faval is a bitch to him.

Check out Faval’s sick odds against this guy. 23% hit, plus he has Big Shield and regenerates slightly every turn.

Seliph’s handling of this dude and of Ares is indicative of why I like the dude. He’s just so dismissive of shit, plus he gets an occasional great action movie one-liner. He’s the hero we need, deserve, and got.

Johalva has this shit. At this point, Blume is silenced so I’m just throwing attacks at him for giggles while I wait for everyone to catch up. This is the flow-breaking point I mentioned earlier – if you rush through Blume you often leave your poor footies slogging through the bit past Muhammed’s squad and they’re constantly two-three turns behind the action. So I waste two-three turns throwing useless attacks at Blume and fishing for conversations!

Tinny had a good upbringing. This actually does get explored, but only if Lewyn is her dad. This game fucking loves Lewyn. She doesn’t kill Blume, largely because her hit is total crap. I don’t remember who does, I did this like four days ago. I think it was Lana.

Lewyn actually doesn’t talk much here, but he says some silly shit. The soldiers that were all here fled when they heard of Connaught’s fall, Connaught being the castle we just took and in which this conversation is happening. They all just dashed through our huge swole line outside Connaught when they heard Connaught had fallen, which they were in. On the other hand, there’s another line whose sentiment I’ve grumbled about before in this LP:

Celice: “But Thracia has remained neutral all this time. Why would they turn on us?”

Levin: “You don’t know King Trabant. Just ask Prince Leaf. He lost his entire family to Trabant. And the way in which he took their lives was a disgrace to the knighthood… Keep an eye on him, Celice. He’s up to something.”

Part of the problem with Genealogy’s handling of Travant is one of the core problems of the game’s plotting. Travant is a character with actual, relatable motivations, who is actually only antagonistic in that he stands opposite to the protagonists, rather than just because he is evil unlike the rest of the villains besides Arvis, but the narrative is completely focused on portraying him as a horrible evil monster. Travant’s killing of Ethlyn, Quan, and a bunch of knights was pedestrian compared to the rest of the shit going on in the world right now and, hell, was pedestrian compared to the rest of the shit going on in the world back then, and stands arguably below war crimes we ourselves have committed as the protagonists in this game. Everyone who talks about it, however, talks about it like it was a seriously heinous crime that directly contravenes the Geneva Convention.

In a game with good writing and characterization, you could still frame this well: obviously, the reason for this is that it’s personal to the heroes and they can’t separate that from actual evil, but that angle of things is never explored in the slightest. Adding on to that, the rest of the rogues gallery is mustache-twirling comically evil with a single exception, so it starts to look more and more like it’s an accident that Travant is an actual sympathetic villain, who’s still unambiguously a villain. It’s like there’s a switch that’s turned on in the writing that’s very binary: are we talking about an antagonist? Y: evil.

On cue, Travant pops up. He’s pretty stoked about this turn of events; Blume’s dead, the Empire’s knocked out of North Thracia, and we’re presumably too tired to turn around and smash his Thracia while still dealing with the Empire. I mean, obviously, we’re not, and we’re going to clown Travant and the entire Empire over the next three chapters, but you can’t blame the guy for thinking we’re not invincible.

The game can’t not remind us that Travant’s a villain, though. This bit of conversation is pretty interesting, in part because it highlights the ambiguities that surround good, successful translation. Here’s the two lines:

Trabant: “Heh heh… Blume’s dead, is he? The empire has finally been purged from Thracia! It’s time to take action, and Manster is first on the list. Altenna, you’re going to assist Coruta in seizing Manster. Kill anyone who offers resistance. Women… children… I don’t care. Kill ’em all!”

Altenna: “Father! If you want me to fight the empire, fine. But I’m not about to kill innocent people! We should be aligning with the liberation army, not against them!”

First thing you see is Travant offering some, uh, uncharacteristic bloodthirst. We’ve been led to see Travant as pragmatic, a guy who plays by his own rules because his country is ass and he wants it fixed, a far cry from “kill ‘em all.” What’s going on here is translational liberties, which are good and cool – as long as they’re consistently applied. Travant’s line in the original Japanese instructs that "if there are people who resist, even if they're citizens, mercy is unnecessary. Annihilate them!" Not only is this line, like, way cooler and more metal literally translated than how it was, it’s got way different connotations to it. Travant’s speech translated the latter way emphasizes that resistance will not be tolerated; Travant’s speech translated the former way emphasizes that the slaughter needn’t indiscriminate. The same message is inherent to both, but one paints him as a ruthless conqueror, and the other paints him as a sociopath.

How about Altenna? In the Japanese she straight up calls Travant “ridiculous,” which rules.

[spoiler=the rest of the conversation] Trabant: “Altenna! I don’t have time for a lecture. You do as I’ve told you and you do it now!”

Altenna: “But…”

Areone: “Altenna, just do as father says. We must leave for Thracia to prepare for the next battle. The front line is in your hands.”

Altenna: “But Areone… Alright, I’ll do it.”

Trabant: “Well, don’t just stand there! Get going!!”

(Altenna leaves)

Trabant: “…Did Altenna finally leave? Boy, that girl doesn’t give in easy. Her mother was real brazen, as well. Hmph… Like mother, like daughter.”

Areone: “Father, Altenna means no disrespect. Please give her the benefit of the doubt.”

Trabant: “Why do I need you to tell me that!? In any case, let’s head back to the capital. I’m going to round up the army and take this peninsula once and for all! Maikov, you’re in charge of Mease until we all get back. You’re to defend to the death!”

Maikov has no relevance to anything whatsoever.

Meanwhile, up north, Ced’s ready to die for this shithole in the middle of nowhere, but at least he gives us civilians to save. I really like the civilians mechanic – since I didn’t explain it the first time it appeared, for those of you not playing, every few chapters (4, 8, 10 I think) the game shits a pile (two in 10’s case) of six-ish civilians at you. Having a unit walk up to and Rescue a civilian nets them a cool 100 experience, no strings attached, no matter the level. I used it to pump the shit out of Noish, who is largely useless, to get some extra stats on Fee. Here, I give them all to Jeanne. Hell, this isn’t a meritocracy.

Maikov shits a load of dragon knights at us. And by that, I mean he shits a load of free experience at us. Thracians largely kind of suck.

HE’S BACK

This guy has his only conversation right here, much like his alternate selves who all have one conversation each and then die.

[spoiler=it] Coluda: “Sir, is everything alright? Manster Castle is just ahead. We shall proceed as planned.”

Altenna: “Coluda, wait. These are mere citizens we’re up against… We shouldn’t be fighting them. Wait for me here. I’ll try to get them to lay down their arms.”

Coluda: “I don’t think so, sir. I’ve received strict orders from the king. Regardless of what you may have to say, I am not allowed to let up on the attack.”

Altenna: “I am in command here! Do you wish to disobey me!?”

Coluda: “This is my squadron! If you wish to not get involved, then step aside. Troops, prepare to attack! Remember, no survivors!”

Altenna: “No! W, wait! Coluda!!”

I don’t like Altenna very much. She’s a strong face over a nonexistent core, and that’s kind of the extent of her. She never accomplishes anything in the course of the entire game, despite being a secondary plot character; things just kind of happen around her. Also, Coluda calls her ‘sir’ and that’s just a little irrational thing that bugs me when characters do it. Captain Janeway had a little rant about it the first time it happened in Voyager. Decent show, that. Gets a lot more flak than it deserves.

Anyway, now that Faval’s here I can enact a plan that’s been sitting idle for three chapters now. Remember this guy? Sold him to Briggid after killing Blume. Faval’s got Ichival, what’s he gonna need this for (well, okay, besides hitting things)?

And that’s the story of how Lester died in the second fight of the arena when the map started, and how Leicester clowned the entire arena in Manster, being hit once. Leicester has risen, ladies and gentlemen. Lester is dead.

The rest of the map is mostly just me walking sixish hard lads south and smashing into Maikov, so let’s talk about some content I’ve breezed over for a while: the substitutes. I’ve mentioned before that they’re almost entirely the kids, but with the serial numbers filed off, let’s talk specifics.

One interesting thing about the kids is that there are some unique events to the subs, and there are some unique events to the kids; they’re not all shared. For instance, if you walk Dimna into Isaach during chapter 6, he runs into an old sweetheart and she gives him a few points of strength. Leicester isn’t from Isaach, he doesn’t even have a conversation here. If Johan/lva waits for 10 turns next to Radney, but not Larcei, there’s a very short conversation and Radney gets some stats up. Sometimes there’s interactions: if you have both Tristan and Roddlevan, they have a conversation with some mutual stats ups in chapter 7, but if you have either of Diarmaid or Slatesaber you get nothing. On the flip side, Finn will talk to Nanna, Lana, or Larcei if he’s their dad, and Lewyn will do the same for Fee, Leen, or Tinny. Nanna has a lover’s conversation (spoilers: it’s fucking hosed) if she married Ares; Jeanne doesn’t.

(Ced drops us this one:

Sety: “Sir Celice… I can’t tell you how long I’ve waited for your arrival. Sir, please… save the world from despair. Too many people have given up hope as it is. Manster had a great number of children seized and sent to the shrine in Miletos. I was unable to prevent it… I’m no hero, sir. I’m a coward if anything.”

We’re actually going to go find those kids! Also he talks a lot in his story conversations, like Lewyn. Jerk.)

With a few exceptions, the subs-only conversations are pretty good. Mana stands out as having a pretty different personality to Lana, and she gets just enough unique conversations with Seliph to explore it as such. The problem mostly arises in the shared conversations. Take this one, Fee/Femina to Seliph, from chapter 6:

[spoiler=fee] Fee: “Are you Prince Celice?”

Celice: “Yes, I am. And who might you be?”

Fee: “I am Fee. I came here from Silesia.”

Celice: “Silesia? Are you a Pegasus Knight?”

Fee: “No… not yet anyway. But my mother was. She fought alongside Sir Sigurd in the last war.”

Celice: “Really? Well, on his behalf, thanks. So what made you come here?”

Fee: “Well, I initially set out to find my brother. But when I heard word of you taking on the empire, I made a little change in plans. Please, let me join your liberation army.”

Celice: “Hey, that’s fine with me, but what about your brother?”

Fee: “I have a hunch that we’ll run across him eventually.”

[spoiler=femina] Femina: “You’re Sir Celice?”

Celice: “Yes. And who are you?”

Femina: “I am Femina. I just got here from Silesia.”

Celice: “Silesia? Are you a Pegasus Knight?”

Femina: “Yes. Er… Actually, I’m still in training.”

Celice: “I see. So what are you doing in Isaac?”

Femina: “Well, I initially set out to find my brother. But when I heard word of you taking on the empire, I made a little change in plans. Please, I’d like to join your liberation army.”

Celice: “Yeah, that’s fine with me. But what about your brother?”

Femina: “If I join your army… well, I have a gut feeling that I’ll run across him eventually.”

We’re not done picking on Fee/mina by a longshot here, but recall Aideen’s diverse and varied conversations with multiple men from chapter 5. Or, really, recall the Dad Conversations from Awankening: all the same content, with a few speech mannerisms swapped. Arthur/Amid’s with Seliph from the same chapter is actually the same conversation with the names swapped. Fee/mina only have the words swapped because it contains a direct reference to Fee’s mom working with Sigurd.

That doesn’t actually stop Genealogy sometimes, though. You know how Fee’s motivation for becoming a Pegasus Knight and joining the army was because of her admiration for her mom? Femina’s motivation for becoming a Pegasus Knight and joining the army was because of her admiration for Fury. Explicitly Fury.

Femina: “Yeah. My dream has always been to become a Pegasus Knight just like Fury was. You just watch… I’m gonna make it!”

In the same conversation, Ced tells Fee she “takes after [her] mother;” Hawk tells Femina that she’s “admired [seliph’s] father ever since [she was] little.” Femina, being Fee’s B-side, apparently has a big (admiring) relationship with the old resistance, despite having had no contact with them at all and, in fact, probably having been born after the Empire rose (her mom told her all about Sigurd). You’d think that could probably give us some hilarious otaku shenanigans, but it just reads like “Fee wants to be a Pegasus Knight because of Fury; Femina does too.” Femina’s horsebird is even named Mahnya, just like Fee’s; in fact, remember how Fee and Arthur had a conversation in chapter 6 about their parents and their specific weird circumstances? Same deal for any combination of Fee/mina and Arthur/Amid. Remember last chapter how we killed Jeanne’s dad in chapter 3, and she was taken in by Finn? Nanna.

Yeah, we’re the real villains here.

It gets really funny in the case of Faval/Assholio- oh my God MS Word recognizes Assholio as a word. Please let that sink in.

Anyway, Faval and Assholio. Head up and read Faval’s conversation with Blume, then his conversation with Patches, then this one below real quick. Pay attention to Faval’s tone in particular.

[spoiler=this one below]Faval: “Prince Celice, please forgive me.”

Celice: “Hey, aren’t you Faval? Don’t worry about it. Patty told me about all the orphans you two are taking care of.”

Faval: “Yeah, I just can’t believe I was stupid enough to work for the empire. I’m so ashamed… Prince Celice, I vow to make it up to you.”

Celice: “Well, thanks, Faval. It’s good to have you aboard.”

Got it? Assholio is nameswapped for Faval in all of those conversations. What’s a conversation for only Assholio look like?

[spoiler=this]Person #1: “Uwaa!! The hitman from Conote has returned! Everybody, run for your life!”

Asaello: “…”

Person #2: “…”

Asaello: “…Aren’t you going to run, too?”

Person #2: “…You look sad.”

Asaello: “Hmm? Yeah, maybe I am a little.”

Person #2: “Here, take these! They’re berries we gathered in the woods. Cheer up! They’ll make you big and strong!”

Asaello: “…Thanks.”

Reconcile Assholio’s ellipses with Faval’s lines. They’re two entirely different characters. It gets funnier next chapter when Faval has a conversation with Patches and the tone is fully in keeping with the split ones. Asaello has one too, but it’s mostly a wordswap of Faval’s, so sounds exactly like him. The only other Asaello conversation in the game is with Mana in the final chapter, and it’s more like the village conversation in tone.

Left: Slate, who I’ve put two chapters of real effort into. Right: Ares, who I picked up in this state. Holy weapon users are really the worst part of this game.

Besides what we just went over, there’s two bits of fixed character development hiding in the optional conversations this chapter. Tinny’s ready to be talked to by Seliph at any time:

[spoiler=tinny] Celice: “Tinny, do you know Princess Ishtar?”

Tinny: “Yes. Ishtar was just like a sister to me.”

Celice: “What about that boy who came for her, who was that?”

Tinny: “Hmm… That was probably Prince Yurius.”

Celice: “…Prince Yurius!?”

Tinny: “Yes, the two are in love. That’s why he saved her, I think.”

Celice: “So you know Prince Yurius?”

Tinny: “Well, I’ve met him a few times at Barhara. He’s… Hm, how can I put it… He has this charm that attracts people to him. Yet he can be as cold as ice… It’s terrifying… almost like he’s not even human.”

It’s our real introduction to Julius as a boring overpowered character. He’s a god, man, people just want to do what he wants them to do, even though he’s comically evil. The “he just has this charm” literary device is one I personally dislike, since in situations like this it’s a stand-in for “we wrote him like an unlikeable douchebag but people just like him okay” – the epitome of telling, not showing. Even so, Tinny/Linda’s unique upbringing is used; she’s the only one who’s been inside the empire at any point. An amusing footnote to this conversation is the next time Julius appears Seliph is incredulous that this same thing happens to the letter.

Our other one is Ares. Ares doesn’t have an equivalent conversation with Jeanne. Actually, if Nanna isn’t born, Ares doesn’t have a single line from the conversation where Seliph dismisses him to the end of the game. Not a one. Genealogy! What’s locked behind this conversation?

[spoiler=ares and nanna] Nanna: “Are you Aless?”

Aless: “Yeah, what do you need?”

Nanna: “I heard you’re King Eltshan’s son. Is that true?”

Aless: “Yeah, so what about it?”

Nanna: “It is you, after all! I am Nanna… I’m the daughter of King Eltshan’s sister!”

Aless: “What? You’re Lachesis’ daughter!?”

Nanna: “Yes! She was so worried about you for the longest time… That must have been why she came to Lenster. She was looking for you!”

Aless: “My father knew Agustria was about to be engulfed in war. So he sent me and my frail mother to her parent’s residence in Lenster. But I lost my dear mother to the flames of war during the empire’s invasion of Lenster.”

Nanna: “And that’s when you went with Jabarro?”

Aless: “Yeah, he took me in after that, and I traveled the world with his mercenary troops.”

Nanna: “No wonder we never met… Aless, I have something for you.”

Aless: “What… Is that from my father!?”

Nanna: “Yes. My mother passed it on to me. It’s addressed to you, Aless.”

Aless: “…!!”

Nanna: “See… Sir Sigurd never once betrayed King Eltshan’s trust. I’m sure they were good friends till the very end.”

Aless: “Whoa… I’ve had it wrong all this time.”

Nanna: “Aless, keep Sir Celice safe, okay? He needs you on his side more than anything!”

Aless: “Yeah… I’ll do that, Nanna. Hey, I’ll teach you some sword fighting tactics before you go. Now watch carefully…”

Not much, just his entire backstory and reconciliation to his conversation with Seliph last chapter. I’d like to reiterate that this is the only way to get any closure on that conversation where he’s straight-up threatening Seliph, that that conversation is not contingent on having Nanna, and that he won’t ever address it with the man himself. Also,

Aless: “Whoa… I’ve had it wrong all this time.”

You’re right, it’s not, even Leicester could smash a whole brigade of them. Lewyn does his, uh, Lewyn thing here, a perfect end to the chapter.

Levin: “Well, for starters Thracia is not as well off as most countries. Its steep mountain ranges make agriculture just about impossible. Simply having enough food to eat is a job in and of itself. So the men do mercenary work, and the women take whatever work they can get. King Trabant’s methods may be diabolical, but his actions aren’t all personally motivated. The soldiers of Thracia have sworn their loyalty to Trabant because they believe he is their one true emancipator.”

Celice: “Is that so… Well, that explains it then.”

Levin: “Of course this by no means justifies invading other countries. Trabant’s idea of justice quickly loses its meaning outside of Thracia. For the people living peacefully in the north, he’s nothing more than a despised aggressor. I know this is tough to make sense of, but don’t let it sidetrack you from our mission… And that is to remove Thracia’s royal family from power, and create an environment where the people can live peacefully amongst themselves.”

Just look at those walls of text. It’s even more jarring in-game compared to right here.

This conversation brings up a real issue with Lewyn, besides how he’s a garbage badman: he’s the one insisting we invade Thracia. Seliph isn’t interested until he’s convinced. Lewyn also gets on our nuts, soon, in the next conversation actually, to quit dithering around and get to Grannvale ASAP (but still finish crushing Thracia), because the reincarnation of Loptyr is imminent.

Red is the path Lewyn takes us on to stop the reincarnation of Loptyr. Black is a proposed alternative that would have followed us getting every single holy weapon we can get our hands on except the Book of Naga (which is a fluke), Tyrfing (Lewyn doesn’t know where it is), and Gae Bolg (pretty sure Lewyn doesn't know where it is). Even, say, if Travant were to never agree to a ceasefire (there’s really no reason he wouldn’t, but for the sake of argument), why don’t they swing back up to Darna and invade Grannvale directly? There’s no reason to invade Miletos, which we’re going to do, and liberate it before going there. Our plot powerup we get there is strictly incidental. Our only reason to go there is to save the kids taken from Manster ...which is a noble enough motive when you’re not in a time crunch facing the dark god rising.

His second paragraph is also totally at odds with the things he’s been saying, which to be honest are at odds with one another fairly often. Our mission, now, is to remove Thracia’s royal family from power. Not stop Travant’s aggression, not provide for the shittiest third-world country in the world, none of that shit will do for Lewyn. It’s kill Travant and his family or die trying. This is more of how Genealogy stamps its feet and insists repeatedly that Travant is a villain, guys – Lewyn switches straight from “hey he’s doing these things for a pretty good reason” to “bbbbbut he’s opposed to us, gotta drop him” in one conversation. We can’t have a conversation with or about Travant that’s just about how he’s got a point – if it’s with Altenna, they have to remind us he’s also a huge dick, if it’s with Lewyn, they have to remind us that he’s also the villain please hate him. Partially the fault of the translation, sure, but it’s all there in the original for what I’ve checked. Poor Travant, he deserves to be in a better-written game.

Next time: believe it or not, for the first and only time in Genealogy of the Holy War, despite the game’s repeated insistence to the contrary, a populace regards us as a flagrant aggressor when we’re flagrantly invading. Mostly. The game also kind of fucks it up, natch. Peace.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Integrity

[Specta]

u can't be surprised that lewyn walks like he talks

he's a big fan of the pointlessly drawn out path

[Integrity]

u can't be surprised that lewyn walks like he talks

he's a big fan of the pointlessly drawn out path

wow.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Integrity

[Psych]

also thracia 776 doesn't technically end until you seize manster in chapter 8, conversations in the later chapters imply leaf+nanna+fin+mysteriously disappearing fe5 units are all clearing out manster while celice kills blume and captures conote

and then sety takes it to protect idfk

I do like how they actually have a village where the starting fe5 chapter is, although that's more hindsight i suspect

also yeah gen 2 is kind of drawn out and doesn't need to go to thracia but if you went from chapter 7 to the granbell, blume and the empire is still alive so you guys gotta wipe him out and then trabant attacks so you'd have to do chapter 8 and then get a truce with trabant which he apparently doesn't want at all

which is amazing cause the empire still sends troops in chapter 9 for no apparently reason considering they've lost all footholds on the peninsula

[SB.]

I just read Ishtar's upcoming dialogue and what the fuck.

[Integrity]

I just read Ishtar's upcoming dialogue and what the fuck.

yep

this is a popular character, sweet nephew

[Parrhesia]

yep

this is a popular character, sweet nephew

i genuinely recall defending ishtar once because the received wisdom about fe4 being well-written and deep is as powerful as it is fucking wrong

(it was around 2009)

[Integrity]

also thracia 776 doesn't technically end until you seize manster in chapter 8, conversations in the later chapters imply leaf+nanna+fin+mysteriously disappearing fe5 units are all clearing out manster while celice kills blume and captures conote

and then sety takes it to protect idfk

I do like how they actually have a village where the starting fe5 chapter is, although that's more hindsight i suspect

also yeah gen 2 is kind of drawn out and doesn't need to go to thracia but if you went from chapter 7 to the granbell, blume and the empire is still alive so you guys gotta wipe him out and then trabant attacks so you'd have to do chapter 8 and then get a truce with trabant which he apparently doesn't want at all

which is amazing cause the empire still sends troops in chapter 9 for no apparently reason considering they've lost all footholds on the peninsula

but then after taking thracia down you can still walk back up to darna which is both shorter and in friendly territory before sallying out to belhalla instead of taking all of miletos

except for that tyrfing happens to be there, that is

EDIT: it's like a crusader kings 2 war: "well if i occupy his capital he'll surrender all occupied territory to me so i have to occupy all his territory BEFORE attacking the capital"

Edited July 11, 2016 by Integrity

[SB.]

ishtar makes eldigan looks well written

let that sink in

[Miacis]

I did remember that Ishtar playing along to Julius was iffy and figured it was a dark god mind-control thing. But then I re-read the next dialogues she has and uh... uuuuhhhhh.....

I figure the reason we can't just shortcut at Darna is because the Yied border would be where the Empire's defenses are at their strongest, so we have to sneak our way around? But since Grannvale never made a move to threaten the Liberation Army back in Darna, and their entire south portion is full of legendary weapon wielders, the message doesn't QUITE come across the way they intended it to.

I do like how they actually have a village where the starting fe5 chapter is, although that's more hindsight i suspect

Close. Fiana is farther south on a small peninsula with nothing of note in FE4. The village corresponds with the location of the Gate of Kelves (Ch3, where Leif gets captured).

I made this old thing a few years ago, superimposing Leif's movements in FE5 to the equivalent FE4 maps, and it's surprisingly accurate and sensible!

The only sketchy parts are Noel Canyon (the Great River starts farther down in FE5), The Stronghold (Leif should be arriving from the north, not the south) and Manster's exact position;

Edited July 11, 2016 by Miacis

[Integrity]

I figure the reason we can't just shortcut at Darna is because the Yied border would be where the Empire's defenses are at their strongest, so we have to sneak our way around? But since Grannvale never made a move to threaten the Liberation Army back in Darna, and their entire south portion is full of legendary weapon wielders, the message doesn't QUITE come across the way they intended it to.

you'd reckon so, and i'd do the same logically, but all of grannvale's elite knight corps are on the path we take through grannvale and a substantial portion of their forces are in miletos since it was recently subjugated (iirc)

also on reflection the empire has no reason to have defenses anywhere near darna - darna, connaught, alster, etc. were all held by blume, the lord of freege, a grannvalean dude.

EDIT: if anything, the yied border guard was blume's dudes we slaughtered around ishtor and around leinster

Edited July 12, 2016 by Integrity

[Psych]

maybe the desert was too treacherous to cross with an entire army

that doesn't exactly sound easy