Jedi Guesstimates a Smash 4 tier list

[Jedi]

Now as you know, I'm a semi competitive player in Smash 4, i'm no where near pro level yet, but I decided to have some fun with a list maker, and put my opinions with some general consistences I see in pro opinions. Disagreement is heavily likely, but I'd like to use this to encourage discussion more than anything, we've seen pretty much all of these characters make some top level game/play etc, so Smash 4 is alot more varied than say Melee, when it comes to character success, and I know i'm gonna get quite a few colorful comments, such as why is Lucas so low when his stuff was buffed so high!? Well... I haven't really seen too much of that or heard much of it, like he's still pretty solid (I fought one at BW once, who combo'd me around alot), but the lack of anything I've seen or heard of him, shows that lower placing.

Note, I'm overly harsh on characters I like using alot but aren't up to snuff in my opinion (See Shulk and Roy)

PKL, Knife, have at it if you see this, heck anyone else, most of you are way more knowledgable than me.

[Draco]

You got most of it down but I would put Roy, Lucas, Kirby, and Puff higher

Pacman, Wiifit, Samus, Dong, Wario Pits, and Robin lower

I feel like Marth should be a lot higher than Lucina, and I feel like Roy is better than marth

Pretty good overall tho

[Anacybele]

Yeah, Roy isn't THAT bad. Marth and Lucina ought to be lower, they're not that good.

Luigi should be higher too. He got nerfed, but not THAT much, geezus. And where are the Mii fighters? This looks good enough to me otherwise.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Anacybele

[Comet]

roy can't approach or kill and has a terrible recovery. i think charizard is in f tier. i think villager and meta knight are a tier, and that lucario is c tier. i also have problems with thinking of how luigi is better than yoshi (though yoshi has no results...) and megaman.

[Jedi]

Roy is my favorite to use of the FE characters (And someone I wanted to main so much but still use), but he lacks.

A. A good approach

B. A good kill setup

C. Good shield punishes

D. A solid offstage game

E. Any sort of good way to "get in" other than like Dash Dance fake outs

F. He lacks almost any safe moves

Believe me, my style of play (heavily aggro) fits like a glove with Roy's style of up close and semi grabby, but he lacks the fundamental tools he needs to do well with that kit.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Jedi

[Anacybele]

Oh, I see. I just remembered a lot of people saying he was good and I had some trouble against him myself.

But Jedi, you still didn't answer my question about the Mii fighters. :P They're not in your list and all the other tier lists list them.

[Nym]

Oh, I see. I just remembered a lot of people saying he was good and I had some trouble against him myself.

But Jedi, you still didn't answer my question about the Mii fighters. :P They're not in your list and all the other tier lists list them.

That probably because Mii fighters are customs characters, which means they can either be god tier or really bad depending of what you give them for equipments or specials.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Nym

[riariadne]

Ganondorf is pretty underrated.

Let's not get anything unclear here- he's not a great character. But his current positioning at the last spot of E tier puts him only above King Dedede and Jigglypuff. In reality I think he should be somewhere in D tier, around Samus.

His weaknesses are obvious, so let's clear those out of the way first. Ganondorf is among the slowest characters, in terms of both movement and many of his attacks. His recovery is abysmal. Flame Choke snapping ledge can be useful for short distances, but Wizard's Foot hasn't refreshed jump since melee, and Dark Dive is a horrible move. It's significantly better with customs since Wizard's Dropkick and Dark Fists are both huge improvements over his default downspec/ upspec respectively, but that's irrelevant. He's heavy, which makes him easy to combo or juggle, though at least it means he isn't always sent as far to recover with. His grab game is uninspiring. Down throw has mediocre follows ups at some low percents, and Flame Choke has some tech-chase potential, but the rest of his throws are not useful.

However, Ganondorf has real strengths. His KO potential is immense, and he has plenty of ways to score easy stocks, be it his aerials, mighty smashes, or even his f-tilt, which is relatively quick for a move of its power. His up-smash is probably his best smash attack as it has surprisingly fast startup and almost no endlag. It can hit opponents on many stage platforms with safety. Enemies on the ledge without invincibility can be hit by a lot of Ganondorf's attacks, like down-tilt on all characters and down-angled fsmash on many characters.

His aerials are solid. Nair got serious buffs and is a real option. Fair isn't the fastest, but is very strong and a good option both for general damage and KOing, and bair is typically even better. Uair is very quick and deals a good amount of damage. Dair was nerfed badly from Brawl, but still has some uses, and a spike with it is basically instant death.

His approach options are okay, though not great. Most of said options aren't that good by themselves, but he has enough of them that he has a level of variety that it's reasonable. His dash attack was buffed recently, as was Wizard's Foot, though Wizard's Foot is pretty unsafe. Nair is alright at approaching too. His dash grab sucks, but Flame Choke does a good job at compensating, even without guaranteed followups like it used to have. The end result is his approach is pretty medium, but it's better than a bottom-3 character approach.

He has good results. Results aren't everything, but I feel like these just don't speak to him being a bottom 3 character- he is in the upper half of all characters for them. I think it's because Ganondorf has apparent weaknesses that are easy to point out he gets listed very low in theory, but then in practice he isn't as easy to combat as this on-paper listing would imply. Even with these results he is probably one of the weaker characters in the game, but his current placement doesn't do justice to his strengths.

Part of this is because Ganondorf's punishes are huge. People make mistakes. This is hard to factor into theorycrafting, but it is also a true statement, and Ganondorf capitalizes on errors extremely well. It is also likely that are likely unfamiliarity with the matchup is a part of his success, but he has more tools than he's usually given credit for too.

Again, I don't think he's great, but I think his current spot is something of a disservice.

[Jedi]

Oh, I see. I just remembered a lot of people saying he was good and I had some trouble against him myself.

But Jedi, you still didn't answer my question about the Mii fighters. :P They're not in your list and all the other tier lists list them.

Well opinions bounced around ^^;

Also I'm 100% unsure of the mii fighters so I didn't want to place them at this point in time.

Ganondorf is pretty underrated.

Let's not get anything unclear here- he's not a great character. But his current positioning at the last spot of E tier puts him only above King Dedede and Jigglypuff. In reality I think he should be somewhere in D tier, around Samus.

His weaknesses are obvious, so let's clear those out of the way first. Ganondorf is among the slowest characters, in terms of both movement and many of his attacks. His recovery is abysmal. Flame Choke snapping ledge can be useful for short distances, but Wizard's Foot hasn't refreshed jump since melee, and Dark Dive is a horrible move. It's significantly better with customs since Wizard's Dropkick and Dark Fists are both huge improvements over his default downspec/ upspec respectively, but that's irrelevant. He's heavy, which makes him easy to combo or juggle, though at least it means he isn't always sent as far to recover with. His grab game is uninspiring. Down throw has mediocre follows ups at some low percents, and Flame Choke has some tech-chase potential, but the rest of his throws are not useful.

However, Ganondorf has real strengths. His KO potential is immense, and he has plenty of ways to score easy stocks, be it his aerials, mighty smashes, or even his f-tilt, which is relatively quick for a move of its power. His up-smash is probably his best smash attack as it has surprisingly fast startup and almost no endlag. It can hit opponents on many stage platforms with safety. Enemies on the ledge without invincibility can be hit by a lot of Ganondorf's attacks, like down-tilt on all characters and down-angled fsmash on many characters.

His aerials are solid. Nair got serious buffs and is a real option. Fair isn't the fastest, but is very strong and a good option both for general damage and KOing, and bair is typically even better. Uair is very quick and deals a good amount of damage. Dair was nerfed badly from Brawl, but still has some uses, and a spike with it is basically instant death.

His approach options are okay, though not great. Most of said options aren't that good by themselves, but he has enough of them that he has a level of variety that it's reasonable. His dash attack was buffed recently, as was Wizard's Foot, though Wizard's Foot is pretty unsafe. Nair is alright at approaching too. His dash grab sucks, but Flame Choke does a good job at compensating, even without guaranteed followups like it used to have. The end result is his approach is pretty medium, but it's better than a bottom-3 character approach.

He has good results. Results aren't everything, but I feel like these just don't speak to him being a bottom 3 character- he is in the upper half of all characters for them. I think it's because Ganondorf has apparent weaknesses that are easy to point out he gets listed very low in theory, but then in practice he isn't as easy to combat as this on-paper listing would imply. Even with these results he is probably one of the weaker characters in the game, but his current placement doesn't do justice to his strengths.

Part of this is because Ganondorf's punishes are huge. People make mistakes. This is hard to factor into theorycrafting, but it is also a true statement, and Ganondorf capitalizes on errors extremely well. It is also likely that are likely unfamiliarity with the matchup is a part of his success, but he has more tools than he's usually given credit for too.

Again, I don't think he's great, but I think his current spot is something of a disservice.

You know, I agree with pretty much everything you said, and I also get punished in particular by Dorf, black wolf here also has quite a number of Ganondorfs, but they all insist he isn't that great, and such. I actually had alot of trouble coming up with the bottom half of this list, so I could revise it in the future, I actually originally had Dorf a bit higher, but people disagreed with it.

The punishes and his pure insane power can't be simply ignored, and the fact that he has a decent command grab.

[Alex95]

As I usually say, it's not the character, but the skill of the player.

For example, from my experience, Jigglypuff is sooooo not an F tier and Bayonetta's more of a B.

Link, Ike, and Pit are my S tier, and I've beaten and been beaten by several Jigglypuffs, C. Falcons, Sheiks, and anyone considered a "good" tier.

Considering just the skills of the characters, though, Marth and Jigglypuff could be a tier or so higher. They both have good ground and arieal games. I know this list is made from personal experiences, but lists like these are normally done between comparring skills of multiple characters and players alike.

[Knife]

Your list is pretty accurate. I only look at S through part of B tier (1-20) because of lack of exposure and volatility, after Captain Falcon I can see lots of interchangeability (I'd personally put Peach after Falcon then Greninja after Peach). As for your top 20, I agree with it for the most part except I would put Diddy at 3rd (he just had an amazing weekend and he doesn't lose to anyone below him except maybe Mario Bros./Fox). Move Sheik behind Diddy (only top level Sheik's have been able to win with her, mid-high level Sheiks winning are rare now, still doing better than ZSS tho) and move Cloud behind Mario (Cloud's results have fallen off at higher rankings while Mario/Fox get better placings overall) and move Sonic behind Cloud (for similar reasons).

1. Bayo (loses to no one, evenish with Rosa/Diddy/Sheik/Sonic/few zoners)

2. Rosa (loses to Cloud/MK/ZSS/some swordies)

3. Diddy (loses to Rosa/Mario/Fox/Luigi)

4. Sheik (loses to Diddy/Mario/Lucario)

5. ZSS (loses to Bayo/Diddy/Greninja)

6. Fox (loses to Bayo/Rosa/Sheik/Mario/Cloud/Luigi/Kirby)

7. Mario (loses to Bayo/Rosa/Cloud)

8. Cloud (loses to Bayo/Diddy/Sheik)

9. Sonic (loses to Rosa/Fox/Cloud/Lucario)

10. Ryu (loses to Bayo/Sonic/Pikachu/some zoners most notably Mega Man)

This game has pretty good balance when each and every character in top 10 is scary. Fox is kinda the odd man out among the top tiers with a bunch of bad/suspect MUs, but yet he still does very well results wise and doesn't lose any matchups that hard.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Knife

[Anacybele]

Also I'm 100% unsure of the mii fighters so I didn't want to place them at this point in time.

Ah, that's fair. :)

I can give you some help there. Mii Swordfigher is considered the worst by a long shot and is often put close to the bottom of the list. Mii Brawler is supposed to be pretty decent and I can see why. All the Mii Brawlers I've fought were rather painful. Mii Gunner is so-so as far as I've seen and put between the two on the list.

There's a reason I've been begging for Mii Swordfighter buffs. I AM a Mii Swordfighter mainer and I keep seeing him/her at the bottom of tier lists. :(

[Jedi]

Ah, that's fair. :)

I can give you some help there. Mii Swordfigher is considered the worst by a long shot and is often put close to the bottom of the list. Mii Brawler is supposed to be pretty decent and I can see why. All the Mii Brawlers I've fought were rather painful. Mii Gunner is so-so as far as I've seen and put between the two on the list.

There's a reason I've been begging for Mii Swordfighter buffs. I AM a Mii Swordfighter mainer and I keep seeing him/her at the bottom of tier lists. :(

I'll keep that in mind thanks. Well hey everyone has that character they really really want buffed, so keep hoping.

Your list is pretty accurate. I only look at S through part of B tier (1-20) because of lack of exposure and volatility, after Captain Falcon I can see lots of interchangeability (I'd personally put Peach after Falcon then Greninja after Peach). As for your top 20, I agree with it for the most part except I would put Diddy at 3rd (he just had an amazing weekend and he doesn't lose to anyone below him except maybe Mario Bros./Fox). Move Sheik behind Diddy (only top level Sheik's have been able to win with her, mid-high level Sheiks winning are rare now, still doing better than ZSS tho) and move Cloud behind Mario (Cloud's results have fallen off at higher rankings while Mario/Fox get better placings overall) and move Sonic behind Cloud (for similar reasons).

1. Bayo (loses to no one, evenish with Rosa/Diddy/Sheik/Sonic/few zoners)

2. Rosa (loses to Cloud/MK/ZSS/some swordies)

3. Diddy (loses to Rosa/Mario/Fox/Luigi)

4. Sheik (loses to Diddy/Mario/Lucario)

5. ZSS (loses to Bayo/Diddy/Greninja)

6. Fox (loses to Bayo/Rosa/Sheik/Mario/Cloud/Luigi/Kirby)

7. Mario (loses to Bayo/Rosa/Cloud)

8. Cloud (loses to Bayo/Diddy/Sheik)

9. Sonic (loses to Rosa/Fox/Cloud/Lucario)

10. Ryu (loses to Bayo/Sonic/Pikachu/some zoners most notably Mega Man)

This game has pretty good balance when each and every character in top 10 is scary. Fox is kinda the odd man out among the top tiers with a bunch of bad/suspect MUs, but yet he still does very well results wise and doesn't lose any matchups that hard.

I'm honestly surprised you mostly agree with me ^^; its kinda cool to be honest.

I can see your points, Diddy sure has proven himself again and again despite nerfs eh?

[Terrador]

So Jed, very specifically, what are your parameters for this tier list? I'd like to offer my thoughts, but as someone who Really Isn't Great I'd like to know exactly what your criteria are.

[Jedi]

So Jed, very specifically, what are your parameters for this tier list? I'd like to offer my thoughts, but as someone who Really Isn't Great I'd like to know exactly what your criteria are.

Parameters is just general "Is this character good, worse than others, etc" I didn't put extreme thought into that tbh.

Generally people in the same bar are on a similar level.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Jedi

[euklyd]

So Jed, very specifically, what are your parameters for this tier list? I'd like to offer my thoughts, but as someone who Really Isn't Great I'd like to know exactly what your criteria are.

Jedi Guesstimates a Smash 4 tier list

also I agree with rein ganon should be higher. full explanation in spoiler:

Before I get into what I mean, allow me to first put out there that I have been playing for years, and I have watched MANY videos of the tournament masters.

My brother and I found out, through years of play, literally EVERY advanced technique in the game, except the perfect pivot, which we stumbled upon, but wrote off as simply hilarious. I was surprised to find that all the wacky observations we have encountered and adapted are actually defined in the glossary in the sticky topic above! Three of the particularly surprising terms that I could not believe had been widely known and utilized were the Phantom Hit (I just thought I had a glitchy game) and that effect where recovering at the right time from attacks that sent you flying results in an upward boost if you jump out/air dodge/whatever early enough (I cannot remember what it was called in the sticky), and the platform cancel.

Now, I have been using Ganondorf against my brother lately, and he cannot seem to beat me. We think we know why, and we think it puts Ganon at the top of the tiers. I will be brief. Ganondorf has his air forward. We call it 'The Punch.' It has that special hitbox like a sword, hence it goes right through anything except an attack with that same type of hitbox. It does 17% max, is relatively fast executing, has basically instant recovery on a barrier cancel, and is quite massive, killing at rather low percentages.

If he misses, he can just do his A punch if the opponent tries to retaliate, or shield/roll. I am telling you, Ganondorf is a crazy meat mountain who crushes bones with many attacks doing 15+%, survives to insane damages thanks to his weight, and has ridiculous horizontal recovery (Double Jump, Ganondorf Kick Down B, GOES SUPER FAST, ARE YOU SERIOUS, Up B).

Next, check his roll. It goes like half screen. It makes him rather fast, nearly eliminating his speed problem on the ground, and a great character when it comes to the defensive game. It pretty much eliminates the need for his perfect pivot, which, with Ganondorf, who needs to do most of his attacking from hops, is pretty much useless already unless you are looking to smash attack. Pivot-smashing, however, in my opinion, is also a bad idea, because, in the time and damage it takes you to actually land a smash, you could have just used The Punch and killed you opponent by then.

Even though he has to fight mostly in the air, 3 of his 4 air attacks are pretty fast, and are quite massive. A major advantage he has is that nearly all his attacks move the opponent considerably, and can topple him from 0%, so his opponent gets little to no counterattack opportunity.

The only explanation I can find for why he is low on the tiers is that no one has used him seriously. I think he really keeps up, if not tops, the top tier characters.

I really do not like to simply shoot my mouth, and I am not one who thinks it right to shower a character in encomium, and never actually prove anything. Is there actual online for this somewhere (For Glory does not count), or is that simply wishful thinking? If not, please do not yell at me and stuff until you at least check out The Punch. Goes right through projectiles, goes right through attacks, goes right through faces. Please just give Ganondorf another shot and tell me what you thnk.

Final Comment: People have a tendency to think that posts from newcomers to a board but veterans of its respective game are saying they are better than everyone else, regardles of what the post actually says. Please note that I did not say 'I am better than you' or 'Ganon is better than Bayonetta.' I said, essentially: 'Ganon seems to be great. These are his strengths. He may top Bayonetta. Check him out and see if you agree.' I will say, however, that I am a full master of Ganondorf.

Please give Ganondorf a second look before responding so you know where I am coming from!

I legit expected a wall about The Punch when I saw Rein's massive wall

tbh I think the list is super good, although like Knife I stopped paying attention halfway through b/c lack of data

I'd split A up more, as a lot of A tier has rather better results than other A characters. Mac might also want to move up, since he's probably a pretty viable pocket for some matchups.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Euklyd

[Jedi]

tbh I think the list is super good, although like Knife I stopped paying attention halfway through b/c lack of data

I'd split A up more, as a lot of A tier has rather better results than other A characters. Mac might also want to move up, since he's probably a pretty viable pocket for some matchups.

I suppose yeah, also I always did feel Mac has some really good MU's (I personally feel he can actually put up with a fair bit of Sonic's shenanigans better than some of the top tier threats, but one error and Sonic just destroys him) its just tough for him to deal with quite a number of other people, he's a character of such extremes its really difficult to place him in general.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Jedi

[shadowofchaos]

Yo, what is "MUs" in this context? I am so used to defining it as "My Unit" (Robin/Corrin)

Matchups?

Edited May 9, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Shin]

Yo, what is "MUs" in this context? I am so used to defining it as "My Unit" (Robin/Corrin)

Matchups?

Either match ups or massively ugly.

I'd disagree with Ganon being much higher. In low level play people make loads of mistakes, so he can punish them. However, beyond that, his moves are either so telegraphed or slow that almost anyone can see it coming or simply react faster than it. There's not much space between a lot of the losers at the bottom, but Ganon has so few options and such bad mobility that I don't think he's on par with anyone in Jedi's D tier.

[Elieson]

Holy shit Link below Samus? Jedi what are you thinking here?? Link's projectile game slaughters Samus's, and Hylian Shield limits Samus to easily tamable zair approaches or nair approaches which don't really combo into anything.

Also why isn't King Dedede SS tier? He's perfect

[Jedi]

Holy shit Link below Samus? Jedi what are you thinking here?? Link's projectile game slaughters Samus's, and Hylian Shield limits Samus to easily tamable zair approaches or nair approaches which don't really combo into anything.

Also why isn't King Dedede SS tier? He's perfect

Samus doesn't have nearly as many mobility issues, and Links projectiles outside of his bombs aren't really that threatening.

[euklyd]

Holy shit Link below Samus? Jedi what are you thinking here?? Link's projectile game slaughters Samus's, and Hylian Shield limits Samus to easily tamable zair approaches or nair approaches which don't really combo into anything.

the Link/Samus MU has very, very little to do with the placings of either character, since both are super low tiers

both are low enough that their precise placing is irrelevant anyways

[Zera]

Why is Sheik still top tier after her nerf? And why is Dedede bottom?

[Terrador]

Alrighty, let me get in on this if we're not being super specific; I'm going primarily by "Estimated strength of the kit at top level, but when results contradict theory results take precedence". Seems similar to what you're doing, so hi-ho!

Sheik vs. Rosa: General wisdom says she loses zero matchups before Bayonetta, and probably has the best tournament results of any character ever. I understand the logic of putting Bayo over her, but Rosa? Not to mention that Sheik carries how many top 10-15 players (not to say that they aren't extraordinary already)? At least four? Whereas Rosa's representation at that tier of play is mostly Dabuz. Don't get me wrong, I hate Rosa with a burning passion and think her design is insane, but Sheik has been demonstrated to just have too versatile of a kit to deny.

Diddy: I think you're overrating him a bit. I think he's top 10 still but he does have his struggles; namely, you can just disrespect fair/bair once you get to 120 or so (I mean, depends on the stage, character, rage, etc., but dtilt => usmash and uthrow => uair kill percents) and he starts having a lot of trouble actually sealing the deal, requiring an outright punish or callout instead of a mixup/conversion off a spacing tool.

Mewtwo: Why is he so high...? There have been some results lately, but is there some like "someone beat Nairo at a major to take 2nd" shit I'm missing? His offense is nuts but he's kinda combo food and kinda gets chewed up by block as a rule. Most every top- or high-tier in this game has some serious mileage off calling out an opponent's block (or else is just UTTERLY RIDICULOUS), and I don't see other of those elements out of Mewtwo.

Peach could in theory be higher, but so few people use her (especially in the US) that I understand why she's in C.

E: How can you guys not tell Elie's joshing, I thought you both knew he's at least decent (roughly on my level afaik; maybe not super knowledgeable or skillful but doesn't talk out his ass)

Edited May 9, 2016 by Terrador

[General Horace]

Mewtwo won a pretty huge tournament last month (pretty much every big name but ZeRo was there).