Jedi Guesstimates a Smash 4 tier list

[Ema Skye]

That huge tournament Mewtwo won was a national too.

Mewtwo, Diddy, Sheik and ZSS are the only characters to have won a national.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Squid Lord Doof

[Knife]

Alrighty, let me get in on this if we're not being super specific; I'm going primarily by "Estimated strength of the kit at top level, but when results contradict theory results take precedence". Seems similar to what you're doing, so hi-ho!

Sheik vs. Rosa: General wisdom says she loses zero matchups before Bayonetta, and probably has the best tournament results of any character ever. I understand the logic of putting Bayo over her, but Rosa? Not to mention that Sheik carries how many top 10-15 players (not to say that they aren't extraordinary already)? At least four? Whereas Rosa's representation at that tier of play is mostly Dabuz. Don't get me wrong, I hate Rosa with a burning passion and think her design is insane, but Sheik has been demonstrated to just have too versatile of a kit to deny.

Diddy: I think you're overrating him a bit. I think he's top 10 still but he does have his struggles; namely, you can just disrespect fair/bair once you get to 120 or so (I mean, depends on the stage, character, rage, etc., but dtilt => usmash and uthrow => uair kill percents) and he starts having a lot of trouble actually sealing the deal, requiring an outright punish or callout instead of a mixup/conversion off a spacing tool.

Mewtwo: Why is he so high...? There have been some results lately, but is there some like "someone beat Nairo at a major to take 2nd" shit I'm missing? His offense is nuts but he's kinda combo food and kinda gets chewed up by block as a rule. Most every top- or high-tier in this game has some serious mileage off calling out an opponent's block (or else is just UTTERLY RIDICULOUS), and I don't see other of those elements out of Mewtwo.

Peach could in theory be higher, but so few people use her (especially in the US) that I understand why she's in C.

E: How can you guys not tell Elie's joshing, I thought you both knew he's at least decent (roughly on my level afaik; maybe not super knowledgeable or skillful but doesn't talk out his ass)

What general wisdom? She definitely loses a few MUs as of post patch. Most notably Diddy, with Zinoto beating Void at least twice since the latest patch. She is also not as polarizing as Rosalina post patch.

Diddy is very good in this latest patch. He arguably has tools to win most MUs and has very very strong results at the mid level and at the top level (Zinoto).

Can't comment on Mewtwo, his placement is very wavy for now.

[Elieson]

E: How can you guys not tell Elie's joshing, I thought you both knew he's at least decent (roughly on my level afaik; maybe not super knowledgeable or skillful but doesn't talk out his ass)

I was kind of being serious, since I thought this was a serious attempt at a tier list. I don't consider my expertise with Samus to be rivaling that of the gods but considering my primary sparring partner is a Link main and I for just about ever was a Samus main before going full Mac, i feel it's worth bringing up. Jedi doesn't have much experience fighting Samus's, and i'm relatively certain he hasn't been one, so he's looking at numbers.

Within the matchup, I just don't see Samus toppling Link on a typical day, since Boomerang and Arrow spam are far more efficient (Rang has longer field time and controllable angles, Arrow speed when charged is fast as heck and nullifies anything but a fully prepped Charge Shot), and has the Mario style Nair that just plops his leg out and smacks approaches. He's got a better combogame with early% Dthrow->Utilt.

If you're talking about Bombs vs Bombs, Samus's bomb is niche use for a bit of shield pressure and a recovery tool that is only useful for the move itself rather than the bomb and well, isn't mobile.

But I mean above all else, Hylian Shield > No Hylian Shield, and more easy to pull off kill moves like an Fsmash that doesn't have a sourspot and a U smash that doesn't miss Pikachus that are simply standing next to you,

[General Horace]

Samus has a much better combo game than Link imo.

[Jedi]

Link has tons of KO potential and setups, but his general issues remain that he's super easy to combo, slow, can't deal with pressure so well, Samus has a number of GET OFF ME options and she's floaty making her harder to combo, they are close to each other (They both have good MU's with like say Luigi, because of how they work), and that low it doesn't matter, generally people I put in the same letter are roughly in the same league keep in mind.

Also Mewtwo won Pound, as many people stated, he's one of the only characters to win a major.

Now if people think i'm being unfair because I don't like using certain peeps. Then get a load of this

I'm a bit more generous in a number of aspects

Edited May 10, 2016 by Jedi

[Elieson]

Link has tons of KO potential and setups, but his general issues remain that he's super easy to combo, slow, can't deal with pressure so well, Samus has a number of GET OFF ME options and she's floaty making her harder to combo, they are close to each other (They both have good MU's with like say Luigi, because of how they work), and that low it doesn't matter, generally people I put in the same letter are roughly in the same league keep in mind.

I'm a bit more generous in a number of aspects

I guess Samus is harder to Combo, but if it's Kill or Be Killed, Link's going to have the edge. I love my bae and her Power Suit but this game doesn't :(

I'm amazed that you don't think you can Little Mac on a fundamental level. He's basically the guy you turn to, to push your fundamentals, as you have such a limited moveset to work with unless you reach the "master" level. That, and true hero of hyrule, Mii Swordfighter.

...You like WFT?

[Jedi]

I guess Samus is harder to Combo, but if it's Kill or Be Killed, Link's going to have the edge. I love my bae and her Power Suit but this game doesn't :(

I'm amazed that you don't think you can Little Mac on a fundamental level. He's basically the guy you turn to, to push your fundamentals, as you have such a limited moveset to work with unless you reach the "master" level. That, and true hero of hyrule, Mii Swordfighter.

...You like WFT?

I guess in that particular match up perhaps.

its because his lack of an air game, it makes it really difficult for me to deal with anything, because it removes so many options from me.

Yeah I had fun with her on FG some months back and I use her every now and again since.

[Elieson]

I guess in that particular match up perhaps.

its because his lack of an air game, it makes it really difficult for me to deal with anything, because it removes so many options from me.

Yeah I had fun with her on FG some months back and I use her every now and again since.

Link has an air game. That Uair and Dair are ferocious for people that can't easily counter (limited to like, Rosaluma and Corrin and a few others). Zair makes solid approaches. Also, solid Nair with that stanky leg.

Samus's Zair and Uair are probably among her best standard moves. Her dair is pretty atrocious. Nair is eh

Their Fairs and Bairs are about on par with usability IMO.

Takes practice to get timing down.

I feel like the only one here who thinks Link > Samus

Also in the world of Low Tiers...why is it that they're unimportant :(

[Knife]

I believe Samus can perform better in the overall meta. She has stuff Link needs in a competitive environment such as OoS options (Screwattack has intangibility starting frame 3 and hits on frame 5), much better jumpsquat (4 frames vs Link's 7 frames) which equates to a better shield/escape game, combo game, much better disadvantage state being a floaty (unless its against MK), slightly better recovery, and more threatening projectile.

She loses out to Link in pure kill power (which is why Ganondorf is so great right?), range, and close combat (though Samus's jab is still a much faster get off me option than Link's being frame 3 vs Link's frame 7 jab). Not to mention Samus has had a lot more success. Samus being bad is a meme though, in all past Smash games Samus has been better than Link and I believe it is still true in this game, largely due to Link's design flaws. For the record though, they are closer than ever in regard to relative viability.

On another topic, I believe Dedede is the worst character. A fast falling heavy (practically a combination begging to be comboed by top tiers) that has trouble killing and landing? I don't really see any character having it worse except possibly Jigglypuff.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Knife

[Anacybele]

You don't know how to use Luigi, Jedi? Well, you're looking at a long-time Luigi main right here! I can help you out! :)

Luigi's greatest strengths lie in his air-game. He has a really good air-game. He also has good grabs, and his d-throw can combo into several other moves. His bad traction makes him fairly combo-proof on the ground as well, because it causes him to slide out of range a lot. Just be careful though, Luigi's bad traction also sometimes leaves him helpless for a moment.

Luigi moves you want to use a lot: Luigi Cyclone, Fireball, forward smash, tilts, up-smash, d-throw, all aerials (especially f-air). Tilts and aerials can often combo, and Luigi can land multiple f-airs in one jump if you use it right. His extra high jump really helps him! Also, Luigi's up-tilt can be repeated a bunch of times on some opponents for some sweet damage.

You also want to use Green Missile sometimes, but don't abuse it, it can easily become predictable. Using it up close is usually best, as you never know when you'll end up with a misfire. This packs a wallop and is a good KO move. It's also one of Luigi's recovery moves.

Fire Jump Punch is his strongest move, but it's hard to land. It takes practice getting this one to come out enough. It also leaves Luigi wide open if it misses. It's best used when your opponent leaves him/herself wide open. It's one of the strongest moves in the game, being even more powerful than Mario's Super Jump Punch!

Really, using Luigi just takes skills with his tilts, throws, and aerials as well as getting around the bad traction. :P

Edited May 10, 2016 by Anacybele

[Zera]

I think Dedede should at least be above Bowser. Bowser's suicide move is glitched and doesn't even work right!

[Comet]

samus kills off the top sooooo well. link has it rough with 7 frames of jumpsquat....

a lot of characters can just jump at link, space away from dair/up air and hit link, then gimp him sonce his recovery is terrible.

luigi has good aerials...but he can't move in the air much. once he's there, it's just nair/air dodge/nothing, so he's nearly a sitting luck. his frame 2 jab and combos are good though.

somewhat related question: does anyone know what sheik or falcon can do to intercept rising tornado? sheik might be able to needle > edge cancel Bouncing Fish/footstool dair, but i haven't tested those yet. her dair might be able to trade with any of the hits too. falcon...could use weak hit up air, dair, or maybe bair? weak knee seems to get outranged whenever a hitbox of tornado is out. depending on how long it lasts, i could see about falcon punch (likely not)?

[Anacybele]

Funny, I do a lot better with Luigi when I have him in the air. On the ground he's more vulnerable because of his bad traction.

[Jedi]

Luigi's just always felt awkward to me, and I suppose thats part of the point. But I don't really think he meshes with how I play haha.