Is Gunter the first pure Jegan we've had since FE6?

[BofaDeezNuts]

As far as I'm aware, anyway, he seems to be, especially in Revelations. I haven't played the Radiant games (can't find any at a decent price), but I'm pretty sure they have an Oifey, too.

[ruadath]

Well Jagen is a Jeigan in FE11... but yeah if you mean that FE7 Marcus, Seth, Titania, and Fred were all Oifeys, I would probably agree with that.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

i think he needs to be around longer to be an jegan.

but he's close enough.

[Dark Sage]

There's Arran if you count FE12.

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

Yes he's like the first pure Jagen to actually have a backstory in Revelation.

IMO, he's possibly the best Jagen since Jagen the first.

[BofaDeezNuts]

i think he needs to be around longer to be an jegan.

but he's close enough.

He's around pretty early in Revelations.

[DarkDestr0yer61]

Not including the remakes, yes.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Don't forget Sothe! In FE10, he's an Oifey too. (Albeit in a different class than usual).

And it should be specified - Rev!Gunther is a Jeigan. CQ!Gunther shows up too late and with too high bases to count, in my opinion. Apart from the remakes, Freddy is the closest we get to a Jeigan, but he has the growths and looks of an Oifey.

[Alastor15243]

I think Frederick counts as a jeigan due to Awakening's leveling system because after a certain point he will always be vastly inferior to everyone else in your army for the same amount of combat training until stats start capping.

[The DanMan]

I think Frederick counts as a jeigan due to Awakening's leveling system because after a certain point he will always be vastly inferior to everyone else in your army for the same amount of combat training until stats start capping.

He's still perfectly usable and has respectable growth rates.

And doesn't FE7 Marcus suck in the growths department? His saving grace is that his bases are just THAT good and help out a ton in early-game LTC.

[Jave]

He's still perfectly usable and has respectable growth rates.

And doesn't FE7 Marcus suck in the growths department? His saving grace is that his bases are just THAT good and help out a ton in early-game LTC.

Marcus' bases and growths are good enough to last him almost the entire game, at least on Normal mode, not sure how long he fares on HHM.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Jave

[Alastor15243]

He's still perfectly usable and has respectable growth rates.

"perfectly usable" is a stretch, and while he has respectable growth rates, his internal level problems mean he's vastly behind others. He's not a jeigan in quite the same way as past jeigans, but I'd argue he's a jeigan in practice on a no-grind run.

Also, what's the cut-off point? How bad do growth rates have to be to qualify as a jeigan? If there's a noticeable drop in performance if you attempt to make them a mainstay of their army, does that qualify, or are we only talking about units with growths so atrocious that getting a six stat level up is an "I should have been in a casino" moment?

Edited June 4, 2016 by Alastor15243

[Ownagepuffs]

As far as Fred is concerned, he actually has some of the best growths in the game and very strong bases to go along with them. It's his internal level that is the problem, but even then he has no issues opening cans of whoop ass until like C17.

Back on topic, FE12 Arran is the last jeigan we've had before Revelation!Gunther

[Alastor15243]

Back on topic, FE12 Arran is the last jeigan we've had before Revelation!Gunther

...What's this about only Revelation!Gunter? I don't know what goes on there, but Gunter has absolutely atrocious growth rates on Conquest too, so surely he counts there.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Alastor15243

[-Cynthia-]

Conquest!Gunter doesn't reappear until C15 which is late for a Jeigan.

[Alastor15243]

Conquest!Gunter doesn't reappear until C15 which is late for a Jeigan.

Doesn't he still count because his entire purpose there is to make that battle possible to win if you for whatever reason have been neglecting both Corrin and Azura?

[Ownagepuffs]

You still have other royals before he joins tho. CQ Gunther is more like Duessel.

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

CQ Gunther is more like Duessel.

Duessel doesn't have crappy growth though. o3o

[Espinosa]

Duessel doesn't have crappy growth though. o3o

It's functionally the same thing though; Duessel doesn't need growths much.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I generally find the distinction between a "true" jagen and an oifey to be mostly not one worth making since it seems more related to how good the units are. (And it means that units who fall in the middle, like Marcus 7 and Frederick, can be classed as either.)

That said yeah, Rev!Gunter is easily the purest execution of the classic Jagen (i.e. hideously bad growths, not just kinda bad like Marcus 7) in a non-remake Fire Emblem in a long time.

Conquest!Gunter is indeed more like Duessel. Duessel may have better growths, but seeing as he's likely to gain like 3-4 levels total even if you use him the rest of the game, his growths are mostly a moot point. (Pent's growths are also pretty bad, and rightly, nobody cares.)

[Renall]

The funny part is due to the experience funneling of the prologue and Rev7 up to that point it's highly likely that Corrin will have better stats than Gunter across the board, so he isn't even good at being a Jagen for one level and gets one more map past that (Mozu Paralogue or Rev8 depending) and is immediately out of the running for deploy slots. If he could still support he might make a case for himself as a Corrin backpack but as it is Rev is pretty lean on slots so he really just might as well not exist. His greatest contribution in Rev7 is probably giving Azura +1 Mov.

He might be the worst Jagen at his job in the entire series. Even setting aside obviously superior "Jagens" like Titania, Seth, Frederick, etc., his comparison to other bad-growths Jagens is kind of unfavorable. OG Jagen has more uses, Shadow Dragon Jagen is way more useful, Dagdar is a capture god and coasts on his ludicrous base HP all game, FE6 Marcus is clutch. So I guess he's fighting with Arran or something? Mystery Arran barely has better bases than Marth. New Mystery Arran is barely better but I imagine benefits at least somewhat from free reclassing. The usual advantage of a Jagen in earlier games is high weapon rank and that doesn't even help Gunter because starting with early Steel/Silver access isn't an advantage in Fates. He doesn't even get a Silver to start and that Steel Lance is just begging to get doubled.

[Thor Odinson]

New Mystery Arran on Lunatic is most definitely more useful than Rev Lunatic Gunther, IMO.

Gunther still got uses in CQ Endgame pairup damage bonus to Corn for 1turn strats and free shelter, but I remember even with how powerful Chris is the way NM is set up, Arran is pretty fucking vital to surviving earlygame while Gunther is largely unnecessary, competing with deploy slots, and largely outclassed by Corn themselves. In my experience I've only had to use Gunther in, well, chapter 2 and 3.

[Espinosa]

Gunter is p helpful in IK Lunatic tbqh. Support, Shelter, flight with 8 mov, and he levels up quickly, which lets him get to the good skills (Lunge, Defence Rally) really quickly. The kind of utility he provides is also the kind that doesn't diminish as enemy stats grow.

[dragonlordsd]

Yeah, I think you're right. I feel like a major change over time has been to flatten out the stats of all the characters, so no one is truly useless. A big part of the Shouzou Kaga games was the fact that some people are just inherently unequal in skill. If someone is the "legendary general," in the older games, chances are they're going to be a step above the "random villager." This gets taken even further when you factor in that the early games didn't even allow promotion.

Without Awakening's level reset abilities, Frederick definitely would have been a pure Jeigan. He actually has lower starting stats than Seth, Titania, or Marcus. This doesn't seem like a big deal until you remember that Awakening had much, much higher stat caps than many of the previous games, so he would have been much worse off, even with good growths. Fortunately, it was possible to fix him, and with level reset, you could really take advantage of his growths.

[Renall]

Gunter is p helpful in IK Lunatic tbqh. Support, Shelter, flight with 8 mov, and he levels up quickly, which lets him get to the good skills (Lunge, Defence Rally) really quickly. The kind of utility he provides is also the kind that doesn't diminish as enemy stats grow.

Blowing a Heart Seal on Gunter seems like a huge waste but I guess you have a point that outside of a Cavalier Talent you're not getting Shelter early in Rev (Silas is late, Peri/Xander is later). Still, that's as marginal a benefit as I can think of and even with his low internal level and technically-promoted status it can be kind of an ordeal to get him levels; I think you're overstating the value of his utility and understating his ridiculous fragility against Lunatic enemies. Still for LTC there's probably a lot to love there with flying + Shelter for Azura shenanigans.